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Thread: E-P1 RAW Processing

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    E-P1 RAW Processing

    I find it very interesting how different the various raw converters render an image. Currently, Bibble Pro Version 5 Beta ( a free trial version is available from there web site), Capture One and LR (using the DNG converter version 5.5). Bibble Pro 5 gives the most dynamic range image pulling clouds from an otherwise washed out sky. I would like to hear what other think. LR after conversion to DNG looks almost identical to the JPGs whereas Bibble Pro looks very different and much better I think. If I get some time I will post some images using each converter so you can see what I mean.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    As promised here are some sample results using BB5, C1 and LR after DNG conversion. There are two shots for each conversion in the following order:
    1. BB5
    2. C1
    3. LR

    What do you think?
    Last edited by barjohn; 2nd October 2009 at 15:40.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member kweide's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    I found this:
    Colorprofile for E-P1 and C1

    Attachment 21151
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    As promised here are some sample results using BB5, C1 and LR after DNG conversion. There are two shots for each conversion in the following order:
    1. BB5
    2. C1
    3. LR

    What do you think?
    You do understand that these are the results of using three different RAW converters, at their default settings, on RAW exposures for cameras for which none of them have a defined camera calibration yet? The results will look different.

    Setting up a camera calibration, then making the appropriate adjustments in all three RAW converters would render the results from all to be very very similar if not identical.

    If one is only going to use a RAW converter at its default settings, it's often more sensible to set up the camera's image processing engine carefully and capture in JPEG maximum resolution/maxlmum quality instead. Reserve RAW capture for those edge cases where JPEG presents insufficient dynamic range and editability for the scene in question. Saves a lot of disk space and time... !

    I capture RAW format exclusively, but I almost never use any RAW conversion application's default settings. I have my own camera calibrations and customized RAW processing presets to get what I want out of my exposures. :-)

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    BB5 and C1 support the E-P1 .orf files and have the E-P1 camera profiles. LR is using the Adobe 5.5 beta DNG converter that supports the E-P1 .orf files. While it may be true that none of these is yet truly optimized for the E-P1 that is not the same thing as saying they don't have an E-P1 camera profile. There is a difference not only in color but in detail that is visible and I have not been able to get the outputs to match from each even after playing with the settings. Also, though I did not use it in these samples, BB5 supports a Noise Ninja plug in and it reduces noise much better than LR or C1.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    The Huelight profile is much better on C1 than the generic E-P1 profile.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    I have to run out and do some errands but later today I will post 100% crops so you can see the difference in the detail rendered.
    V/r John

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    krohmie
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Can you post a SF (superfine JPG) out of the camera for comparison?

    Greetings Thomas

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Yes, I will add that to my next post when I return later today.
    V/r John

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    I appreciate your efforts, but I don't want people to get the wrong idea either. I don't think that there is any way that you can compare 3 raw converters in the way that you are doing. Each raw converter has lots of controls and settings. Mike Hatam can make any well exposed file sing out of Lightroom. Guy Mancuso can do the same with C1. It depends on the familiarity with the software. You can't just spit a photo out of all three and say that this is how it is.

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    I'm still bitter because Aperture doesn't support 2 of my 3 cameras. And likely never will. I'm not sure if I want to get rid of the cameras or Aperture...

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    never say never with Aperture... they added Epson RD-1 support in one of the last updates... I am sure e-p1 will be there soon.

    K

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    There is no dlux4 or lx3 support. Both do lens correction. The ep1 does lens correction with the 17. Seems that might be the criteria for support.

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Bibble Pro v5 beta is looking promising for sharp detail, highlight recovery, noise reduction (integrated NN) and speed... but I wish the colour would match the Olympus Studio standard.

    Here's an image which was severely blown - recovered nicely by Bibble Pro v5 beta.

    E-P1 + mZD 14-42mm kit lens
    1/500s f/5.6 at 42.0mm iso200


    1:1 crop of above.


    Bibble Pro v5 doesn't yet have distortion correction for the E-P1 + kit lenses - when it does, it will be well worth a look.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    never say never with Aperture... they added Epson RD-1 support in one of the last updates... I am sure e-p1 will be there soon.

    K
    This is why I never adopted Aperture. When it was time to chose between it and Lightroom 2 of my 3 cameras weren't supported. Getting camera support on a timely basis is at best unreliable and there is no transparency that it will ever arrive.

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    When I chose Aperture all my cameras were supported. Now I'm only 1 for 3. It might be time to ponder a new workflow as I now have multiple Aperture libraries floating around due to some computer changes. I really need to get everything together onto one mirrored drive then figure out what to do. I have RawDeveloper and C1 (from the DLux4), but I really don't get along with how C1 works. Adobe is kind of like M$-lite so I try to avoid their stuff except for PS and Illustrator (by necessity).

    *sigh* Almost makes me want to buy a film camera.

    Well...almost.

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    When it comes to work flow I still prefer LR because it has integrated print ability. When it comes to color rendition I prefer C1 and I am really starting to like the new BB5, especially when it comes to cleaning up a high ISO file and keeping as much detail as possible. I am still a little miffed that Adobe does not continue to update CS as far as supported cameras go. I purchased CS3 which was not cheap with the idea that it would continue to be usable even after a CS4 or CS5. There is no reason that the plug in converter should only work with the latest version but not with prior versions. New features such as lens distortion correction (barrel & Pin) or a different way to calibrate individual cameras etc. might have justified switching. However, newer camera support is just not one of them to me. As a result I won't buy another one of their products and I will continue to use LR until a better solution arises or they quit adding newer camera support.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Ok. Here are the 100% crops and the SF JPG 100% crops.

    The first image shown below is the JPG.
    Last edited by barjohn; 2nd October 2009 at 15:40.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Next we have BB5 for the same two files.
    Last edited by barjohn; 2nd October 2009 at 15:40.
    V/r John

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Now we have C1 for the same files.
    Last edited by barjohn; 2nd October 2009 at 15:40.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Next we have LR for the same two files.
    Last edited by barjohn; 2nd October 2009 at 15:40.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Finally I took the BB5 file and sharpened it.
    Last edited by barjohn; 2nd October 2009 at 15:40.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    A final note. These were output at 80% and 150dpi. None look as good as they do on my monitor in the application. I'm not sure what the best way to output for the forum. I always seem to get thumbnails rather than larger images. What is the secret?
    V/r John

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    I'm of the school that says "the tools you know best will return the best results". I standardized on Lightroom when it came out after evaluating all the available RAW processors. I like it most, and I get the results I want out of it. I never switch image processing tools unless there is a serious need.

    Consistency and familiarity gives the greatest ability to exploit a given tool.

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I'm of the school that says "the tools you know best will return the best results". I standardized on Lightroom when it came out after evaluating all the available RAW processors. I like it most, and I get the results I want out of it. I never switch image processing tools unless there is a serious need.

    Consistency and familiarity gives the greatest ability to exploit a given tool.
    Well said.

    I've been using Lightroom since version 1 was released and I feel really comfortable with it. What I've started doing recently is going back over some online training and a couple of the Lightroom books to see if there are any tricks or small nuances that I missed in the initial learning phase. Version 2 with the local adjustments has so much more than the original and I can't wait to see what is next in version 3 (no idea when that will be).

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    I went from iPhoto to Aperture a few years back, mostly because I was running into performance issues with a very large iPhoto library. v2 of Aperture was a big step up, and I've been mostly happy until recently. When I got the DLux4 I figured Aperture would get support for it reasonably fast. Wrong. And now the E-P1 isn't supported. And the K7 is supported, but not very well out of the box.

    At some point one needs to reconsider their tools and determine if they need to make a change. I did it with iMovie, moving to FinalCutPro as I needed to do multiple streams. Right now I'm not shooting raw in 2 of my 3 cameras because Aperture can't deal with them. Well, I will occasionally shoot raw as I can use RD but it is a totally different workflow. Aperture is just so damn convenient and I don't have to think much. Thinking makes my head hurt...

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Consistency and familiarity gives the greatest ability to exploit a given tool.
    That goes for cameras too

    Unfortunately, consistency and familiarity won't help when your raw converter doesn't support your latest camera

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    I've been through a lot of RCs starting with the original Canon (awful) and then Chris Breeze created Breezebrowser. Then along came PS7 and the plug in you had to buy--and then lots more. I used C1 for a long time--it dealt better with reds and I was shooting a lot of textiles and furniture. I tried (and bought) RSP later along with C1 (and in the meantime was given Bibble and tried it but never became comfortable with it and haven't used the latest)--and the camera profiles for RSP were quite good. When RSP folks were given the LR beta free I tried it, liked it--and have been using it ever since in combo with PS (it also replaced Imatch for my database, my sometimes use of Qimage and RCs).

    I agree with Terry---the local adjustments in the most recent LR made it much much better and I even started to print from LR. I have heard rumors that LR3 is slated for this year but who knows. Unless i have major issues, its unlikely I will keep trying other RCs anytime soon.

    Diane

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Well said.

    I've been using Lightroom since version 1 was released and I feel really comfortable with it. What I've started doing recently is going back over some online training and a couple of the Lightroom books to see if there are any tricks or small nuances that I missed in the initial learning phase. Version 2 with the local adjustments has so much more than the original and I can't wait to see what is next in version 3 (no idea when that will be).

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    That goes for cameras too
    Unfortunately, consistency and familiarity won't help when your raw converter doesn't support your latest camera
    Very true.

    Another reason I use Lightroom/Camera Raw is that they support every camera I own and have owned. And add the new ones I'm interested in in a very timely way. And Adobe offers DNG Converter and DNG Profile Editor to allow support for new cameras with older versions of the software, and custom camera calibration profiles tailored to my needs.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Hi Godfrey,

    have you seen the sharpness thread over in the bear pit?

    oluv wrote:
    i played again with ACR and it is not that bad. although for higher iso i wouldn't like to use it, because the noise is very irregular.

    but i discovered another problem. i already saw it with capture one. as you say it doesn't officially support G1 raws, but inofficially it does. because the G1 seems to have exactly the same RAW-format as the LX3 (and D-Lux 4). so if you patch the header of your G1 raws and change them to D-Lux 4 files, capture one opens them if they were normal leica files.

    unfortunately the way the lens-distortion correction is implemented is a bit "weak". i don't know if panasonic really thought about what they were doing. but i get much better results if i use an uncorrected raw and correct it with ptlens, than the automatically corrected ACR or C1 raws. today i discovered that ACR is doing exactly the same thing as C1. the distortion correction is not evenly performed over the whole image, but rather concentric areas of the image are stretched. this results in quite inconsistent sharpness, especially if you try to enhance pixel sharpness.
    Here's the post with image samples - it looks like Adobe still have some work to do... as have all the major raw converters to automatically compensate for m4/3rds lens distortion.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

  31. #31
    compositor20
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    sorry fot hihgjacking the thread but does someone have a correct DNG profile for lightroom beta 3 i use yours i think(one that is in a site that has profiles for many olympus cameras ) and sometimes it produces different colours then olympus studio and all of my other profiles created with dng colour profile and dpreview and imaging resources test raw files

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Frankly, Brian, I'm exhausted by all this hobbyist pixel peeping nonsense.

    If the only comments a picture elicits are folderal about noise, resolution, raw conversion, ad nauseam, then the picture probably isn't worth looking at.

  33. #33
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    I'm not surprised Godfrey, my last post on the subject was back in August last year! hope you had a nice Christmas

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    I'm not surprised Godfrey, my last post on the subject was back in August last year! hope you had a nice Christmas
    Time doesn't flow on the internet. Moments can be connected in any sequence.

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Time doesn't flow on the internet. Moments can be connected in any sequence.
    Wow! I'm 28 again
    whopeeeeee

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Wow! I'm 28 again
    whopeeeeee
    And my mom is 29 again ...



    I think I want to become digital in my old age. ;-)

  37. #37
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: E-P1 RAW Processing

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I think I want to become digital in my old age. ;-)
    Hasn't that already happened? (becoming digital I mean )

    Cheers

    Brian

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