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View Full Version : Summarit Series 35,50,90 Ugly Test



Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 21:34
Well many folks run tests under ideal conditions. not my thing. I want to know when it is the worst it can possible be what my lenses will do under these conditions. So in that light this is strictly a Bokeh, Contrast , Saturation and Highlight test under the strongest ugliest light, deepest shadows and ugly background . In short The UGLY test. The only thing nice about it is my daughter Cali trying to keep her poor eyes open in the one of the brightest parts in the world, other than that these are conditions that you want to avoid at all costs but can't. Now let me point out what this test is NOT, it is not a sharpest , resolution test. You simply can't do that with a moving target so with that some will look sharper and some will not either due to her moving or dad not nailing the focusing. I would like to blame her because i am damn good at focusing but i even missed here. Tough conditions for sure. that sharpness test will come later plus i have another battery of test to do next week in much better light and conditions. i will call that one the pretty test. LOL

But the UGLY test comes first and it is pretty interesting to see what lens hold the contrast has the better saturation and can handle the highlights on here skin. This is bright stuff and many of you may not see the conditions like this.

So the details . Test lenses
35 summarit Vs 35mm F2 Cron version IV
50 summarit Vs 50mm 1.4 Lux ASPH
90 Summarit Vs 90 mm F2 Cron Apo

All shot at ISO 160 , camera set to daylight on A mode . BTW the meter was dead on. Also no chance of flair had umbrella over the setup. processed in LR . NO White Balance . I want to see the color of the lens and what it outputs. WB just makes it right, i want to see what is off that sensor not what LR does . Also turned ALL sharpening off. No adjustments to fill, recovery, shadow or highlights. I can work magic with these controls but for testing all of it is off. So bottom line it is ugly as it should be and down to the basic element as I can get, the lens.

Please wait until i finish loading all this up , it will take some time and i will let you know when i am done . This way it stays in order. Thanks Guy

Remember this is NOT a sharpness test. I missed, that will come without a moving object

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 21:36
First lets just post the 35mm Cron Version IV wide open at f2

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 21:38
Cron first at f2.5 than Summarrit at 2.5

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 21:41
35mm cron at 2.8 than 35mm summarit at 2.8

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 21:46
35mm cron at F4 than 35mm Summarit at F4

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 21:50
35 cron at 5.6 and 35 summarit at 5.6

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 21:55
35mm cron at F8 than 35mm Summarit at F8

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 21:58
Couple casual observations the Crons holds the shadows better and the bokeh is different than the Summarits . But the Summarits seem to hold the highlights better in the 35mm dept. Now a lot of this can be worked in the raw processing no doubt but this is your base file to work with

Let's move on to the 50mm

I really felt bad for Cali the sun was killing her here

Jan Brittenson
17th November 2007, 22:01
35mm cron at F4 than 35mm Summarit at F4
That's it, I'm reporting you for Lens Abuse. :p

My eyes! They're bleeding! :eek:

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:04
Moving on to the 50mm bracket . Lets put the 50 lux at 1.4 and F2 up in this section just for reference because obviously the Summarit is 2.5

Now I think this is were i missed focus and hit her hair on the left , still the data we need is here and that is what counts

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:07
50 lux at F2.5 and 50 summarit at 2.5. Sorry folks this is a long test

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:10
50 lux at 2.8 and 50 sum at 2.8

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:13
50 lux at 4 and 50 sum at 4

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:17
50 lux at 5.6 and 50 sum at 5.6.

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:22
Let's skip the F8 on the 50's and move on to the 90mm lens test.

Personally no chance i could not have the speed of the Lux but for the money difference well that is another story. i am impressed so far with the 50 performance and the 35 also

Okay we will put up the 90 apo cron at F2 .

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:26
90 cron F2.5 than 90 sum at 2.5

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:29
90 cron F2.8 than 90 sum at 2.8

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:31
90 cron F4 than 90 sum at F4

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:35
90 cron F5.6 than 90 sum at F5.6

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:42
Okay that is it for the test but just to show you how much you can get out of a situation like this, you can really work magic with raw processing and in reality all your images would look similar to this than what the test itself showed. there is a ton of elbow room with the M8 and all of these lenses are really damn good.

Just took a minute to make one look more normal. This was a 35 summarrit from the test

Thanks for your patience and time , Hopefully this will help you a little more. More testing to come

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:45
Also a round of applause for my daughters help and i feel i should show her in a better light so i shot this in the open shade with the 75 Lux at 1.4

Guy Mancuso
17th November 2007, 22:50
One point I did forget all with Leica IR filters on and menu set to UV/IR On.

robsteve
18th November 2007, 05:15
Guy:

Just to clarify, your 35mm Summicron was the older version before the ASPH?

In the 35mm shots there isn't much difference, but you may be comparing a 25-30 year old design 35mm Summicron version IV to a brand new design. The greens are better on the Summicron. I am looking at the green grass off to the lower right.


On the 50mm shots, the Summilux ASPH seems to have better blacks. The greens are also better on the Lux shot.

In the 90mm shots there is a much larger difference between the lenses in the blacks. It may be the APO correction coming into play.

Just looking at the green grass in the shots, these Summarits may not have the same color as the other Leica lenses. One of the hallmarks of Leica glass is it should all look the same and not have different colour. This goes back to the days of shooting slides where a lens with a different colour response would stick out in a slide show.

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 05:18
Morning folks yes the one thing that is pretty evident right off the bat is that there very good. Yes there is some subtle differences .Yes i did use the same processing throughout. I still think the Guy lenses are better but these really do give them a run and that is what impresses me so far. My only real issue is focusing the 90 summarit , the lenses they gave me are brand new out of the box and the 90 is stiff to focus as a learned shooting the golf the other day it can bounce on you out of focus. Lens really just needs to broken in with focusing. So we may hear new lens users saying this but the buttom line on long lenses is they just need to wear in so that focus is smooth.

Now there certainly Leica feel and built like the more expensive lenses too. If know one appreciates the way leica builds there lenses than they just don't know better. The feel and heft of them is better than anyone. The Summarits are right there with that real lens feeling. I know most of you know exactly what i am saying. There is meat there


Yes the 90 cron does seem to be a touch warmer also. I'm looking at my site on those and with the darker back ground it maybe more obvious . If you want to look here is the link http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120&page=2


The area i am watching is the specular highlights and the new summarits seem to be a touch better here in handling it smoother mostly in the 35 and 50 and the 90 the Cron seems a little better. Very important for a Portrait shooter

The other area i see big difference is the Bokeh on the 35mm the Version IV lens is really different at 2, 2.5,2.8. Than it kind of equals the Summarrits in look at F4

I know Sean is also running a whole series of comparisons also and what i believe you will see bigger differences in his tests compared to Zeiss and CV glass. My tests are from the same family of Leica so the differences seem to me more subtle and his may vary greatly in look and feel. Honestly I was expecting a bigger difference

I know i always say whatever test you see just record it as another piece of the total puzzle before laying your money down. I think real questions will come to mind when you put your hand in your pocket and try to decide what F stop you can afford for one and what you are willing to pay for that speed. I really think so far these Summarits were a good idea on Leica's part but now given what were are seeing pretty damn brilliant.

Lets see what further testing will bring. Now folks like me that are stocked pretty heavily maybe get one, folks starting in the M8 system than that is a different story and may get more than one. The 90 and 75 are my personal watch lenses. Hopefully i can get my hands on a 75 soon. They were a little back ordered from what i hear

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 05:23
Guy:

Just to clarify, your 35mm Summicron was the older version before the ASPH?

In the 35mm shots there isn't much difference, but you may be comparing a 25-30 year old design 35mm Summicron version IV to a brand new design.

On the 50mm shots, the Summilux ASPH seems to have better blacks. The greens are also better on the Lux shot. I am looking at the green off to the lower right.

In the 90mm shots there is a much larger difference between the lenses in the blacks. It may be the APO correction coming into play.


Nice observations Robert and that is pretty much what i am seeing also. not giving up my 50 Lux for anything because i do need the speed for my work.

Yes this is true the 35 version IV is pre asph and much older

cmb_
18th November 2007, 05:24
First and foremost - big round of applause for Cali!!!!!

Looks like the Summarits perform very well. One thing I notice with the 90's is the Cron handles the color, shadow, and highlight in the face much better. But as you pointed out you can deal with this in post and these are not ideal conditions so when you upload the "pretty test" it will be interesting to see if there is a big difference.

Bokeh seems good on the 90 Summarit and it really is good on all three.

The 50 is tough. I would find it hard to go for the Summarit at this focal length and give up 1.4 or even f/2 with a cron (but I do not have an M so this is all speculation on my part - but I am sure considering one).

I know you said this is not a resolution test but on center the Summarits seem real good but you can see they give up a little in the corners to the Cron and the Lux (the sleeve in her dress, for instance). But this may also be a characteristic one would seek.

The Summarits certainly expand the range of selection available depending on the characteristics one desires.

Lastly, big round of applause for Dad!!! :)

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 05:48
On center i will agree they seem pretty deadly sharp. Just thinking how to do the sharpness test. I don't want to do charts , man i hate them. I think I should do a color test also.

Cindy Flood
18th November 2007, 06:01
Guy,
Thank you so much for going through this exercise for us. Thanks to your model. Cali was a real trooper. I think real-world shooting is an important part of the puzzle. I'm looking forward to reading Sean's results, too.
I think that these lenses are better than I thought they would be and will make a good entry choice for new M8 owners, and the longer ones will make good travel options in our bags. The Guy lenses are the gold standard--- and that hasn't changed.

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 06:12
Thanks Cindy and could not agree more. These lenses will serve two purposes maybe three . New users coming into the M8 will certainly be the bigger buyers. Folks like us that have a full system and want some good travel lenses 75 and 90 certainly would be less weight and bulk in my bag compared to my 75 lux and 90 cron. Than you will have the fill a gap folks that maybe have a 50 and 90 and grab the 75 to fill it. Or have a 35 and 75 than add the 90mm. i know Jack already ordered the 90mm for travel even though he has the 90 cron. So some folks will overlap too. Now they need to address the wider arena . We really need leica to come out with a 12, 15 lenses. i hope this is there first ones coming after the Summarit 35,50,75 and 90.

lenses i would like to see are the 12 and 15 . Than give us a 24 F2 , 21 F2 and a 28 Lux 1.4. That would really round out there M line

David K
18th November 2007, 06:36
Guy,
Thanks for this test, I think it's very informative and the Summarit's held their own pretty well, especially for the price and the size. Also have to say what a treat it is not to have the thread steered off topic by the Canon vs Leica guys. Thanks to your lovely daughter too for being a good sport. Wouldn't mind seeing a shot of the 90's side by side to see the size difference if you get a chance.

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 06:39
Thanks David your right i need to get that done. One more cup of Espresso and I am on it. LOL

etrigan63
18th November 2007, 07:04
Must be like 30% humidity out there? You try anything like that here in Florida and your lovely daughter would be reduced to a sopping mass of perspiration, running mascara, and the rest of her facial makeup somewhere around her navel. Still, a big round of applause for Cali for being a trooper and putting with Dad's little acts of Mad Science!

The lens look like they are some real winners Guy. I got to play with them a Leica Demo Day down here at the beginning of November. The were very nice. I was not allowed to shoot pics as they were late pre-production samples. All they need is a 24-25mm and the line will be complete.

This thread is giving me GAS...

KurtKamka
18th November 2007, 07:13
I found a 75 at Camerwest on Friday. I should have it by Tuesday or Wednesday. Not that I need another lens, but, I want to see if it might be a substitute for lugging the 75lux around for quick trips. I'll be able to post a few quick comparisons during the Thanksgiving holiday for those who might be interested in a bokeh comparison.

Kurt

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 07:25
Thanks etrigan63 and BTW welcome to the forum. Yes these may make have you looking in your pockets a little to buy one .


Kurt that would be great. Just tag on this if you want.

Funny how did i know you already bought one, you know my friend your starting to rub off on me and that is scary. But your right I am looking the 75 or 90 myself. The bigger difference in size and weight is the 75mm lux vs the 75 Summarit

cmb_
18th November 2007, 07:52
I could see Leica using the Summarits to introduce a starter set for the M8 like they have with the M7 and the 50 Cron or the R9 + 35-70/4. That could be attractive for new buyers just getting into the M system as well as existing M users who do not have an M8 and are looking to go digital.

Lars
18th November 2007, 09:22
Guy,

I've been staring at your sample shots using the 35's..., the first one has a background bokeh that I just find a bit unpleasant and busy. I realize that it's partly a subjective matter, but not entirely. It looks overcompensated. I'm looking specifically at the upper right corner of the image and the sunlit bush. I would imagine that in the kind of photography you use your Leica for, background bokeh quality is not irrelevant.

The second 35 (Summicron?) has a very nice, creamy bokeh. I'd be willing to sacrifice some MTF stats for that!

(Also, one thing that's missing in your test shots is foreground bokeh. Far less important than background bokeh, of course. and I would guess that most Leica lenses won't fail miserably wrt foreground bokeh.)

Lars

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 09:29
Lars good eye . Yes actually the first 35 is the Cron F2 version IV about 20 years old in design and also non ASPH. It actually has been coined the bokeh king and yes it can be weird. Classic example of it in those shots , sort of like a Noctilux 50mm F1 lens has very strange bokeh which this resembles. Some folks will like that Summarit look a lot better and in these shots I agree. The bokeh looks a little strange in the cron with those trees. A lens you have to pay attention to the background

Lars
18th November 2007, 11:08
Well bokeh is also about the transition from sharp to unsharp, perhaps the "Cron" has qualities in that field. There is a LF photographer I know, Jim Galli, who collects and resells vintage LF lenses, he did a comparison of bokeh of soft focus lenses some time ago (I think it was Jim maybe my memory is not accurate). These lenses were used shooting a flower wide open on 8x10, DOF is literally micrometers, and you can clearly see the gradual transition from sharp to unsharp and how it differs widely even on lenses that render faraway out of focus objects similarly. Forgive my fascination with this topic, but I think it is possibly one of the most important qualities of a lens. Like I said I'm not a Leica shooter, my favorites wrt bokeh are my 85/1.4 and DC ("defocus control") 135/2 Nikkors, and of course my Cooke for 8x10. The cooke seems neutral in terms of bokeh meaning foreground and background out of focus is rendered in a similar way. The DC-Nikkor is a bit interesting in as its spherical aberration correction can be varied giving some interesting results including soft focus. My portrait here was shot with the DC-Nikkor at soft focus setting (I wrote an article about the photo here: http://www.8x10.se/pages/lightzone_selfportrait.htm. At the bottom of the page is a larger picture that I think illustrates both the soft focus at the setting I used, and the transition to background blur.)

Sorry about rambling and hijacking the thread I realize this is not Leica-specific.

Lars

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 11:21
No not at all Lars knowledge is king and wherever that winds up is always a good thing. Most of the Leica lenses that have this nice graduation between OOF are usually the Mandler design which most of them are the Sumilux . Look at the 50mm shots and that nice 75mm 1.4 shot of Cali. Jack knows a lot about the Mandler lenses and maybe he can chime in when he gets a chance.

A great topic and maybe we should start a thread somewhere on it. Everyone on this forum would love to learn more on bokeh and how it looks with different formats and lenses.

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 11:41
Here is a shot of the three Summarits i have. I shot it on a old metallic background and it's ugly but just wanted to show sizes

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 11:48
Here they are next to there counterparts laying down. I was rushing to get this shot

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 11:53
The whole lot of them 35 Summarit , 35 Cron, 50 Summarit, 50 Lux, 90 Summarit and 90 Cron

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 11:56
Need to blow the dust off. LOL

Lars
18th November 2007, 11:58
No not at all Lars knowledge is king and wherever that winds up is always a good thing.

Hehe I'm used to the "forum police" over at the Nikonians forum, they wouldn't even allow discussions about D3 rumors as that could offend Nikon. Priceless... Much easier to run a small forum like this of course, you know most or all of the members.

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 12:09
Well the idea here Lars is freedom to do what you think is right as long as it is the right thing to do for other members also. Frankly that is the only real rule i have. I do want a peaceful setting that promotes learning and sharing and it ties in with what we teach. If something good falls in a thread and we all think we should talk about let's do that but if a member thinks it should have it's own space to blossom we will create one for it. Our PM box is open 24/7 and any idea's are welcome.

BTW Jack and I do like knowing all our members and the big plus is we are here with you and I think that is the best part of this place. Were here to promote learning and having Pro's like yourself is invaluable to the membership.

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 13:30
Okay a little color test with a Macbeth color chart just to see absolutely if there is a difference. Here shot in the studio in a controlled setting with strobes and i also DID WB these from the bottom second left patch . One thing I did notice is my 35 cron does focus closer than the Summarit by .5 feet

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 13:34
50mm lenses

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 13:35
And the 90mm lenses

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 13:38
What is amazing a twenty year old lens looks like a new one . Wow hard pressed to see any real difference.

harmsr
18th November 2007, 16:55
Hey Guy,

Thanks for the testing.

I would agree with you that the 35 and 50 lenses are great starter lenses for those new to the system and starting out. In 35 I really like how the Lux ASPH rendered but the focus shift on the M8 did get in the way of my photographic use for the lens. Sorry to mention it, but I just don't like the version 4 or Nocti style bokeh. The Summarit seams cloase to my 35 Cron ASPH, but I think with a little less contrast (this is a good thing) and a little less fine detail.

The 50 Summarit seams a better option than the current Elmarit, but the Lux ASPH has got to be the best 50 mm lens ever. Out of curiosity, how does it handle flare?

The 90 is interesting to a point, however the Cron ASPH really does deliver more fine detail and textures but at a cost in both $ and size. How do you think it compares to the current 90 Elmarit? If you around Monday or Tuesday, I would like to see the Summarit shot against my Elmarit.

On the plus side, I do like these better than the 35 & 50 Zeiss offerings which are just too contrasty for me.

Best,

Ray

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 17:48
Ray i am around Monday and Tuesday , come up and give them a try. Between you me and the fence post i think the number one difference in these lenses performance wise is there built for digital and are a little flatter by maybe 1/3 of a stop or more. It handles the highlights just a touch better and flattens them, this is a good thing. They maybe better than the Elmarit in sharpness and detail but the Elmarit maybe smoother looking. Leica did a nice job on these lenses. I personally may get a 75mm which will be a travel for the 75 Lux. I am going to get a 75mm at some point to try out but i bet a dozen donuts it performs just like the 90mm.

The 35 cron version IV depends on how you use it in that scene it is distracting i agree but if the background is closer it looks great.

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 18:30
Have to say there about the nicest color charts i have seen. Adobe must have tweaked LR 1.3 .

etrigan63
18th November 2007, 20:07
I've been noticing that too. Lightroom 1.3 has been doing a much better job with my M8 files than 1.2 but not if there is noise. This may be fodder for another thread, though.

And believe me, I know about policing a site. My place, PlanetAMD64, has over 137,000 registered users and I have 300 people online at any given time of the day. Fun stuff. I have a staff of 12 moderators just to keep things tidy and keep the tempers down. Still every so often it turns into a daycare center. Let me know if you need any tips...

Guy Mancuso
18th November 2007, 20:21
It's interesting you say that , i just processed a job from the other day and i did not even WB it and skin tones a lot of red was gone. Something has changed in 1.3 . We do have a image processing section so a perfect place to start a thread on it but something we should explore. if you want to start one that would be awesome. i start so many that i feel sometimes i am the big mouth around here. LOL

We may tag you on the forum stuff . Like banners and links we are still learning. We could probably use the help

robsteve
19th November 2007, 03:24
What is amazing a twenty year old lens looks like a new one . Wow hard pressed to see any real difference.

It may be hard to see any difference because you are colour balancing each image off the grey patch. You need to use the same color balance in each of the images. In other words, click balance one of the set and copy those settings to the other in the set. Otherwise you will not be able to see the difference in the lenses.

Try it with your 50mm set. Click balance the Lux shot and then copy the color temp and tint to the 50 Summarit file.

Guy Mancuso
19th November 2007, 04:26
I was thinking that last night in bed Robert , maybe just put them up as they came in without WB them just to see . Although they did not change much either when I did WB each one. I will play around with it

Guy Mancuso
19th November 2007, 05:00
So thinking about it more any shot that I WB to use as a standard will be with that lens. So really you just have to go without WB it at all and just see what comes in raw data . So let's load it up without WB and see how that looks

35mm first

Guy Mancuso
19th November 2007, 05:02
50mm lenses

Guy Mancuso
19th November 2007, 05:04
90mm lenses

Guy Mancuso
19th November 2007, 05:05
The Summarits across the 3 seem to have more pop to them

carstenw
19th November 2007, 05:15
Very interesting! I have been considering getting a 35/2 IV for its small size and travel suitability, but after this test, I have a strong preference for, in order, the 35 Summarit, the 50 Lux Asph, and the 90s I like equally. I am surprised that the 35 Summarit has such a nice bokeh, whereas the 50 Summarit misses the mark a bit for me.

etrigan63
19th November 2007, 05:16
I have to agree with you on that. However, using LR, I assume you removed all import profiles used against the images when you first imported them or did you switch them to a linear profile?

PaulMayeux
19th November 2007, 06:58
I'm really liking what I am seeing out of the 35. I too have the 35 lux and while it doesn't suffer from extreme focus shift, it is much bigger than I would like. I have thought about the 35 cron asph but I dont' like the contrast - it reminds me of my 28 elmarit asph (which I don't care for).

Great test Guy.

harmsr
19th November 2007, 07:57
Relative to Lightroom 1.3, I would be surprised if it is different. When I check my M8 files there it still only gives me the ACR 3.6 option under the camera calibration drop down in the development area.

As far as I know, that means that they have not updated file handling for M8 files since version 3.6.

I might just be the subject and lighting for the photo.

I'm curious if you guys have found anything different, as I don't really see any difference in file quality with 1.3.

Best,

Ray

Jack
19th November 2007, 08:41
I agree with you guys on the 35. Frankly looks darn good and I love the bokeh I'm seeing. Problem is I like my version IV a lot too, especially for the way I use it, so probably won't be switching ;) But this Summarit gives a nice option at about the same price.

Cheers,

Guy Mancuso
19th November 2007, 08:58
I have to agree with you on that. However, using LR, I assume you removed all import profiles used against the images when you first imported them or did you switch them to a linear profile?

Yes i actually renamed the DNG's and than imported them again just to be safe

Guy Mancuso
19th November 2007, 09:05
Well the 35 Summarit is pretty nice guys and does have a nice bokeh to it what I need to try is something close and see how the two look. That Palo Verde tree is a weird looking tree to begin with and the version IV really makes it ugly Nocti looking because close up it is really nice . Look at this
http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/L9996109_thumb.jpg (http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=54&c=9)

Guy Mancuso
19th November 2007, 09:10
I'm really liking what I am seeing out of the 35. I too have the 35 lux and while it doesn't suffer from extreme focus shift, it is much bigger than I would like. I have thought about the 35 cron asph but I dont' like the contrast - it reminds me of my 28 elmarit asph (which I don't care for).

Great test Guy.

Paul not a big fan of the new 28 either . But the 35 summart really maybe worth a try. it really is sharp as you all have seen. The 35 lux i sold because of the focus shift. The 35mm lens is not the most used lens in the bag either my 28 cron is so i won't switch 35 because of the speed but this Summarit is looking really nice . I personally may get the 75mm as a travel lens becuase the 75 lux does not travel all the time. I throw the 90 cron in the bag since it is smaller . The big travel size weight difference is the 75 Lux and 75 summarit . There is a big difference there. Just need to try one first though

Guy Mancuso
19th November 2007, 13:49
Tried something close up with the 35 cron and summarit

Cron first than Summarit

Both at 2.5

Jack
19th November 2007, 15:22
Well here is my take on the new Summarits. It appears they are very good lenses, and by Leica standards definitely seem an excellent value. My take on each focal is as follows:

The 35 focal length is a great choice (IMO) as a selection for a day of street shooting with a compact single-lens/M8 combo set-up one can put together. In my case, I already own the 35 Cron version IV which is a bit smaller than the 35 Summarit, and I like the way it renders AND it is a half-stop faster, so I'm not going to be swapping over for the Summarit. It's also about the same price as a used 35 Cron Asph and half a stop slower, but it definitely has that classic older Leica lens design look to it. If I didn't own one of the older designs already, this new Summarit would be on my "buy" list right now.

With the 50, I'm not sure I understand the logic. I mean, why bother? Yes, it fills a gap between the 50 Elmar and 50 Summicron, but I'm not sure that space needed any filling... At it's new price, one can buy a used, current version 50 Summicron, which has been the go-to standard in compact high-performance 50mm lenses for years, or buy a new Elmar and pocket a few hundred bucks. My guess is Leica is perhaps planning to offer this as a kit lens bundled with a body, or maybe the M9 won't accept collapsible lenses?

While Guy did not get a 75 to review, I would suspect it performs comparably to the other Summarits shown. If it does, then I think this one is probably another winner; less than half the cost of the 75 Cron for only giving up a half-stop in speed. I don't use 75 very often myself and already own the 75 Lux, so I certainly don't need another 75 focal, but this Summarit is tiny by comparison. Tiny and reasonably priced compared to the alternatives, I think this lens makes a lot of sense for anybody wanting a 75.

Finally the 90. I am tempted by this lens as my choice for a compact travel tele. (I use the 90 focal length more than the 75.) I already own the 90 Apo Asph Cron which is simply a stunning performer even wide open. It's also a bit large and heavy (by Leica M standards) for travel. But it so darn good optically I'm not sure I can see myself giving it up to save a few ounces in the travel bag. For the time being I'll continue traveling with my Cron -- but the 90 Summarit may make it on my "buy" list sooner than later.

Cheers,

robsteve
19th November 2007, 15:29
Jack:

I was just looking at the MTFs in the aticle on Erwin Puts' site. It looks like the Summarits are pretty close to the Summicrons in the 35mm and 50mm lenghts. In the 75mm and 90mm charts the third or fourth line pair plot is better in the Summicron ASPHs. In other words, they will have better fine detail and microcontrast than the Summarits. The diffrerence between the 75mm lenses seems to be the greatest.

cmb_
19th November 2007, 15:48
The Voigtlander 75 is also f/2.5, correct? So that might prove to be an interesting match-up with the Summarit as well. Sean will probably cover this one.

Terry
19th November 2007, 15:53
Well here is my take on the new Summarits. It appears they are very good lenses, and by Leica standards definitely seem an excellent value. My take on each focal is as follows:

The 35 focal length is a great choice (IMO) as a selection for a day of street shooting with a compact single-lens/M8 combo set-up one can put together. In my case, I already own the 35 Cron version IV which is a bit smaller than the 35 Summarit, and I like the way it renders AND it is a half-stop faster, so I'm not going to be swapping over for the Summarit. It's also about the same price as a used 35 Cron Asph and half a stop slower, but it definitely has that classic older Leica lens design look to it. If I didn't own one of the older designs already, this new Summarit would be on my "buy" list right now.

With the 50, I'm not sure I understand the logic. I mean, why bother? Yes, it fills a gap between the 50 Elmar and 50 Summicron, but I'm not sure that space needed any filling... At it's new price, one can buy a used, current version 50 Summicron, which has been the go-to standard in compact high-performance 50mm lenses for years, or buy a new Elmar and pocket a few hundred bucks. My guess is Leica is perhaps planning to offer this as a kit lens bundled with a body, or maybe the M9 won't accept collapsible lenses?

While Guy did not get a 75 to review, I would suspect it performs comparably to the other Summarits shown. If it does, then I think this one is probably another winner; less than half the cost of the 75 Cron for only giving up a half-stop in speed. I don't use 75 very often myself and already own the 75 Lux, so I certainly don't need another 75 focal, but this Summarit is tiny by comparison. Tiny and reasonably priced compared to the alternatives, I think this lens makes a lot of sense for anybody wanting a 75.

Finally the 90. I am tempted by this lens as my choice for a compact travel tele. (I use the 90 focal length more than the 75.) I already own the 90 Apo Asph Cron which is simply a stunning performer even wide open. It's also a bit large and heavy (by Leica M standards) for travel. But it so darn good optically I'm not sure I can see myself giving it up to save a few ounces in the travel bag. For the time being I'll continue traveling with my Cron -- but the 90 Summarit may make it on my "buy" list sooner than later.

Cheers,

Having just bought a 50 cron about 2 months ago (getting the old price), I have no regrets about not waiting for the Summarit. I knew they were coming when I bought the lens but this is one of the most reasonably priced lenses and I figured I would kick myself someday wanting a faster lens. Interesting though when the lenses were announced, I thought the 35 and 50 were to be $1250 and the 75 and 90 a little more. The 50 is $1195 and all the others are $1495.

Jack....the 90 is in stock at B&H.......

Terry
19th November 2007, 15:55
The Voigtlander 75 is also f/2.5, correct? So that might prove to be an interesting match-up with the Summarit as well. Sean will probably cover this one.

I own the CV 75 and like it a lot. I am waiting to see how these two compare. The only thing I don't like about the 75 isn't the lens but the framelines. LOL.

Jack
19th November 2007, 16:04
The Voigtlander 75 is also f/2.5, correct? So that might prove to be an interesting match-up with the Summarit as well. Sean will probably cover this one.


Yes, that is going to be the "rubber meets ther road" comparison for sure :)

Jack
19th November 2007, 16:07
Having just bought a 50 cron about 2 months ago (getting the old price), I have no regrets about not waiting for the Summarit. I knew they were coming when I bought the lens but this is one of the most reasonably priced lenses and I figured I would kick myself someday wanting a faster lens.

IMO you chose very wisely :) The 50 Summicron is a stellar lens...


Jack....the 90 is in stock at B&H.......

Yeah saw that, and it is tempting, but I am going to schlep my 90 Cron on at least one more trip to decide if I really need (okay want) the lighter weight option.

Cheers,

Guy Mancuso
19th November 2007, 17:35
Well there not on the market to replace anything either per say. There here to fill a need and they do a very nice job of that. They do perform very well from what I have seen but let's face it the 50 lux is the best in the world , not a chance in the world i would sell it for a 2.8 lens. But that is me and not everyone would give there right arm for a lens. Hell i have no limbs left anyway, i just bounce around. LOL

Really folks it depends on need, budget and what your expectations are . i want the best at all costs, not everyone is like that at all.

gero
20th November 2007, 09:08
I own the CV 75 and like it a lot. I am waiting to see how these two compare. The only thing I don't like about the 75 isn't the lens but the framelines. LOL.

The 35/2.5 voightlander is also small, grate and less expensive.

Terry
20th November 2007, 09:25
The 35/2.5 voightlander is also small, grate and less expensive.

Yep, I've got that one as well. When I bought the M8 the cv35 and cv75 were my first two lenses to figure out what focal lengths I wanted most.

Guy Mancuso
20th November 2007, 09:39
Okay off to cowboy town and shoot a sharpness test. Fun

Guy Mancuso
20th November 2007, 12:24
Not inspired enough to shoot anything today there . I hate shooting charts so i will find something interesting

Sean_Reid
20th November 2007, 18:34
The Voigtlander 75 is also f/2.5, correct? So that might prove to be an interesting match-up with the Summarit as well. Sean will probably cover this one.

I'm working on the following sets right now:

35 Summarit, 35 Summicron, 35 Zeiss, CV 35/2.5

50 Summarit, 50 Summicron, 50 Zeiss, CV 50/2.5, CV 50/2.0

75 Summarit, 75 Summicron, CV 75/2.5

90 Summarit, 90 Summicron, 85 Zeiss, CV 90/3.5


Cheers,

Sean

Sean_Reid
20th November 2007, 18:40
Jack:

I was just looking at the MTFs in the aticle on Erwin Puts' site. It looks like the Summarits are pretty close to the Summicrons in the 35mm and 50mm lenghts. In the 75mm and 90mm charts the third or fourth line pair plot is better in the Summicron ASPHs. In other words, they will have better fine detail and microcontrast than the Summarits. The diffrerence between the 75mm lenses seems to be the greatest.

Hi Rob,

The Summarits tend to run a bit lower contrast than the current Summicrons so the MTF numbers can be a bit misleading. One problem with MTF is that it measures contrast and resolution together. As such, it penalizes lower contrast lenses. Of course, contrast can be increased in processing, resolution can't.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean_Reid
20th November 2007, 18:43
Overall, I'm finding that the Summarits are testing very well overall. I think that anyone thinking of them as mere "starter" lenses will be a bit surprised at how they actually perform.

Cheers,

Sean

harmsr
20th November 2007, 20:04
Sean,

Guy & I played the 90 Summarit off against my 90 Elmarit yesterday. Do you have one of these to include in your testing?

We were both rather surprised by how much better the Elmarit was than the Summarit. I'll resize and post the photos tomorrow.

Best,

Ray

Sean_Reid
21st November 2007, 05:32
Hi Ray,

Not this time around, I'm afraid. I'm curious to see your pictures.

Cheers,

Sean

woodyspedden
21st November 2007, 06:21
Sean

Although it may be of limited value given the rapid shift to digital I was wondering if you planned to test any of these lenses on an M6 or M7 to ascertain the quality of ultimate corner performance. Although the M8 is 1.33 crop, a future M9 or other may well have full frame capability.

Just curious

Woody Spedden

carstenw
21st November 2007, 07:51
Although it may be of limited value given the rapid shift to digital I was wondering if you planned to test any of these lenses on an M6 or M7 to ascertain the quality of ultimate corner performance. Although the M8 is 1.33 crop, a future M9 or other may well have full frame capability.

A very good point, and exactly why I ended up saving up for the 28 Cron instead of the new 28 Elmarit: the corner performance of the Cron is much more robust on full frame.

woodyspedden
21st November 2007, 12:50
A very good point, and exactly why I ended up saving up for the 28 Cron instead of the new 28 Elmarit: the corner performance of the Cron is much more robust on full frame.

I did the same Carsten and haven't looked back. The 28 cron, in my opinion, is perhaps the best of the M line, or at least for the M8. Tack sharp, wonderful (read not overdone) contrast, and lovely bokeh.

Woody

Sean_Reid
21st November 2007, 16:14
Sean

Although it may be of limited value given the rapid shift to digital I was wondering if you planned to test any of these lenses on an M6 or M7 to ascertain the quality of ultimate corner performance. Although the M8 is 1.33 crop, a future M9 or other may well have full frame capability.

Just curious

Woody Spedden

Hi Woody,

That's a very interesting question that really has two parts. Will I be testing these lenses on film cameras and would the results from film cameras give us a sense of how the lenses might perform on a FF digital M?

When I started reviewing, I had planned to review lenses on both film and digital bodies. I now realize that I've adopted a fairly extensive and detailed set of methods for testing lenses and it would be nearly impossible to follow my current testing methods with film. It took me awhile to fully realize that but, now that I know, its digital testing for me. Also, I can't even keep up with the work I have to do now. I'm working on nine different reviews right now. Its nearly impossible even with digital capture and real-time results.

The way a given lens performs on a film rangefinder camera will not necessarily predict how it might perform on a FF DRF. The two mediums are different enough that results from one do not necessarily predict results from the other. This is especially true with DRFs and the complicated ways in which microlenses must be used to offset vignetting, etc. in the outer zones. A lens that does well on the R-D1 (1.5X crop) will usually do well on the M8 (1.33X crop). Yet the converse it often not true.

So the best way to test lens performance on a FF DRF will be using that specific camera for testing. *If* there comes a FF DRF and *if* the microlenses really work well, I would expect that a lens that does well on the M8 would also do well on this FF DRF. But should such a mythical camera come to pass, I'll have a lot of retesting to do.

Cheers,

Sean

woodyspedden
22nd November 2007, 04:43
Hi Sean

Not surprised at your answer given the tremendous amount of work you produce on your site these days. And all of it really worthwhile IMO so thanks.

The only reason for my question was to test the performance of the Summarits against the fast primes in the outer zones. But your explanation of the differences in DRF to RF Film bodies is probably right on so not worth pursuing.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question and continued best with your site. I have been a subscriber for going on three years and have found it to be a wonderful way to get the information I need for RF bodies and lenses.

Best

Woody



Hi Woody,

That's a very interesting question that really has two parts. Will I be testing these lenses on film cameras and would the results from film cameras give us a sense of how the lenses might perform on a FF digital M?

When I started reviewing, I had planned to review lenses on both film and digital bodies. I now realize that I've adopted a fairly extensive and detailed set of methods for testing lenses and it would be nearly impossible to follow my current testing methods with film. It took me awhile to fully realize that but, now that I know, its digital testing for me. Also, I can't even keep up with the work I have to do now. I'm working on nine different reviews right now. Its nearly impossible even with digital capture and real-time results.

The way a given lens performs on a film rangefinder camera will not necessarily predict how it might perform on a FF DRF. The two mediums are different enough that results from one do not necessarily predict results from the other. This is especially true with DRFs and the complicated ways in which microlenses must be used to offset vignetting, etc. in the outer zones. A lens that does well on the R-D1 (1.5X crop) will usually do well on the M8 (1.33X crop). Yet the converse it often not true.

So the best way to test lens performance on a FF DRF will be using that specific camera for testing. *If* there comes a FF DRF and *if* the microlenses really work well, I would expect that a lens that does well on the M8 would also do well on this FF DRF. But should such a mythical camera come to pass, I'll have a lot of retesting to do.

Cheers,

Sean

Guy Mancuso
24th November 2007, 06:47
Sharpness test coming later when I get home.

Sample

Sean_Reid
24th November 2007, 14:34
Hi Sean

Not surprised at your answer given the tremendous amount of work you produce on your site these days. And all of it really worthwhile IMO so thanks.

The only reason for my question was to test the performance of the Summarits against the fast primes in the outer zones. But your explanation of the differences in DRF to RF Film bodies is probably right on so not worth pursuing.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question and continued best with your site. I have been a subscriber for going on three years and have found it to be a wonderful way to get the information I need for RF bodies and lenses.

Best

Woody

Thanks very much Woody.

Best,

Sean

Guy Mancuso
21st December 2007, 02:11
Just bringing this back to life for some folks that wanted to look at it

Daniel
2nd January 2008, 09:17
guy,

i hope this is not off-topic.

i've been pondering on a leica set-up for many years (maybe 30 years+), and i'm now seriously looking to buy a leica set-up. i'm interested in the m8 but i'm debating between a lens at f1,4 and f2,5. i have a small collection of nikon lens for my d70 and d2x, but i always gravitate towards the 35mm focal length.

QUESTION: i like shooting in available light - relatively dim but not so dim that you can't reasonably read a menu or a book without straining your eyes. however, this is not a common shooting condition for me. with this condition in mind, may i have your input on the summilux 35 mm f1,4 and the summarit 35 mm f2,5?

thank you.

sincerely,
daniel chow
philadelphia, pa

Guy Mancuso
2nd January 2008, 09:42
Daniel it really is a great question. They have a different look among them also but the Lux 1.4 is a excellent lens and for low light hard to beat but it has some issues to . One of them is they can tend to back focus as you stop down. Now wide open they have a nice soft look to them and the corners will be soft until you stop it down to around F4 than this lens is pretty darn even across the frame. This is also a normal contrast lens or maybe even slightly lower contrast and your Cron Asph will have more contrast be very sharp wide open and the corners will be sharper at F2 than the Lux would be at f2 . So they draw a little different and by F4 they will look almost the same. Think this way LUX = softer wide open, lower contrast wide open, softer corners wide open. Great Bokeh, More character
Cron= sharp wide open, normal contrast wide open, sharper corners wide open. Nice Bokeh, More clinical in look
Now the Summarits to me seem to be the cross between them but more like the Cron in look but there slower.

If low light is primary than the Lux is the best choice , more all around than i would say the Cron and if speed is not a issue and lower budget are the concern the Summarit does a fine job and the 35mm Summarit is extremely good as we seen in this testing and if it was not 2.5 than I would be asking the same question as you. I have a older cron myself but the new ASPH Cron is one really nice lens. If I do my math correctly I think there are maybe 8 35mm focal length choices between the 3 brands. So it makes it even harder. A lot of this depends on how picky you are too, some folks care about the ever so slight difference between one or the other also.

Than you ask yourself, I do this all the time how often do you really shoot at 1.4 and how often do you take that 1.4 lens and actually shoot it at F2 or 2.8. There's the rub i wind up stopping down to f2 a lot more than 1.4 just to be safe. 1.4 on any lens is a tough deal with focusing.

Now remember a 35 lens on a M8 will be a 48mm and a 28mm will act like a 35mm. Now if you go 28mm than my personal choice is the 28 cron, just love this lens.

BTW you are perfectly on Topic. That is why we test this stuff so it makes it easier for us to make a buying decision, no one wants to waste money but when you are into this M system you have look or character choices that you don't get wityh buying Canon or Nikon, they are all the same look. With the M system you not only get choices between the Leica only glass but with Zeiss and CV so doing your homework is even harder to make a call.

Daniel
7th January 2008, 15:04
Guy,

thank you very much for your input. after thirty years of pondering on a Leica, i finally ordered mine from PopFlash.Photo. it was a very difficult decision. silly but true, my heart was racing and my hands trembling when i was adding the items to the cart. then almost fainted when i saw the confirmation bill. yet, i have a computer system that's twice the price, and this didn't phased me one bit! i guess i have off-balanced priorities.

anyway, thank you again for your input.

sincerely,
daniel

Guy Mancuso
7th January 2008, 16:20
LOL Yes i am carrying around a heart machine to give me a blast when those small heart attacks hit when I think about it.

kit laughlin
1st January 2010, 22:35
That's the real 'Guy Mancuso Starter Kit": the defibrillator! Cheers and HNY my friend, KL