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Thread: GF-1 specs announced...

  1. #101
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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Thanks for that info. I would like to see how they do, especially the 20/1.7. I know the AF isn't useful unless it is contrasty light.
    HOW do you know this? It has an AF assist illuminator, and if the AF is the same level as my G1, it focuses just fine in flat light even without it.

    I'm sure the 20/1.7 will be a good performer. I'm in no hurry, but I will definitely be ordering a GF1/20 kit. Everything I see about this camera appeals to me, can't wait to see it in the flesh and handle it.

  2. #102
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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    For those concerned that the GF1's EVF may not be up to the task, the folks on 43Rumors reveal this alternative:



    The guy who did it has the original pic on his Flickr stream, along with some pics made with the GF1 and 20/1.7.

    Unfortunately, he says the Viso release arm isn't quite angled correctly to hit the GF1's shutter button, so you have to raise the Viso mirror manually...

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    I'll stick to my G1, thank you

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    For those concerned that the GF1's EVF may not be up to the task, the folks on 43Rumors reveal this alternative:

    The guy who did it has the original pic on his Flickr stream, along with some pics made with the GF1 and 20/1.7.

    Unfortunately, he says the Viso release arm isn't quite angled correctly to hit the GF1's shutter button, so you have to raise the Viso mirror manually...
    That (inspite of the viso arm being useless) could make the AF faster (for me) and make the focus selective and not where there is most contrast.

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    I haven't seen any reviewer discuss how well the EVF works. Does it have the same blackout issues of the G1? Is it hard or easy to manually focus with it? Does it magnify only the center of the image or the entire image? Given its lower resolution and the same refresh rate is the black out time shorter? Can it follow a moving subject while firing in continuous mode? How does the image look in low light?

    If it is the same as the G1 (I have no experience with the GH1 so I can't compare it) then it may only be marginally useful. Better than nothing but not really there.

    I have to wonder why they don't just give us a focus confirmation beep and led flash so we could use an optical VF and not have to strain our eyes or magnify the image to get manual focus right.
    V/r John

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Dpreview did discuss the EVF briefly. I love the EVF on the G1--prefer it for most shooting to my VF on the 5D. MF is a breeze for me, even in quite low light where I would never be able to MF with a normal VF.

    What I got from dpreview was that it is not nearly as good but serviceable when the LCD is unusable (for me that's often in daylight when I can't compose or focus with the LCD) which is all I ask for this camera (I'll use the G1 for iffy MF shooting in low light)
    http://www.dpreview.com/previews/PanasonicGF1/page6.asp
    There's also some info here http://www.imaging-resource.com/PROD...VIEWFINDER.HTM

    Diane

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    I just reread the specs on the G1 and the refresh rate is 180fps versus 60 fps for the GF1 so I wonder whether this will be worth getting. I guess we will have to see what the Leica X1 uses. Maybe it will move me to buy one of those (likely) overpriced beasts.

    I was out shooting with the E-P1 on the beach and while I got some good shots it was not due to the LCD viewfinder that I could not really see. It was more of a point it in the right direction, try and prefocus and shoot at the right moment and hope all went well.

    A sample shot below.
    Last edited by barjohn; 3rd October 2009 at 13:52.
    V/r John

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    I have to wonder why they don't just give us a focus confirmation beep and led flash so we could use an optical VF and not have to strain our eyes or magnify the image to get manual focus right.
    Probably because contrast-detect AF doesn't actually confirm focus -- it doesn't really measure focus at all, only contrast. It has no way of knowing whether a particular contrast level means a low-contrast, in-focus subject or a higher-contrast but out-of-focus subject.

    All it can do is monitor how the contrast changes as the AF system operates, moving the lens in whatever direction makes contrast go up and then stopping it when contrast starts to go down again. (It's kind of amazing that Pana can make this work as fast as it does.)

    I can imagine designing a manual-focus "peaking" system that would show a red LED if you were turning the focus ring in a direction that reduced contrast and a green LED if you were turning the ring in a direction that increased contrast. You'd focus in whatever direction kept the LED green until it turned from green to red, then reverse direction until it turned from green to red again. But it would be touchy and slow, and I can't imagine most people would be happy with it.

    To get a simple, clear-cut, one-shot confirmation of correct focus, you need to use a phase-detect system like those in DSLRs. These actually examine subject details from two different viewpoints and signal correct focus when the detail patterns are "in phase." DSLRs get the image onto the phase detectors by using a secondary mirror pivoted off the back of the main reflex mirror, so there's currently no way to do this with a Micro Four Thirds camera.

    However, Nikon recently obtained a patent which appears to provide a way to use rows of pixels on the main sensor as phase detectors, so eventually we may see a true "electronic rangefinder" camera that works this way!

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Here is a good CDAF read as it talks about how Panny does it.

    http://www.imaging-resource.com/PROD...MCGF1VIDEO.HTM

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Ranger9,
    Very interesting. I didn't realize this. That means that unless the X1 has an EVF there is no way to do manual focus in bright sunlight where you can't really see the LCD. Folks on LUF are saying it would have a focus confirmation tone but with a live view that wouldn't work. I am starting to think the X1 will be a fixed autofocus only camera with the ability to manually set shutter speed and aperture via dials. Not very exciting given Leica's likely high price.
    V/r John

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    So what do HD video cameras use for auto focus? You can zoom and they auto adjust for exposure and focus on the fly. How do they do it?
    V/r John

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Another sample shot.
    Last edited by barjohn; 3rd October 2009 at 13:52.
    V/r John

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    So what do HD video cameras use for auto focus? You can zoom and they auto adjust for exposure and focus on the fly. How do they do it?
    They do it the same way the Pana G1 and GH1 do it -- it's an automated version of the same contrast-peaking process. You've probably noticed that, especially in dim light and/or with low-contrast subjects, they "hunt" and occasionally miss focus just like an AF still camera... which is one reason you still see "focus puller" (person who adjusts focus manually during filming) listed on film credits.

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Ranger9,
    Very interesting. I didn't realize this. That means that unless the X1 has an EVF there is no way to do manual focus in bright sunlight where you can't really see the LCD.
    You could still have a beep with a peaking system -- it would need to store the maximum contrast value achieved during focusing and then beep when you got back to that value. It's still a bit fiddly, since the only way you can be sure you've achieved peak contrast is to go past it and then come back to it. But it would be okay for occasional use, especially with a "forgiving" lens with a wide angle of view and a moderate maximum aperture, which seems to be what the X1 will have.

    I can imagine the X1 using a manual-focus system somewhat like the one on the Contax T2 film camera. Did you ever happen to use one of those? I had one as my carry-around camera for years. To focus the T2 manually, you'd turn a thumb wheel while watching for an LED to appear in the finder. The LED would flicker on as you approached best focus, stay on for a bit, then go off again.

    The whole range through which the LED stayed on was close enough for reasonably good focus; if you were picky, you'd saw back and forth a few times trying to hit exactly the middle of the range. (The T2 used IR focusing rather than contrast-detect, but the "peaking" principle was the same.)

    This worked fine for occasional use, given that the T2's 35mm f/2.8 lens didn't require super-accurate focusing and that most of us used the T2's autofocus most of the time. The manual focus was more of a backup, as I expect it will be for the X1.

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    I see from 1001 Noisy Cameras that the Sept. 12 edition of the British weekly Amateur Photographer has an extensive review of the GF1. You can buy an electronic version of the magazine from Zinio -- or just page through it for free on the Zinio site. You get three zoom-ins at no charge, and that's enough to read all of the article except for one page (I skipped the intro page.)

    One small but previous-unheard (at least by me) factoid I discovered reading this review is that the 20/1.7 lens doesn't autofocus in Continuous Autofocus mode! Evidently you're limited to single AF or manual. The article doesn't say whether that's true of all the Panasonics or just the GF1, and in any case I can't see this minor limitation as being a deal-breaker. It's just a bit curious, that's all... I wonder why it does that?

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    I see from 1001 Noisy Cameras that the Sept. 12 edition of the British weekly Amateur Photographer has an extensive review of the GF1. You can buy an electronic version of the magazine from Zinio -- or just page through it for free on the Zinio site. You get three zoom-ins at no charge, and that's enough to read all of the article except for one page (I skipped the intro page.)

    One small but previous-unheard (at least by me) factoid I discovered reading this review is that the 20/1.7 lens doesn't autofocus in Continuous Autofocus mode! Evidently you're limited to single AF or manual. The article doesn't say whether that's true of all the Panasonics or just the GF1, and in any case I can't see this minor limitation as being a deal-breaker. It's just a bit curious, that's all... I wonder why it does that?
    Apparently this lens is a bit slower to focus. From what I've read the elements in the other lenses used for focus are light and can be moved quickly. I think in this design it had to move a lot of glass which slowed it down. So, they probably didn't like the way it worked and disabled it. I don't really use CAF although for video it is useful.

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Now that we know more about the Leica X1 I wonder how many m43s users will buy it at $2K+ for a fixed lens camera. Sean Reid seems to intimate that it may have the same sensor as the Nikon D300 which would give it decent high ISO capability. While it doesn't say in the specs he also thinks it may have a weaker anti-aliasing filter than nikon and thus capture more detail. No EVF (a fixed OVF) but a focus confirmation light on the back. The LCD is small and low res so even worse than the E-P1s and not up to the GF-1s. There really isn't much point in MF in a camera with a fixed lens and no real EVF to view in bright sunlight. Even if the images are substantially better than the E-P1 or GF1 I can't see paying $2K for a digital camera with a fixed lens that could be obsoleted next year. At $1K, it is hard enough since you take about a $500 loss if you sell it within a year. To take a $1K loss would be harder for me to swallow.
    V/r John

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Here is a quick shot on a California girl modeling for a picture.
    Last edited by barjohn; 3rd October 2009 at 13:52.
    V/r John

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Now that we know more about the Leica X1 I wonder how many m43s users will buy it at $2K+ for a fixed lens camera. Sean Reid seems to intimate that it may have the same sensor as the Nikon D300 which would give it decent high ISO capability. While it doesn't say in the specs he also thinks it may have a weaker anti-aliasing filter than nikon and thus capture more detail. No EVF (a fixed OVF) but a focus confirmation light on the back. The LCD is small and low res so even worse than the E-P1s and not up to the GF-1s. There really isn't much point in MF in a camera with a fixed lens and no real EVF to view in bright sunlight. Even if the images are substantially better than the E-P1 or GF1 I can't see paying $2K for a digital camera with a fixed lens that could be obsoleted next year. At $1K, it is hard enough since you take about a $500 loss if you sell it within a year. To take a $1K loss would be harder for me to swallow.
    Yer just a bundle of joy there. ;-)

    I dunno, I seem to recall getting lots of good photos with an old Leica Ic that I picked up forty years ago. A 35mm lens, no rangefinder, no viewfinder ... had to scrounge a clip-on viewfinder ... no built in metering, no slow shutter speeds, no preview or review or meter or anything else. Just a nicely made box with a shutter, a way to wind film, and a nice lens.

    Seems to me that the Leica X1 has a heck of a lot more than that to help you along. Should be able to make *some* good photos, don'tjathink?

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    I don't doubt you can make good photos with it as there are many cameras including little cell phone cameras that you can make good photos with (of course it depends on what you mean by good, here I mean pleasing to someone) however it doesn't mean you will be willing to run out and pay $2K for it.
    V/r John

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    The way I look at it, if the X1 isn't worth $2k than there is no way the M9 is worth $7k.

    There simply is no relation between the price of a camera and good photography.

    The X1 has superior build quality (all metal body), and the largest sensor in a compact camera. It's really the only game in town. And I *really* like the user interface. Take a look:



    Isn't that fantastic? How simple can it get?

    The closest competition to the X1 is a used M8 and even that is a lot more expensive when the cost of a lens is included. And I wouldn't be surprised if the IQ of the X1 is better...

  22. #122
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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    [snark]
    You affluent Leica chaps are getting carried away with your inborn sense of entitlement by hijacking our proletarian little 4/3rd forum, and our GF-1 specs thread, to discuss your favorite camera -- which is neither 4/3 nor a GF-1.

    I'm sure the moderators will be happy to give you your very own forum in which to discuss the X-1. Maybe you can get Seal to make the first post!

    Meanwhile, a modicum of thread/topic discipline, please...
    [/snark]

  23. #123
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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Heh, the only Leica I own is a IIIf. No affluence here (maybe effluent, tho.)

    Got pricing on the GF1 today.

  24. #124
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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    As long as there's no flatulence, I'll forgive you.

    When ya think yer gonna getcher hands on summa them thar GF1s?

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    They are saying end of the month, or early next...

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    I got lured into getting a Leica D-Lux4 a few months ago. Before that the only Leica I owned was a 111f bought second hand in 1971. Loved it, and took some nice images, but got fooled again and sold it so I could buy a Polaroid SX-80

    I have now decided that Micro 4/3 is for me. I have E-P1 and G1 and will keep them. I have a lot of lenses and they are always getting used. The E-P1 is a keeper, because it has on board IS, so I don't need to look too closely at the GF-1

    I won't pay $2000 for a fixed lens camera - it doesn't pass the wife test

    Keith

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    There simply is no relation between the price of a camera and good photography.
    Yes and no.

    If I had not been smitten with a variety of very accessible lenses that can be used, I would not be dealing with a G1 at all.

    Where can I find a "Lux" quality for 5 Euros or a "Noct" for a few more or even a wide 0.95 (a SOM-Berthiot 25/0.95 plus a 0.65X combo) a bit more?

    Is the X1 worth $2000 for picture taking? For me, no.

    The M9, OTOH, is a different beast.

    How much is your special discount, Robert?

  28. #128
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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    The way I look at it, if the X1 isn't worth $2k than there is no way the M9 is worth $7k.



    Isn't that fantastic? How simple can it get?
    I definitely have my concerns over the X1 but I have to agree about the top plate. Thats what I am looking for in a small large sensor compact - proper simple external controls dials for aperture and shutter speed (ideally iso too). Fingers crossed another manufacturer will 'copy' (for want of a better word) the rangefinder style in m4/3 format. Still hate the price, although second hand it may be an interesting proposition if image-wise it holds up
    I really like the GF1 but I wish pany would put two control wheels on it (and the g1/gh1) opposed to the click-in wheel. Coming from the D300 I find that quite fiddly and often accidentally end up changing the aperture instead of shutter and vice versa (especially if in a hurry).
    Have to finish my dissertation and get another job first though!

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    I have been looking at high ISO M9 files and comparing them to E-P1 high ISO files and they don't compare. The E-P1 is both cleaner and more film like without the blotchy yellow and purple areas I see on the M9 files. In fact, I can't say that there is a huge improvement over M8 files in what I have seen so far. Further, at least one M9 exhibiting lines in the image and others showing banding at high ISO. If these problems showed on the lowly $900 GH1, G1 or E-P1 it might be more forgivable but on a $7K camera, I don't think so. The M9 looks to me like very much a rush job created when Leica realized the S2 was not going to save the company.

    A real new M9 should have incorporated more new technology than a larger sensor. The IR isn't completely fixed as Sean Reid's part 1 review shows and there is considerable vignetting and cyan color shift without applying in camera correction on wider lenses.

    Everyone assumes the X1 will have a superior lens but since you can't see a file produced without the in camera correction applied to their raw files how do you know? Becasue Oly & Panny decided not to apply lens correction to raw files in the camera (which they could have done) and the lens are interchangeable we see all of the limits to the lenses. Further, since they were obligated to make the lenses to a 43 standard so they could be used on any 43 vendor's camera they wisely chose to include the lens correction information in the raw structure to be applied in post rather than pre. Given that the X1 appears to have the same plastic telescoping barrel lens structure seen on many inexpensive P&S cameras and they affixed it to the camera we really don't know how much is software correction and how much is lens quality. Clearly there was no attempt to make a compact fixed lens. Had the lens been made interchangeable on the X1 we would quickly have learned about sensor vignetting and other issues that can be more easily hidden with a fixed lens through software processing.

    Oly and Panny took on the far more challenging technical tasks by allowing for a wide range of lenses and the issues of focusing manual lenses the the X1 avoids completely and they threw in video to boot!
    V/r John

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yes and no.

    If I had not been smitten with a variety of very accessible lenses that can be used, I would not be dealing with a G1 at all.

    Where can I find a "Lux" quality for 5 Euros or a "Noct" for a few more or even a wide 0.95 (a SOM-Berthiot 25/0.95 plus a 0.65X combo) a bit more?

    Is the X1 worth $2000 for picture taking? For me, no.

    The M9, OTOH, is a different beast.

    How much is your special discount, Robert?
    If we set up a scenario where you could directly exchange your G1 for an M9 - would you do it? (Doesn't matter that your G1 looks like ....)

    Keith

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Keith, Where can I send them to (2 of them with no visible LUMIX or the yellow L or the fake stainless steel lining)? Will throw in a black Olympus-D 17/2.8 as well.

    I was going to chop the pop-up flash off one, modify it for IR.. that one is missing a couple of the electrical contacts for the lens..

    The next camera for me definitely isn't going to be a combi-cam.

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Keith, Where can I send them to (2 of them with no visible LUMIX or the yellow L or the fake stainless steel lining)? Will throw in a black Olympus-D 17/2.8 as well.

    I was going to chop the pop-up flash off one, modify it for IR.. that one is missing a couple of the electrical contacts for the lens..

    The next camera for me definitely isn't going to be a combi-cam.
    Vivek, frankly, I am surprised - this must be an emotional response.

    As I understand it, the M9 has no live view, swivel LCD, crude rangefinder focus (sorry about that, but I do have an RD-1 that is not getting used), can't handle a zoom. But it may have more pixels (which we really don't want) and as yet IQ that is unmeasured (except for Barjohn who thinks his E-P1 is better).

    I have a checkered past. But sometime around 1973 I used to sell stuff to Leica in Midland, Canada. I loved my visits there, and they bought a lens coating machine from me. I worshiped my 111f until I got fooled again and sold it I had an emotional relationship with Leica, but fortunately could not afford to do anything about it.

    But these prices are somewhat insane. At least that's what my wife says, and she is one who must be obeyed

    I think you could get a dozen G1's for the cost of an M9, scratch and rebuild the hell out of them, and use every lens under the sun, and not notice a fig differenct in IQ.

    I dread the day when Rawfa test drives a Leica M9

    Keith

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    My Epson R-D1s was traded for a tiny USB spectrophotometer because it was not being used much. I loved it with several lenses (all of them I still have).

    Wouldn't test driving a camera and having the pics in a "gallery" swell.

    I just am fed up with the combi-cams.

    I love the fact that medium format (digital) and Leica film users come and post in the B&W thread here.

    That speaks volume than any single person's opinion or endorsement. Enough said.

  34. #134
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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    There simply is no relation between the price of a camera and good photography.
    So why aren't we all using a box Brownie?

    Chris

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    I haven't seen any reviewer discuss how well the EVF works. Does it have the same blackout issues of the G1?
    what black out issues on the G1 ... my G1 is less of a blackout than my 5 frames per second EOS film camera


    Is it hard or easy to manually focus with it? Does it magnify only the center of the image or the entire image?
    do you have a G1? I would expect that it operates using exactly that paradigm (which follows the selected focus location)


    even without my glasses (needed for close vision) I can see well enough to get critical focus using only the rear screen quite well..

  36. #136
    Senior Member pellicle's Avatar
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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger 9 View Post
    Probably because contrast-detect AF doesn't actually confirm focus -- it doesn't really measure focus at all, only contrast.
    sounds logical but I would offer two points
    1) my Nikon Coolpix and my Canon A520 both "confirm" focus
    2) just how does Phase Detect know if you want the foreground or the background within the target area either?


    seems both systems really depend on fast operation of lenses. I can't say I see much wrong with the AF on my G1 using the Kit lens ... its as fast as the USM lenses I have for my EOS system

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    Re: GF-1 specs announced...

    It can be made to confirm anything with a green or red dot.

    The question is whether you want the metal arms of a chair to be confirmed or the wooden face of a person's eyes.

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    Senior Member m3photo's Avatar
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    Re: M9 high ISO files etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    I have been looking at high ISO M9 files and comparing them to E-P1 high ISO files and they don't compare. The E-P1 is both cleaner and more film like without the blotchy yellow and purple areas I see on the M9 files.
    Damn, what do I do with my $7000 now? (I wish)

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    Re: M9 high ISO files etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by m3photo View Post
    Damn, what do I do with my $7000 now? (I wish)
    Oh, just buy three X1s instead. Just think: extra money for batteries, viewfinders and memory cards! ];-)

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