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Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 12:19
Hello folks well the hardest part is done and with the Ugly test , Images thread now comes the sharpness test my last test on these lenses and there are some surprising results. i will touch on them as we go along but these lenses do perform. Now in this test you can also look at the contrast, color , saturation and dynamic range of the lenses . Not what I was testing for but it does show that also so may help seeing what you like better or worse. Now the lenses the Summarits are going against are some of Leica's finest lenses and although one lens the 35 cron pre asph version IV is a old lens with a unique look to it but in technical terms of sharpness and such it gets a nice whooping here. LOL But i still love the lens but it shows you what the new technology Leica did on the Summarits does over the old glass. Pretty interesting as you will see and you will also see why the 50 Lux ASPH is considered the best 50mm on the planet and again it does not disapoint for one second. Interesting is the 90 cron APO against the new 90 Summarit and i will explain that one when I hit he 90mm but this one has me baffled a little. I checked before actually starting the test the focus on each lens made sure it was dead on in the LCD and tweaked as needed, well either the 90 summarit is the gold standard or I missed on the 90 cron and you will see that but it is odd the results.

Now test conditions so everything is clear. Shot around 8 am in the morning in Flagstaff Arizona which is about 7200 ft up and about 25 degrees out. I shot a nice old building with the 3 sets of lenses in somewhat different spots so I had detail for the corners . The 35 I am closer than the 50 and the 90 I moved over to a window as you will see. Shot on a tripod with the self timer set for 2 seconds ISO 160 for the best results. NO WB but brought into 1.3 Lightroom and processed 3 different times with full frame and also center crop and corner crop all done in LR

Now fair WARNING this is a long test and will go into the pages of data but i want to show everything i see so please forgive the long test.

Also please wait until i am finished to post want to try and keep it all together so it is easier to read . I am doing the LUF site and GetDPI site at the same time so i can keep track of what i am posting. This is a bit difficult to do so when i give the go than please go ahead and start posting. Thanks for your understanding.

Lets start with 35mm lenses the 35mm Summarit 2.5 and the 35mm Sumicron version IV pre-asph.

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 12:24
Lets get the 35mm Cron F2 test out of the way since there is no comparisions at F2

In order Full Image
Center crop
Corner crop top left

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 12:28
Full images and the Summarits will ALWAYS BE FIRST in every post

At 2.5

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 12:30
2.5 crops center and corner

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 12:36
If you noticed the Cron is a touch wider

Okay 2.8 Full images

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 12:40
Actually I moved ever so slightly between lenses

Okay center and corner at 2.8

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 12:43
lets move on to F4 Full images

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 12:50
f4 crops

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:05
Let's do the 5.6 Full Image. As you may have noticed there is some CA in the Summarits but it pretty much goes away at f4 /5.6 . Sean and i just talked about this and he did his CA tests today but if you look at the white type you can see it on the wall.

Now one other thing I think my cron is slightly out of focus so keep that in mind. Honestly you just don't know how hard it is to get dead on and you really have to focus shift to get it just right so don't go over crazy on these,It still is very close but I know for a fact my cron is sharper . Sean and I just talked about this and if you want to get really down into the sharpness test Seans will be better because it is in the studio under very controlled res charts and bracket focusing. Now I know the 50's are dead on but the 90 is slightly off but still there is a lot of valuable data here. folks get to crazy over sharpness some time but here they all do a excellent job and it just shows you how good the Summarits are. so don't go screaming at me about sharpness i already know the cron is out just a touch.

Okay that is settled lets go to 5.6

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:08
5.6 crops center and corners

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:13
Okay f8 and you most likely will not notice much here but let's do it anyway

Full Images. Sorry if this is boring. Go get some Espresso and come back:)

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:16
Okay the crops for F8 center and corner

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:26
Whew and only 2 more lenses to go . LOL

Lets move on to the 50's . Here it is the Summarit against the 50 Lux asph. Well I nailed the focus here for sure and the 50 lux is just a killer even at 1.4 but there is also a huge price difference too. Still the Summarit is doing a excellent job.

lets get 1.4 and f2 out of the way again and than move on to the comparisions.

First the 1.4

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:32
crops from 1.4 and f2

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:35
Okay lets go to 2.5

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:39
50mm 2.5 crops

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:44
Okay on to 2.8

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:47
2.8 crops

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:50
Moving on to F4 50mm lenses

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:50
Moving on to F4 50mm lenses

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 13:56
F4 crops of the 50mm

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 14:00
Let's do the 50mm at 5.6 and i really don't think we need to do the F8 series . than i need to take a break and do some things this is taking forever to do and than post the 90's up later so go ahead and post after this and I will catch up later on the same thread

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 14:03
5.6 crops center and corners

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 14:04
Break time 90's coming up later

carstenw
26th November 2007, 14:14
Nice basis for comparison of sharpness. I do stay with my preliminary judgement, which is that the 35 Summarit looks really good compared to the Cron IV, and the 50 Lux Asph is just an amazing lens.

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 14:19
Lol agree on both counts Carsten. I will get the 90's up tonight fighting one last deadline and Quark is really pulling my hair out.

Jack
26th November 2007, 14:49
Now one other thing I think my cron is slightly out of focus so keep that in mind.

You think your Cron was out of focus???????????????????????? Just what kind of pro tester and reviewer are you? ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Just kidding Bud! I've done a *lot* of lens testing, and I know how tough it is to get everythign perfect. The good news on your 35 Cron shot, is if you look at the corner crop, you can see the rock-work at the side of the door is in focus, but the lock is out --- ergo, I assume you front-focused slightly. In fact, by f2.8, it appears to already be a non-issue even at the lock...

Cheers,

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 15:03
Thanks Bud now the 90 is coming and I KNOW it is out, never hear the end of this one. LOL

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 15:15
Okay let's continue on with the 90's . okay shoot me but the 90 cron is out just a little also. i tried getting it just right in the field but the 90 is a tough bear to get critical, I know the 90 apo is a killer lens , i have hundreds of awesome sharp images from it and i think it front focused a little here even checking the LCD several times to make sure. oh well sorry folks but the rest of the data is still very valid but by F4 it is all good so lets get the 90 going

90 cron at F2 since there is no comparison here let's get all three sections up at F2 on the Cron.


If you want to wait until i get them up that would be nice before posting

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 15:19
Okay here is the 90 summarrit at 2.5 and the 90 cron Apo Full image

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 15:25
90 2.5 crops center and corner

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 15:29
90's at 2.8 full image

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 15:32
90mm 2.8 crops center and corners

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 15:34
90mm at F4 full images

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 15:37
90mm crops at F4 center and corners. Folks are you seeing the CA around the letters.

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 15:41
Okay last series at 5.6 . I don't see a need for the F8 unless someone really wants it up there

90 at 5.6 full image

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 15:43
90mm 5.6 crops center and corners

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 15:50
Well that is it for testing , I will process some grab shots with just the Summarits in this thread also . First like to thank you for your time and patience and also would really like to thank the folks at Leica for sending me the lenses to give them a full run at them, there on there way back to NJ . Also i should add my theory on buying any camera gear don't go by one review that you see but several reviews and think of it as a puzzle that you need to put together and figure out what is best for you. These Summarits perform and they perform well and see no reason not to have anyone of them in the bag. Please also check out Seans review on these also and between use and Mark trying out the 75mm you should be able to get that puzzle solved to figure out what you need or want. Regards Guy

cmb_
26th November 2007, 16:24
Nice work Guy and thanks for taking the time to do all this. All 3 Summarits seem to be good performers. One thing I like about the Cron IV is the rendering is somewhat more mellow compared to the Summarit and I could see that being very desirable in certain situations.

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 16:32
The cron version IV also renders nicely in B&W. It's a tough to make a call on some of these because they are pretty close to some of there counterparts. The one nice thing i have noticed throughout is there is not a bad apple among them. Leica did a nice job on these and for those that don't want to spend the big dollars leica itself gives you a option to stay in the Leica family. These are coded and ready to shoot , something to be said by that alone. Now I noticed a little CA in some of the lenses which reality is a easy fix and won't always be there in every shot but I am glad it turned up so you all can see that.

BTW the whole series of these will be at the Moab workshop along with everything else leica makes so if you are attending you will get a chance to give them a go. leica does support our workshops and Linda and Jim will be there with there whole demo kit for the folks attending to try them out.

Terry
26th November 2007, 16:33
What a pain in the butt this must have been! Glad they worked well. It definitely adds a new wrinkle to lens decisions for those just starting with the M8!

Guy Mancuso
26th November 2007, 16:43
It sure is let me tell ya. LOL but than again i enjoyed playing around too. Just took a load of time.

Guy Mancuso
27th November 2007, 05:12
Right after shooting the test i just grabbed the 3 Summarits and got slap happy and shot everything around me. Not portfiolio pieces but just wanted to push the damn button. LOL

Okay look out servers here they come

35mm Summarit

Guy Mancuso
27th November 2007, 05:15
2 more 35 Summarits than 2 50 shots

Guy Mancuso
27th November 2007, 05:18
Than i went crazy with the 90 Summarit . i obviously liked this lens as you will see

Guy Mancuso
27th November 2007, 05:21
Even more 90 summarits:D

Jack
27th November 2007, 12:54
You got to love the way this 90 Summarit paints... Oh man, I see another M lens in my near future LOLOLOLOL! Stay tuned :rolleyes:

Guy Mancuso
27th November 2007, 13:42
Oh crap here we go. Actually I have to say that darn 90 has me thinking too but the 75mm maybe the ticket.



Now i am going to bring this up and folks are going to think i lost my mind. As i shot all three Summarits , I never blew an exposure. Now i have put 20k or more images through the M8 and i have had my share of blowouts but I can't recall missing a image shooting these because of the metering and folks I have been living on A mode and i never use any compensation. Now i honestly don't know what is going on and I hate to even bring it up but every image shot with the Summarits has never blown out , maybe a little under if anything. I have no explanation and maybe i am just damn lucky but these are also easy to focus and i only blew focusing the first day with the 90mm and that was the golf stuff, since than i have not missed, I can't explain that either. Now i will say i can focus better than most can but still that is pretty amazing. Now saying this in public is not easy because i can't back any of it up to a certain degree but i have been deadly with these lenses. Is it me or is it Memorex who the hell knows but I do like these lenses because of this. Okay flame suit on, I can take it. LOL

Guy Mancuso
27th November 2007, 14:02
Okay since i started this let me give you my impressions since this my home and you our members are a part of it.

I could be wrong but leica made these for digital capture , everything I have seen so far has been saturated very nicely. Not overblown contrast and specular highlights well controlled and snappy looking. Seems the pushed the midtones out some but held the highlights. other things i have noticed is there look between each 3 lenses i have tested there identical in look across the board. this is very nice if you have the whole set so you know what to expect. Okay Bokeh this area surprised me to be honest i was expecting clunky and we got smooth bokeh. If I did not have the 35 cron version IV which i really like i would be all over the 35mm Summarit because of the nice smooth bokeh and other features . Also one other thing I noticed is color, white is white coming out of the camera . I know we can adjust that but white buildings come up white not off white. Clear examples in this thread alone. If you did not know this I have yet to WB a single image unless i said so in a test . All these casual shots in the last series no WB and done in LR the only thing i did do was use recover and fill to balance the shot better.

Now I am not trying to sell anyone anything , not my job and if you buy or don't it so fine by me, we all know I beta test for Leica and i have many friends there but i will always be honest in my opinion of there products. i do think you need to look at these though because they are different looking than some of the other leica glass, maybe not as soft as some we really love like the Lux glass in the wide area's but still they have a look that I like in different jobs I shoot. I think folks you need to go back in the threads both this one and the ugly test and really study what they are doing

Mark Gowin
27th November 2007, 16:49
Looking at the deep blue sky in the photo of the Motel Downtowner reminds me why you sold your polarizing filter to me. For some reason I really like the clean, rich, and sharp look of that photo.

Guy Mancuso
27th November 2007, 17:46
Shot at F4 Mark. I'm really consider selling my 90 cron though for the Summarit and i will tell you why , focusing. The cron is a beauty but I shoot lots of events with the 90 cron and main reason I have it but i miss sometimes and the 90 sum i don't miss at all. It has me wondering because here i can't afford to miss a shot

carstenw
27th November 2007, 23:14
Guy, why don't you set the Cron to f/2.4 and see how you get along? I cannot imagine that the lenses are different to focus; it is the same rangefinder! It must be the DOF.

Guy Mancuso
28th November 2007, 03:51
Not so sure it is that , more in the focusing ring the Summarit just seems to snap in better. I have a trade in the works and just need to decide to pull the trigger. I have the 75 lux for the soft look the 90mm is a podium lens for me with events and here i just can't miss much.

Jack
28th November 2007, 06:52
I bought a Sumarit yesterday LOLOLOL! Here is my initial reaction to the focus thing Guy is talking about --- it's real!

What I believe is it's the focus throw. The Summarit has a shorter focus throw and this in turn means faster moving RF patches when focusing. Normally this equates to less granularity in fine focus which one would infer meant less precision. However in use, at least on the M8, the RF patch just snaps in and out more visibly with the Summarit and it's easier to get aligned. I shot mine last night in low light conditions wide open, comparing it to my 90 Cron at f2.5. This was low inside lighting, hand-held at between 1/45th and 1/60th, most subjects in the 2 to 5 meter range, the sweet spot where I personally use my 90 the most.

Bottom line was I nailed every focus with the Summarit --- well not nailed, but at least every image was focused more than closely enough for that light level hand-held imaging purposes. By contrast, I missed focus on about 50% of the Cron shots by enough the images showed it at critical points.

I am going to do more precise testing today off a tripod...

Guy Mancuso
28th November 2007, 07:04
LOL . See i was not pulling your leg. i am going to go for the trade and just do it today.I just have to have my 90 nail it every time for what i am using it mostly for. Client satisfaction decision. There is my business case. LOL

Mark Gowin
28th November 2007, 07:08
Guy or Jack, do you have a photo which compares the size between the 90mm Summarit and 90mm Cron? The small size of the 75mm Summarit surprised me when I first opened the box. I immediately thought of the 50 Summilux in terms of size. If the 90mm Summarit is considerably smaller and lighter, then that would be a huge consideration for me. I only shoot my 90mm Cron at f2 when absolutely needed for low light. Otherwise, i shoot it at f2.8 to f4.0 just to give myself some margin of error (bigger DOF) in focusing.

EDIT: By the way, the 75mm Summarit focus throw from minimum distance to infinity is slightly less than 90 degrees

Guy Mancuso
28th November 2007, 07:19
Mark I think there in the Ugly test thread the size comparisions

Mark Gowin
28th November 2007, 07:37
Thanks Guy, you were correct. Somehow I missed the size comparison in the ugly test first time around. Looking at the comparison photo reminded me of another feature I liked about the 75 Summarit which is also on the 90 Summarit and that is the large wide focus ring.

Guy Mancuso
28th November 2007, 07:52
I just got a note from Christian on another matter than told him never to send me lenses again, i wind up buying them. ROTFLMAO

I'm sure he is having a good laugh and my dollar expense. LOL

Guy Mancuso
28th November 2007, 10:30
Well a done deal . LOL anyone want to trade a 55 IR for a 46mm. ROTFLMAO

Jack
28th November 2007, 10:41
Thought I'd follow up with my 90 Summarit test results, comparing directly to my 90 Cron AA...

First off, getting two identical images from each, both perfectly focused is almost impossible --- or at least requires more work than I'm willing to give it. LOL! However, I was able to get two very similar image where both lenses were in focus at similar enough points to generate a meaningful comparison. Here's my summary:

Resolution and Contrast: Comparing the lenses at f2.5, the Cron clearly exhibits more contrast, though I wouldn't call the Summarit's contrast bad by any stretch, just lower. As respects resolution, the Cron may be a slight tad sharper in the center, though it's difficult to say for certain given it's higher contrast. But the fact is they are close. Similar results were seen at f2.8. By f3.5 the difference between the two lenses diminishes a bit, though follows the same trend. By f4 they are essentially identical in resolution, though the Cron maintains a slight contrast advantage.

Ergonomics: This is mostly academic and will vary according to each individuals preferences. That said, here is what I think. The Summarit's size gives it an ergonomic advantage, and the focus ring and aperture ring are conveniently placed and spaced. By contrast, the Cron's aperture ring is maybe a bit too close to the focus ring for my fat fingers. The Summarit is lighter and more compact, but honestly not huge differences, noticeable for sure though. However, many will prefer the added weight of the Cron for increased inertia/stability while handholding at lower shutter speeds. Toss up here... Have to admit the rubber ring on the Summarit does feel "cheaper" than the knurled metal ring on the Cron, though it does provide a nice grip. Another toss-up IMO. Focus throw --- the Summarit's is much faster at about 90 degrees of focus ring twist to get from 1 meter to Infinity. With the Cron, you are about 150 degrees of twist to cover the same range. More twist equal finer granularity equal more fine precision in critical focus; faster twist equal faster focusing in action situations. Pay your money and take your choice.

So to answer which one I am keeping, I need to qualify my reasoning. If I used the 90 focal length a lot, I would possibly keep both lenses. I like the imaging characteristics of the Cron and of course it is a phenomenal performer wide open at f2. F2 gives a paper-thin DoF, more so than f2.5, so for isolation's its tough to beat. Now let's discuss cost. The fact is a good used Cron AA is only a few hundred more than a new Summarit, and I would not expect to see many second hand Summarits at greatly reduced costs any time soon. So you get outstanding performance and an extra half stop for a couple hundred bucks. Makes the Cron tough to beat.

On the other hand, I don't use the 90 that often, and when I do it is usually hand held, isolating something from the environment --- and I usually use at least f2.8 to insure the subject falls within the focused DoF. Which gets down to one more factor --- focus throw. For the way I use the 90, I simply prefer the shorter throw; I can focus faster with it and most of the time am within that limited DoF area with the Summarit. It's a tough call, but due to the smaller size, the Summarit is likely to be in my bag when I want it, so that's the one I've decided to keep.

My Cron is for sale in the B&S section.

Cheers,

Guy Mancuso
28th November 2007, 11:30
My reason is also the shorter throw that put me over the edge.

Terry
28th November 2007, 14:14
Two for two in keeping the lens. I find this result very interesting. Did you get the leica hood? Where does the hood screw into? Is there a simple way to store it in your bag? Lens cap with hood?

Guy Mancuso
28th November 2007, 14:25
Mutt and Jeff we both went down the river and bought the 90 Summarits. Terry there are no hoods yet and not sure what the heck they even look like. I may just use a metal screw in like the 28mm. BTW i have a extra one for you and the 28 if you need it, just found one in a box. I'm waiting to get more info on the hoods , if anyone can point me in that direction that would be handy but I know a 46mm will screw into the filter if all else fails.

Guy Mancuso
28th November 2007, 14:40
Found this

cmb_
28th November 2007, 14:49
Guy, Here is some info on the hoods, last page:
http://www.umbrastudio.net/html/assets/pdf/summarit.pdf

Hood for the 35 & 50 Leica Order No. 12459
Hood for the 75 & 90 Leica Order No. 12460

Link for B&H Summarit 90 Hood (Out of Stock though):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?shs=leica+12460&ci=0&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=productlist.jsp&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t

cmb_
28th November 2007, 14:49
LOL I just sent that to you while you were posting

Jack
28th November 2007, 16:04
Mutt and Jeff we both went down the river

Oh man Bud... Now we're never gonna live this one down :(

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jack
28th November 2007, 16:13
Two for two in keeping the lens. I find this result very interesting. Did you get the leica hood? Where does the hood screw into? Is there a simple way to store it in your bag? Lens cap with hood?

Hi Terry!

The lens is pretty sweet for what it is. Keep in mind both of us have the 75 Lux. Frankly, the 75 and 90 are really close in focal length even after the 1.3 crop --- 75 is like 100mm while the 90 is 120. Not a lot of difference when you get right down to it, so it made sense to opt for a smaller lighter version on one, and the Summarit only gives up a 1/2 stop to the Cron for the weight gain; stop and a half with the 75's...

On the hood, I just ordered one of the HeavyStar metal screw ins off ebay. For as little as they cost, I like them a lot. I have one on my 21, 28 and 50, and store my lenses in my bag with the hoods mounted, no caps. The rigid metal hoods protect the front element so caps aren't really necessary --- plus the lenses are ready to shoot with quickly. A short blast of canned air every evening keeps the front elements free of scuz build-up.

:)

Guy Mancuso
28th November 2007, 18:17
Jack in my searching for hoods i found you a hood for your 12mm and Terry I found you one for your 28 cron. Merry Christmas early.:)

Guy Mancuso
28th November 2007, 18:24
My decision was based on the 75 is my portrait lens and i simple don't miss focus ever with the 75mm lux don't ask me why i just don't , i could not say that for the 90 cron and i like the short throw of the 90 summarit and i just did not miss with it. These lenses are so close in focal length i would rather they be differnt styles and for event work the 75 is to close to the podium so the 90 is a must.

Guy Mancuso
29th November 2007, 05:00
BTW i asked leica if they can send a 75 Summarit to me when one becomes available since I did not get a chance to try it the first time, hopefully that will be soon.

Guy Mancuso
29th November 2007, 05:57
Does anyone know if there are any Summarit hoods available , i want one for the 90mm. More money down the black hole

cmb_
29th November 2007, 19:22
Guy, Although this would not meet the compact travel requirement, to be fair you should at least test the Elcan 90mm f/1.0 against the Summarit. After all, it is a Mandler design! :)

Some links:
http://www.arsenal-photo.hk/ge/product.asp?pid=13972&pg=1&cat1=1&cat2=218&cat3=2&catx=0&keys=&size=&sort=&dir=#

http://auction.igavel.com/Bidding.taf?_function=detail&Auction_uid1=628744&_UserReference=7F00000146B4582A0E7CBAE5DE9043CBE65 A/

carstenw
29th November 2007, 22:21
There goes the rangefinder view :) I don't understand exactly how anyone but the infinity or nothing folks would use that. Minimal depth of field, only one sharp distance (apart from infinity) and no way to know where it is...

Guy Mancuso
30th November 2007, 05:14
Have to sell both cars for that one. :D WOW that has a price tag