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Jack
9th May 2011, 14:35
So what do I think of the real production unit? Let me first deal with a few of the obvious considerations I went through before upgrading from my P65+. First is did I want to spend the coin for the upgrade? Heck no!!! Am I glad I spent for the upgrade? Well...

-- Resolution detail.

It's impressive, but we pretty much covered that in our original review (see here for that: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23200) so no surprises. Even after our preliminary review showed it, I've had a few questions as to whether the lenses are up to the sensor. I can reaffirm for you that they are. I'll add that even marginal lenses can hold up quite well. Here is a shot with the worst lens in my bag, a non-D version of the 35mm AF, but a decent enough copy of it. This is not a great shot and the light was terrible for the subject (backlit), but it shows how the new IQ180 might deal with some of your legacy glass. 1/40th at f12, ISO 35, shadows pushed about 1 stop in C1:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/machadoschool_0813.jpg

And a center crop. Clearly not the greatest lens, clearly not anywhere near the class of high-resolution tech camera lenses, but I think this would hold up pretty well in even a large print:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/machadocropctr.jpg

-- Color.

While color is a very subjective thing, I say here without hesitation in one word, the color is phenomenal -- at least out of C1! The passport is spot on and very neutral. Daylight comes in at 4998/0.0 which is where it should be. From a personal point, I like a slightly warmer tone to daylight so have saved my basic C1 Style at 5080/0.8. The two main profiles I use are Flash and Outdoor Daylight. Historically, Phase's OD is a larger space with more saturated blues and greens than Flash, and while I have not examined them, it seems to be holding to that convention here. My OD style did not need any saturation boost, whereas if I wanted to use Flash for outdoors, I would bump sat maybe 4 points. I'll let the color geeks research the camera profiles more fully -- what I know is I like the color coming straight off the back a lot!

I've been asked if the color is smoother than the P65+. For those not aware, one of the main reasons I upgraded to the P65+ from the P45+ was its smoother rendering of color -- a common term several of us used to describe it was "more film-like." I am not going to claim (yet) that the IQ180 is smoother still, but it may well be. What I will say about it is it certainly is not any less so.

-- Dynamic Range and shadow detail.

So here is a wart for the super critical out there: If you over-sharpen and add clarity to an ISO 35 file and peer deep into the lowest levels of the image with your monitor brightness cranked up, you can get visible shadow NOISE from the IQ180! But you also get (usable) image detail in those shadows where my P65+ would have only given me black!

Full image:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/grafitti_f12-iso35-25th_0822.jpg

Here's the crop -- if you look deep into the shadows you can see some noise -- this comes from a clarity bump and sharpening bump over my normal C1 settings while retaining my normally low NR settings. If you crank the brightness up on your display (or push the raw file in C1), you can read the sign on the inside wall in the deepest shadow between the fence rails. At normal monitor brightness (around 140 lumens) we only have a hint the sign is even there:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/grafitticrop.jpg

To save you all the trouble of adjusting your monitor, here is a similar crop from the same file reprocessed in C1 with exposure bumped to C1's 2.5 stop max, but without the added clarity and sharpening. Note the noise is there, but for all intents and purposes it is trivial even at this extreme shadow push:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/grafitticropplus2.jpg

To say I am amazed at the data I can pull out of the shadows is an understatement. So while it's very, very nice -- like the best I've ever seen nice -- I am not fully convinced. Yet...

Jack
13th May 2011, 10:16
Did I need the added resolution? No. Did I want the added resolution? Not really.

But now that I have it, it's really nice. What is especially nice for me and my uses came as a total surprise --- 20MP of Sensor+ capability. I offed my full-frame DSLR's over a year ago and most of my hand-held, walk-around shooting is done with a Panasonic GH2 kit. I never considered my Phase a viable "walking around" camera simply due to size and slowness of use coupled with the fact that hand-holding is hard on ultra-high resolution! Higher ISO's certainly help, but a lot of the time effective ones are too noisy to be worth using. So when the back arrived I slapped it on my body and figured I'd give it a few quick tests hand-held, so higher ISO's and Sensor Plus were the order of the day. Here are a few images then the crops -- Note that these are HAND HELD, Phase DF body with 80mm LS lens:

First is a simple pepper plant that had hold-overs from last year. This is the 80LS at f4, 1/100th and full-frame ISO 400. I left my C1 NR settings at my normals for base ISO, and you can see a bit of color noise in the crop. Ideally I should probably process it pushing Color NR up to around 30, but I decided to leave it as-is for a more extreme example to share:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/pepper.jpg

Here is the crop. Since this crop was the pepper I was AF-ing on, I was pleased with the result. And it took me a sec to figure out those white specs: we had some painting done a month ago and the painters set up a spray area for the cabinet doors about 20 yards from this plant --- the specs are overspray from that:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/peppercrop.jpg

So how did the higher ISOs with S+ work? Let's just say I am satisfied to the point of being impressed. We do have an improvement over the P65+, at least from my perspective. Here is an indoor shot that is dimmer than it appears in the image, it is evening out and no inside lights are on, so this is lit by North-facing windows and a few small skylights. This time 1/125th at f4, ISO 1600 S+. I did crop and slightly rotate the base image in C1, so it is a touch smaller than full frame, but of course the crop is at 100% pixel view:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/s_iso1600_0809_1.jpg

Crop. C1 settings for noise were 25 L and 40 C:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/iso1600s_crop.jpg

In my opinion, that is pushing up pretty well on DSLR territory for high-ISO noise. Bottom line is I am now looking forward to using my "big camera" more in hand-held and walk-around situations. So I am a little more convinced. And yes, I can feel the heat of Dante's Inferno from here!

Jack
13th May 2011, 10:17
Did I need the new tech? No -- but if I shot with a tech camera, I would consider it a must-have. Did I want the new tech? Uh, heck yes!

And I didn't realize how much I wanted it until I had it! Saying I didn't need the tech on this new back is like saying I didn't need a histogram or saying I don't need my iPhone because I have a 12-button desk phone -- it is a correct statement, but this new tech makes life really, really easy. Bottom line is it allows you to get the technical aspects of image making out of your way quickly so you can focus on the art part -- and it can even help on the art part!

And the LCD is so big and bright and beautiful.

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/biglcd.jpg

A quick double-tap and you can check focus:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/checkfocus.jpg

Note that my shots of the back above and below are not the greatest, and the slight blur above is not the IQ180's image -- it is sharp -- but rather the fault is from my hand-holding my GH2 at slow shutter speeds for these snaps of the screen on my back.

On any main menu screen, if you click the little icon in the lower RH corner you get a set of context menus. Here is the the set from inside the "play" menu. From this, any of the icons with an arrow in the upper RH corner means there are settings available if you press and hold that button. In this case you can see the gridline icon and trash/rating buttons have additional features and settings available:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/contextmenu.jpg

Next feature is if you press and hold any of the sidebar icons, you get into their settings. Here is an example showing the histogram. Note the arrows above an below are for moving this icon to the position in the sidebar menu you want it in:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/sidebarmenu.jpg

Let's go to the "play" screen, this one with the highlight warning on. The red area flashes showing you portions of the image where any channel has a value above what you set. In my case I have 250 set as my threshold, and the blue channel in this image is above that so it is flashing red:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/highlight.jpg

Here is another example, but this time with the focus mask in green. My typical threshold settings are between 30 and 40 and I have sort of settled on 35 as my current indicator. You can see the "green" confirmation zone extends from the foreground into the background informing me I have good depth of focus in the image. Note that if I set my threshold to 30 I see a more green and if I set it to 40 I see less:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/focus_333914.jpg

One thing I like very much is the highlight warning shows inside the button even when you have it turned off for the main viewing screen -- this works for me because I do not like stuff disrupting the view in main composition screen. And by the way, you can set the warnings to flash or remain steady in the button or screen at your choice. Unfortunately, the focus mask does not work similarly -- you need to turn it on, then it becomes active both inside the button and the main screen. I am sending a request in to get that in the next firmware revision if possible.

Note I also had the gridlines turned on, and these are set to standard 3x3. You can custom make just about arrangement of vertical and horizontal lines you want or use the pre-packaged set which includes a Golden Mean grid and Fibonacci Spiral option. You can alter the style and color of the lines as well. In short, very customizable.

Here is the Fibonacci spiral -- note I did not use it when I shot the image, and was surprised when I saw it fit this image pretty well -- obviously had I been using it, I would have made some minor modifications to the composition -- I'll definitely be investigating the use of this "artistic aid" tool further:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/fibonaccispiral.jpg

Finally and wait for it -- if you press the sidebar histo button it goes to full screen. Hows this for a nice, big, easy to read histo? I know, I know, it's about friggin time!

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/histo.jpg

Oh, and before I forget, battery life is better than I expected -- appears to be 4 or 5 hours of continuous use which is impressive to me considering all the chimping and investigating I've been doing on the big, beautiful and glorious LCD!

Yeah, I've fallen in and can't get out... Pick your own adjectives, but this back is awesome, phenomenal and amazing. Do whatever you need to do to get in line. And for everybody who already is in line, you are sure to be extremely happy with your decision!

Terry
13th May 2011, 11:45
Jack,
Have you needed to adjust anything in your C1 settings or workflow?

GrahamWelland
13th May 2011, 11:47
Jack

Thanks for including the detailed screen shots. These really help in showing the utility of the new tech features.

One thing I noticed was that Phase One stayed with the regular linear exposure histogram with equal empahsis on shadows, mid tones and highlights. I'm surprised that they haven't yet considered a histogram view that expands the shadow/highlight areas to make it easier to dial in exposure to the right or gauging shadow cut off - I know that I normally don't care too much about the position mid tones too much so long as I'm not clipping.

The focus mask looks like a winner although I'd be interested in seeing how well it does with low contrast images.

Nice review! :thumbs:

Jack
13th May 2011, 11:49
Jack,
Have you needed to adjust anything in your C1 settings or workflow?

Not significantly. I did create a revised "Style" for the IQ180, choosing it's OD profile and slightly warmer starting WB of 5080/0.8. For right now my base sharpening and noise reduction settings for the P65+ -- which are very slight to begin with -- seem very good on the IQ180 too.

PS: So I understand you got to play with one a little earlier today -- what did you think of it?

Jack
13th May 2011, 11:52
Jack
snip

I'm surprised that they haven't yet considered a histogram view that expands the shadow/highlight areas to make it easier to dial in exposure to the right or gauging shadow cut off - I know that I normally don't care too much about the position mid tones too much so long as I'm not clipping.


Nice review! :thumbs:

Thanks Graham,

Yes indeed, a big histo where we could truncate the central 60% to a thin line and have the bottom and top 20% at an expanded view scale would be very, very sweet.

Terry
13th May 2011, 12:17
PS: So I understand you got to play with one a little earlier today -- what did you think of it?


:) I posted that in another thread. Bottom line....very happy. Happy that I decided to upgrade early in the process and that I'm close to the top of the list. Focus mask is transformational for untethered tech shooters especially those that like to use tilt and swing.

Jack
13th May 2011, 12:28
I'll go out on a thin limb and say that focus mask itself eliminates the concern of "shimming" tech cameras for precise focus. They'll still need to be square and parallel, but the gains from shimming are somewhat neutered. Also, while I like the Arca fine focus, it may be obviated somewhat with the new focus mask -- quicker focus racks may be accurate enough with the mask and review capabilities. Heck, older view or tech cameras should work adequately well now having these tools for confirmation! Possibilities expand :)

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 12:29
I wanted to add my impressions here as well as we can keep this all in one thread.

Short story Dave Gallagher and Doug Peterson from Capture Integration came into Phoenix for C1 tech training and brought there IQ 180 demo which pretty much never got out of my slimy fingers the whole time. But we did get to have some fun and give this a go. I did hire a model for us and we did get some decent shooting in. Little hard under the gun with a brand new piece of technology to deal with but we got some images in various conditions. So I am going to post from another thread over to here to fill in the gaps of Jacks great review he started.

here we go!!!!!!!

Check this out Sensor Plus ISO 1600 at 4.5 heavily backlit with fill reflector that was barely working this is with a 210mm that I just bought from Dave it seems now. I bought his demo since this lens is really nice. I don't take chances if a lens I test is good than it's mine. LOL

This is pretty much at default I did work on exposure but not noise and will get into this more. But Dave, Doug and I did everything we could do to make this fail and everything looks like it held up to our cruelty . Makes no sense to make pretty pictures under ideal conditions when your testing. I always try to make these things fail because you just never know what soup you are in. Now Doug and I will be doing a lot of post both here and on Capture Integration site on his review as well . But I know i can make this file even better but that is not what I want to show right now. I want more or less whats coming off the sensor. This is damn good given it is heavily backlit.

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000779_1.jpg

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 12:29
Notice no blooming no CA nothing bad. Lots more to come, BTW this is a F4 lens that is NOT highly rated either by many. Every lens I shot with the 180 so far has actually held up. Surprises me

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 12:30
Okay a 80 mpx shot . Not sure i totally nailed focus but it is damn close. Shot with the 110mm LS at F5.6 which is fairly wide open ISO 100 at 1/160.

Only White Balance here . Let it go on DR and look how well it handled the bright sun in background with just some reflector light and the shadows are wide open. This thing has some serious DR going on.

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000638_355817.jpg

100 percent crop.

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/untitled-1_136265.jpg

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 12:31
From the ISO 1600 file in Sensor Plus

Default Crop

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/default_image.jpg


Noise reduction and i maybe able to get better Luminance 30 color 55 single pixel 2 surface 27

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/nouse_reduce.jpg

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 12:32
a quote from Veri


Thanks a lot Guy, that is pretty impressive indeed for a ISO 1600 20 MP image - one more question, besides the specs which I know, how fast does the IQ180 feel in Sensor Plus mode as far as shot-to-shot times go? I mean, do you ever feel like it leaves you waiting? I shoot a lot of concerts in very low light, and while ISO 1600 would do the trick (barely with f4 lenses, better with f2.8 glass) I also need some shot-to-shot speed & fast enough AF (but this I can live without, I often use old Nikkors in MF without any problem)... thanks!
__________________
Best, Vieri

portfolios: www.madshutter.com, extended galleries: www.pbase.com/vieripbase


No not in sensor plus feels pretty good on speed, go as fast as the DF goes. The Df is very good with AF in low light. The 150 D 2.8 would be a excellent lens and don't forget the 300 4.5 which is very very good wide open. I'm actually surprised by the 210 F4 wide open. Reason I am keeping Daves demo unit is I got a nice shot wide open with it. I need to test it more but for 500/600 bucks I'm impressed. Honestly if i push myself to the 160 the sony's are toast. 15 mpx sensor plus would be perfect for me and the 180 with 20mpx looks to be a bonus.

In all honesty the IQ 180 is amazing but maybe too much for me with my work and setup. But it is the better deal for the P65+ users to upgrade and frankly they should go straight for it. Silly not too. I'm just trying to get to the 160 which i maybe able to pull off with a miracle. LOL

It is really what I want and completely solves my issues. I may have to wait a bit but that is okay. One time for me to be smart and wait it out. Can't believe the gear slut just said that. Need more espresso

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 12:37
One thing we did find last night in the menus was a eyepicker tool on the back so you can custom WB on the fly, just move around to pick your area to WB off of. Now that was a find to say the least. Not sure that was posted anywhere and one other REALLY cool feature Doug picked up on. While shooting a long exposure during the dark frame you can actually go in and preview the image at 100 percent. So basically you have a 1 minute shot you do not have to wait 2 minutes to view it just after the initial exposure and you can see what you did. This is very nice feature as you can already plan any adjustments you may need for the next shot.

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 12:42
Have more images to process and post and will get to them soon. Life is getting in the way of fun. LOL

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 13:35
This is pretty interesting. I was actually testing the 210 F4 lens here and I was at F4 wide open and was shot handheld and proved to me this was a good lens but more important I shot this at ISO 35 and was a stop underexposed and there is no true black in this frame not a thing that is clipped on the low side. I can see all the detail in all the shadow areas and no highlights clipped either. That is some serious DR folks. This would have clipped with anything else out there.

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000470.jpg

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 13:38
Just in case you where wondering its not to bad for handheld

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/crop_129933.jpg

dougpeterson
13th May 2011, 13:50
Now that was a find to say the least. Not sure that was posted anywhere and one other REALLY cool feature Doug picked up on. While shooting a long exposure during the dark frame you can actually go in and preview the image at 100 percent. So basically you have a 1 minute shot you do not have to wait 2 minutes to view it just after the initial exposure and you can see what you did. This is very nice feature as you can already plan any adjustments you may need for the next shot.

Minor correction here: when you start a 2 minute exposure (or any other long exposure) the user interface is still active/available and you can review images. However, since you'd be insane to be touching/grouping around on the camera during the exposure it's kind of a moot point. But after the 2 minute exposure is done and the back is doing it's black frame the fact the user interface is still available means you can go back and review/edit/tag previous images. The image you're shooting at-that-moment is not available to review until AFTER the black frame is complete.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
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dougpeterson
13th May 2011, 13:52
Also quick note to anyone who has or gets to play with any Sensor+ files from the IQ180: the noise reduction in 6.2 is much better than 6.1.1 for ISO3200 and ISO3200 files that are being pushed. Specifically the reduction of single red pixels using the sing-pixel noise slider.

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 13:56
Minor correction here: when you start a 2 minute exposure (or any other long exposure) the user interface is still active/available and you can review images. However, since you'd be insane to be touching/grouping around on the camera during the exposure it's kind of a moot point. But after the 2 minute exposure is done and the back is doing it's black frame the fact the user interface is still available means you can go back and review/edit/tag previous images. The image you're shooting at-that-moment is not available to review until AFTER the black frame is complete.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/) | RSS Feed (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)

Maybe I twisted my meaning there. LOL Thanks Doug

cmb_
13th May 2011, 14:05
Great info here, thanks to all.

vieri
13th May 2011, 14:09
Thank you very much Jack, Guy & Doug for the great infos into what more and more looks like a huge step forward in DB technology! :D now that you done and almost convinced me to go and shell out for it, you are welcome to send either ~10euro-K (cash would do) or a full-time marriage counselor... :ROTFL:

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 14:11
I just started a new knitting class for all GetDPI members for free to make there custom Ski masks. We meet on Sunday's to knit and pray we don't get caught.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

BTW the Chase bank down the street does not know me. LOL

vieri
13th May 2011, 14:27
I just started a new knitting class for all GetDPI members for free to make there custom Ski masks. We meet on Sunday's to knit and pray we don't get caught.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

BTW the Chase bank down the street does not know me. LOL

Is it open to online attendants as well? :ROTFL::ROTFL:

cmb_
13th May 2011, 14:30
Guy, please buy the IQ160 and not the IQ140 so I can buy it from you when you are ready for your next upgrade! :) The new screen would really be helpful. I focus-bracket so much now just to be sure - zooming to check focus is no picnic on the old backs and time consuming. The focus mask looks wonderful.

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 14:35
Is it open to online attendants as well? :ROTFL::ROTFL:

Sure they take euro clients. LOL

Guy Mancuso
13th May 2011, 14:36
Guy, please buy the IQ160 and not the IQ140 so I can buy it from you when you are ready for your next upgrade! :) The new screen would really be helpful. I focus-bracket so much now just to be sure - zooming to check focus is no picnic on the old backs and time consuming. The focus mask looks wonderful.

Charlie the focus mask screams I got it. You need to go see one

Jack
13th May 2011, 16:12
One more image with a short story, then off to a cocktail. I mentioned the new tech getting out of your way to creating images. When shooting the grafitti buildings near the train track, I was on the pod, had MLU and self-timer set and was shooting ISO 35 stopped down for DoF. Then I heard it, a train coming fast. Crap and here I am with a new back and sluggish MF cam. I whipped off MLU and self timer while running with my pod to this position, quickly framed and AF'd on the tracks mid frame and saw my exposure was 1/25th at f12. Crap. But now just a quick flip of the aperture wheel to f9 and two taps on the rear LCD and I had ISO 100 for 1/200th at f9. I had a good 8 seconds to spare to watch the viewfinder and grab this image.

No, the composition is not stellar, but it could have been better if it had been a grungy old freight train instead of an ugly commuter. But I think the story will be familiar to many -- how many times have we missed a moment because of unfamiliarity with new gear? I know I have, but this time I was familiar with the camera and the new back was so intuitive to use it got out of my way and let me focus on the image.

And yes, I took some processing liberties to dress it up. I also will admit I had the 55 LS on and it was a tad short for this composition, so I cropped to about what the P40+ frame would be --- and I still have about a 54MP file!!!

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/train.jpg

Okay, Friday martini time -- enjoy your weekend!

GrahamWelland
14th May 2011, 00:46
Warning! Do NOT look at these docs: http://www.phaseone.com/en/SupportMain/Manuals/Manuals_DB.aspx
:angel::watch:

Digitalcameraman
14th May 2011, 02:12
Jack and Guy:

Thanks you both for a very informative recap of your impressions on the release Phase One IQ180 Digital camera back. I really like Jack's approach in showing how is is using some the new features to help him make better captures.

That Focus mask rocks. I found it amazing that when I shot 10 images on a DF 645 with 110 lens with that same IQ180 Guy was using this week, I focused them manual at different depths. And when you understand how to use the focus mask, you see the focus change in each shot. It is very reliable. And I think it will aid all users, not just tech and view camera users.

I was at Snaps in Orlando last weekend and I had a fashion photographer shooting tethered with the IQ180 and I turned the focus mask on and she was able to see how to selectively focus with a Cambo X2 with a 180mm RZ lens attached. She could see that on the monitor 6-8 feet away and make adjustments on the fly.

This forum continues to provide the photographer with informative, unbiased technical information that allows others to gain valuable experience through your research. Thank You for that guys.



Sincerely,

Chris Snipes
Sales Manager, Florida
Capture Integration
http://www.captureintegration.com

2010 Phase One Partner of the Year
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One more image with a short story, then off to a cocktail. I mentioned the new tech getting out of your way to creating images. When shooting the grafitti buildings near the train track, I was on the pod, had MLU and self-timer set and was shooting ISO 35 stopped down for DoF. Then I heard it, a train coming fast. Crap and here I am with a new back and sluggish MF cam. I whipped off MLU and self timer while running with my pod to this position, quickly framed and AF'd on the tracks mid frame and saw my exposure was 1/25th at f12. Crap. But now just a quick flip of the aperture wheel to f9 and two taps on the rear LCD and I had ISO 100 for 1/200th at f9. I had a good 8 seconds to spare to watch the viewfinder and grab this image.

No, the composition is not stellar, but it could have been better if it had been a grungy old freight train instead of an ugly commuter. But I think the story will be familiar to many -- how many times have we missed a moment because of unfamiliarity with new gear? I know I have, but this time I was familiar with the camera and the new back was so intuitive to use it got out of my way and let me focus on the image.

And yes, I took some processing liberties to dress it up. I also will admit I had the 55 LS on and it was a tad short for this composition, so I cropped to about what the P40+ frame would be --- and I still have about a 54MP file!!!



Okay, Friday martini time -- enjoy your weekend!

cly
14th May 2011, 04:18
Warning! Do NOT look at these docs: http://www.phaseone.com/en/SupportMain/Manuals/Manuals_DB.aspx
:angel::watch:

Now that is interesting: If you go to page 49 of the 645DF/IQ180 user guide, it says:

"ISO Settings All IQ Series backs have a default ISO spectrum from ISO 35-800. Sensor+ technology, built into the Phase One IQ Series models, expands the ISO range to up 3200 at 20 megapixels resolution."

It contradicts the spec sheets on the P1 web page (http://www.phaseone.com/en/Digital-Backs/IQ140/IQ140-Tech-Specs.aspx) and 20MP resolution applies to one model only but who knows ... So, perhaps, 2 minutes exposure time will become reality in the IQ140 too.

Chris

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 04:21
Thanks Chris and BTW i really enjoyed the C1 Training classes here in Phoenix and encourage folks to attend CI/Chris's event in Orlando. I actually learned a lot and wish i paid attention more as i missed a few things. I'm actually going to attend more of them so I can get out and meet with folks . Okay have to say I did fall in love with 2 products outside the IQ the Arca RM2D and the Profoto D1's which i am sitting here trying to figure out which Elinchroms to sell and get one or 2 of the D1's.

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 04:24
Now that is interesting: If you go to page 49 of the 645DF/IQ180 user guide, it says:

"ISO Settings All IQ Series backs have a default ISO spectrum from ISO 35-800. Sensor+ technology, built into the Phase One IQ Series models, expands the ISO range to up 3200 at 20 megapixels resolution."

It contradicts the spec sheets on the P1 web page (http://www.phaseone.com/en/Digital-Backs/IQ140/IQ140-Tech-Specs.aspx) and 20MP resolution applies to one model only but who knows ... So, perhaps, 2 minutes exposure time will become reality in the IQ140 too.

Chris

Certainly does and to our advantage no less. Hope that will be the case with the 160 and 140 to get ISO 35 and 2 minute times. Everyone I talked to does not have a final word on this for the 140 and 160 so this will be interesting to see what happens. Fingers crossed

vieri
14th May 2011, 04:32
Certainly does and to our advantage no less. Hope that will be the case with the 160 and 140 to get ISO 35 and 2 minute times. Everyone I talked to does not have a final word on this for the 140 and 160 so this will be interesting to see what happens. Fingers crossed

I am sorry to be the one that spoils the party, but in the same manual, at page 59, explicitly says:

"The default ISO setting is 50 for all IQ Series models. The IQ180 has a standard
ISO range from 35 to 800. The IQ140 and IQ160 has a ISO range from 50-
800. To extend the ISO range select the Sensor + option to capture images
with 20 megapixels resolution at 4 times higher sensitivity, up to ISO 3200.
(The IQ180 shoots at 20 megapixel resolution, the IQ160 at 15 megapixel
resolution and the IQ140 at 10 megapixel resolution in Sensor + mode).
Find out how to access and set the Sensor + function on page 77."

So I guess this puts the issue to rest... which makes sense in a way, being the IQ 160 & 140 old sensors :(

Terry
14th May 2011, 04:35
Thanks Graham - I downloaded the manual and it is now in my dropbox for easy access. However after just reading the whole thing I don't really think I will ever need it again. It seems that simple....Kind of reminds me of the M8 manual where it is so easy you look at it once and you are done.

Jack has his screen set up in the perfect configuration for what is intuitive and important to me so it looks like I will just follow his lead.....eventually, when the mere mortals get their backs.

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 04:58
I put on the side menus in this order which seemed pretty good from top to bottom

Histo
Focus mask
Blown HighLight
Pitch and Roll
Exif

I like the red on the highlight to come not flashing and Jacks comment on the Focus mask coming up ONLY on the side menus I like that idea as well. Like to keep my preview screen clear unless i push the button so hopefully they will make that small firmware change. Basically give us the same options on focus mask as the highlight so we can decide for ourselves.

Also on focus mask shooting the model Doug and I set it to around 31 which seemed to work pretty well with the 110 and 210 but I would like more time with that to play some more.

Blown hightlights I set it at 250. Obviously you can adjust these things to your taste. But once you folks get your back i would play around with the focus mask and see what works best for you and your setup.

Terry
14th May 2011, 05:01
I put on the side menus in this order which seemed pretty good from top to bottom

Histo
Focus mask
Blown HighLight
Pitch and Roll
Exif

I like the red on the highlight to come not flashing and Jacks comment on the Focus mask coming up ONLY on the side menus I like that idea as well. Like to keep my preview screen clear unless i push the button so hopefully they will make that small firmware change. Basically give us the same options on focus mask as the highlight so we can decide for ourselves.

Move the histo to third on your list and you can see it if you are scrolled to the top or scrolled to the bottom meaning the histo will always be visible....
thanks Jack:D

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 05:41
For some reason I like it at the top as I really did not scroll down to the last two much at all. Cool thing is you can set to your preference which is what I love about it. Someone was actually thinking here.

woodyspedden
14th May 2011, 05:41
Okay a 80 mpx shot . Not sure i totally nailed focus but it is damn close. Shot with the 110mm LS at F5.6 which is fairly wide open ISO 100 at 1/160.

Only White Balance here . Let it go on DR and look how well it handled the bright sun in background with just some reflector light and the shadows are wide open. This thing has some serious DR going on.

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000638_355817.jpg

100 percent crop.

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/untitled-1_136265.jpg

Guy

The resolution is just amazing! I immediately saw the tiny tiny hair going into her left nostril and realized there is really a difference with an 80 Mpx back.

Wish I could afford this to use with a tech camera but as an amateur no can justify. So i'll just look at your and jack's images and enjoy.

You must own this back. No intermediate choices! JMHO LOL

Woody

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 06:00
Love ya Woody. Yea i have not talked to much in this review about the IQ but the real fact is you never see any of the detail with your naked eye and when you bring these images in it is just flat out scary what is in your file. Honestly I have not seen anything like it and either has Jack. When we did our review together on the prototype we where just floored what was coming up on screen and than in print. My Epson 7900 is just not big enough for this back. I started this digital journey 21 years ago back in 1990 and this stuff was far beyond our dreams back than. We have made leaps and bounds improvements in digital since than. Nice thing for me is I lived to see that change which is kind of cool.

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 06:09
Here is another one we shot with the 110mm at ISO 100 at 3.2 which is tough to shoot at and nail it. But this is pretty good, rather we shot more at around 5.6 but we where losing light way to fast as we got a really late start. Just look at the bokeh of this lens too very very nice. Man do I love MF stuff.

FYI folks i have done nothing to these files in C1 except WB and I could do a whole lot if i wanted to with sharpness and clarity

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000605.jpg

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/crop_98268.jpg

gazwas
14th May 2011, 12:07
FYI folks i have done nothing to these files in C1 except WB and I could do a whole lot if i wanted to with sharpness and clarity

Guy, these shots look amazing and the new interface looks a dream!

Its a shame we have no shots done with your P40+ as a comparison as to what all this extra resolution and new chip design offers, shot under the same conditions.

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 12:10
I know i wish i had more time with the IQ 180 so i can really test this things out between the backs and thanks for the compliment. Not sure I even completely nailed them all but we came really close. I wish we where stopped down 1 more stop on the girl.

gazwas
14th May 2011, 12:16
easy to forget how great the P40+ is in the first place when the nice new and shinny effect takes hold.

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 12:22
Exactly I can never sneeze at the P40+. Totally a awesome back no question about it. Thing has served me so well for sure. The new IQ 140 at almost the same price as the new P40+ was when it came out so a very nice deal to get in MF land. The new IQ series is going to be a huge success. I know i get excited about these things but I am impressed so pardon some of my enthusiasm. Not sure how much patience I have waiting for mine. I WANT IT TODAY. ROTFLMAO

gazwas
14th May 2011, 12:28
So, 100% IQ140?

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 12:34
I'm pushing for the IQ 160 now but not sure i can get there but no question at least the IQ 140 it's already a done deal. I'm driving Dave at CI nuts i am sure, I'm sending him a eraser for all the changing. LOL

Jack
14th May 2011, 12:35
A bit I forgot to include in my original write up was mentioning native file size. I know it's in the specs -- they process out of C1 to 7760x10328 pixels and 480MB in 16-bit. I want to put in perspective how big a file that 80MP is. At native file size and 360PPI print resolution, a print will be roughly 21-1/2" x 28-1/2". At 300PPI it will be roughly 25-3/4" x 35-1/2". At 240PPI it will be roughly 32" x 43" (!)

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 12:39
Jack you need to upgrade your Epson 7900 to a 9900 now dude. LOL




You know what kills me i know him so well he is sitting there with this biggest freaking grin on his face. Just laughing at me that he will have that monster over me.

Jack
14th May 2011, 13:44
Hey, read your emails --- I'm the one pushing on you to go all the way :ROTFL:

And yes, I definitely wish I had the 9900 now -- my 7900 seems sort of puny.

And all of a sudden, my 3yr old Mac Pro seems a little sluggish too...

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 13:56
I know love ya bud. LOL

468 mg files. Try loading those up on a cloud

Bill Caulfeild-Browne
14th May 2011, 14:00
This forum continues to provide the photographer with informative, unbiased technical information that allows others to gain valuable experience through your research. Thank You for that guys.



Sincerely,

Chris Snipes
Sales Manager, Florida
Capture Integration
http://www.captureintegration.com

2010 Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Mamiya, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

404.522.7662 Atlanta
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Emphatically +1.
Bill

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 14:20
Thanks Bill and Chris

Jack and I take great pride in these comments. We know this is a big value to a lot of people and we try hard to get the data to our members. Now need to get Jack out there and get some more images to post for us all.

I need to get my bloody hands on one again so I can test some more.

Jack
14th May 2011, 14:31
Thanks Bill and Chris

Jack and I take great pride in these comments. We know this is a big value to a lot of people and we try hard to get the data to our members. Now need to get Jack out there and get some more images to post for us all.

I need to get my bloody hands on one again so I can test some more.

Indeed, thank you guys for the kind comments! We try really hard to get the facts out that potential users and real shooters need.

And FTR, Jack definitely wants to get out and take more images to post, was planning on doing just that today, but his entire state is covered in clouds! Keeping fingers crossed for better photo weather tomorrow. Hitting Yosemite next week too!

Vincent Goetz
14th May 2011, 15:52
Jack, I will be there also....

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 19:31
Similar shot to the last one about 2 frames away again at F3.2 with the 110mm. This one we nailed no question

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/crop_529451.jpg

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 19:44
You can actually see me in her eye.

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 19:51
Processing some of these out for our young model here. Came across a pretty decent one at Sensor Plus ISO 1600 with the 210mm at 4.5

1600 is pretty good and certainly given enough light very workable but have not shot it but my bet ISO 800 is the ticket. I'm picky though. Left side is blown some but not going to sweat it here. There was basically very little fill here for balance . Surprised it is this good to be honest

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000764.jpg

Guy Mancuso
14th May 2011, 20:40
Another Sensor Plus ISO 1600 with 110mm at 6.3 here. Here i put a bit of noise reduction on luminance 25 and color 50

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000706_1.jpg

Bob
14th May 2011, 20:53
Hey, read your emails --- I'm the one pushing on you to go all the way :ROTFL:

And yes, I definitely wish I had the 9900 now -- my 7900 seems sort of puny.

And all of a sudden, my 3yr old Mac Pro seems a little sluggish too...
Jack and Guy,
I am sitting here stuck in Bilbao with a pouty-face wishing I was able to get my hands on a back.
Hopefully I will get my 180 soon since I think I ordered it within two minutes of the announcement :cool:
-bob

dchew
15th May 2011, 02:04
Not funny Guy! I have a 7900, and it just fits perfectly in the loft where my studio is. A 9900 would require a house upgrade...!

Welcome to The Theory of Constraints.

Dave


Jack you need to upgrade your Epson 7900 to a 9900 now dude. LOL

cs750
15th May 2011, 04:34
I also want to express my thanks for Jack, Guy, the folks at Capture Integration and others who continue to share valuable information. Charles

Guy Mancuso
15th May 2011, 04:52
Not funny Guy! I have a 7900, and it just fits perfectly in the loft where my studio is. A 9900 would require a house upgrade...!

Welcome to The Theory of Constraints.

Dave

Morning David . My issue is if i went 9900 I would need a sledge hammer to come with it. My 7900 JUST fits in my office.

I need another HUGE gear sale in this place. This time i really need to rip this place apart. Getting all my pennies ready, this one could hurt. No longer a 4 digit upgrade.

Guy Mancuso
15th May 2011, 04:54
I also want to express my thanks for Jack, Guy, the folks at Capture Integration and others who continue to share valuable information. Charles

Thanks Charles wish you guys would call, write Phase as i need a demo to do more testing for you all.

Guy Mancuso
15th May 2011, 04:54
Jack and Guy,
I am sitting here stuck in Bilbao with a pouty-face wishing I was able to get my hands on a back.
Hopefully I will get my 180 soon since I think I ordered it within two minutes of the announcement :cool:
-bob

Fingers crossed I have a feeling this week.

Guy Mancuso
15th May 2011, 04:58
BTW last two shots a little tough on color not the back just the location and light was weird. To lazy to fix it this morning. I should have pulled out my quadras for this shoot . So I want to do more with skin tone. The color on the back is very very good so don't be mislead by these.

vieri
15th May 2011, 05:28
Ok, you guys did it, putting the final nail in (my) coffin! :ROTFL: I just went and emailed my local enabler with my confirmation for an IQ180... not that I needed much pushing, but your reviews, comments and seeing those real world samples did surely help! Business-wise is of course not a completely sound decision, I didn't actually need it, but once in a while we can indulge ourselves, can't we? :D

Just taking a minute a little more seriously talking on the business side of things: upgrading will not bring more customers in, will not generate & bring in work that I couldn't get with the P65+, will not increase image sales just by itself; however, it will make the workflow easier and more pleasurable (which IMHO is a big plus, given the quirkiness of MF or tech cameras vs regular 35mm cameras' workflow), will make the whole working experience faster, will take some of the hassle off the process. Plus, the wow factor and the cool factor will in fact help with at least a part of the customer base, thus possibly indirectly generate business... and in the end, will make me happier with what I see as the end result, IQ-wise. That was enough for me to decide; cash-wise, of course some thinking had to be done in order to make this work, but once I could figure that out the rest was easy :D Shooting for me is not only a business, is also a pleasure and this is the part where upgrading made a lot of sense to me...

Guy Mancuso
15th May 2011, 05:34
I agree Vieri the 40 + actually did bring me more clients and made current ones very very happy. Going to a 60 mpx won't do a damn thing at this point on the client side of the house BUT I am at the point this is all about me anymore. My needs are meet today it is the wants i am after and i want the best in my hands or damn close to it. And truthfully the IQ interface will make my life a lot easier to work.

Okay need to get to my chores so i can get my 5 dollar allowance for the week. ROTFLMAO

jlm
15th May 2011, 05:36
"...in the end, will make me happier..."
QED

Tim Ernst
15th May 2011, 05:47
Is it possible to select a group of images (like the last 20 that you just shot for instance) and then give them all the same star rating with a single click? If so this would be a great way to identify what lens they were shot with when using a tech camera (35mm would be 1 star, 47mm would be 2 stars, etc.). Or can you only do this one frame at a time?

yatlee
15th May 2011, 05:54
Jack and Guy, Thanks for the intial review. It's very informative. I was thinking the P45+ would be with me for a long time, but seeing the added tech on the IQ back makes me wondering if I should make the jump to IQ160 or even the IQ180.

One or two quick questions, I've using the back with Linhof techno and my Hasselblad V camera. I can see how the new back is going to help my work with the Techno. With the Hasselblad, it's manual focus, I already found it quite hard to do anything handheld. I guess the sensor+ technology can help, but ultimately auto focus is going to help me to nail more shots. There is always the question how my collection of glasses are going to hold up for the higher pixel. So, the question is to upgrade with the V mount or get and 645DF to go with the new back?

Guy Mancuso
15th May 2011, 06:09
Jack and Guy, Thanks for the intial review. It's very informative. I was thinking the P45+ would be with me for a long time, but seeing the added tech on the IQ back makes me wondering if I should make the jump to IQ160 or even the IQ180.

One or two quick questions, I've using the back with Linhof techno and my Hasselblad V camera. I can see how the new back is going to help my work with the Techno. With the Hasselblad, it's manual focus, I already found it quite hard to do anything handheld. I guess the sensor+ technology can help, but ultimately auto focus is going to help me to nail more shots. There is always the question how my collection of glasses are going to hold up for the higher pixel. So, the question is to upgrade with the V mount or get and 645DF to go with the new back?

I love the V stuff so please don't get me wrong but they are just not going to cut it in general. Some lenses will do well but after many years of shooting them myself some will just not hold up on these 6 micron and 5.2 micron chips plus slow to focus for sure. I would go directly to the DF and the Phase /Schneider lenses . In the end they will be extremely fast to focus have all the lens corrections for C1 and the quality of the glass IMHO is much better. Also maybe better said i would not buy one of these backs in a mount like a V. I know that maybe brutal on my part. My worry is why risk it when you can get these Schneiders that render so nice and built for the system.

I look at the money outlay here and for me, I'm not taking any risks on it. I want to go in proven that everything will work and look great. Others may have opposing thoughts but seriously we need to break away from the past.

Not to say some of the lenses can't cut it but overall as a system of V glass. I have my worries. In all of the Phase top tier and second tier lenses they all work well.
Seriously there is NO shame in using Mamiya glass. Most negative comments come from old glass. Not the case anymore or I would not be shooting it. If anything I am a whore on glass quality more than anything else.

And BTW you can take your V lenses with adapter and mount on the DF you know. So not is totally lost on your current glass and can keep some of the cherry ones.

Guy Mancuso
15th May 2011, 06:20
I posted this in another thread and I think this is spot on myself.

Here it is just follow my lead here you can't miss as these are the top tier.

28d,55ls,80ls,120macro,110ls,150d

Second tier 35d,45d, find good copies
80d,75-150,300 all very good here

The rest you can find good copies and will work good at F 8

But the best are above and the top tier is what I would go after first.

Jack
15th May 2011, 06:25
Jack and Guy,
I am sitting here stuck in Bilbao with a pouty-face wishing I was able to get my hands on a back.
Hopefully I will get my 180 soon since I think I ordered it within two minutes of the announcement :cool:
-bob

Bob,

Let me just say it is worth the wait! Any remaining doubt will have totally evaporated after about a dozen captures.

Jack
15th May 2011, 06:31
Is it possible to select a group of images (like the last 20 that you just shot for instance) and then give them all the same star rating with a single click? If so this would be a great way to identify what lens they were shot with when using a tech camera (35mm would be 1 star, 47mm would be 2 stars, etc.). Or can you only do this one frame at a time?

In C1 itself you can sort by a number of data fields, focal length and ISO being just two. Then you can select a group and apply a rating or color code or both to the selected group.

I have never bothered rating from the camera, but I am pretty sure you do it one image at a time as you review each.

Tim Ernst
15th May 2011, 06:36
When using a tech camera it is obviously important to know what lens was used - Leaf backs are easy to do this with and I was really disappointed to learn it can't be done the same way with the new IQs so I was hoping the star rating method would work. In order to be easy you would need to be able to select groups of images on the back and do the rating with a single click, otherwise it would be a pain in the butt to do them one at a time. I don't care about rating later in C1, but would then use the ratings that were done on the back to add the lens data to the description field in the metadata - again with a single click per group. I'm hoping this is possible with the new backs. I'm #2 on the list at my dealer so also hoping it won't be long now...

Jack
15th May 2011, 06:41
So, the question is to upgrade with the V mount or get and 645DF to go with the new back?

Here's my .02, and worth exactly what you're paying for it: The Hassy V cams are excellent and have excellent glass. But they are old technology and then by definition constrained toward any future advancements. I am willing to bet the tech in the IQ backs is just the tip of the iceberg. I have no actual data, but I also do not doubt that Phase is working on and will release an entirely new camera based on the existing Phase/Mamiya platform. IOW they are continually bringing out new lenses in Mamiya mount, and it stands to reason that any new camera they develop will integrate with those lenses and then existing back interface and mount will allow advanced integration with the camera and probably directly to the lenses through the body. All that is a long way to my saying I think it's time to make the move to a Phase DF camera if for nothing else than future advancements. Finally, your legacy V glass can be used on the DF body via a V to M adapter -- I have one and it works great, so you don't even have to make the transition all at once.

That said, folks can bash the look of the Phase/Mamiya body all they want -- it does look kind of like a "plastic toy" -- but the existing AF is EXCELLENT, the latest D line of lenses are EXCELLENT and however they do it, the QC on the body to back fit and alignment is essentially perfect; sensors are perfectly parallel to lenses and at the proper focal distance; you snap a back and a lens on a body and go shoot.

Terry
15th May 2011, 06:42
When using a tech camera it is obviously important to know what lens was used - Leaf backs are easy to do this with and I was really disappointed to learn it can't be done the same way with the new IQs so I was hoping the star rating method would work. In order to be easy you would need to be able to select groups of images on the back and do the rating with a single click, otherwise it would be a pain in the butt to do them one at a time. I don't care about rating later in C1, but would then use the ratings that were done on the back to add the lens data to the description field in the metadata - again with a single click per group. I'm hoping this is possible with the new backs. I'm #2 on the list at my dealer so also hoping it won't be long now...

When I saw your post I, as a tech camera shooter, I went into the manual and looked at process. As, Jack points out I think you do need to do them one at a time. However, two things seem to strike me as being easy in the process.

1. Just tag the first image in a series with the star when ever you change lenses. You can fill in the blanks really fast when you get to C1

2. Scrolling through images and just using the touch screen to add the star on each seems like it would go very quickly on the new back.

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/3/7/screen_shot_2011-05-15_at_8.26.46_am_original.png

Guy Mancuso
15th May 2011, 06:45
Tim you can star rate on the back we just did it the other day but it is one by one as you preview in playback. Not unless when you go into the thumbnails you can do it on the back. I did not try it or look for it.

One thing I WISH they would just take away from ALL these digital cameras is that damn DELETE button and they made it worse by select multiples and than delete. Folks this is the most dangerous mode of operation in the world. DON'T DO IT buy bigger cards. This is so risky in my mind and that one awesome capture you may have working like this could always fall into the gutter on you. Do not use this function on the back. Do it in C1 after you downloaded and backed up. Just some thing in tech that are dangerous to do, I'm old school and I will do this after my images are safe and sound not in the field under the gun trying to save my CF card. Buy more there cheap, if you can't afford it I will buy it for ya. Rant off

Tim Ernst
15th May 2011, 06:48
Sounds like that will work Terry. I thought I saw somewhere that you could select multiple images to delete at the same time, so it should also be easy to select a group and add a star as well, just like in Bridge or whatever. But tapping the first and last with the same star would work almost as well. I think that will solve my biggest issue with this back on a tech camera vs. a Leaf - unless Leaf makes good on yaya's hint about not having to do an LCC - that would be huge....

Guy Mancuso
15th May 2011, 06:50
When I saw your post I, as a tech camera shooter, I went into the manual and looked at process. As, Jack points out I think you do need to do them one at a time. However, two things seem to strike me as being easy in the process.

1. Just tag the first image in a series with the star when ever you change lenses. You can fill in the blanks really fast when you get to C1

2. Scrolling through images and just using the touch screen to add the star on each seems like it would go very quickly on the new back.

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/3/7/screen_shot_2011-05-15_at_8.26.46_am_original.png

Actually a good idea star one with a lens and than when switching lenses use a different star rating and just fill in later. That is pretty easy to do in your workflow but yes you can start rate on the back. Be cool if you could do it in thumbnail mode on playback, but not sure it could be done but it really is a firmware function. We should put that on a list somewhere to ask Phase to implement

Terry
15th May 2011, 06:51
Tim you can star rate on the back we just did it the other day but it is one by one as you preview in playback. Not unless when you go into the thumbnails you can do it on the back. I did not try it or look for it.

One thing I WISH they would just take away from ALL these digital cameras is that damn DELETE button and they made it worse by select multiples and than delete. Folks this is the most dangerous mode of operation in the world. DON'T DO IT buy bigger cards. This is so risky in my mind and that one awesome capture you may have working like this could always fall into the gutter on you. Do not use this function on the back. Do it in C1 after you downloaded and backed up. Just some thing in tech that are dangerous to do, I'm old school and I will do this after my images are safe and sound not in the field under the gun trying to save my CF card. Buy more there cheap, if you can't afford it I will buy it for ya. Rant off

From everything I've read, it seems all the delete functions make you press a second "button" to confirm that you want to delete. I still don't delete on the back but it does seem like Phase tries to save you from yourself.

Guy Mancuso
15th May 2011, 06:53
I know Terry but my rant lives on DO NOT USE THIS FUNCTION. Dont care how often you need to confirm. Its a risk not worth doing just to save space on a CF card. Scares the bejesus out of me. LOL

I have seen so many oops in my life you just don't take risks with your data in the field.

jlm
15th May 2011, 07:05
I'm thinking the composition mode will ease the load. As it is now (tech camera), i may take several versions for focus and exposure, framing, etc, then maybe one or two final shots, adding the hand shot to separate good from bad. mostly just more junk to look at in processing and more download time from card to mac. with the 180, these un-needed files are biggies

Jack
15th May 2011, 07:20
So just another example of the Phase DF's AF capability and hand-holding/high ISO S+ with the IQ180. I was invited to a casual dinner party last night so I took the Phase and left the 55LS mounted. Here is a hand-held ISO 1600 S+ shot, 1/80th at f4. It is dusk outside with normal indoor lighting and as you can see, this image is strongly backlit. All processing was done in C1, cranked highlights up to 55 to recover the sky to 253, added 3 points of black to get global blacks looking good, and then B&W tool at one of my basic settings, and finally a little elliptical vignette to add some character. I focused on the wine glass since that was the only thing not moving ( :) ), recomposed and snapped when it looked right:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/iso1600bw.jpg

Crop:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/1600scrop.jpg

I am loving this system more and more every hour I use it...

Here's a shot of the host taken in a dimly lit side room with one overhead light on. It is also heavily cropped to maybe 1/6th the total S+ frame as I did not want to get too close in to his face with the 55 so as to avoid perspective distortion. The downside of that crop is the relative noise signature is magnified by about 6x of that off what a normal S+ frame would be, and this was S+ ISO 3200 processed with no added NR, so you can definitely see it! IMHO while heavy, it sort of works for this kind of low light "reportage" style image -- 1/45th at f4, ISO 3200. For you film shooters, it is reminiscent of 35mm Tri-X pushed to 800, isn't it?:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/hostat3200.jpg

vieri
15th May 2011, 07:36
...

I am loving this system more and more every hour I use it...

Thank you for the samples Jack - I am happier & happier I went and ordered one! :D now I just gotta be patient, wait for it to come and put those Ski Masks to a good use! :ROTFL:

Terry
15th May 2011, 07:48
Jack - When you get a chance would you try and print a higher ISO sensor plus shot/or crop at full resolution to see how well they print up?

Now that I traded in my DF body to pay for the dang upgrade you will have me buying something back. Although it may be the next iteration of Phase body.

GrahamWelland
15th May 2011, 07:53
I'm thinking the composition mode will ease the load. As it is now (tech camera), i may take several versions for focus and exposure, framing, etc, then maybe one or two final shots, adding the hand shot to separate good from bad. mostly just more junk to look at in processing and more download time from card to mac. with the 180, these un-needed files are biggies

I agree for technical camera use this will be helpful. I end up with a bunch of images that I have to weed through in C1 that were simply exposure setting/composition adjustments. I'd love to be able to mark the beginning / end of an image sequence with something other than the hand shot too.

I foresee a 'features we wish we could add in firmware' thread coming on ...

Jack
15th May 2011, 08:15
Jack - When you get a chance would you try and print a higher ISO sensor plus shot/or crop at full resolution to see how well they print up?

Now that I traded in my DF body to pay for the dang upgrade you will have me buying something back. Although it may be the next iteration of Phase body.


LOLOL! I am pretty sure that was me yelling at you, "Don't sell off your DF body and lenses just yet!" :ROTFL:. Moreover, you had a pretty outstanding low-mileage set :(

I will print some full frame ISO 3200 and 1600 S+ tomorrow and report in.

Dang, looking at the indoor images from last night, I may just sell off my entire GH2 kit!

Guy Mancuso
15th May 2011, 08:25
Jack - When you get a chance would you try and print a higher ISO sensor plus shot/or crop at full resolution to see how well they print up?

Now that I traded in my DF body to pay for the dang upgrade you will have me buying something back. Although it may be the next iteration of Phase body.

I'm just going to pretend I did not see this. :D

focus on art
15th May 2011, 09:28
And yes, I definitely wish I had the 9900 now -- my 7900 seems sort of puny.

Well, I've got the 9900, but no chance to get the IQ180...:cry::ROTFL:

Jack
15th May 2011, 11:43
I'm not a nativ English speaker...and still learning=)

the financial pain of photography is understood in any language!

Bill Caulfeild-Browne
15th May 2011, 12:13
That said, folks can bash the look of the Phase/Mamiya body all they want -- it does look kind of like a "plastic toy" -- but the existing AF is EXCELLENT, the latest D line of lenses are EXCELLENT and however they do it, the QC on the body to back fit and alignment is essentially perfect; sensors are perfectly parallel to lenses and at the proper focal distance; you snap a back and a lens on a body and go shoot.


I agree, Jack. I was an early adopter of the DF and although it had some annoying early quirks, especially in MU mode, the last firmware upgrade corrected them and I've had nothing but 100% reliable performance ever since. Yeah, it doesn't have the classy look and finish of the 'Blad, but it does get the job done. And the Schneider/Mamiya D lenses are as good as they get.

I'm waiting for that 240 mm LF lens and a possible camera firmware upgrade to add to the delay between the FP shutter closing and the leaf shutter operating in mirror-up mode. Presently Phase have built in a half-second delay to allow FP shutter vibrations to subside before exposure but I don't think it's enough. I suggested to the chief engineer that they might lengthen this delay or even make it variable by the user. I got no commitment but Phase has a fine history of listening to their customers and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this happen.

IMHO there will be a new Phase camera...but it'll be while yet. I doubt it will be a DF Mark 2 but rather a new-from-the-ground-up model. Please note this is my opinion and not a quote from Phase...

Bill

yatlee
15th May 2011, 12:49
Thanks Guy and Jack! I will work slowely toward that list of your top tier recommendation. I guess I can also find out how my Hassy lens will do with a 654DF adaptor. Many thanks again!

tashley
15th May 2011, 12:58
Ok, I am re-assimilated. This is torture and there's only one way out. I'm in.

vieri
15th May 2011, 13:02
Ok, I am re-assimilated. This is torture and there's only one way out. I'm in.

Welcome back to the party, Tim! :D Jump in, the water - although not exactly inexpensive - is warm! :ROTFL:

tashley
15th May 2011, 13:06
Welcome back to the party, Tim! :D Jump in, the water - although not exactly inexpensive - is warm! :ROTFL:

I just hope the emporer is wearing his bathing suit ;-)

Terry
15th May 2011, 13:26
I just hope the emporer is wearing his bathing suit ;-)

If not you are always welcome at SF's Bay to Breakers Race - run earlier this AM

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704810504576307273357779498.html



.

tashley
15th May 2011, 13:48
Lovesya Terry but if you think I'm running 7.5 miles naked and drunk with a full phase one kit, you only half know me :-)

dchew
15th May 2011, 13:53
Ah, not this year! I heard you could still go full monte but no drinking allowed!

Dave


Lovesya Terry but if you think I'm running 7.5 miles naked and drunk with a full phase one kit, you only half know me :-)

tashley
15th May 2011, 14:11
Trust me, you'd have to be drunk to deal with seeing me a la Monty...

Jack
15th May 2011, 15:46
Tim,

You could just don a hastily made Bentley costume and fit right in :ROTFL:

stewpid
15th May 2011, 22:52
Guys, (note the 's') I'm taking my life in my hands here but honestly, I'm not trying to rain on the bonfire so please see this as a genuine question. In the 35 iso shots I see much more noise than I would have expected. In fact, in all the shots this applies. I am comparing this to my own shots taken on various Phase backs plus Hass 39/2. On all the backs (so this is NOT an anti Phase thing) I see less noise at around 100 iso than the 180 samples at 35.
I know these are web samples but I am used to allowing for that. And let me repeat/emphasise, I'm not interested in getting involved in a flame war, or pointless defences of latest toys, I'm upgrading my own gear constantly and all I'm interested in is accurate info. Does anyone else notice more noise, or is it me?

Guy Mancuso
16th May 2011, 02:50
Why you so nervous , we do not have flame wars here. EVER. LOL


Actually good observation and let me explain what you are seeing and Jack did touch on this as well in one of his posts. Its actually quite simple

The ISO 35 setting on the 180 just like the ISO 50 setting on the P40 and P65 is the extended DR range of these backs . So in other words the lowest or base ISO has more DR than the higher ISO settings like ISO 100. Jack and I always shoot at the lowest setting when in the field to gain the highest DR range. This is actually normal on the Phase backs.

Now with that normally on the P40 and P60 that extended range is NOT like the extended DR on the Iq 180 sensor in reality we are seeing at least a 1/2 to full stop more DR on this new sensor. Jack and I are playing it safe without that type of testing to say a 1/2 more DR than our current P40 and P65.

Now this is huge and folks need to understand what actually happens here. WE are seeing in area's of the shadows that we have not seen before so its not so much noise although there most likely will be because we are seeing in area's that normally would clip and even on our backs these area's would clip. Jack and I both have said it to look normal on the IQ 180 we might be adding some black since the DR is so big it almost looks flat looking and far reaching in the shadow details than any other current back on the market. I would throw Hassy in here as well as others. Now on the Leaf back it might just be mirroring this as well since it has this new sensor. I'm taking a educated guess on the leaf since i have not tested it.


So in short the range is so great on DR we are simply seeing in area's that we dared not to go on anything else so the detail is so deep in the shadows it does not look normal but we are seeing so deep in hell here we are not used to seeing this.

Here is a good example i shot this at ISO 35 and i actually underexposed it but this shot is not clipping in the slightest and trust me on this on my P40 this would clip in the shadows no question. So in short I have NO true black which is so odd that we are not used to seeing this

Look into the depths of hell here and you can actually see the detail and actually i did comment on this when I posted it in this thread . I will repeat my comment after the image

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000470.jpg

Post 17

This is pretty interesting. I was actually testing the 210 F4 lens here and I was at F4 wide open and was shot handheld and proved to me this was a good lens but more important I shot this at ISO 35 and was a stop underexposed and there is no true black in this frame not a thing that is clipped on the low side. I can see all the detail in all the shadow areas and no highlights clipped either. That is some serious DR folks. This would have clipped with anything else out there.

Guy Mancuso
16th May 2011, 02:58
So the noise that you maybe seeing is actually more detail far beyond what we normally are used too, these areas now would be clipped with our current gear. So we have jumped into a new area of DR that we simply have not seen before.

Hope that helps explain it.

Now i will add here GetDPI is about data not brand wars and flame wars and trust me on this the forum is heavily moderated to prevent such silliness. Its simply not in the best interest to our members but good frank discussions are always welcome.:)

Guy Mancuso
16th May 2011, 03:07
Here you go i took this up to 100 percent and made a 1200 x1200 crop of the bottom right area for you to see. Now in all honesty my P40+ would have clipped here but with this new sensor it is seeing really deep in the shadows. Noise yes i see a touch and this maybe the effect of this expanded range but it is also a area that normally we might not see. So really good on one hand and maybe a touch misleading on what we are used to seeing. So i can see your question as a very valid one for sure. FYI P40+ and P65+ are identical sensors so the results would be the same but the 180 is new and has more DR

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/crop_7980.jpg

Guy Mancuso
16th May 2011, 03:11
This maybe the deepest area I can find in this image upper right doorway

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/untitled-1_684188.jpg

Jack
16th May 2011, 05:20
Also, re the "noise" visible in the shadows of these images --- my guess is you are viewing on a laptop. The way a laptop backlights can boost shadows and why I mentioned cranking monitor brightness up. Also, I suspect gamut is an issue, more than the laptop display can handle properly. If you view the same images on a display designed for editing that is properly calibrated then you will not see the same noise signatures you see from the laptop display. I sort of did address the noise "wart" in the very first post...

stewpid
16th May 2011, 07:24
Hi Guy (no "S" this time!), thanks for your incredibly detailed and thoughtful reply. And yes, Jack, you did mention noise in your first post and I seem to have missed that - sorry.

Your reply does sound credible, Guy, but I still have a concern; if we can see it on a monitor (profiled NEC PA271W by the way Jack) then I suspect it might show up in a large print. I think it would have to be very large, but then that's one of the reasons for getting such a big sensor. I guess I'll just have to do some tests and maybe that's what this is about for me - desperately trying NOT to get impressed. The new tech certainly has me interested.

(Not really nervous by the way, Guy; just trying to avoid being my often clumsy self and upsetting people needlessly.)

tashley
16th May 2011, 07:34
Tim,

You could just don a hastily made Bentley costume and fit right in :ROTFL:

Well buddy, that's the closest I'm likely to get to a Bentley after paying for my upgrade! Just spoke to my dealer. '...end of the month...' and the was me all excited!

dougpeterson
16th May 2011, 07:54
(Not really nervous by the way, Guy; just trying to avoid being my often clumsy self and upsetting people needlessly.)

You'd be hard pressed to do so on this forum. Only those who make it very clear they are just goading someone raise flags around here. Otherwise we're all in it to learn and discuss.

Guy Mancuso
16th May 2011, 07:58
Hi Guy (no "S" this time!), thanks for your incredibly detailed and thoughtful reply. And yes, Jack, you did mention noise in your first post and I seem to have missed that - sorry.

Your reply does sound credible, Guy, but I still have a concern; if we can see it on a monitor (profiled NEC PA271W by the way Jack) then I suspect it might show up in a large print. I think it would have to be very large, but then that's one of the reasons for getting such a big sensor. I guess I'll just have to do some tests and maybe that's what this is about for me - desperately trying NOT to get impressed. The new tech certainly has me interested.

(Not really nervous by the way, Guy; just trying to avoid being my often clumsy self and upsetting people needlessly.)

Well heck I have a 7900 right here let me make a print and take a look at it

Guy Mancuso
16th May 2011, 08:00
You'd be hard pressed to do so on this forum. Only those who make it very clear they are just goading someone raise flags around here. Otherwise we're all in it to learn and discuss.

Exactly I learn everyday here.

Jack
16th May 2011, 08:57
Jack - When you get a chance would you try and print a higher ISO sensor plus shot/or crop at full resolution to see how well they print up?


So I just finished processing and printing up the two high ISO S+ images Terry is referring to. I re-processed both files in C1 at base settings and in color with no added NR over my basic for ISO 50 files, which is extremely low and thus represents a "worst case" scenario for print noise in these examples. I printed the files at native size at 360 PPI, then uprezzed both to 4x enlargements (21x28 prints) and printed them out. It's difficult to render how a print looks visually on the web, so you'll just have to take my verbal descriptions -- and any of you are welcome to stop by my office and view the prints for yourselves to confirm my findings. Here they are, offered FWIW:

ISO 1600 S+ at native size: The noise is essentially not visible. It resembles what you'd see in a typical 35mm 4x6 print from ISO 100 print film. Seriously, that good.

ISO 1600 S+ at 4x enlargement: Here you do get a hint of noise in the smooth-toned areas. I would say it is reminiscent of the same 35mm ISO 100 print film enlarged to an 8x10 print -- again, impressively good.

ISO 3200 S+ at native size: Here you have visible, but subtle noise, some very small colored dotting visible in smooth-toned backgrounds. I would say this is reminiscent of 35mm ISO 400 print film at a 4x6 print size.

ISO 3200 S+ at 4x enlargement. Here we have more visible noise, larger colored dots slightly visible in some of the more textured areas. I would say this is probably stronger noise than the 35mm ISO 400 film at an 8x10 enlargement, but not nearly as much as say 35mm ISO 800 print film was at 4x6 if that makes sense.

So I reprocessed the ISO 3200 shot with NR boosted in C1 to 35/50. Here I printed another 4x enlargement and the result is back to about what 35mm ISO 100 (or maybe 200) print film showed at 8x10 enlargements --- IOW, VERY VERY clean...

Seriously folks, I am impressed. I will not hesitate to use 3200 S+ if I need it, and certainly will use 1600 S+ without hesitation even for relatively large prints.

gazwas
16th May 2011, 10:19
Oh dear, this is getting dangerous! :loco:

Convinced myself that the IQ backs were all hype but reading Jack and Guy's reviews has get me thinking.........

Since getting my P65+ I've been wanting to shoot my Canon kit less and less and the type of work I now shoot is 99% interiors and product work.

This got me thinking today on a shoot...... do I still really need the Canon gear? Now the IQ180 shoots at 20MP in sensor+ mode its basically like the Canon. I don't ever use AF and always shoot with a tripod. I use an Arca M2 for as much as I can but the Canon does come in handy for the quick, simple or dirty factory jobs.

So my question to Guy and Jack (any anyone else with a point of view) do you feel an IQ180 attached to a DF in sensor+ can replace the Canon which means freeing the money for the P65+ to IQ180 upgrade?

I personally can't think of one job I've shot in the last 12 months, from product cut-outs to set build studio shots that couldn't be shot with a DF over the Canon.

What is your feeling having used the IQ/DF combo. :banghead:

Guy Mancuso
16th May 2011, 11:24
I did it before with just the DF and I shoot everything from PR to whatever and I'm going solo again and sell the Sonys off. No question you can get it done but more care is needed.

AKElstudio
16th May 2011, 11:27
Here is my experience with Leaf Aptus-II 12, the same sensor as IQ180 (correct me if I am wrong), in studio test or highlight/shadow recovery:

http://akelstudio.s3.amazonaws.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/leaf-aptus-II-12-80mpx-studio-test-review-original.jpg

Full review :

http://www.akelstudio.com/blog/leaf-aptus-ii-12-80-megapixel-digital-back-review-it-is-not-only-pixels-that-count

gazwas
16th May 2011, 11:46
Here is my experience with Leaf Aptus-II 12, the same sensor as IQ180 (correct me if I am wrong), in studio test:

Hi Alex, thanks for your comment however I don't think the studio side of it comes into question as my P65+ smokes my Canon files and being tethered in the studio kind of voids the IQ features. What I'm more interested in is how a DF works with the IQ as a substitute for the Canons in sensor+?

Jack
16th May 2011, 12:06
So my question to Guy and Jack (any anyone else with a point of view) do you feel an IQ180 attached to a DF in sensor+ can replace the Canon which means freeing the money for the P65+ to IQ180 upgrade?


Did you read my post #2, the S+ review part in this thread? Simple answer is, "Yes." More complex answer is, "The AF works great too!" :D

gazwas
16th May 2011, 12:24
Did you read my post #2, the S+ review part in this thread? Simple answer is, "Yes." More complex answer is, "The AF works great too!" :D

Think I might have a talk to my dealer to find out the cost to upgrade tomorrow....... just out on interest. :rolleyes:

Terry
16th May 2011, 13:11
Jack,
Thanks for doing the prints. That is really good news. I'm really looking forward to getting mine. New lens should arrive soon and hard drives have plenty of space (I think - :D) too bad I only have a quad core :wtf:

Jack
16th May 2011, 13:20
too bad I only have a quad core :wtf:

:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Yeah, I could say it but won't! Seriously, for what I shoot -- and now that my wallet is lighter than empty -- I can afford to be a little patient with my 3+ year old Mac Pro LOLOL! I will however be upgrading to the next gen as mine is getting long in the tooth for a computer. But on the upside, even though it's slower than the new stuff at least it still runs smoothly and reliably!

HCHeyerdahl
16th May 2011, 20:02
I did it before with just the DF and I shoot everything from PR to whatever and I'm going solo again and sell the Sonys off. No question you can get it done but more care is needed.


Did you read my post #2, the S+ review part in this thread? Simple answer is, "Yes." More complex answer is, "The AF works great too!" :D

Sorry my ignorant question, but I just need to get this streight for myself:

Should I understand this such that an IQ/Phase combo using sensor+ can be used hand held "more or less" like a 24mp DSLR/ Leica S2? I mean both image quality and handling wise?

Chris

GrahamWelland
16th May 2011, 21:42
Sorry my ignorant question, but I just need to get this streight for myself:

Should I understand this such that an IQ/Phase combo using sensor+ can be used hand held "more or less" like a 24mp DSLR/ Leica S2? I mean both image quality and handling wise?

Chris

In theory, certainly. With an IQ180 you'd be dealing with the pixel binning that would essentially provide the rough equivalent of 10.4um and higher sensitivity (I know that the pixel binning algorithms don't quite equate exactly to the simple aggregation of 4 pixels but it would be close enough), both of which should make handheld shooting results somewhat better than you'd get from regular 24mp DSLRs. It'll be interesting to get some real world feedback - the theory at least sounds promising.

vieri
16th May 2011, 22:07
In theory, certainly. With an IQ180 you'd be dealing with the pixel binning that would essentially provide the rough equivalent of 10.4um and higher sensitivity (I know that the pixel binning algorithms don't quite equate exactly to the simple aggregation of 4 pixels but it would be close enough), both of which should make handheld shooting results somewhat better than you'd get from regular 24mp DSLRs. It'll be interesting to get some real world feedback - the theory at least sounds promising.

In fact, it should be in theory much more hand-heldable than a 24 MP DSLR, because the resulting binned pixels will be much larger - the larger the pixel, the easier to hand held. Of course, that's only theory and it doesn't take into account the size/weight of the DF plus lenses and, especially, the size/weight and energy of the mirror/shutter mechanism, which has much more inertial movement and slap than the smaller mirror/shutter found on a DSLR. These factors can affect handholding more than pixel size, so in the end I'd say we are about equal between a 24 MP DSLR and a 20 MP binned MF digital camera...

Anders_HK
17th May 2011, 00:32
In fact, it should be in theory much more hand-heldable than a 24 MP DSLR, because the resulting binned pixels will be much larger - the larger the pixel, the easier to hand held.

Is it not equally correct that if one downsize or crop an 80MP sized file to 24MP the camera will in theory be equally handholdable as a 24MP camera? Of course with a lens providing same field of view. Of if not, why would that not be correct?

Thanks!

Regards
Anders

vieri
17th May 2011, 02:18
Is it not equally correct that if one downsize or crop an 80MP sized file to 24MP the camera will in theory be equally handholdable as a 24MP camera? Of course with a lens providing same field of view. Of if not, why would that not be correct?

Thanks!

Regards
Anders

Hi Anders, it is partially correct - other than pixel number, pixel size and therefore pixel density plays an important role in the equation (the circle of confusion). Thus, a larger sensor with the same number of pixels is more hand-holdable than the same pixel on a smaller sensor...

Guy Mancuso
17th May 2011, 03:13
Best way here to describe this the main factors working with MF cams is this . They really are the same weight and bulk as most Pro 35mm with a 24-70 lens on it. So once you get the shape or design style of the cam comfortable within yourself this will be equal. The stuff you can't cheat are the physics. Large sensor equals more visible movement. Larger mirror creates more vibration, larger sensor equals less DOF and maintaining higher shutter speeds to combat the first two. So in effect you need to maintain a good shutter speed but also at the same time a good aperture to maintain good DOF.

All the rest of the chatter out there that you can't shoot MF handheld is a bunch of crock. I do it all the time on jobs all the time.

The trick is maintaining a good shutter speed to get over the vibration of the mirror and a large sensor that shows bigger movements. But maintaining a 1/60 of a second is normal for me and even squeeze off 1/30 given all the right factors. Look at this thread with Sensor Plus in action. I was shooting all handheld until I got to the runway but even than I am shooting in low light with a 300mm lens on a monopod.

Folks this comes down to cheating the physics and YOUR abilities. Nothing more.

Read this http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379


My advice here never listen to someone that says you can't do it here. You can do anything you want as long as you understand it and know how to work around it. Sure there are limits no question, you just need to get better as a shooter. That stuff takes time and anyone thinking they can pick up a MF and go to town is in for surprise right away. Its a different ballgame and you need to learn the ropes but it is so worth the effort and that is the key. Effort versus output. The more effort and work you put in the better the results. MF is work, this is not play time.

Kirmo
17th May 2011, 03:44
+1 handheld

Still learning in using my DF with P65+. I'm using it mostly handheld when shooting people in small villages in Hainan. Having it with my Canon 1Ds III
and they seem to about the same size and same weight. Ofcourse with Canon I can use my 1.2 class when very low light.

Trying to move more and more to just DF's use.

I'm pleased with what I get using DF also just handheld. Also I've made some bigger prints with 9900 and still happy.

Kirmo

Guy Mancuso
17th May 2011, 03:54
Some helping lenses here in Phase . The 150 2.8 is brilliant wide open, also the 80 LS at 2.8 or D. The 300 is also very good at 4.5

These lenses you can shoot very close to wide open if not wide open and maintain some speed when your light hits a critical low.

vieri
17th May 2011, 04:30
Some helping lenses here in Phase . The 150 2.8 is brilliant wide open, also the 80 LS at 2.8 or D. The 300 is also very good at 4.5

These lenses you can shoot very close to wide open if not wide open and maintain some speed when your light hits a critical low.

Indeed, Guy's mentioned glass is great, and I'd add the 55 LS to the glass that helps shooting wide open, too. I also use the DF hand held all the time in the studio and out, and with the caveats Guy mentioned a couple of posts above you can use it just fine. Of course, you'll never be able to shoot where you'd be able to go with a M9 at 1600 ISO and the Noctilux wide open, or where you'd use a D3 at 3200 ISO and a 50 f1.2 wide open, but save for extreme situation I find that you can hand hold successfully with MF anywhere in daylight, anywhere with flash, anywhere inside with enough illumination (Guy's runways are a great example of that); of course, MF has never intended to go where a Leica shooter with a Nocti could, and that holds true with digital as well - but saying that you can only use MF on a support is way off IMO.

Guy Mancuso
17th May 2011, 04:35
Well said Veri

Jack
17th May 2011, 06:26
Should I understand this such that an IQ/Phase combo using sensor+ can be used hand held "more or less" like a 24mp DSLR/ Leica S2? I mean both image quality and handling wise?

Chris

Basically yes, but the S2 is probably not a good comparison. In the the case of the S2 we have different ergonomics, more DSLR-like and less MF-like, so for some that may impact hand-holdability positively or negatively. Next we have 35 MP in the S2 which should give it an image edge over the IQ180's 20 binned pixels.


In theory, certainly. With an IQ180 you'd be dealing with the pixel binning that would essentially provide the rough equivalent of 10.4um and higher sensitivity (I know that the pixel binning algorithms don't quite equate exactly to the simple aggregation of 4 pixels but it would be close enough), both of which should make handheld shooting results somewhat better than you'd get from regular 24mp DSLRs. It'll be interesting to get some real world feedback - the theory at least sounds promising.

I think it is more than theory, at least for me. I sold off my Canon's when my P65+ arrived because the P65+ 15MP binned was very close to the image detail of the 1Ds3's AA'd CMOS @ 22MP. Then color from the Phase was clearly superior.


In fact, it should be in theory much more hand-heldable than a 24 MP DSLR, because the resulting binned pixels will be much larger - the larger the pixel, the easier to hand held. Of course, that's only theory and it doesn't take into account the size/weight of the DF plus lenses and, especially, the size/weight and energy of the mirror/shutter mechanism, which has much more inertial movement and slap than the smaller mirror/shutter found on a DSLR. These factors can affect handholding more than pixel size, so in the end I'd say we are about equal between a 24 MP DSLR and a 20 MP binned MF digital camera...

I think this is correct -- the larger net binned pixel helps holdability, but the physical size, shape and weight of MF makes it less efficient to do so.


Is it not equally correct that if one downsize or crop an 80MP sized file to 24MP the camera will in theory be equally handholdable as a 24MP camera? Of course with a lens providing same field of view. Of if not, why would that not be correct?


Not really -- at least in theory ;). While it's a good assumption, the problem is interpolation algorithms. A piece of black detail inside a white field that is smaller than a single pixel will render the single pixel black. Once it's larger than a single pixel, raw conversion algorithms will render neighboring pixels in shades of gray, essentially "fuzzing" the single black pixel. When we bin, we get 1 square pixel out of 4, so a larger pixel area, and a black that fits inside the new 4-square will render as black. However, when we downsample the same 4 into 1 new one, some of the original would have been gray, and the grays can be (at least partially) averaged into the new single downsampled pixel rendering it a shade of gray instead of black. This can work well for averaging out some noise, but at the same time it averages out detail so there's a detail/ISO tradeoff. Generalizing without any empirical support, I'd say we gain 2 stops of ISO with a 4x bin and retain a bit more native detail, where we maybe gain 1 stop ISO and loose a little of the retained detail with a 4x downsample.


Hi Anders, it is partially correct - other than pixel number, pixel size and therefore pixel density plays an important role in the equation (the circle of confusion). Thus, a larger sensor with the same number of pixels is more hand-holdable than the same pixel on a smaller sensor...

Exactly. Basically, when we view a digital image at 100% view, we are using pixel pitch as our new definition of CoC whether we wanted to or not. It only goes back to some realistic value when we print or downsample for web view; and the size we print or the amount we downsample for web directly affects the result.

So in a nutshell: I will offer a partial "YES." I think the IQ180's 20MP of binning can replace a high-end DSLR as respects overall image quality, and in most cases it will be superior due to superior color and usable DR. (Flamesuit on, but I do believe MF offers more "usable" DR than DSLR's, contrary to what the strict engineering definition of "DR" is.) However it can NOT replace the DSLR capture rate, AF speed or extremely high-ISO work -- IOW if you're a sports/action or ultra low-light photographer, the modern DSLR still reigns king IMHO.

gazwas
17th May 2011, 06:45
However, it can NOT replace the DSLR capture rate, AF speed or extremely high-ISO work -- IOW if you're a sports/action or ultra low-light photographer, the modern DSLR still reigns king IMHO.

Well that's me convinced.... I don't need any of that in your list.

Have emailed my dealer about upgrade cost and going to put all my Canon gear on ebay.

Guy Mancuso
17th May 2011, 06:55
Yes if your not pushing the high ISO, Frame rates or long glass needs than having a DSLR can be a moot point. My big reason for even having the Sony's is risk factors and security reasons. Plus just being lazy. LOL

Basically just don't want to take the Phase on a certain gig for theft and damage reasons, guess that is why you have insurance and loaded for bear on that one so really not a big issue . So basically the Sony is a throw away in a sense.

But if i move to a 160 it's gone. 15 mpx sensor plus is perfect for me.

One cool feature that never gets talked about is in the ISO selection you can go from a full res shot to a sensor plus shot in about 3 seconds . I have done this a couple times myself.

Jack
17th May 2011, 07:09
One cool feature that never gets talked about is in the ISO selection you can go from a full res shot to a sensor plus shot in about 3 seconds . I have done this a couple times myself.

Actually with the new IQ touch-tech, I can do that in about 1 second!

Guy Mancuso
17th May 2011, 07:10
I was being generous. LOL

Jack
17th May 2011, 07:36
No need to be, even with my fat fingers the new back is intuitive, fast and easy to use. Seriously, you tap the ISO button, finger scroll to your desired regular or S+ ISO and tap it, you done. It's as easy and fast as opening an app on your iPhone.

Edit: I really don't mean to sound like a fanboy, but this new UI tech is a big and very real improvement for field shooters...

Guy Mancuso
17th May 2011, 07:39
No need to be, even with my fat fingers the new back is intuitive, fast and easy to use. Seriously, you tap the ISO button, finger scroll to your desired regular or S+ ISO and tap it, you done. It's as easy and fast as opening an app on your iPhone.

Edit: I really don't mean to sound like a fanboy, but this new UI tech is for real the best thing we've ever had in photography...


Gear slut. Yea looks who talking :D

Jack
17th May 2011, 07:44
Gear slut? Moi??? Seriously, I am down to the Phase kit and a GH2 kit, and I may now sell off the GH2 kit!!!

Guy Mancuso
17th May 2011, 07:50
Know the feeling bud i can just start packing my Sony's now. I need to have a MAJOR gear sale here.

Jack
17th May 2011, 08:11
This is probably a good place to reiterate a few considerations:

1) The new UI tech is great for field shooters, but may not be necessary -- or worth the cost delta -- for shooters that shoot mostly tethered in the studio.

2) The 80MP sensor does have some newer tech in it compared to the last generation 40 and 60, this may or may not be necessary for your type of shooting. Not sure yet if the Leaf 80MP sensor and the Phase 80MP sensors are identical -- they appear for now to be the same base chip with some different onboard processing capabilities.

3) While 80MP of direct digital capture has definitely upped the game and set a new standard for digital imaging, the last current generations of 40 through 60 MP Leaf, Hassy and Phase backs are still all delivering outstanding image quality.

4) Phase has made the upgrade path a lot more tolerable -- and hence the decision more difficult -- with their rather generous trade-in program; without it, I'd probably still be shooting a P45+ :o

HCHeyerdahl
17th May 2011, 09:21
Thanks for all the feedback. This is really helpful, and I feel I am gaining more insight into my long term upgrade question. I have seen and handled the S2 and really liked it, but it seems I have to take a serious look at Phase.

Chris

Guy Mancuso
17th May 2011, 17:52
Some good news I heard from dealers they are receiving customer backs today. Yahoo

Anders_HK
17th May 2011, 18:28
Not really -- at least in theory ;). While it's a good assumption, the problem is interpolation algorithms. A piece of black detail inside a white field that is smaller than a single pixel will render the single pixel black. Once it's larger than a single pixel, raw conversion algorithms will render neighboring pixels in shades of gray, essentially "fuzzing" the single black pixel. When we bin, we get 1 square pixel out of 4, so a larger pixel area, and a black that fits inside the new 4-square will render as black. However, when we downsample the same 4 into 1 new one, some of the original would have been gray, and the grays can be (at least partially) averaged into the new single downsampled pixel rendering it a shade of gray instead of black. This can work well for averaging out some noise, but at the same time it averages out detail so there's a detail/ISO tradeoff. Generalizing without any empirical support, I'd say we gain 2 stops of ISO with a 4x bin and retain a bit more native detail, where we maybe gain 1 stop ISO and loose a little of the retained detail with a 4x downsample.


Thanks Jack and Vieri now makes perfect sense! :D

Jack, Apart from the UI which is merely a UI. Could you please further detail the advancemend in image quality matters of the IQ180? E.g. color palette, finer gradation of colors, DR with shadow and highlight performance/recovery?

Thanks!

Regards
Anders

yatlee
17th May 2011, 20:25
Hi Jack,

Since you had the P45+ before. How would you describe the quality of pictures has improved? I think at one point you mentioned the color accuracy has greatly improved. I often found that the color out of the P45+ required some adjustment especially when I use ND or polarizing filter.

I had a short time with the IQ180 and felt that the focus mask will help me tremendously with my Techno setup. I can probably buy the 645DF with it since the discount on the camera and 80mm lens is huge, but I may not use it much.

Thanks,

Yat

Guy Mancuso
18th May 2011, 04:33
My theory and i could be all wet here since I am not the scientist type. But i have been shooting Phase from the 9 micron sensors down to the new 5.2 and at every step of the way going down to the IQ 180 in micron size i have noticed more DR in each back and along with smoother tonal graduation going across the color spectrum and seems to me just smoother files as we keep going down in microns. Also credit to Phase engineers for building great algorithms along the way for each back. Case in point when I first tested the P40+ back when i was not impressed with the color palette at all. My skies where too cyan. The second time I tested it was better but my P30+ looked better at the time. Finally when Dave from CI brought me the P40+ to our Oregon workshop Phase finally nailed the color palette and than I wanted to buy it and did.
So looking at these files from the IQ 180 it seems to me a nicer graduation of color across the board and smoother looking files and more accurate color. Now the detail is just flat out scary as well. So looks like Phase did a real nice job here and bumped it up a level. Now I still love the P65 and P40 files no question and getting one again but this does look very good. I need more time with the 180 as well and shoot some more with it to confirm more of my feeling about it. I do think as these are getting delivered in the next coming days we will see a lot of happy campers. Get you hard drives ready

I'm sitting here figuring out how to get another IQ 180 in my hands to test more. Damn thing is addicting for sure once you start working with the new tech.

Jack
18th May 2011, 06:15
Hi Yat,

Good questions, but the answers are a bit long:



Since you had the P45+ before. How would you describe the quality of pictures has improved? I think at one point you mentioned the color accuracy has greatly improved. I often found that the color out of the P45+ required some adjustment especially when I use ND or polarizing filter.

There was a pretty significant bump in color accuracy moving from the P45+ to the P65+. My experience was the P45+ was very accurate in studio situations, but had more trouble with outdoor lightlng at varying altitudes such as a landscape photographer regularly encounters. I had to spend time tweaking to get vegetation greens looking good while keeping the skies blue and not shifting to cyan. When color editor was introduced in C1 it became my immediate best friend with the P45+ files...

Enter the P65+ and a lot of that went away, giving us closer to correct hues with standard conversion processing. I mainly used color editor for creative enhancements to color. With the P65+ we also gained in fine detail rendering, and then in what I'll call color and tonal "smoothness." It's hard to describe until you see it, but when you see it, you know it -- there were smoother transitions between colors and smoother tonal transitions within the same hue family. I mentioned in the main review that most of us just started saying the files were more "film-like" for lack of a better explanation. Also, virtually ever shooter agreed that the P65+ files *and* prints looked less "digital" than their predecessors.

With the IQ180 the color is another level improved, at least for outdoor shooting. It seems more accurate straight out of the gate, especially notable in subtle greens and blues. There is clearly more detail than the P65+ has -- which in itself is remarkable -- and we can question the need for it in all except the largest prints, but it does seem to move the tonal and hue smoothness up to the next level over what the (excellent) P65+ delivered. I have not printed a lot of my IQ180 files yet, so am reluctant to say too much more until I print more of the files. What I will say is my initial impression is another level up on smoother colors and tones in prints to the point of them appearing almost liquid. I can definitely see the difference in a P65+ print and an IQ180 print as respects color and tonal smoothness, but I have a difficult time quantifying it and want to do some more homework. It may be that the added resolution helps with this, I do not know -- but one thing for certain is you definitely gain significant crop capabilities with 80MP.

Finally, DR has stepped up incrementally with each back as well. I estimated 1/2 to 2/3rds stop usable gain between the P45+ and P65+, and now I'd give the IQ180 another 1/2 stop or so in the DR department. However, the IQ180 gets even more with the shadow recovery slider in C1 since the low tones hold together so well when pushed. I suspect this does have to do with the added resolution combined with improved technology in the new 80MP chip.



I had a short time with the IQ180 and felt that the focus mask will help me tremendously with my Techno setup. I can probably buy the 645DF with it since the discount on the camera and 80mm lens is huge, but I may not use it much.

Thanks,

Yat

I do believe focus mask on the IQ backs will become the tech cam shooters immediate new best friend! Seriously, it works extremely well.

Re the DF body. I would get one and at least a basic lens or two. The reason goes back to my review comments re hand-holdability, especially in Sensor Plus ISO modes. As a tech shooter, you will not be disappointed, and moreover likely appreciate, the performance from all of the LS lenses. I own the 55, 80 and 110 and they all render beautifully.

Hope that helps,

PS: I am heading into Yosemite today to shoot. I will for sure be printing up some larger prints and will come back with more commentary on color and tone accuracy and smoothness.

Terry
18th May 2011, 06:26
Jack,
How much is the color difference between the P45+ and the P65+ color do you think is simply the change from Kodak to Dalsa?

Jack
18th May 2011, 06:31
Jack,
How much is the color difference between the P45+ and the P65+ color do you think is simply the change from Kodak to Dalsa?

Probably a lot of it, but I do feel the smaller pixel pitch is equally involved in the smoothness...

Guy Mancuso
18th May 2011, 07:02
Well there is a noticeable difference between the Kodak and the Dalsa sensors. One word Dalsa is "smoother"

I agree with Jack as well the pixel pitch and DR increase has a lot to do with it.
Not to say the Kodak is bad but just different and i call it crunchier.

vieri
18th May 2011, 07:46
Probably a lot of it, but I do feel the smaller pixel pitch is equally involved in the smoothness...


Well there is a noticeable difference between the Kodak and the Dalsa sensors. One word Dalsa is "smoother"

I agree with Jack as well the pixel pitch and DR increase has a lot to do with it.
Not to say the Kodak is bad but just different and i call it crunchier.

Pixel pitch (and pixel count, of course) in a Bayer sensor definitely play a role in color accuracy and, more than that, color smoothness: for the same area of image, you have more pixel available to define colors and color transitions, and this improves smoothness of transitions and color accuracy as well. For example, imagine having to reproduce a color spectrum card or hue card (one with continuously changing colors, not those with squares or the like) with a 10x10 pixel sensor: due to interpolation (and of course to the low pixel count itself), you will end up with a very inaccurate result; imagine increasing the pixel number per same area to twice that, and you will get better accuracy; and so on up to today's 80 MP... this is why we all found the P65+ to give more accurate colors; I think that we like to define that as "film like" colors, because in (low ISO) color film there is practically no interpolation and no "gaps" between different colors, and this is what our eye is used to. Higher pixel count backs bring us closer and closer to the point where the "gap" between pixel becomes irrelevant in order to define the colors and the transitions between them with enough accuracy to reproduce the colors of the image subject seamlessly for all purposes, even on large or huge prints.

Sorry for the low accuracy and low "smoothness" of my explanation above - I hope this makes some sense anyway :)

jlm
18th May 2011, 15:46
has anyone done a several shot pano or stitch with one of these babies? I'd like to know how the pano software can handle the file size

Jack
18th May 2011, 15:50
So got in to Yosemite for a few hours today with the IQ180. Valley was magic -- light was constantly changing, light dusting of snow, mixed Sun, clouds, light rain and snow, green grass, the dogwoods are blooming and the falls are flowing. Anyway, here is a quickly processed (on my laptop) cliche shot from Tunnel View just to give you an idea what it was like. 55LS, 1/80 @ f12, ISO 35, processed in C1:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/tunnelviewcolor.jpg

And for some reason I just felt motivated to try it in B&W. Again, all on my laptop, and all done with C1's B&W tool:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/tunnelviewbw.jpg

I can't wait to do some light selective editing on this one and print it up ;)

Bill Caulfeild-Browne
18th May 2011, 17:35
That's a dynamite B&W, Jack.

But please stop flaunting that IQ180. I haven't got mine yet! (Color me green.)
Bill

Anders_HK
18th May 2011, 17:40
Pixel pitch (and pixel count, of course) in a Bayer sensor definitely play a role in color accuracy and, more than that, color smoothness: for the same area of image, you have more pixel available to define colors and color transitions, and this improves smoothness of transitions and color accuracy as well. For example, imagine having to reproduce a color spectrum card or hue card (one with continuously changing colors, not those with squares or the like) with a 10x10 pixel sensor: due to interpolation (and of course to the low pixel count itself), you will end up with a very inaccurate result; imagine increasing the pixel number per same area to twice that, and you will get better accuracy; and so on up to today's 80 MP... this is why we all found the P65+ to give more accurate colors; I think that we like to define that as "film like" colors, because in (low ISO) color film there is practically no interpolation and no "gaps" between different colors, and this is what our eye is used to. Higher pixel count backs bring us closer and closer to the point where the "gap" between pixel becomes irrelevant in order to define the colors and the transitions between them with enough accuracy to reproduce the colors of the image subject seamlessly for all purposes, even on large or huge prints.

Sorry for the low accuracy and low "smoothness" of my explanation above - I hope this makes some sense anyway :)

We can consider what Leaf has made to same generation sensors. What I was told by Leaf is that the 40 & 56MP sensors compared to their prior generation 28/33MP sensors present an overall improvement in terms of color saturation (better RGB filters). Thus improvements in bright colors where the higher saturation allows them to create ICC profiles that are smoother and with better, more subtle gradations. Also that the higher resolution contributes to finer gradations and a more "film like" look, which thus assumably for a given print size and viewing distance lets one experience a finer "grain/pixel size".

I would guess also P1 have similar improvements in their Dalsa sensors in 40 and 60MP backs. Comparing raw files from the 56 and 80MP Leaf's to my 28MP, colors appear incrementally improved in the 56MP but as if a bigger step is in the 56 to 80MP, albeit in part that might be due to the higher resolution etc per above. Thus I would gather that the 80MP backs are additional steps in improvements of both color and gradations. I much appreciate more info from you guys who use them.

Let us at same time bear in mind that Leaf backs already in earlier generations were considered more "film like" and color accurate than the P1 backs with Kodak sensors. Perhaps the use of Dalsa and acquiring of Leaf thus had something to do with this?

Regards
Anders

Don Libby
18th May 2011, 17:47
Have to say Jack I really like the B&W!

Guy Mancuso
18th May 2011, 18:14
That's a dynamite B&W, Jack.

But please stop flaunting that IQ180. I haven't got mine yet! (Color me green.)
Bill

Me too Bill. One good thing I got to shoot it for a whole day and that made me feel pretty good but I am going a little stir crazy for one in any flavor. The tech is just nice as can be. Frankly not sure where they go from here. We don't need more MPX

Jack
18th May 2011, 18:32
Bill and Don,

Thanks -- I liked the B&W too. I'm going to work on it more tomorrow when back at my main machine and print it up. I suspect it could maybe get a frame and a space on the wall ;)

Don Libby
18th May 2011, 18:36
Me too Bill. One good thing I got to shoot it for a whole day and that made me feel pretty good but I am going a little stir crazy for one in any flavor. The tech is just nice as can be. Frankly not sure where they go from here. We don't need more MPX

And we found out how weather resistant it is after all the drooling....
:ROTFL:

Terry
18th May 2011, 19:03
I'm not looking...I'm not looking...I'm not looking!

Guy Mancuso
18th May 2011, 19:17
I looked and I'm hooked and now we are all broke. LOL

cmb_
18th May 2011, 22:07
Very nice image Jack! Any further comments about shooting with it compared to the 65 in a "real life" situation?

gazwas
18th May 2011, 23:19
Well I think I sticking to my P65+. Just received an email from my dealer and to upgrade to the IQ180 with a DF and SK80mm LS its going to cost me $31,000. :eek:

So much for the generous upgrade promotion as I estimated more in the $20,000 region. I could employ an assistant for a couple of years to hold my laptop and have an ever bigger screen then the IQ's for that sort of money. :(

vieri
18th May 2011, 23:37
Gareth, that sounds a bit too high a quote - your dealer should give you 65% off the price of the new back, and the DF +80mm should be around 4-5000 US or less if bought with a new back...

gazwas
18th May 2011, 23:45
Gareth, that sounds a bit too high a quote - your dealer should give you 65% off the price of the new back, and the DF +80mm should be around 4-5000 US or less if bought with a new back...

That is what I thought (hoped) but not the case for me. :(

Oh well, Phases/my dealers loss and saved me joining Guy's ski mask knitting club.

(I'm not based in the US so unfortunately can't use Doug or Steve)

vieri
18th May 2011, 23:49
That is what I thought (hoped) but not the case for me. :(

Oh well, Phases/my dealers loss and saved me joining Guy's ski mask knitting club.

(I'm not based in the US so unfortunately can't use Doug or Steve)

Where are you based, if I may ask? I am based in Turkey and still get the promotion...

gazwas
19th May 2011, 00:08
Where are you based, if I may ask? I am based in Turkey and still get the promotion...

UK

vieri
19th May 2011, 00:14
UK

Have you tried to contact Phase Denmark directly? That might help - I don't see why they shouldn't honor the deal in the UK as well. Otherwise, you can try any other EU distributor/dealer, you can PM me for the italian dealer's info (I know for a fact that he honors the deal).

Guy Mancuso
19th May 2011, 01:23
That does not sound correct. I would check around

yaya
19th May 2011, 01:41
has anyone done a several shot pano or stitch with one of these babies? I'd like to know how the pano software can handle the file size

I've done some panos and flat stitches and used CS5's photomerge tool. No handling problems (on a laptop) it just takes a bit longer compared to smaller files

Yair

Christopher
19th May 2011, 02:15
PTGui, 20 or 30 P65 files. No problem. Still quite fast for the huge files.

Jack
19th May 2011, 15:42
So I worked the B&W above up a little more and printed it. In a word, WOW! It looks great to be sure, but it also has an elevated level of tonality and depth -- not sure how to describe it, but I'd call it a bit more "glow" than before.

I think I'll offer this one up in the gallery:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/passing_storm_portfolioweb.jpg

Bill Caulfeild-Browne
19th May 2011, 15:46
Jack, I told you it was a great shot already.
Now STOP FLAUNTING THAT BACK!

ps you did process it awfully well.....

Jack
19th May 2011, 15:49
Now STOP FLAUNTING THAT BACK!


I CAN'T STOP!!!! :ROTFL:

(And thank you!)

lance_schad
19th May 2011, 16:00
Gareth, that sounds a bit too high a quote - your dealer should give you 65% off the price of the new back, and the DF +80mm should be around 4-5000 US or less if bought with a new back...

The IQ series upgrade pricing changed at the end of March over here. They adjusted the trade in values to be in line with the amount of Megapixels of the Phase One model, so a P65+=60% trade in value,P45+ = 39%, etc. . Also you are right the DF bundle when purchased with an upgrade is $5k.

Also Jack , Passing Storm is great. I can only imagine how it looks printed large.

Lance

Jack
19th May 2011, 16:53
Also Jack , Passing Storm is great. I can only imagine how it looks printed large.


Thanks Lance! Let me know if you want a copy for your offices ;)

baxter
19th May 2011, 20:00
That really is a superb image Jack. Lots of drama and can see you've used restraint and sensitivity to provide wonderful balance.

etrump
19th May 2011, 20:36
So I worked the B&W above up a little more and printed it. In a word, WOW! It looks great to be sure, but it also has an elevated level of tonality and depth -- not sure how to describe it, but I'd call it a bit more "glow" than before.

I think I'll offer this one up in the gallery:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/passing_storm_portfolioweb.jpg

Awesome b&w Jack! The depth in this image fantastic. Are the foreground trees backlit?

vieri
19th May 2011, 20:59
So I worked the B&W above up a little more and printed it. In a word, WOW! It looks great to be sure, but it also has an elevated level of tonality and depth -- not sure how to describe it, but I'd call it a bit more "glow" than before.

I think I'll offer this one up in the gallery:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/passing_storm_portfolioweb.jpg

All I can say is WOW! :D Great job on the BW conversion, great shot. I hope you have a lot of room left on that wall, it looks like you and your new IQ180 will need it :ROTFL:

PeterL
19th May 2011, 21:15
Amazing shot, Jack! Especially like how you kept the delicate light on the front trees. Ansel would be proud of that one ;-)

Cheers, -Peter

cs750
20th May 2011, 04:29
http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=13813&c=5][img]http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/7/0/3/2/cf000028-copy_thumb.jpg[/imgHere is my first IQ180 image with virtually no processing....I have much to learn in that arena.

cs750
20th May 2011, 04:39
First IQ180 image.

gazwas
20th May 2011, 05:18
First IQ180 image.

So what is your opinion so far compared to the P65+?

Worth the investment?

Jack
20th May 2011, 05:29
Awesome b&w Jack! The depth in this image fantastic. Are the foreground trees backlit?

Thank you everybody! Ed, the Sun was mostly behind clouds, but would have been almost up to overhead and to the right, so more side than back lit where it could sneak through.

cs750
20th May 2011, 06:01
Gareth, my best response is that I do not for a second reqret the upgrade; there is an indescribeable beauty of the images which I rarely was able to get with the P65+. I barely know how to use it at the moment and need much work on getting the most from my processing. I am interested in a technical camera and I believe the IQ180 is going to open up new vistas there. Meanwhile, I have much room for growth with the DF645. I will try to post some more images as soon as I get more time.

cs750
20th May 2011, 06:07
My P65+ tradein: Dave at Capture Integration took possession of my very low mileage P65+ (about 5000 actuations) Wednesday of this week when I picked up the IQ180; so, those who might be interested should be in touch with Dave. Charles

cmb_
20th May 2011, 06:20
Jack - Splendid image and workup! Demands a studious careful viewing.

cs750
20th May 2011, 06:23
Evening Shadows II: The only thing done to this image was to use the brighten slider and sharpen some in converting the image to this jpeg. The image was made using 645DF 80mm, f/11, 1/8s ISO 35. Charles

cs750
20th May 2011, 06:32
Jack, I want to chime in and agree that your Passing Storm image (both color & B & W) image is wonderful! Charles

cs750
20th May 2011, 07:43
One More IQ180 Image with minimum processing: 80mm, 1/15s, f/11, IS0 35, 645DF. Evening Shadows III. Only processing was: Shadow Slider 25 and some sharpening in converting to jpeg. Comments on what you would have done in processing would be much appreciated (I know several things I might do...but wanted to get these images posted with as little processing as possible). Charles

dougpeterson
20th May 2011, 08:06
One More IQ180 Image with minimum processing: 80mm, 1/15s, f/11, IS0 35, 645DF. Evening Shadows III. Only processing was: Shadow Slider 25 and some sharpening in converting to jpeg. Comments on what you would have done in processing would be much appreciated (I know several things I might do...but wanted to get these images posted with as little processing as possible). Charles

I think this is a great candidate for a minor exposure drop followed by a low % HDR using the HDR via LCC in Capture One (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/12/28/hdr-via-lcc/).

Not to take it into la-la land but to just bring up the light fall off across the subject matter in the bottom right and avoid those shadow areas becoming muddy/visually-undifferentiated.

Should take under a minute and very little effort to do. I'd suggest starting at -0.3 exposure (from where you are now) and a 15% HDR ("light fall off" slider at 15% after you do the LCC>Analyze). If it's your first time using this technique don't freak out when you push analyze and the image goes nuts - just uncheck "color cast" and turn the fall-off slider down to around 15%.

Edit: the main point of the 0.3 stop exposure drop would be to prevent those rocks in the center from being blown out. A local "burn" via a quick Local Adjustment Layer would also work for that purpose.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
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cs750
20th May 2011, 09:20
Doug, thanks for your suggestions and I will play with them this evening....unfortunately I have work to do on the "honey do" list, and it is not a good plan for me to let the IQ180 interfere with that right now! Charles

Christopher
20th May 2011, 11:06
I think this is a great candidate for a minor exposure drop followed by a low % HDR using the HDR via LCC in Capture One (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/12/28/hdr-via-lcc/).

Not to take it into la-la land but to just bring up the light fall off across the subject matter in the bottom right and avoid those shadow areas becoming muddy/visually-undifferentiated.

Should take under a minute and very little effort to do. I'd suggest starting at -0.3 exposure (from where you are now) and a 15% HDR ("light fall off" slider at 15% after you do the LCC>Analyze). If it's your first time using this technique don't freak out when you push analyze and the image goes nuts - just uncheck "color cast" and turn the fall-off slider down to around 15%.

Edit: the main point of the 0.3 stop exposure drop would be to prevent those rocks in the center from being blown out. A local "burn" via a quick Local Adjustment Layer would also work for that purpose.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
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Well, the HDR method is Great. It is very sad that it does not work for a lot of people. So I can only urge phase to allow two corrections or a different tool for the HDR method.

hcubell
20th May 2011, 12:22
Gareth, my best response is that I do not for a second reqret the upgrade; there is an indescribeable beauty of the images which I rarely was able to get with the P65+...

Jack, I am a bit surprised by this comment on the image quality of the IQ180. I had the impression from your earlier commentary that any image quality improvements that you saw in the IQ180 files compared to the P65 were quite subtle and incremental.
I do hope you are right, though!

Don Libby
20th May 2011, 13:28
My P65+ tradein: Dave at Capture Integration took possession of my very low mileage P65+ (about 5000 actuations) Wednesday of this week when I picked up the IQ180; so, those who might be interested should be in touch with Dave. Charles

One guess who just received your old back!

Don

cs750
20th May 2011, 13:41
Don, I think you will get much more out of My P65+. I hope you will be very happy with it. I note you show Atlanta as "one of your locations". I can barely handle one location! Some time when you are in Atlanta, and want to explore north Georgia with your camera...give me a call. I have a separate apartment at my rural north Georgia home and maybe we could get in some photography. I warn you though....I will be trying to extract as much as I can learn while you are here. That offer also applies to anyone else from GetDPI. Jack and Guy....are you listening? You need at least one workshop in the southeast. Charles

Don Libby
20th May 2011, 13:55
Don, I think you will get much more out of My P65+. I hope you will be very happy with it. I note you show Atlanta as "one of your locations". I can barely handle one location! Some time when you are in Atlanta, and want to explore north Georgia with your camera...give me a call. I have a separate apartment at my rural north Georgia home and maybe we could get in some photography. I warn you though....I will be trying to extract as much as I can learn while you are here. That offer also applies to anyone else from GetDPI. Jack and Guy....are you listening? You need at least one workshop in the southeast. Charles

Sounds good to me and thank you.

Don

Guy Mancuso
20th May 2011, 14:32
Don, I think you will get much more out of My P65+. I hope you will be very happy with it. I note you show Atlanta as "one of your locations". I can barely handle one location! Some time when you are in Atlanta, and want to explore north Georgia with your camera...give me a call. I have a separate apartment at my rural north Georgia home and maybe we could get in some photography. I warn you though....I will be trying to extract as much as I can learn while you are here. That offer also applies to anyone else from GetDPI. Jack and Guy....are you listening? You need at least one workshop in the southeast. Charles

Don't have to ask me twice. LoL


Fun seeing you all getting your new backs. Really happy for all of you and no I'm not jealous but anxious when they start shipping the IQ 160. I would have had a 180 when Jack got his. There was one with my name on it. I assure you though I will be the first to get my model or I'm on the warpath and that is not a pretty sight. Lol

Guy Mancuso
20th May 2011, 14:33
iPhone is worse than me at spelling . That's bad

Jack
20th May 2011, 15:16
Gareth, my best response is that I do not for a second reqret the upgrade; there is an indescribeable beauty of the images which I rarely was able to get with the P65+...

Jack, I am a bit surprised by this comment on the image quality of the IQ180. I had the impression from your earlier commentary that any image quality improvements that you saw in the IQ180 files compared to the P65 were quite subtle and incremental.
I do hope you are right, though!

Howard,

Please note you quoted cs750's comment on image quality differences and NOT mine! I stand by my earlier comments -- the P65+ delivers outstanding image quality. The IQ180 does improve that a notch, a subtle, yet definitely visible and tangible notch. As I said earlier, the best way I can describe it is it's about the same incremental level of increase we got moving from the P45+ to the P65+.

Hope that clarifies!

hcubell
20th May 2011, 17:23
Howard,

Please note you quoted cs750's comment on image quality differences and NOT mine! I stand by my earlier comments -- the P65+ delivers outstanding image quality. The IQ180 does improve that a notch, a subtle, yet definitely visible and tangible notch. As I said earlier, the best way I can describe it is it's about the same incremental level of increase we got moving from the P45+ to the P65+.

Hope that clarifies!

Thanks, Jack. My mistake. I was hoping your images from your Yosemite trip had blown you away and prompted you to reset the bar... [G]

gazwas
21st May 2011, 04:05
Thanks, Jack. My mistake. I was hoping your images from your Yosemite trip had blown you away and prompted you to reset the bar... [G]

While Jacks shot is totally amazing I think a good eye and mother nature has a lot more to do with it than the IQ180. ;)

Terry
21st May 2011, 04:09
While Jacks shot is totally amazing I think a good eye and mother nature has a lot more to do with it than the IQ180. ;)

All I can say is even in this small jpeg the detail is incredible

cs750
21st May 2011, 05:12
Quality Issues: P65+ vs. IQ180 Please don't use anything I said to undermine the quality of P65 images. I agree with Jack's statement that the P65+ delivers outstanding quality images, and the IQ180 steps that up a notch. I have no doubt the more experienced and capable the user...the more quality images the user can obtain with either. Charles

MGrayson
21st May 2011, 07:46
I know it is tempting to judge picture detail from web versions, so here is a small section of Jack's Yosemite picture rescaled back to 80mp. I hope this gives an idea about how much detail is lost downscaling for the web!
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=235&pictureid=2223

Jack, I hope it's OK to do this to your beautiful picture. If not, let me know and I'll destroy all copies.:ROTFL:

Best,

Matt

Jack
21st May 2011, 08:02
No, it's fine -- but just let's make sure everybody knows that up-rezzing that much does NOT work the same way downrezzing does -- fact of physics. Anyway, here is an actual crop from the image, this is the tip of first sister just above and left of Bridal Veil Falls:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/stormcrop.jpg


Note in the downsized web version, you can still tell there are trees in that spot:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/passing_storm_portfolioweb.jpg

What you can see in the crop that you cannot see in the web version is the incredible tonal separation in the fogged trees on the ridge behind the sister, and that tonality does show up in even a small 8x10 print.

Dan Santoso
21st May 2011, 08:45
Amazing details. I cant wait for mine soon

Speaking of landscape, which lens is in must have list? I have 28mm, 80 LS, 110LS, and 150 so far. I was thinking to get the 300mm but it is 1.4KG ouch.

I am a small guy I cant carry too much stuff :)

Thanks

Jack
21st May 2011, 09:25
Amazing details. I cant wait for mine soon

Speaking of landscape, which lens is in must have list? I have 28mm, 80 LS, 110LS, and 150 so far. I was thinking to get the 300mm but it is 1.4KG ouch.

I am a small guy I cant carry too much stuff :)

Thanks

If I could only carry one lens for landscape, it would be the 55LS. Second one would be the 110LS.

MGrayson
21st May 2011, 10:34
No, it's fine -- but just let's make sure everybody knows that up-rezzing that much does NOT work the same way downrezzing does -- fact of physics.

Yep, not having the original to compare with, I had no choice. The point was to show how much detail is lost in downrezzing without screaming "web images are useless":deadhorse:

Matt

Dan Santoso
21st May 2011, 10:48
why is that? what are you reason? no 28mm?

Professional
21st May 2011, 13:24
So is that mean only IQ180 can give you the best details out of all other digital backs in the world and can't be matched?

GrahamWelland
21st May 2011, 13:29
So is that mean only IQ180 can give you the best details out of all other digital backs in the world and can't be matched?

I think an IQ-180 vs Aptus II 12 face off is needed to answer that one. IQ certainly has the latest technology for the user interface at least but I haven't seen any actual image comparisons between the two backs. I'm sure that each has it's own special image/look sauce.

Christopher
21st May 2011, 13:33
I'm pretty sure there won't be a difference. Perhaps in DR and color, but not in Res. I really like what I have in the IQ180, but honestly I don't see much difference when it comes to resolution between the 80 and 60Mp, for me the step from the P45 to the P65 was a lot more. Or to say it better more visible when it comes to resolution

vieri
21st May 2011, 13:41
Amazing details. I cant wait for mine soon

Speaking of landscape, which lens is in must have list? I have 28mm, 80 LS, 110LS, and 150 so far. I was thinking to get the 300mm but it is 1.4KG ouch.

I am a small guy I cant carry too much stuff :)

Thanks


If I could only carry one lens for landscape, it would be the 55LS. Second one would be the 110LS.

Indeed. I couldn't agree more! I don't see nearly enough talks about the 55 LS, but it's an amazing lens and a very useful focal...


why is that? what are you reason? no 28mm?

...28 is great in confined spaces, but not necessarily very useful for landscapes, especially if you are at some distance; I am not saying you'll not use it nor need it, you will indeed at times, but my one lens kit would be 55 LS or 80 LS, two lens 55 - 110 or 150, three lens 55 - 80 - 150, four lens 28 - 55 - 80 - 150, 5 lens 28, 55, 80, 110, 150 (which is the easiest kit to figure: just bring'em all! :ROTFL: )

Guy Mancuso
21st May 2011, 13:49
I'm down to 35d new, 55ls, 80 LS, 110ls, 300 and may have just added 210. Landscape I use 110 more than the rest followed closely by the 55. But end of day I use every lens in my bag. Things may change slightly in use with FF now

Christopher
21st May 2011, 13:51
For landscape there are only two lenses for me. 40 and 90 :)

Jack
21st May 2011, 16:06
why is that? what are you reason? no 28mm?

Your original question was "Which lens is a must have on my list" and your list did not include a 55, so that's the question I answered --- if you don't like the answer, I'm sorry. Fact is, I use my 55, 110 and 80 in that order most of the time for landscapes. I regularly a 35 and 105-210 to cover the other ends. I keep the 300 in the car mostly. I do not shoot ultra wide very often, so sold my 28 when I got a very good copy of the 35. Also, for the few times I may want really wide, I can stitch two or more 55 or even 80 frames and get the effect of the 28 or even wider.

Hope that helps,

Jack
21st May 2011, 16:12
So is that mean only IQ180 can give you the best details out of all other digital backs in the world and can't be matched?

Who said that? What I said is that the IQ180 is at a new level for performance on both resolution and DR compared to my previous cameras. I have not been offered one to test, but I suspect the 80MP Aptus 12 is very near the same -- it could even be better on one or the other or both...

Jack
21st May 2011, 16:15
For landscape there are only two lenses for me. 40 and 90 :)

When I get my tech camera, my three lenses will be the 43, 72 and 120 Schneiders. If I went with Rodies, it would be 40, 70 and 120. If I could only get two, it would probably be a 43 and 90 or 100.

Professional
21st May 2011, 16:34
It depends on the landscapes you shoot, i am a landscape photographer but unfortunately i don't live in a landscape country or region, so i have to travel for that, and if i can make an equivalent of MF to 35mm then my most landscapes shots were between 16mm and 30mm, so i think that means i need something wider than 55mm, i can say that 35-40 will be adequate, but i used 28mm more these days and i really love it even with distortion, i just something a bit longer than 28 and wider than 55 and i am set.
I used 120 macro on desert and i found out it does a great job except i need to focus manually, and my 80mm is my most used lens on my H body, so i can't finalize that what is fine with me should be too for you, i really don't know what is that 55mm on MFD equivalent to 35mm format.

Jack
21st May 2011, 16:57
, i really don't know what is that 55mm on MFD equivalent to 35mm format.

On full-frame MF, a 55 lens is about equivalent to a 32 in 35mm terms; a 28 is about a 19; a 35 is about a 23; an 80 is about a 53, and a 110 is about a 65; and a 150 is about a 100; and a 210 is about a 140... However, if you correct distortions, you "loose" about 10% of the net focal, so they get effectively longer by about 10%...

Professional
21st May 2011, 17:41
On full-frame MF, a 55 lens is about equivalent to a 32 in 35mm terms; a 28 is about a 19; a 35 is about a 23; an 80 is about a 53, and a 110 is about a 65; and a 150 is about a 100; and a 210 is about a 140... However, if you correct distortions, you "loose" about 10% of the net focal, so they get effectively longer by about 10%...

So that i said i do something between 16mm up to 30mm, but my most most focal length i use almost like 80% is 24mm, what is that equivalent to MF[FF or crop]??? 35mm i think???

Guy Mancuso
21st May 2011, 18:58
Correct the 35 is about a 22/23 lens in 35. Nice focal length

GrahamWelland
21st May 2011, 19:08
Correct the 35 is about a 22/23 lens in 35. Nice focal length

Well, just to clarify, it is if you are shooting a full frame MFDB like an IQ160/180, Aptus II 10/12 or similar. With a typical crop sensor such as a P40+ you would use a 28mm for the same FoV. :thumbup:

Dan Santoso
21st May 2011, 19:19
Thanks guys u r not making it easier haha.

might have to get the 55LS now or the 300mm.

with 55LS focal length I can crop from my 28mm lens

but i dont have anything longer than 150mm now

think think think:(

Guy Mancuso
21st May 2011, 20:02
The 300 is a nice lens but I will replace it with the new 240ls when it comes out. But I have been very successful with the 300 even wide open or 5.6 doing stage work. Focuses very fast and has nice contrast and look. They are not really that expensive either around 1800. But the 55 is like a must have no matter what you shoot. My goal is all the Schneider glass I can get. Like the look of them. I'm after look more than anything.

Professional
21st May 2011, 20:03
Well, just to clarify, it is if you are shooting a full frame MFDB like an IQ160/180, Aptus II 10/12 or similar. With a typical crop sensor such as a P40+ you would use a 28mm for the same FoV. :thumbup:

I was using 28mm on H3D 39, it was nice wide, but now on H4D-60, it is crazy damn wide, so if i don't like it i better go with 35mm, not sure if that 50mm will suit better, but i am that guy who go to wider side more than longer for outdoors/landscapes.

Shelby Lewis
21st May 2011, 20:24
http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/stormcrop.jpg



Hey Jack... are those hot-pixels or sharpening artifacts or jpeg artifacts throughout the pic (or what?)?

When present, I'd expect to see hot-pixels in all the shadow areas, and I don't always, so I'm a bit perplexed. I guess they could actually be small areas of snow, but they look like they are quite a bit brighter than the snow surrounding them. Jpeg junk? Is this sharpened for print (ie, too much for screen).

As impressive as it is, this 100% crop looks very "digital" to me...

No negativity here, just a bit of confusion. Care to clarify? Thanks!

Jack
21st May 2011, 20:37
Shelby, that is snow on the upward exposed edges of the jagged rock -- it was snowing while I captured this shot. There is no single pixel noise and moreover, there is no pixel in this image at over a 98L value, or about 250 in 8-bit pixel parlance.

Shelby Lewis
21st May 2011, 20:39
Shelby, that is snow on the upward exposed edges of the jagged rock -- it was snowing while I captured this shot. There is no single pixel noise and moreover, there is no pixel in this image at over a 98L value, or about 250 in 8-bit pixel parlance.

Well... I trust you Jack, so there it is. :D

Thanks. It's scary, then, just how much detail this thing is capturing. Really scary. :eek:

Jack
21st May 2011, 20:48
Yes, it is scary and that is the point --- if you look at a map of the valley, that particular spire behind Bridalveil falls is about 2 *MILES* as the crow flies away from the tunnel view overlook, and this frame was taken with a moderate wideangle 55mm lens...

Dan Santoso
21st May 2011, 21:02
Thanks Guy.

Forgot bout the 240LS :) 55LS path then for me

Guy Mancuso
21st May 2011, 21:06
Btw the 300 is somewhat big so keep that in mind

Jack
21st May 2011, 21:07
And the 240LS is not likely to be small ;)

etrump
21st May 2011, 21:39
No, it's fine -- but just let's make sure everybody knows that up-rezzing that much does NOT work the same way downrezzing does -- fact of physics. Anyway, here is an actual crop from the image, this is the tip of first sister just above and left of Bridal Veil Falls:

What you can see in the crop that you cannot see in the web version is the incredible tonal separation in the fogged trees on the ridge behind the sister, and that tonality does show up in even a small 8x10 print.

Sweet! My IQ180 arrives on Monday and it is a good thing, all this gloating is driving me nuts. :ROTFL:

vieri
21st May 2011, 23:33
When I get my tech camera, my three lenses will be the 43, 72 and 120 Schneiders. If I went with Rodies, it would be 40, 70 and 120. If I could only get two, it would probably be a 43 and 90 or 100.

My tech camera lenses are 28 (Rode), 47, 90 & 180 (all Schneider). Mostly the 28 is for interior though, while I sometimes bring it along too I found that I use it very very sparsely on landscape - 47 is wide enough in 98% of the cases. Plus the 28 is quite large & heavy, tough to filter, and with a sliding adapter the 47 covers almost the same area of the 28 (add a little camera rotation and you are easily there).

Christopher
22nd May 2011, 04:16
What is the current IQ180 firmware number ?

Dan Santoso
23rd May 2011, 04:50
I just got my Iq180, nice Screen :)

I played around for 4 mins and I cant find the IIQ S setting ( no option for it)

Does anyone else experience this?

Thanks

Dan Santoso
23rd May 2011, 04:58
my firmware 1.02.0

nightfire
23rd May 2011, 04:59
What you can see in the crop that you cannot see in the web version is the incredible tonal separation in the fogged trees on the ridge behind the sister, and that tonality does show up in even a small 8x10 print.
Incredible detail and tonality indeed! As possibly the last P45+ user around, what am I to do now? :cry:

dougpeterson
23rd May 2011, 05:35
Incredible detail and tonality indeed! As possibly the last P45+ user around, what am I to do now? :cry:

Take 20 minute exposures, post them, and poo poo all the poor non 45+ users that can't match it! :-)

Jack
23rd May 2011, 06:34
Incredible detail and tonality indeed! As possibly the last P45+ user around, what am I to do now? :cry:


Take 20 minute exposures, post them, and poo poo all the poor non 45+ users that can't match it! :-)

Or you could just buy the IQ180 and keep the P45+, thus having the ultimates in all worlds and making me insanely jealous!

:eek:

Jack
24th May 2011, 05:45
I need to come back and elaborate one more point that while insignificant for many may be important to a few: monochrome conversions.

Typically with digital, a monochrome conversion is somewhat lacking when compared to a traditional wet, large negative B&W. That has improved steadily, especially as resolutions have gone up in MF backs -- and got to a very acceptable level for myself and many other traditionalists with the P65+. However if you are a B&W shooter, I think I am safe saying the IQ180 takes monochrome print output to a new, higher level. While still not equivalent to a perfectly implemented 4x5 or 5x7 B&W, it is pushing in pretty close. Accutance is easily there in print and IMHO even better now; and a very similar "depth and roundness" is now present too. The traditional highlight "glow" while somewhat more perceptible as well, is probably the one factor not yet in the same league as wet, LF silver. All in all, I am impressed with how well the IQ180 mono conversions print off my Epson 7900 printer and coated art papers. Offered FWIW...

etrump
24th May 2011, 19:16
The traditional highlight "glow" while somewhat more perceptible as well, is probably the one factor not yet in the same league as wet, LF silver. Offered FWIW...

Spot on Jack, I have been trying several techniques to imitate that glow and felt like the P65+ was almost getting it. Even to the point of printing silver halide lightjet prints and different lighting approaches. The look I am getting is a "missed it by that much" frustration - almost but not quite the magic.

I won't have time to really work the IQ180 for a few weeks but your comments have me itching to get some quality shooting time in.

gogopix
26th May 2011, 10:51
Well, looks like the P1/M mount backs are shipping. Anybody get a back yet that was NOT for a Phase camera?
I missed it for the Italy trip...I hope it makes it for my France trip....in september!:eek:

Victor

woodyspedden
26th May 2011, 10:53
No, it's fine -- but just let's make sure everybody knows that up-rezzing that much does NOT work the same way downrezzing does -- fact of physics. Anyway, here is an actual crop from the image, this is the tip of first sister just above and left of Bridal Veil Falls:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/stormcrop.jpg


Note in the downsized web version, you can still tell there are trees in that spot:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/passing_storm_portfolioweb.jpg

What you can see in the crop that you cannot see in the web version is the incredible tonal separation in the fogged trees on the ridge behind the sister, and that tonality does show up in even a small 8x10 print.

Hi Jack

The print you made for me of this image just arrived. All I can say is WOW!

Tonality is just fabulous......DR is very special.....Composition spot on.

This one is going to become a classic. You heard it here first

Best

Woody

gogopix
26th May 2011, 11:28
Shelby, that is snow on the upward exposed edges of the jagged rock -- it was snowing while I captured this shot. There is no single pixel noise and moreover, there is no pixel in this image at over a 98L value, or about 250 in 8-bit pixel parlance.

Dear Jack

Sorry to hark back to your original images (we've been abroad for a few weeks) but I have a question on the 100% crops. In the crown moulding (blue) and in the brass of the clock there seems to be b lotchiness. I assume this is jpg artifacts due to the colors being close and thus creating a KIND of noise? It could also be due to the pulling at 35 ISO, but just wondered what the processed tiffs showed.

What's incredible is the DR of the sign in the cab of the middle picture. This is clearly an improvement over the P+ backs.

Anyway nice review...just the thing to make me ask WHERE"S MY IQ180 ("C" mount:D

Victor

Jack
26th May 2011, 19:19
Hi Jack

The print you made for me of this image just arrived. All I can say is WOW!

Tonality is just fabulous......DR is very special.....Composition spot on.

This one is going to become a classic. You heard it here first

Best

Woody

Woody,

Thank you very much -- and really happy you enjoy the print!