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Thread: losing the love?

  1. #1
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    losing the love?

    I have to admit, I'm pondering selling the E-P1. I have this odd relationship going on with it. I bought it specifically because it was a "middle ground" between the DLux4 and Pentax. But I find myself frustrated because it isn't as portable as the DLux4, and doesn't give me the files I can get out of the K20d. I actually love the look of the E-P1 files - I like grain and sharpness. But unlike Goldilocks, sometimes I feel like the middle camera isn't "just right" for me. Maybe it is camera OCD...

    *sigh* I would rhetorically ask, "am I nuts?" but I already know the answer to that

    A few images from last week taken by my g/f (since I'm playing the bass)

    http://nostatic.com/photos/jokb4.jpg

    http://nostatic.com/photos/jokb11.jpg

    http://nostatic.com/photos/jokb15.jpg

    http://nostatic.com/photos/jokb16.jpg

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    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    not sure if i am up to selling just yet... but am struggling to fall in love with the e-p1. My gripes are all ergonomic - the grip is too shallow and there are too many too easily hit buttons on the back.

    we will see... it hasn't been the best of times for me to get to grips with it... Plus Aperture doesn't support the RAW yet

    Happiest results so far were with switching off everything and putting my other halfs 21mm Leica lens and doing f8 and be there

    K

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    Super Moderator Cindy Flood's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinparis View Post
    not sure if i am up to selling just yet... but am struggling to fall in love with the e-p1. ...snip....
    K
    Maybe you shoulda had a G1! (couldn't resist)

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    Re: losing the love?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy Flood View Post
    Maybe you shoulda had a G1! (couldn't resist)
    You can read minds?

  5. #5
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    I have to admit (advertising slogans aside) that the GH1 is interesting from a video perspective. But I'm not sure if the G1 doesn't fall into the "neither fish nor fowl" category.

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    Re: losing the love?

    It interesting topic. When I first got the Pen, I reached for it every time I picked up a camera. I also really wanted to learn it completely. When I was in Iceland, I didn't use it as much as the G1 because I found the G1 much more flexible with the swivel LCD and the EVF.

    I am much happier with the camera controls on the G1 than I am with the Oly. I know I had longer with the Panny than the Oly but I still think the Oly interface is over done. I know people love the control panel on the Oly but the Panny has it as well. However, things like the histogram can't be done with gridlines etc. on the Oly. My way of saying it is too much is mutually exclusive.

    Perhaps I'm also just frustrated that I still can't use my regular workflow with Lightroom.

    While I can be a snob about lenses and still have some of my M lenses, I am digging the 14-140. Small camera with with very flexible lens makes for a great walk around experience. During the day I don't need really fast so the 14-140 plus 20mm f.17 could make an outstanding kit on any m4/3 camera. To round it out the 7-14 is probably the most fun lens I've ever owned. Give me a reasonable 200-400 to go really long and a macro and I would say wow what a fun fun fun! kit to cover anything.

    All that being said, I do like the Pen form factor which bodes well for the GF1 if it indeed has a detachable EVF (best of both worlds).

    Sorry for rambling. Hopefully this will help someone's decision process.
    Last edited by Terry; 23rd August 2009 at 15:49.

  7. #7
    ChrisJ
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    Re: losing the love?

    The only real advantage the E-P1 has over the G1 is the image stabilisation is built into the camera so even your old Leica lens is IS. Everything else is a negative IMHO, you only have a (relatively) low res fixed screen that you can't see in bright sunlight, you can't focus in low light as there is no help light, the lens insists on going through the full range of the lens (slowly) till it decides the focus is still no good, there's nothing to hold onto when using the camera.

    Chris

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    Well, I can see the logic in the GF1 as a matching camera to the GH1... they would make a good pair I think, and as you say Terry, the 7-14 + 14-140 would make a helluva walkabout pair - with the 20mm f1.7 as a perfect prime (hope it's a good lens).

    Also, having the same workflow for both cameras would be much simpler.

    It will be exciting if Panasonic have managed to improve IQ with the GF1 over the GH1.

    Kind Regards

    Brian

  9. #9
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisJ View Post
    The only real advantage the E-P1 has over the G1 is the image stabilisation is built into the camera so even your old Leica lens is IS.
    Chris
    I hear what you say Chris, but it's a completely different style of camera - I say there's room for both - as evidenced by the GF1.

    I'd rather carry the E-P1 all day any day.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Senior Member kevinparis's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    big smiles to vivek and cindy... I suppose I deserved that. G1 didn't offer the bulk reduction i wanted compare to the oly 510. The EP-1 kinda promised that... it was bought to replace a g9... but they have blown it by putting too many buttons on it..

    Actually the thing i like best about the e-p1 is the video

    cheers

    K

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    Re: losing the love?

    Not yet, but it may come back to mind (since you've used all 3 m4/3rds we have thus far) when I decide what to add as second body. I plan to wait now until we see if the GF1 really will exist--and then I'll have to make some kind of decision. I don't want 3--and I do rather want video. I really DO like my G1--and I did try (though briefly) the E-P1 but instead just added the 17 f/2.8 to the G1.

    Its pretty much wait and see for me right now.

    Diane

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    It interesting topic. When I first got the Pen, I reached for it every time I picked up a camera. I also really wanted to learn it completely. When I was in Iceland, I didn't use it as much as the G1 because I found the G1 much more flexible with the swivel LCD and the EVF.

    I am much happier with the camera controls on the G1 than I am with the Oly. I know I had longer with the Panny than the Oly but I still think the Oly interface is over done. I know people love the control panel on the Oly but the Panny has it as well. However, things like the histogram can't be done with gridlines etc. on the Oly. My way of saying it is too much is mutually exclusive.

    Perhaps I'm also just frustrated that I still can't use my regular workflow with Lightroom.

    While I can be a snob about lenses and still have some of my M lenses, I am digging the 14-140. Small camera with with very flexible lens makes for a great walk around experience. During the day I don't need really fast so the 14-140 plus 20mm f.17 could make an outstanding kit on any m4/3 camera. To round it out the 7-14 is probably the most fun lens I've ever owned. Give me a reasonable 200-400 to go really long and a macro and I would say wow what a fun fun fun! kit to cover anything.

    All that being said, I do like the Pen form factor which bodes well for the GF1 if it indeed has a detachable EVF (best of both worlds).

    Sorry for rambling. Hopefully this will help someone's decision process.

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    Re: losing the love?

    I appreciate the candid comments by some users of the e-pi. I have a G1 and have been pleased with its operation. While practically all users of the e-p1 are pleased with the IQ, I am not surprised by the some of the comments in this thread. I have used P&S', including currently the LX3, and find it difficult to compose photos in bright sunlight. I see that some of the users of e-p1 are experiencing the same thing. Further, the thing that made me continually upgrade digitals was slow AF. It would drive me mad when I saw a photo opp of my grandchildren and by the time the camera focused and set exposure (even with the shutter release 1/2 pressed down), the scene had changed. It seems as if some of the users in this thread are experiencing the same frustration. I am a graduate of the Sony R1, which is now in the capable hands of my daughter, the focus delay with the R1 was maddening. The Panasonic G1 got it right. I expect that Panasonic's future smaller m4/3 will also get right. I believe that Olympus is watching forums such as Getdpi, and they are working on the next upgrade of the e-p1 which will address issues on a pretty good camera. As many in this forum have indicated. I also value small and light over big and heavy. Both Panasonic and Olympus are offering the type of digital cameras I value.

  13. #13
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    I actually don't struggle much in the bright sunlight (with either E-P1 or DLux4), and depending on the circumstance find the LCD easier to deal with than an OVF. Also, the AF on the E-P1 is quite accurate, so I find that I can just point in the general direction and shoot, and crop later if needed. But it really depends on what kind of stuff you shoot and how you like to work.

    The problem with the G1 for me is that it is like "dSLR-lite" and is too small for my hands. It is quicker to focus than the E-P1, but it isn't "pocketable" either, so I might as well have my Pentax as it gives me more DR than the u4/3. I do however like the look that the E-P1 creates though.

    There just is no free lunch, and you have to pick your compromises.

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    Member slau's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    I can understand the logic or reasoning of 'losing the love'.

    My friend and shooting buddy bought two EP-1 kits, one with the 17f2.8 and one with the 14-42 kit lens four weeks ago. He loved them to death and barely touched his 5DMk2 and 1DsMk3. He even went out and bought a Hoodman, the Olympus 50f2 and 25f2.8 + the Olympus 4/3 to M4/3 adapter. I have tried one of his EP-1s for one shooting session. It was 'fun' but I don't think it is for me.

    Anyway, after he bought a G1 with 14-45 and went out shooting with me with my G1 + 14-45 and C/Y 50f1.4, he sold both of his EP-1. He is liking the G1 more and more, and invested in the Panasonic 25f1.5 Summilux lens. We went out again yesterday and both of us used only the G1. After another long day shooting, we agreed that the G1 kit seems to grow on us. I guess that for most people, the G1 is easier to use and suit their need more.

    I am still waiting for my GH1 replacement.
    Stephen Lau
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    http://www.pbase.com/stephenl

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    I struggled with the same dilemma. I finally sold the G1 but the E-P1 still lacks much that I really want. First, I find that in bright sunlight it is very hard to manually focus (especially when facing the sun). I really miss the EVF of the G1. The two best features of the E-P1 are the video (really amazingly good) and the in body IS which I also find very good down to 1/8 with the 17mm. I think the high ISO performance is much better than the G1 at 1600 and 3200, a little better at 800 and about the same at 400. I like the idea that lenses can be made smaller and lighter without IS but the optical quality of the OLY m43 lenses has not compared to the Panasonic lenses. It still beats me why vendors won't use the open DNG format so raw processing becomes easy with a wide array of processing options available on day one. If the GF1 has an EVF I may have to go back to a Pany as their ergonomics are much better even if their styling doesn't compare.
    V/r John

  16. #16
    ddk
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    Re: losing the love?

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    .
    I do like the Pen form factor which bodes well for the GF1 if it indeed has a detachable EVF (best of both worlds).
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Well, I can see the logic in the GF1 as a matching camera to the GH1... they would make a good pair I think...

    Brian
    Please excuse my ignorance but what advantage would a GF1 with an EVF have over the GH1? If its size then I don't see how a GF1+EVF could be that much more compact than the GH1 and without an EVF then you're back to the EP-1's issues.

  17. #17
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Please excuse my ignorance but what advantage would a GF1 with an EVF have over the GH1? If its size then I don't see how a GF1+EVF could be that much more compact than the GH1 and without an EVF then you're back to the EP-1's issues.
    I think the advantage is if the GF1 has an EVF it will be removable. So you can go small and use the LCD or pop it on and bring the camera to your eye. The body shape is more p&s than mini-dSLR and some prefer that. I find that on the street people tend to react less to a camera that looks like a p&s as opposed to dSLR (even if the dSLR is small). Though it is becoming less of an issue as more and more dSLRs are around.

    Still, different form factors.

  18. #18
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    Re: losing the love?

    David,
    I do like shooting the Pen like a compact but there are times when I really would like an EVF and hold it eye level. With a pancake lens this could a very slimline which is a form factor that I do like. If the GF1 has a removable EVF it can be used both ways. I agree, with the viewfinder it won't be that much different than the G1/GH1.

    I will have a 2 body m4/3 system. I only have the GH1 because of a fluke in timing as I wasn't expecting it until September after a GF1 announcement. After the announcement I figured I would have time to cancel the GH1 order if the GF1 was compelling. But I must say that I did want the 14-140 lens and getting the kit is really the only way to get it in the US right now.

    So for now I have too much gear but I will sort it all out and sell some bits off in the coming weeks.

    Did your GH1 arrive?

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    For manual focusing in bright sun light you really do need the EVF. It also helps for framing in some cases. For a P&S the new Canon S90 is looking very attractive with its ring adjusters. Previewers are raving about it, especially with its fast lens.
    V/r John

  20. #20
    ddk
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    Re: losing the love?

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    I think the advantage is if the GF1 has an EVF it will be removable. So you can go small and use the LCD or pop it on and bring the camera to your eye. The body shape is more p&s than mini-dSLR and some prefer that. I find that on the street people tend to react less to a camera that looks like a p&s as opposed to dSLR (even if the dSLR is small). Though it is becoming less of an issue as more and more dSLRs are around.

    Still, different form factors.
    I have a similar experience in NYC, I find that people react negatively to a dslr and tend to ignore you with a compact, so by default the GRD has been my street camera. A couple of weeks ago I took my Contax 645 with the DB for some street shots, just to see how it handles and I was amazed how positively people reacted to it. Nobody complained and people were actually posing for me which me kinda nervous not having to steal the shot.

  21. #21
    ddk
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    Re: losing the love?

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    David,
    I do like shooting the Pen like a compact but there are times when I really would like an EVF and hold it eye level. With a pancake lens this could a very slimline which is a form factor that I do like. If the GF1 has a removable EVF it can be used both ways. I agree, with the viewfinder it won't be that much different than the G1/GH1.

    I will have a 2 body m4/3 system. I only have the GH1 because of a fluke in timing as I wasn't expecting it until September after a GF1 announcement. After the announcement I figured I would have time to cancel the GH1 order if the GF1 was compelling. But I must say that I did want the 14-140 lens and getting the kit is really the only way to get it in the US right now.

    So for now I have too much gear but I will sort it all out and sell some bits off in the coming weeks.

    Did your GH1 arrive?
    Nah, how can you ever have too much gear . I'm supposed to be getting mine next week, unfortunately at the same time as the GRD, so one has to sit around for a while until I get finished testing the other one.

  22. #22
    Lupo
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    Re: losing the love?

    The worst thing about my E-P1 is its bulky housing.

    With pancake it is ok, a little too hard perhaps. But it is a larger lens, it makes no fun anymore.

    I have to wear them with a belt or pocket. Where the advantage is to G1?


    OK, with a small standard lens makes them pretty good!

  23. #23
    Super Duper
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    Re: losing the love?

    For my taste the GH1 is the most interesting.
    First of all I feel for such a camera a lens with a nice range (like the 14-140) makes totally sense.
    The flippable display, the EFV, the faster AF, the flash, are all pluses compared to the E-P1. Plus I prefer the ruberized finish/grip.
    Another advantage is that the GH1 IS works for Video but the E-P1 only has electronic IS when shooting video (is this correct?)
    Main advantages of the E-P1 are size and style and maybe price. But than the E-P1 isnt really small/or a pocket camera either.

    But I have to agree that its still a in between camera.
    For me a SLR or good optical viewfinder is much prefered to any EVF.
    And if we talk about a "small" camera for me it could be max. as big as a Sigma dp1/dp2.
    Now if you see it as a cobined photo&video-camera the GH1 is great. If one wanted to just have a midsized camera for photo I wonder if a 4/3 SLR Oly 420/520 wouldnt be the better choice.

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    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    I have to admit, I'm pondering selling the E-P1. ...
    *sigh* I would rhetorically ask, "am I nuts?"
    sometimes one has to jump in and see ... it often is the only way. If you sell it for a $200 loss (which I doubt knowing eBay) then its been cheaper than rental ... right?

    but if you then buy another because you miss it ... well then I'll laugh and say your nuts



    what lens are you using on it? Perhaps fix on something really snug like the D-LUX has and see if that makes it better? I still like my Olympus trip 35 even though it doesn't have a zoom (although my main reason is for when I'm on multi day ski outings in -10 or less. My beard and my batteries may freeze, but my Oly keeps taking pictures ...


    although this was taken with my 10D before the last of 3 batteries died after just 20 images and cycling in my pockets

  25. #25
    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    I have to admit, I'm pondering selling the E-P1. I have this odd relationship going on with it. I bought it specifically because it was a "middle ground" between the DLux4 and Pentax. But I find myself frustrated because it isn't as portable as the DLux4, and doesn't give me the files I can get out of the K20d.
    Hi nostatic,

    IQ wise, do you feel limited by the sensor of the E-P1, or is it the lenses you're using? What raw converter do you use? do you have examples of images from your K20d which exceed the IQ of the E-P1?

    There's the next crop of P&S cameras coming through to consider - the Canon S90 could give you more IQ in the DLux4 size... I think the E-P1 form factor will remain for a while - the GF1 is almost identical in size.

    Cheers

    Brian

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    Re: losing the love?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Hi nostatic,

    .. I think the E-P1 form factor will remain for a while - the GF1 is almost identical in size.

    Brian

    I like the form factor also. I was very torn about not buying the E-P1 when I tried it, but knew that I had had issues with shooting with only an LCD with the G9-which is what lead me originally to the G1. I'm on a wait and see basis now but think the GF1 or something similar would be a very nice second m4/3rds for me because I could go either way--BUT---those who like the 14-140 (and I hadn't thought I would) make me wonder about notj just going with the GH!. Too many decisions LOL--I'm going to have to let it all settle out this Fall before deciding.

    Diane

  27. #27
    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: losing the love?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Hi nostatic,

    IQ wise, do you feel limited by the sensor of the E-P1, or is it the lenses you're using? What raw converter do you use? do you have examples of images from your K20d which exceed the IQ of the E-P1?

    There's the next crop of P&S cameras coming through to consider - the Canon S90 could give you more IQ in the DLux4 size... I think the E-P1 form factor will remain for a while - the GF1 is almost identical in size.

    Cheers

    Brian
    Hi Brian,

    Well, I have the kit zoom (very sharp but slow) and the 17/2.8 (less sharp, faster but still slow). I do a lot of low light shots (eg the ones posted at the top though my g/f took them) and there is a pretty big difference in "quality" between the E-P1/14-42 and K20d/43/1.9. I would expect there to be, and in many cases I can not only live with it, but I sometimes prefer the grain that the Oly gives. I generally despise zooms, but frankly the kit zoom is incredibly sharp and contrasty.

    I tried using RawDeveloper last night to compare to an in-camer jpg. Aperture doesn't yet support the Oly. I was a little surprised to see that the in-camera jpg was about as good as what I was seeing for the default E-P1 profile in RD.

    So the reality is can't really fault the quality of the images. I would like faster glass, a little snappier AF (my DLux4 beats it), and to be able to train my mind to not bring the camera to my eye to frame. It is weird because I never do it with the DLux4. It must be something about a size/weight threshold and force of habit.

    The other thing is it may just be the usual, "I wanna try something different." I do with there was a small AF lens that was f1.8...

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