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Thread: Analog Dreams are Over

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    Analog Dreams are Over

    HI There
    Well, I got the V700 scanner today, and I spent the evening re-scanning some of my M6 films . . . it does a grand job, and will be staying, it's reasonably fast and in comparison with the same films scanned with the Nikon 5000 it's very nearly as good.

    But . . . it made me realise two things.

    1. Film has real charm
    2. I really don't have the time to be fiddling with it - I have a very busy day job (lucky me), and the scanning and processing of film is simply one step too far.

    So I've sent an email cancelling the order for the M7 (they were going to despatch it tomorrow for delivery on April Fool's day).

    It's a sad thing as I was anticipating lots of fun . . . but where the time was coming to fit it in I really don't know

    So, I'll be sticking with my M8 and A900, I have the processing pretty much down, so that I'm not spending much time on each shot (I wish I could).

    So - here are my analog dreams gone up in smoke

    (taken with the CV15 and an M6ttl in October 2006 - rescanned and processed tonight).


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    Senior Member helenhill's Avatar
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Well I Forgive YOU.....
    It makes sense really
    it is such a pain in the A** Film
    but nothing compares to a Beautiful Film Print ....

    I feel abit guilty not giving the M8 a full round /maybe another Day

    Best To You Jono...Your work is Always Superb

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    Senior Member simonclivehughes's Avatar
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Jono,

    I totally understand... I spent some time shooting with my newly acquired M6 and 35mm f1.4 lens on Saturday. I enjoyed using the Leica, but when I compare the experience to Sunday's outing with my pair of G1s, I just know that I may do the odd roll of film, but digital just wins out, especially for the reason you state: time.

    I am looking forward to getting my u4/3-to-M adapters (from CameraQuest) and using the M lenses with the G1. I think this will be the next best thing to owning the M8 (and I had two of them before). Part of me thinks I may try to pick up a used M8 down the road a bit. I'd love to have one and use it along with the G1s for shooting.

    Cheers,

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by simonclivehughes View Post
    Jono,

    I totally understand... I spent some time shooting with my newly acquired M6 and 35mm f1.4 lens on Saturday. I enjoyed using the Leica, but when I compare the experience to Sunday's outing with my pair of G1s, I just know that I may do the odd roll of film, but digital just wins out, especially for the reason you state: time.
    Yes, it's sad isn't it - I like to get stuck into a new experience, I normally go out shooting every day (even if it's only to excercise the dog) - sounds like 20 or 30 films a month, which, on a dedicated scanner would be roughly 1 working week

    Quote Originally Posted by simonclivehughes View Post
    I am looking forward to getting my u4/3-to-M adapters (from CameraQuest) and using the M lenses with the G1. I think this will be the next best thing to owning the M8 (and I had two of them before). Part of me thinks I may try to pick up a used M8 down the road a bit. I'd love to have one and use it along with the G1s for shooting.
    Cheers,
    I've clung on to my M8's, I love using them, and there is a certain something that the lack of an AA filter gives to a file. The G1 wasn't for me (I simply don't like EVF's however good they are). Now, if Olympus could produce an optical viewfinder with an overlay of grid lines and focus confirmation . . . or Leica, or panasonic, or anyone else come to that!

    I'm sure you'll enjoy using M lenses on the G1 though - I certainly did, and the focusing is really easy.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Jono - It's sad to hear indeed. I have one question, though... What about a digital workflow? Isn't this going to also take a lot of time, specially once you start playing with all the variations of the filters (such as Silver FX Pro) that really makes your digital work look great? Have you thought about outsourcing the development and scanning of your film to a lab?

    Cheers,

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Riccis View Post
    Jono - It's sad to hear indeed. I have one question, though... What about a digital workflow? Isn't this going to also take a lot of time, specially once you start playing with all the variations of the filters (such as Silver FX Pro) that really makes your digital work look great? Have you thought about outsourcing the development and scanning of your film to a lab?

    Cheers,
    HI Riccis
    I could indeed outsource it, but my experience of this is that they will normally only do a flatbed scan anyway - anything better than that is going to be very expensive. Added to which I neither live, nor work anywhere near a decent processing lab, so everything needs posting etc.

    Prices seem to be around £35 for develop and scan to high resolution tiff . . . thats £1 per shot! The cheapest high res service I've found is £17.00 per film (and that's just to jpg) - even at 10 films a month we're speaking big money here!

    As for my digital workflow - I use Aperture (with Viveza and silver efex pro as plugins) , and I really do have it nailed, of course, I sometimes play around, but normally I already know what I'll do with a digital file as soon as I've pressed the shutter.

    I'm sure it would be possible to get a similar workflow down with film (after it's been scanned), but it's a big learning curve, and together with the issues of other people scanning (i.e. quality and/or cost) and my general lack of spare time . . . I'm sure you can see the point.

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  7. #7
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Jono,
    For what it's worth, Ilford Labs do pretty good mail order in the UK. Develop £6.99 and standard res for £3 (with Freepost to them and postage included for the return assuming you don't need it registered post). Hi-Res JPEG is £9.95 which is a lot I admit. I tend to work with the standard res and re-scan myself for the select couple of pics per roll that I want to work on / do more with than post online.
    Not sure if it changes anything for you but thought I would at least point you in the direction of a cheaper lab alternative.
    Regards,
    Jonathan

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by JCorp View Post
    Jono,
    For what it's worth, Ilford Labs do pretty good mail order in the UK. Develop £6.99 and standard res for £3 (with Freepost to them and postage included for the return assuming you don't need it registered post). Hi-Res JPEG is £9.95 which is a lot I admit. I tend to work with the standard res and re-scan myself for the select couple of pics per roll that I want to work on / do more with than post online.
    Not sure if it changes anything for you but thought I would at least point you in the direction of a cheaper lab alternative.
    Regards,
    Jonathan
    Hi Jonathan
    Thank you
    I'd found them (it was the £17 quote, although I guess it's really £18).

    It's a hassle / return for it equation and the balance seems to be so heavily weighted on the hassle side!

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    Subscriber Member mwalker's Avatar
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Jono, I have come to the same conclusion. I bought a M7 and I've yet to develop a roll of film. I do understand the allure of film (I have shoe boxes full of slides in my closet) and will contine to use it on a limited basis but for me the digital workflow makes sense. As I do use film from time to time I think I will outsource the processing.
    Last edited by mwalker; 31st March 2009 at 07:42.
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Really, I think if you are going to truly work with film, the best bet in this day and age is to shoot medium format (sorry but imo digital MF still doesn't hold a candle to full frame 6X6 or 6X7) and scan with an Imacon. You can pick up an older model pretty cheaply and convert the scsi to firewire or dedicate an older machine to just the scanner. I made the investment a few years back in a refurb 646 and it's paid itself off over and over again.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Jono,
    Going from digital to 35 mm film can be traumatic indeed, as you are accustomed to a very low level of effort for each exposure.

    I think your experience to some extent confirms my own thoughts, that 35 mm is not worth the effort. If you move up to MF. 6x17, or LF, you make fewer exposures with more resolution which makes the effort more worthwhile.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by mwalker View Post
    Jono, I have come to the same conclusion. I bought a M7 and I've yet to develop a roll of film. I do understand the allure of film (I have shoe boxes full of slides in my closet) and will contine to use it on a limited basis but for me the digital workflow makes sense. As I do use film from time to time I think I will outsource the processing.
    HI Mike
    I'm sure it's true - I have been there before (and sold the M6ttl). With infinite time it might be a different matter.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    I don't want to sound like a fan boy but I am really enjoying shooting 100% film with my Ms... I don't shoot medium format (other than Holgas every once in a while) and love the freedom that film affords me (shoot, send to lab and get all my film developed and high res scans).

    I don't care about developing my own film as I use one of the best labs in the U.S. and if I'm going to be in the dark I'd rather print some fiber .

    Based on your comments (and that of other friends of mine like Jeff Ascough) it seems like film development is more of a hassle in the UK than here in the US... I am so sorry if this is the case and completely understand your move to the digital world.

    Cheers,

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Jono, I may be giving up my analog dreams as well. I love my Zeiss Ikon kit (black Ikon ZM, CV 35/1.4, ZM 50/2), but I don't have much time! Am considering selling it and instead buying another Four Thirds kit. Was considering selling my Nikon kit to buy into Four Thirds, but some recent low light work has put that idea to rest.
    -Amin Sabet

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    BTW, I also have more free time after switching to film from digital but this would not be the case if I was developing and scanning myself (specially for the type of work I do).

    Cheers,

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Charles and Lars
    Thanks for chipping in.
    I quite understand, and I think I'm with you. I gave up painting and took up photography as I didn't have time (my that was a long time ago).

    But with MF there is a different issue - I HAVE been tempted to go there, but whatever 'eye' I may have for a photograph is a very instinctive and reactive.

    You know the old thing about photography:
    "take a ranging shot, then think about it and get the shot you really want"
    well, for me, it's ALWAYS the ranging shot which is the good one. Subsequent shots have less and less to them.
    Using a tripod is the same, by the time I've got there I've forgotten the initial idea. It's not laziness, it's simply that whatever it is I see in a good photo is not under the control of my intellect, and it's very ephemeral.

    So, MF is not for me - and therefore I think that film isn't either (at the current time anyway).

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Riccis View Post
    Based on your comments (and that of other friends of mine like Jeff Ascough) it seems like film development is more of a hassle in the UK than here in the US... I am so sorry if this is the case and completely understand your move to the digital world.

    Cheers,
    HI Riccis
    It may be the case . . but I'm not moving to digital . . I was thinking of moving back to film (at least partly), and that's where the hassle seems to lie.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Jono, I may be giving up my analog dreams as well. I love my Zeiss Ikon kit (black Ikon ZM, CV 35/1.4, ZM 50/2), but I don't have much time! Am considering selling it and instead buying another Four Thirds kit. Was considering selling my Nikon kit to buy into Four Thirds, but some recent low light work has put that idea to rest.
    HI Amin
    I'm sorry to hear you're having the same situation. I was considering getting an Ikon (what a lovely thing).

    I've still got all my 4/3 kit (not m4/3), but it only really sees the light of day in wet or dusty conditions.

    The combination of the A900 and my two M8's makes for a good spectrum, and although the A900 isn't as good as the D700 in low light, but the built in IS and a fast lens makes up for one stop, and the extra resolution for most of the other one! On the other hand, the colour and 'glow' of the A900 is a different world from those workaday Nikon files (IMHO of course).

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    I'm thinking an E-620 and 14-42 will make a good complement for my D700, 35/2, and 85/1.4. The D700 will still be my main kit, but the E-620 will fit in a large coat pocket and the IS should help counter the slowness of the lens. It will be painful giving up the Zeiss though. It's far more satisfying to use.

    Edit: Actually, I went so far as listing my Ikon kit in Buy/Sell here and can't go through with it .
    Last edited by Amin; 31st March 2009 at 09:37.
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    Senior Member emmawest72's Avatar
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    I don't find dealing with film a hassle. Once I have a few rolls I drop them off at the lab and a day later I can pick them up nicely cut in 6 ( if 35mm film). Back home they go on the light table and I can then select which ones to scan / print.

    With the v700 I now do a low resolution batch scan of all the negs which takes about 2 min and then I can do my selection.

    I recently developed 45 rolls of bw film that was taken over the last 2 years. Wonderful experience as I was completely detached from the photos and could make a nice selection fairly quickly.

    I also tend to shoot much less with film but my keepers are much higher.

    Voila!
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  21. #21
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Ive posted a photo in the cameras other than leica section which I believe illustrates the difference between these two mediums.I"m interested to see if anyone agrees with me or if its bias of my aging brain......
    Its the space in the photograph ,the area around each figure in this example,that leads to a naturalness and peceived dimensionality that is somewhat less in normal digital photography.Im not stating this as fact but as an impression that I have and am more than interested in all of your views.
    I hope Im not viewed as a trouble maker here,believe it or not Im genuinly looking for a way in to digital...............Neil

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    Senior Member emmawest72's Avatar
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Neil,

    Just had a look at your photograph. With nice stuff like this why would you even want to go digital?
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Neil:

    I agree with you... Those tones you can only get with film... I am very good with PS and can get very close to this look with a bunch of custom curves that I created and used to apply to different areas of the images (highlights, midtones, shadows) with multiple opacities and blend modes but you know what, it just takes too long...

    Again, I don't mean to come as an anti-digital person as I was very successful with it but the time it took me to get my signature look (with no filters or out of the shelf actions but with the process mentioned above) was not worth it to me and just shooting film got me there.

    Cheers,

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Neil, William, Riccis
    You're right - absolutely, there is no way to get this look with digital, you can get close to it, but not there.

    On the other hand, there is no way to get the look of digital with film.

    They really are different, and film has it's charms, but so does digital (at least, in my opinion).

    Here is a shot which is clearly and obviously digital - of course, you may not like the look, but it's brisk and crisp, mirroring the 'feel' of the scene (at least, I think so).

    I'm not fighting any battle here - I wanted to go back to film for some of my output. . . . I simply realised that I don't currently have the time to do it.


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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Neil, I agree completely with your assessment which is why I just added an M7 to join the ranks of my two M8's. I've not touched my M8's since getting the M7 about three weeks ago. The prints are simply atmospheric. I've posted a couple of images recently in the Fun with Leica M (Film) which I think nicely illustrate this.

    Concerning the image you mention, I'm very curious about your post-processing workflow. In fact, I'm interested in anyones post-processing workflow, particularly using a Nikon 5000 (which is probably the worst light source for B&W film).

    Cheers,
    Jeff

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    Senior Member helenhill's Avatar
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    DIGITAL is Certainly Cool
    and thats what brought me back to Photography
    but when I look at my recent Film work
    I'm in LOVE with the ATMOSPHERE, Charm, & Edge
    which at present I am not able to achieve in Digital
    so I'm abit Lost
    in Loving Film but the extra workload can be a Drag....
    Best-H

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by emmawest72 View Post
    I also tend to shoot much less with film but my keepers are much higher.
    Voila!
    This to me is SOOOO TRUE !!!!

  28. #28
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    This is a detail from that posted photograph,it represents about an inch and a half by two inches from the print size available from the scan of some 25x17inches more or less.
    Is it possible that our brains can see these building blocks of the image while assesing the image as a whole.For me the grain of the analogue image is stunningly beautiful;.............for me the closer I get to a digital image the uglier it gets.
    Is it this instinctive vision that has led to the magapixel race as a way of hiding the digital nature of the image from our subconscious.
    I write this to stimulate discussion,they are presently my views but am open minded enough to be persuaded otherwise.......all the best.......Neil.
    Last edited by nei1; 24th October 2009 at 03:01.

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    Senior Member emmawest72's Avatar
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Jeff,

    Workflow...I have used a nikon coolscan IV up until 2 weeks ago and I did the follwing:

    Find a good neg ( easier said than done :-))

    1/ Dust of neg
    2/ scan in 16 bit TIFF ( b&w mode) using vuescan. I would always scan to get a washed out neg with little contrast in order to have maximum material in scan.
    3/ Open in PS to do curves adjustment, both overall and local by using selections. I would be using dodge and burn techniques as in the traditional darkroom. Most of the time I will be working with a wacom tablet. Much easier for me.
    4/ Save As 16 bit TIFF. I will keep the original scan in case I would like to come back to it.

    5/ Both scans are imported into Aperture.

    6/ If it will be printed I will apply some sharpening (in PS) but I will never save the sharpened file.

    Hope this helps.
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  30. #30
    nei1
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Williiam,Riccis and Jeff,thanks for your comments,as to workflow Im pretty new to this and like William Im using photoshop in a very darkroom like way.Similarly Im making a flat scan,16bit tiff,import into photoshop,darken a little and "spot"the image at 100%.This is then my base that I make a duplicate from that to carry on working.Sharpening is something Im not sure about,at the moment I use smart sharpen that Ive set to 60%:All a bit vague Im afraid...................Neil
    p.s.the photo was taken with tri-x at1250asa developed I think in aculux.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Charles and Lars
    Thanks for chipping in.
    I quite understand, and I think I'm with you. I gave up painting and took up photography as I didn't have time (my that was a long time ago).

    But with MF there is a different issue - I HAVE been tempted to go there, but whatever 'eye' I may have for a photograph is a very instinctive and reactive.

    You know the old thing about photography:
    "take a ranging shot, then think about it and get the shot you really want"
    well, for me, it's ALWAYS the ranging shot which is the good one. Subsequent shots have less and less to them.
    Using a tripod is the same, by the time I've got there I've forgotten the initial idea. It's not laziness, it's simply that whatever it is I see in a good photo is not under the control of my intellect, and it's very ephemeral.

    So, MF is not for me - and therefore I think that film isn't either (at the current time anyway).
    Hmmm, I think you should check out my website. My last book on breakdancers was all shot with medium format. Lots of my travel stuff as well. The RF Mamiyas, Rolleiflex TLR, and Hasselblad 6X6's are very receptive cameras and I rarely ever pull out a tripod (I'm just not a tripod kind of guy). But it is a different way of working, and one tends to take a few less images and compose a bit more carefully. Not a bad thing really! Used MF film gear is so cheap these days as well.

    All that said, I've been suckered by the M8. Esp for personal work it's nice to see that lab bill go bye bye.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    For me the grain of the analogue image is stunningly beautiful;.............
    I understand this and pretty much agree. However, I respectfully feel it begs the question... "why?" Is it possible that at least to some extent we respond to film because of nostalgia or some deeply embedded judgement learned in an early aesthetic awakening? Do we unconsciously attempt to recreate images that we learned to judge as "Art"? Was it the grain or the deep blacks or the little highlight details that were the convincing and final arbiters of the images we saw as being the ultimate? I don't think so. They played a role perhaps, but were secondary (or less).

    Even if that's partly true, beautiful grain and lovely film blacks are not enough to guarantee a beautiful image. Poorly conceived or executed shots that have film qualities but are otherwise banal are just as banal for having been shot on film. The same is true for digital.

  33. #33
    Oxide Blu
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post

    I understand this and pretty much agree. However, I respectfully feel it begs the question... "why?"

    I think it is rooted in a primal subconscious thing that picks up on the difference in image structure. Silver halide photography is random; random does not exist with any digital computing. I think our brains pick up on that.

  34. #34
    nei1
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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Thats what I tried to say Oxide Blu,you put it betr


    Tim, to follow youre arguement to its conclusion I would be using a paint brush and yes there are good and bad images in every medium,but here the question is over a brand new one,and thats a rare event.
    Last edited by nei1; 1st April 2009 at 12:52.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Is it possible that our brains can see these building blocks of the image while assesing the image as a whole.For me the grain of the analogue image is stunningly beautiful;.............for me the closer I get to a digital image the uglier it gets.
    Is it this instinctive vision that has led to the magapixel race as a way of hiding the digital nature of the image from our subconscious.
    I write this to stimulate discussion,they are presently my views but am open minded enough to be persuaded otherwise.......all the best.......Neil.
    Hmm
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
    don't get me wrong, I would love to be shooting some film, but it isn't because I'm dissatisfied with digital, it's because I think that film has real charm.

    Certainly some digital images get nasty the closer you get . . . usually those from compact cameras where they need to add bucket loads of noise reduction . . . However, I've been zooming in to a few images I took today, and I can't bring myself to see them as ugly.

    This is a topical shot from today - with a 100% crop afterwards. Of course, it's obviously digital, but do you really think it ugly?




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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by charlesphoto View Post
    Hmmm, I think you should check out my website. My last book on breakdancers was all shot with medium format. Lots of my travel stuff as well. The RF Mamiyas, Rolleiflex TLR, and Hasselblad 6X6's are very receptive cameras and I rarely ever pull out a tripod (I'm just not a tripod kind of guy). But it is a different way of working, and one tends to take a few less images and compose a bit more carefully. Not a bad thing really!
    Hi Charles, your work is great, but that is exactly the bad thing that I was talking about. The minute I start to be a 'bit more careful' it's gone . . . added to which, most of the time when I'm shooting I'm climbing through hedges and walking long distances . . carrying MF gear really isn't a feasible option.

    I think the distinction is between 'going out to take photographs' and 'going out AND taking photographs' Most people do the former, but I definitely do the latter. Nothing is ever planned.

    Quote Originally Posted by charlesphoto View Post
    Used MF film gear is so cheap these days as well.
    But as you say below, not the lab bill!
    Quote Originally Posted by charlesphoto View Post
    All that said, I've been suckered by the M8. Esp for personal work it's nice to see that lab bill go bye bye.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    film is messy digital is clean. in any clean comparison - pixel peeping stuff..digital wins.in a print the mess works. landscape shooters love digital worship it and kiss its feet for good technical reasons - a lot of less savoury utilitarian shooting - product shots /architecture/fashion - all that 'stuff' that ends up in magazines and then the bin and then landfills - that is the world of digital.

    your film shots should be family and loved ones or Linhoff technica super wide dead flat field of view or large format 8x10 so you do a contact print or transparencies so you cna whack on light table and go oohh ahhh..

    film is hard work digital is the easy floozie.

    both work for me.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Looks flat Jono,no 3D.Check out the Dp1 image link in the small camera section.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Looks flat Jono,no 3D.Check out the Dp1 image link in the small camera section.
    Pointless continuing - we'll have to agree to differ.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Sorry to offend Jono,thought you were made of sterner stuff,maybe I should have included that your shot of the daffodils is beautiful,but it is also flat.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Jono,

    first off, ignore the flat comment -- especially in comparison to the DP1. Sigma tends to over-sharpen and the files naturally have more pop. however, it would also be very difficult with that camera to get the delicate tonalities you achieved here -- which i think is much more in keeping with the subject matter. not to mention how perfectly easy it is to get flat files from film. it's all in the processing....

    one day on, and i'm quite amazed at the tonal values the M8 is capable of. very different from any other camera i've used and i was quite taken back by the gentleness of the files. definitely much more filmic than any other....

    and i am totally with you on the randomness of your shooting style -- finding things rather than going out in search. it is often my whimsical shots (one i'd never dare "waste" on film) that are my best. there is a place for digital, no doubt.

    however, i'm not giving up my M2. i love what film can do and am not going to abandon it. i plan to take it out now again and force myself to shoot as normal. this will keep the cost down (it really is disgustingly expensive here -- i could never shoot only film!) but allow me to still play in that medium. i also think there are days when i'll take it out in tandem with the M8, pulling it out for shots where i know it will excel.

    i'm actually happy with my arrangement, but i got an M that cost much less than the one you had your eye on so i don't feel that pressure. i think you might, eventually, decide to go at it again and be pleasantly surprised. i know you've worked hard to get a flow going where you don't have to spend much time on each photo, but mixing it up can be good for the soul.

    dabbling in analogue may keep you from complacency (you know pretty much what you're going to get whereas the M8 is still an anathema to me). get a beat up meterless cam and play. there's a joy in not having the foggiest idea of what you're going to get and it's amazing how much nicer an M2 feels in the hand....

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Congrats Cam...very HAPPY for You
    Post some Pixs



    Best- H

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Cam my reference to flat concerns depth not contrast

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    thank you, Helen. still just playing around.... i completely understand your frustrations, however, as these files need to be PP'ed. i personally find it heavenly to have a camera that gives you such raw RAWs, but it will take a bit to find the sweet spot. i love that they're so untouched! any processing will be all me -- rather than what a manufacturer believes it should be. i find it the digital equivalent to developing and scanning film yourself

    Neil, i know what you were talking about and i emphatically disagree. there was plenty of depth, just much more subtle than we're used to seeing. i thought it worked with the delicacy of the subject matter and imagine it would look gorgeous in print (which, after all, is the true test). i'm a fan of the texture in film, mind you, but i think the air of virginity here does show where digital perfection can work brilliantly for a given subject matter. film would have given it an entirely different air altogether.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Last post.

    I wish someone who has both an M8 and a film M would put a decent slow film in it ,put it on a tripod,take a suitable photo,change to the M8 take the same image with the same lens and then post them side by side.
    Cam ,I think you should do this and shut me up for good,if you succeed Ill sell all my analogue gear(might keep the M6)and buy an M8

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Sorry to offend Jono,thought you were made of sterner stuff,maybe I should have included that your shot of the daffodils is beautiful,but it is also flat.
    Offended?
    I'm not offended, but it's like religion:
    "I believe God exists"
    "I believe digital is flat"
    There isn't much point in saying "I don't believe in God"

    . . . . Mind you, I could start a campaign on the side of buses

    Just to prove I'm not sulking here is another flat digital image:



    together with crop (but I'm really not sure why this is relevant):

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    tit for tat

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    I wish someone who has both an M8 and a film M would put a decent slow film in it ,put it on a tripod,take a suitable photo,change to the M8 take the same image with the same lens and then post them side by side.
    Cam ,I think you should do this and shut me up for good,if you succeed Ill sell all my analogue gear(might keep the M6)and buy an M8
    Neil -- i will see.... once i get a little more comfortable with BOTH cameras, perhaps. to do it now would be unfair -- to both mediums. i also need to figure out which lenses to use. i have equivalent focal lengths, but the character of the glass is quite different -- which makes the test unfair....

    you cannot "take the same image with the same lens" because of the 1.33 crop on the M8 unless you back up/move forward -- in which case it's not the same image at all.... i'm afraid you may have to continue being in digital agony until a full-frame digital M comes out. but what the hey, you seem to be enjoying yourself! it would be a shame to shut you up

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    Jono,

    first off, ignore the flat comment -- especially in comparison to the DP1. Sigma tends to over-sharpen and the files naturally have more pop. however, it would also be very difficult with that camera to get the delicate tonalities you achieved here -- which i think is much more in keeping with the subject matter. not to mention how perfectly easy it is to get flat files from film. it's all in the processing....
    Ah yes - tonality vs zap. One thing the A900 is very good at (that daffodil shot was with the A900) is tonal subtlety, most black and white film is designed to get the black blacks and white whites which we all love (I'm not being sarcastic), I think that this makes it hard to get the mid tone subtleties, especially when you then go on to scan the negative - the grain (which is also lovely) exacerbates this situation.

    You'll notice that in all this discussion there is no point where I'm dissing film . .. I'm just arguing against my fellow Cornishman's dissing of digital.

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    one day on, and i'm quite amazed at the tonal values the M8 is capable of. very different from any other camera i've used and i was quite taken back by the gentleness of the files. definitely much more filmic than any other....
    It's lovely isn't it - especially in black and white - good digital files are gentle - again, the A900 files are gentle, especially in the mid range.

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    and i am totally with you on the randomness of your shooting style -- finding things rather than going out in search. it is often my whimsical shots (one i'd never dare "waste" on film) that are my best. there is a place for digital, no doubt.
    Ah yes, I'm afraid Cam that you and I don't take it all seriously enough

    One of the oft mentioned arguments for medium format is that it makes you more deliberate and careful . . . . with me that spells disaster.

    Mind you, I'd hate to give the impression that I take millions of shots at random. I'll often go out for a couple of hours and only take 1/2 dozen shots. It's just that I always have a camera with me - compacts are never good enough, so it's either an slr, or the M8. A Hassy with three or four lenses really is more than I want to carry around all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post

    however, i'm not giving up my M2. i love what film can do and am not going to abandon it. i plan to take it out now again and force myself to shoot as normal. this will keep the cost down (it really is disgustingly expensive here -- i could never shoot only film!) but allow me to still play in that medium. i also think there are days when i'll take it out in tandem with the M8, pulling it out for shots where i know it will excel.
    I'd love to - if there was a local lab who scanned well - then I'd go for it . . . But there isn't, I've rung lots of labs about their scanning, and none of them even pretend that it's good enough. To do it myself simply takes too long.

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post

    dabbling in analogue may keep you from complacency (you know pretty much what you're going to get whereas the M8 is still an anathema to me). get a beat up meterless cam and play. there's a joy in not having the foggiest idea of what you're going to get and it's amazing how much nicer an M2 feels in the hand....
    Well, it's so rare that I've had anything like a settled camera situation, that was a last reason to stick . . for years now I've been changing around cameras every couple of months. I may be crap, but I ain't complacent


    Thank you for your post - all that remains is to congratulate you on your M8 . . . I hope you're very happy together!

    My black one increasingly has the feel of an old pair of levis . . . it's not scratched, but the corners are gradually getting shiny.
    lovely
    Last edited by jonoslack; 2nd April 2009 at 07:12.

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Last post.
    I hope not - this discussion is already infinite - no reason to stop now!

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    I wish someone who has both an M8 and a film M would put a decent slow film in it ,put it on a tripod,take a suitable photo,change to the M8 take the same image with the same lens and then post them side by side.
    Cam ,I think you should do this and shut me up for good,if you succeed Ill sell all my analogue gear(might keep the M6)and buy an M8
    This is pointless Neil - partly because, as Cam says, the crop makes it so. But also for 3 good reasons:

    1. Some things look better in film and others in digital
    2. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder
    3. You have already made up your mind, which means you filter any new evidence through the decisions you have already made.

    I think the thing which is really telling is that, having decided you might dabble in digital, you've picked on the DP1 - which, to my eyes, produces the most digital looking files there are; sure, they have 'sparkle'.
    It's almost as if you're TRYING to reinforce a decision you've already made (surely not )

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    Re: Analog Dreams are Over

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Thank you for your post - all that remains is to congratulate you on your M8 . . . I hope you're very happy together!

    My black one increasingly has the feel of an old pair of levis . . . it's not scratched, but the corners are gradually getting shiny.
    lovely
    i am a dog with... well, you know

    seriously happy, but still a little puzzled with all the settings. my Epson was just soooo anologue-like, i'm a little befuddled (i really hate having to RTFM). i am looking forward to breaking mine in (you should see what i did to the Epson in less than a year!) but seriously hope it doesn't resemble any of my Levis. i'm afraid they all have holes in the knees

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