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Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 08:44
Morning everyone as requested from a previous test. Folks wanted to see a three way 75mm test so thanks to leica for first sending the 75mm Summarit to me than followed out with a rush to getme the 75 cron also. having the 75 lux myself we now have 3 of leica's 75mm lenses for a comparison test.
I am posting this both on the Luf and here at the same time

Okay details shot early in the morning at 8 am so the light is still warm and i put color charts in but i did not WB these , lets just look at the warm light as it is. This is not a color test per say or a sharpness test yet. Sharpness test will be later. This is a color, contrast, saturation plus a 3/4 figure size test for bokeh which i know everyone is more interested in than anything else. I processed these in LR 1.31 and slightly adjusted the Lux exposure to match everything the 1.4 Lux exposure is brighter in all testing i have done with it. I did focus test every lens with LCD but as we all know like Sean does is actually change the focus slightly to find the best series , that i did not do here on this test but will on the sharpness test. BTW sean is also testing the 75 summarit, cron and i believe the CV 75 so look for that when he gets that up also.

So lets go in this order always LUX, CRON, SUMMARIT


let me post all of the test than please comment later will let you know when i am done , long series here

First the Lux at 1.4

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 08:47
Lux and Cron at F2

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 08:49
2.5 series Lux,Cron and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 08:52
2.8 series Lux,Cron and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 08:54
F4 series Lux,Cron and Summarit

robsteve
12th December 2007, 08:55
Looks like the Summicron wins.

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 08:56
5.6 series Lux,Cron and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 08:59
Okay another series that i think folks REALLY want to look at is up close and what the bokh looks like . I am almost at minimum focus 3.5 feet or so. So reality a nice tight headshot but with a twist i turned the scarecrow almost 80 degree angle and focused right on the nose and the X marks . This way you can see the front and back bokeh as well.

Okay Lux at 1.4

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 09:01
F2 LUX and CRON

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 09:04
2.5 LUX CRON and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 09:06
2.8 LUX CRON and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 09:10
F4 Lux , Cron and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 09:14
F5.6 Lux , Cron and summarit

jlm
12th December 2007, 09:16
looks like your daughter has take a turn for the worse ;)

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 09:17
End of this test. More test to follow like a sharpness test. as you can see there pretty darn close . there is some bokeh difference which is very slight on the same apertures and a little contrast difference as well but you have to look closely to see this stuff. Now i already know with the sharpness test the Cron and Summarits will be better becuase i already did a LUX , Summarit test but i will do a new one with all three now

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 09:18
gave her a break John. :ROTFL:

That's her girlfriend scary Mary:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 09:25
Pretty interesting test so far. Damn there all good:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

If anyone wants to link these to other sites for folks to get the info . Please do.

Stuart Richardson
12th December 2007, 09:36
One thing I noticed right away is that the summarit has more apparent depth of field at equal apertures. The backgrounds seem to be a bit more recognizable with the summarit than with the summicron or summilux. My eyes could be playing tricks on me, but that's what I see.

Also, if you look at the first image of the summilux in the second test (the one of the scarecrow at f/1.4) you can see the "fuzzy/glowing/bleeding" effect that you get in the highlights with the summilux at 1.4. I think it is one of the things that makes the lens so interesting. It gives things an ethereal feel that I think very few lenses can do. Here is another example of it...
http://www.stuartrichardson.com/ivy-75lux.jpg

Stuart Richardson
12th December 2007, 09:39
Here's another example at more of a distance. It is not just it being out of focus, it is spherical aberration or coma...something more like that. Look at the highlights around the statue...despite it being in focus, they seem to "glow"...they bleed out a bit from where they actually should stop. You don't get this effect at all with the summicron or even with the summilux at f/2 and smaller.
http://www.stuartrichardson.com/lion-statue.jpg

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 09:42
Stuart nice pickup. Jack and i were just talking on the phone about the same thing. At 1.4 it's just a different lens, lower contrast and that leica glow to it. I will do the sharpness test too but the Lux will drag the lower end on that until 2.8. From a technical standpoint the Cron and Summarits are better but from a look standpoint the Lux has a look wide open

Stuart Richardson
12th December 2007, 09:46
I won't argue with you there. But that's also why I like it. If I want the sharpness, I set it to f/4 or f/5.6, if I want the look, I set it at f/1.4-2. For me, that makes it a more versatile lens. And frankly, when you absolutely need the speed at this focal length, it's going to be soft anyway because it is hard to handhold a long lens at less than 1/30th.

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 09:58
I call it my two fer lens. Just like you described and when I absolutely need sharp , nothing touches my 50 lux asph at any aperture. It really comes to what you are after in a lens and at what focal length you want it. For that glow look 75mm is great for people. I will keep testing the three though because folks need to see the sharpness difference in the open apertures. This will be a tough choice for some folks too because the Lux is a tank and at F2 and 2.5 the Cron and Summarits are really wonderful. I am impressed though with the 75mm summarit and it's price point and the quality this lens has. i did buy the 90mm summarit and really like it a lot. So for those watching there spending the Summarit opens up the door wide open and can get a awesome lens for a nice price. I would not hesitate to buy one for a second.

Stuart Richardson
12th December 2007, 10:13
We are on the same page! I think the tests are really interesting too. Leica seems to have outdone themselves with the summarits. The summicrons seem to be hit the hardest. The summiluxes and noctilux are there when you need the speed at all costs, but the difference between the summicrons and the summarits seems to be just the half stop and not much else.

Jack
12th December 2007, 10:21
Stuart and Guy obviously have to agree with everything you're saying. I think at f2 through 4, the Cron or the Summi are sharper, but no special look. Of course the Cron is smaller, and the Summi wonderfully compact for travel, so definitely worth considering for that. For a portrait lens, the sharpness isn't always a benefit (:)), and with the Lux we almost have a variable sharpness settings below f4...

At the end of the day, the 75 Lux is another multi-dimensional lens like the 35 version IV Cron.

Cheers,

carstenw
12th December 2007, 11:23
I was more impressed with the 35 and 90 Summarits, somehow. The 75 doesn't quite have the same look as the Cron, and the Lux is just much softer at f/1.4-2.0, catching up with the Cron at f/2.8-4.0 and at f/5.6 I don't see significant differences. The Summarit has a somewhat messier bo-ke look, I think. A bit more strained. The Cron is amazingly good. Maybe I will get one some day after all. What is life for anyway, if not to accumulate Leica lenses with time :) I do love the Lux glow wide open, but wish for more of it, like the 80 Lux-R (or the Noctilux on the M8).

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 11:44
Yea lets see how these sharpness tests come in. The Summarit I agree has a slight bite to the bokeh compared to the Lux and cron. We also have to remember in real world we won't have 3 images of 3 different lenses either to compare against.

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 11:50
The other thing to is Seans test of these also and i would like to see what he came up with in regards to the 75 CV lens in his test

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 19:45
Let's try a little something here this is not part of the sharpness test because i really have to do the test and be absolute certain that i am completely on target. And i could be off here but these are really tight crops and lets just see how they faired but let me get the real test done tomorrow just to be sure because the Cron maybe off. The summarit here looks really good and i know the Cron is better

lets put the Lux 1.4 up. Again this is not absolute until i am really comfortable with a real test on sharpness

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 19:46
F2 Lux than Cron

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 19:48
2.5 LUX, CRON and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 19:50
2.8 LUX, CRON and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 19:54
As you can see i maybe off on the Cron because the Summarit killed it so let me do a better test tomorrow and that way we know for sure. Here i think the Lux and Summarit are correct though. notice the Lux still did not catch up at 2.8 tough and at F4 it does which i will do those crops from the better test

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 19:58
What's interesting even though the cron is off look how damn sharp the Summarit is at 2.5 wide open. Folks that is damn good considering the crop

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 20:03
This also leads to my other conclusion with the 90 Summarit i just flat out do not miss focus with that lens and reason i bought it and sold the Cron because i do miss with the 90 cron. Interesting is the same thing happening on the 75mm and the Lux i don't hardly miss, is this a Cron thing i just don't know but it certainly is fitting the same pattern as the 90mm. Scary

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 20:09
I think I have Cron disease. :ROTFL:

LJL
12th December 2007, 20:11
Yea lets see how these sharpness tests come in. The Summarit I agree has a slight bite to the bokeh compared to the Lux and cron. We also have to remember in real world we won't have 3 images of 3 different lenses either to compare against.

Guy,
First, thanks ever so much for taking the time to do this and post results. It is very nice to see how things are working for the various lenses.

And that is exactly the value of this to the point you made.....most (maybe all) of us are NOT going to be doing this kind of shooting with each lens, so getting one that is more comfortable for individual tastes and needs is really important.

From what I am seeing, and from my own shooting with a 75 Cron (yeah, you should remember that beauty :)), the Lux has its own slightly softer world wide open, and does resemble the Nocti in that respect....very nice for sure. The Cron, on the other had, looks to be delivering more saturation, more contrast, and overall more zip, but without the distracting bokeh that comes more into play with the Summarit. On their wide open ends, they all have a somewhat distinctive signature to me....Cron is crisp, but with a smooth bokeh, Summarit would be next for sharpness, but bokeh looks a bit less smooth, and the Lux has its own unique, smooth glow to it, but gives up contrast and saturation to achieve that. All look very nice, and it is great to have the options.

I guess the more telling test would be how things look in other "real world" shooting that one might use these lenses for capture. I am thinking portrait shooting here, where that lower contrast and dreamier bokeh on the Lux may be more suited for lovely women portraits, while the Cron may deliver a sharper edge look for more traditional male shots. The Summarit might just turn out to be an excellent all-purpose shooter here, yielding a nice intermediate contrast, and where the bokeh may not matter quite as much shooting against a backdrop or something. Just thinking aloud after reading comments and seeing your images.

Really do not think one can go wrong with any of them, and as we see, around f4-5.6 or so, the field looks pretty level.

Again, thanks for doing the work and posting the results. Not going to give up my Cron, but the Lux and the Summarit both look very nice also.

LJ

Guy Mancuso
12th December 2007, 20:20
Well said LJ well said. The Summarits do have a slight bite to them in the 75mm. i think the 90mm is smoother in the bokeh. I'm sitting here like a lot of folks with a 75 lux and we all hate the weight and size but it is a hard lens to give up and for me i nail focus with it pretty easily so not sure mine is going anywhere except my bag. But this does ask a lot of questions which one you want in that bag. Certain things we can add in processing but Bokeh is not one of them. We can add contrast and saturation at will in post so you have the choices to do that. Tough call really

David K
12th December 2007, 20:21
Guy,
Great test and interesting results. Is there a reason that the shots taken with the Lux show greenish markings on the scarecrow's face while the Cron and Summarit look brown?

PeterA
12th December 2007, 20:24
I have always been a big fan of the 75 lux - but from all shots posted the cron seems to be the lens to get if you want sharpness and contrast. interestingly all three lenses I think look as sharp as each other ( maybe the lux a tad behind) at 2.5 and above...I am restocking my M line of lenses and I thought that the lux was a certainty - but after this test maybe a cron suits me just as well...

what am I saying!!:??? LOL sorry 75 lux for that wide open look..cant be beat..

LJL
12th December 2007, 20:31
I would say yes and no about the added saturation and contrast. It is true that we can pump those up, or tone them down in post, but there still seems to be a bit of difference in how that saturation and contrast look among the lenses as your images show. On every shot from the Cron, I can immediately see that deeper reddish color in the burlap below the scarecrow's head. The green background stuff also has a bit deep look to it, sort of like moving the black point up a notch or two. That may be too much for some folks and some applications, but it comes naturally from the lens.

The bokeh is its own story, as you well note. On that last series of shots, look at the out of focus area in the far upper right corner for each lens. Only the Cron seems to keep rendering that green smooth, while both the Lux and the Summarit show a bit more definition to the shrubbery in a slightly more jarring (to me) way. Not a big deal at all, but that does come through.

The Lux may be heavy, but it does things at f1.4 that are simply wonderful. The Cron is a bit lighter and smaller, but a bit less forgiving for things also. (BTW, I am shipping mine off for focus calibration....I compensate now, but I want the lens set properly so I do NOT have to think and guess how much adjustment to make, regardless of how small.) And the Summarit seems to be able to deliver an outstanding image in a smaller, lighter, and less expensive package. If one does not need the extra stops, or is shooting things where bokeh may not be quite as important for the overall effect, it would be a very hard lens to pass up. If one does normally prefer shooting around f4 and up, the Summarit would be the hands down choice from a size/cost/value perspective, I think.

LJ

jonoslack
13th December 2007, 02:05
HI Guy (and everyone)
I've read most of the thread, and it's simply confirmed how pleased I am that I have the 75 'cron!
The lux is most desirable, but it's really large, and I think I'd still want to carry the 'cron around . . . . and if I want that dreamy look I can get the REAL DREAM with the noctilux!

As for the new lens, I'm not really convinced, results look fine (and so's the price) but for me it has two obvious shortcomings:
1. the bokeh is not as nice
2. it doesn't focus as close.

For me (and of course, this is only me) the 75 cron covers a number of bases - I think I'm right in saying that only the 90 macro has a larger magnification ratio at close focus - it's lovely for doing close up and detail shots, and it's still sharp wide open (with that lovely bokeh).

Sure, it may be a little brutal for portraits, but that's easy enough to deal with later . . . and it has that lovely bokeh).

The summarit isn't that much smaller, it doesn't focus as close, and if I had it, then I'd need another lens for that function.

So, for me, it's the 'cron every time:

http://www.slack.co.uk/oddsandends/L5060504.jpg

workingcamera
13th December 2007, 02:10
Cheers Guy brilliant little comparison review thank you for doing this. Most interesting

I have to admit love my Lux its just one of those lenses that has something.

But what strikes me here, and given the Lux has been around for quite a while, is just how well it stands up against the modern designs in terms of the technical side of things.

workingcamera
13th December 2007, 02:19
Just had to have another look through the pics …. Gee that Cron is a snappy little beast! That extra contrast does also produced extra punch in the colours.

It is a beautiful lens in every respect and handles so nicely on the Ms

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 03:39
Technically the Cron can't be beat no question there . Leica even told me this in Germany and maybe part of the reason they let the Lux go from there line and i agree at F2 maybe the best lens overall, closer focus, bokeh still extremely smooth, still a nice size , contrast and saturation extremely good. Than you throw that 1.4 look in there and you have to wonder. Now if your a Nocti person like Jono said you can still get that look but i wonder if your a 50 Lux Asph guy can i get that look at 1.4 probably not since it is so well corrected. Let's face it the 75 LUX at 1.4 is not normal in a lens technically it's spherical aberrations and is a bad thing but it looks nice.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 03:55
Here let me color correct 3 images all at 2.8. I WB of each card on the bottom inside left patch in LR . This is how the colors should look.

LUX, Cron, Summarit

jonoslack
13th December 2007, 03:59
Technically the Cron can't be beat no question there . Leica even told me this in Germany and maybe part of the reason they let the Lux go from there line and i agree at F2 maybe the best lens overall, closer focus, bokeh still extremely smooth, still a nice size , contrast and saturation extremely good. Than you throw that 1.4 look in there and you have to wonder. Now if your a Nocti person like Jono said you can still get that look but i wonder if your a 50 Lux Asph guy can i get that look at 1.4 probably not since it is so well corrected. Let's face it the 75 LUX at 1.4 is not normal in a lens technically it's spherical aberrations and is a bad thing but it looks nice.

Hi Guy
Nothing dreamy about the 50 lux asph at 1.4 - as I understand, it and the 75 'cron are 'brother' lenses of roughly the same design - personally I'd have said that they are (technically speaking) the pinnacle of lens design, and perhaps some of the 'best' lenses ever made.

Of course there is an alternative to the Nocti if you want to dream at 50mm, and that's the Zeiss f1.5 softar (sonnar). Rather like the 75 'lux, it's gentle wide open and then gradually sharpens up as you reduce the aperture (so that, at f5.6 it's almost as sharp as the splendid 50 'lux). Unlike the nocti it's very small (smaller than the 50 'cron).

I love these lenses that have more than one life.

Trouble with these discussions, is that if you aren't careful, they can turn your carefully selected 4 lenses into a bankruptcy inducing bag full!.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 04:07
Closes the gap more and at 2.8 the Lux acts more normal . The Cron and summarit still look like they have more pop to them but still it is very slight. Now i chose that ugly background on purpose too , I want to see how the bokeh handles the junk back there . We run into this a lot. I like to test for worst case than make it a pretty test. Really serves us better in the long run.
__________________


If your not seeing the saturation look at the Red patch and also look at the red flower to the left in the background. i have to say after using Canon and Nikon for years that NO one handles Red better than Leica. Canon's from my days with it was so bad, more orange red. Leica nails it the best i ever seen , now maybe that has changed in recent years for Canon and Nikon but Real Red is hard to come by. Leica does it the best. Actually the color chart is very accurate looking with regards to color.
__________________

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 04:22
I brought Carstens comment over here from the LUF so you folks can read it. I know he won't mind

Originally Posted by carstenw
Guy, it looks like your camera might be front-focusing a bit? The shirt seems sharper than the nose and the Xs.

If you nail it with the 75 Lux and miss with the 90 Cron, then one or the other is out. The 75 Lux has less depth of field wide open, and don't forget you are using the same rangefinder to focus both.

Me:
Yea I think one of them front focused on me. Reason i have to redo the sharpness test. i know the Cron is better than what we are seeing and the Lux could be better . i will do that this morning that test. Also Sean does a better job in the sharpness test too because his is done in studio with much more control. I do encourage people to look at his testing too , what turned out to be a nice thing for the end user is you have 2 of us testing the Summarits so this gives everybody a really good look at them. So in the end look at what we both are doing and make a call. Myself i am bouncing around between the Lux and the Cron. I have the 90mm Summarit and being so close to the 75mm I should have something different in the 75 mm focal length but if i did not than the Summarit is a great choice for the money. The only lag on it is the Bokeh compared to the Cron and Lux but we don't have three 75mm lenses when we go shoot , so if you if you don't compare them side by side inthe real world you would never know the difference. Let's face it too the bokeh is very close at 2.5.
__________________

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 04:54
Hi Guy
Nothing dreamy about the 50 lux asph at 1.4 - as I understand, it and the 75 'cron are 'brother' lenses of roughly the same design - personally I'd have said that they are (technically speaking) the pinnacle of lens design, and perhaps some of the 'best' lenses ever made.

Of course there is an alternative to the Nocti if you want to dream at 50mm, and that's the Zeiss f1.5 softar (sonnar). Rather like the 75 'lux, it's gentle wide open and then gradually sharpens up as you reduce the aperture (so that, at f5.6 it's almost as sharp as the splendid 50 'lux). Unlike the nocti it's very small (smaller than the 50 'cron).

I love these lenses that have more than one life.

Trouble with these discussions, is that if you aren't careful, they can turn your carefully selected 4 lenses into a bankruptcy inducing bag full!.


Not a bad thought Jono is that zeiss 1.5 i have seen some images from it and really like it . Could you start a thread on it and post a few images. Maybe trade my Lux for the Cron. The Cron i think may fit me better. I rarely shoot at 1.4. I'm the worst i have gone back and forth on this 3 times in the same damn thread. You wonder why i buy all these lenses, I'm a nut case

LJL
13th December 2007, 05:15
Guy,
I think you have come back around to the point again....there is no really bad choice among the three, and one needs to think about how each might fit into their kit based on overall needs and what results one seeks. If somebody likes shooting more stopped down, then it may not matter. If you need lower light capabilities, it is almost, not quite, but almost academic between f1.4 and f2.5, given how much one can play with the nice M8 files. From there, it comes down to size, price and bokeh, I think. There really is no way to get the Cron to have the same look as the Lux wide open, or even at f2. The Cron has its own smoothness that is different from the Lux and the Summarit, from what I have seen and am seeing in your shots. I do not think any of them are disappointing in the least....each delivers wonderfully. If I did not have the Nocti for the glow and softness for shooting wide, I might prefer the 75 Lux to get that effect to some smaller degree, should that be important for the shooter.

At times, it seems that we (as a collection of shooters) shift our interests, and these sorts of tests become just that....tests of our interests and decisions, both past and future. It is just so nice to have the options. One day, we really like the more biting sharpness of one lens. Another day, we are pulled by the siren of bokeh. Another day we may be struggling to pull out shadow details. In the end, it is up to us to decide which fits our needs best, or for the most use. Personally, I love the look of the Nocti and your 75 Lux wide open, but it is not for everything I shoot, for sure. Some clients want edgier portraits or look for sharpness, or have other expectations. I see nothing wrong with being able to deliver to whatever needs be done....serve your personal art and style, have tack sharp shots to the edges, etc.

To me, it is looking like the Summarits are creating a very nice complement to the Leica glass collection. If somebody only wanted a couple of lenses and did not want to spend a ton on glass, they could get by with a 35 and 75, or 50 and 90, plus still have room for the great 28/2.8 on the wider side. Incredible flexibility on a budget....so to speak. On the other end, if somebody really had a passion for one look, and needed glass to fit that style of shooting, it is also there. That really cannot be said of most (any?) DSLR line. I think having these sorts of options and choices is fantastic. Let's face it, most of the final image capture/delivery is still up to us, and "details" like micro-contrast, saturation, bokeh, etc., while extremely important for artistic renderings, fall by the side when we are struggling to just capture the shot at times. Having lenses across a broad range like this does allow us to "feed our needs".

Sorry for the ramble....coffee has not fully kicked in yet ;-)

LJ

jonoslack
13th December 2007, 05:17
Not a bad thought Jono is that zeiss 1.5 i have seen some images from it and really like it . Could you start a thread on it and post a few images. Maybe trade my Lux for the Cron. The Cron i think may fit me better. I rarely shoot at 1.4. I'm the worst i have gone back and forth on this 3 times in the same damn thread. You wonder why i buy all these lenses, I'm a nut case

Hi Guy
I'm in Holland at the moment, and don't have it with me, but I'll be back over the weekend and see if I can knock some shots together and start a thread.

I didn't mean to get it (I know that sounds crazy!) but it was part of a deal I did with Vieri - now I'm really pleased to have it.

I don't wonder why you buy all these lenses I KNOW WHY! It's the same reason as I buy all these lenses!

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 05:25
I just looked on e-bay and there is a CRON too. waiting for Jack to wake up and talk me out of this one. i am really a sick person:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Remember that song by Neil Young the needle and the damage done. hello were is the syringe, I need a leica fix:ROTFL:

jonoslack
13th December 2007, 05:28
Remember that song by Neil Young the needle and the damage done. hello were is the syringe, I need a leica fix:ROTFL:

But there'll only be tracks in your bank balance Guy.
Just buy it . . . . just buy it . . . . . just buy it . . .

you know you're going to, so why not get over it, and then you can really concentrate on whether you want one of those nice Ziess softars
:p:p

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 05:45
Damn Jono your worse than me. LOL

Are they the new Sonnars

jonoslack
13th December 2007, 06:00
Damn Jono your worse than me. LOL

Are they the new Sonnars

LOL - no, I'm trying to ensure that you stay worse than me!

here is the nice 50mm (really is small too)

50 sonnar at robert white (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=916&PT_ID=288)

I think there are only two of them, he other being an 85mm f2:

85 sonnar at robert white (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=917&PT_ID=288)

Perhaps you should have one of these to add to your summarit 90mm test? It seems only sensible that you should.
:)

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 06:12
Yes Tony at Popflash has them for 980 dollars. Well i am going to test some more today and see what comes in my head. I need to send the Summarit and cron back tomorrow than going up North this weekend to a little town called St John's for the day and i may hit the slopes and shoot snowboarders, my daughter and friends. That could be fun with a M8.

need to get out and shoot , too quiet this time of year

Stuart Richardson
13th December 2007, 06:32
I did a ton of rationalizing when I bought the summicron. I figured that 75mm was my favorite focal length in the M series after 35mm, and I left the 75 lux behind sometimes. I thought I would bring the summicron with me more often because it was smaller and lighter. But looking back on it, the one I leave behind is the summicron, not the summilux. I used the summicron a lot when I first bought it, but it is not THAT much smaller than the summilux, and it is still a fairly big and heavy lens for the M system. For some reason mine does not focus as well on my M8 as the summilux does, so that was the final straw for me. Now it just sits at home and I bring the summilux everywhere. Everything else aside, that is the true measure of a lens...the best one is the one you always are reaching for. For me those are the 35mm summilux ASPH, the 75 lux, the 110 planar and the 28-90mm f/2.8-4.5.
So Guy, if you are really interested in the summicron, let me know. I will probably sell mine when I get back to the US (Sunday). It is coded and in great shape with 49mm IR filter.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 06:37
Thanks Stuart still banging my head around on this one. See i need to stop getting loaners from Leica to test. Every time i do this , i buy something. Must be in there evil plan. LOL

LJL
13th December 2007, 06:58
Guy,
It is your kit and your bank account, so all of our comments come second. Stuart makes a good point about the sizes of the Lux versus the Cron....not all that different. Your Lux will give you something neither the Cron nor the Summarit can wide open, yet still deliver what you need more stopped down. Lot to be said for that.

As I had commented separately, if I did not have the Nocti, I would prefer having the 75 Lux for that length, but since I have the Nocti, the 75 Cron fills that part of the bag for my needs. But that is me and how I shoot....not the same for you most likely.

If you have some time left today, just go shoot both for the fun, and not just the testing. That may help you sort out the focus, speed, look thing in a different way. I think you have already proven to yourself that all three are very capable and deliver excellent images. How they work for you in your more normal shooting should be the other key element. If the focus throw and such of the Cron is not comfortable for you, it will not be a good choice.

Sorry, Stuart, not trying to kill a possible Cron sale to Guy, as you know. I agree with your comments, and think that whatever feels best and gets used most is what counts, and not to get hung up on testing things so much. All are excellent imagers.

So, Guy, please do stop banging your head for a bit.....it screws up your focus ;-) Go enjoy some casual shooting with the lenses while you have them for a bit. I love seeing those kinds of shots myself, as they represent how folks actually use the lenses, and not so much about which one has some edge little edge over the other. You have already demonstrated that in your tests. Go do a few "street" portraits or something, and see if the bokeh really is noticed, or if the Cron is harder to focus than the Lux, or if there really is THAT much of a difference in weight and feel while shooting.

Hoping you have some fun with these while you have them. You can always buy a Cron or Summarit after you think on it a bit more, but that Lux is going to be harder to find.

LJ

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 07:07
Yea i am going to run out here in a bit and go goof off

Stuart Richardson
13th December 2007, 07:11
No worries LJ. I agree with you. I am sure I will not have difficulty finding a buyer, but if Guy is planning on buying, I would rather sell to him because I trust him. But I am not trying to talk you into it Guy! The best thing to do is what LJ said...shoot them both and see what you prefer. I thought I needed two, and it turned out that I only used one...you will probably have the same reaction. Just choose the one that you prefer to use and whose results you prefer, because that is the greatest difference. The best one is the one that makes the best pictures for you.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 07:28
Curve ball 75 lux at 1.4 and a 50 lux asph at 1.4

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 07:32
Okay one more time 75 Lux at 1.4 and the Cron at F2

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 07:33
Guess who is much sharper wide open.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 07:33
This time i nailed both in sharpness

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 07:34
Anybody wanna buy a Lux :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Stuart Richardson
13th December 2007, 07:54
Will you tell us? I can't really tell from those size jpg's. The 50 lux seems to have the most contrast.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 08:00
The 50 has a little more than the 75mm lux. The damn Cron is sharp at f2 and is better than the 75 lux at f2

Jack
13th December 2007, 08:28
I'd suggest shooting them both in poor, indoor lighting and on the street at night too, just to get the feel for them in that situation.

KurtKamka
13th December 2007, 08:49
The 50lux certainly knows how to sing for its supper.

Just be comfortable in knowing that there are no wrong answers, Guy, in whichever you choose. It's a difficult decision because all of the options are excellent.

As LJ was saying earlier, the summarits are a game changer for Leica. Excellent $1500 Leica primes are a gift for anyone looking to build a starter M8 kit that is in no way a beginner kit.

Kurt

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 11:21
In case you are wondering about the size

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 11:49
Not sure everyone is going to like my results the Summarit just rips them all apart. Every test i have run even on different bodies the same result at 2.5 the Summarit wins the sharpness battle.

jlm
13th December 2007, 12:33
given the lengths Lecia went to to develop the apochromat, which is by design supposed to accurately focus wavelengths across the spectrum, one has to wonder what you are getting for the extra dough over the summarit, eh?
would you even detect chromatic mis-focus in your tests?
maybe the summarit starts to fall apart for full frame use?

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 12:37
Alright i actually ran this test twice on different subject checking focus every time and identical results and it follows the pattern we have been seeing the Lux comes to life at f4 . The Cron is nice at F2 but at 2.5 the edge goes to the summarit. Now there is no sharpening and reason we are seeing what we are..Here is the full image and the Yellow is the approximate crop, Than i will put the Lux 1.4 shot in this farme also

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 12:40
F2 Lux and Cron

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 12:42
2.5 Lux, Cron and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 12:44
2.8 Lux, Cron and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 12:46
F4 Lux, Cron and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 12:49
f56 Lux, Cron and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 12:51
Part 2 Different scene with the Lux 14

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 12:54
F2 Lux and Cron

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 12:56
F2.5 Lux and Cron and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 13:00
F2.8 Lux and Cron and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 13:02
Last one F4 Lux and Cron and Summarit

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 13:05
Whew that is enough for now, if you want corners than i will do those in the morning.

robsteve
13th December 2007, 13:07
Guy:

I don't know if the Summarit is sharper than the Summicron or if the Summarit just has more contrast on the coarser detail. Can we get a crop in on the roof tiles to see if either lens picks up the detail in the fine surface textures of the tiles?

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 13:16
75 cron at 2.5 and 75 summarit at 2.5

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 13:17
Summarit Robert has got it slightly

carstenw
13th December 2007, 13:20
The Cron still shows nicer bo-ke. I am surprised that the Cron isn't sharper, to be honest. If your fingers are not falling off yet, what about a crop of all three at f/2.5 of the bark of that little plant in the middle? There is a big difference going on in the bark.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 13:23
Your killing me Carsten. LOL

carstenw
13th December 2007, 13:27
Don't do it if you don't want to. I am super-curious though. The 75 was always the hardest choice for me. Maybe I'll end up with two or three.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 13:28
Lux , Cron and Summarit at 2.5 . Look at the Ca in the Summarit on the white concrete stop

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 13:30
Pretty freaking amazing

Stuart Richardson
13th December 2007, 13:31
I don't want to be troublesome, but I suspect that you missed focus with the summilux in this test (and this test only). It is not that blurry in normal use at 2.5...your other setups show it sharper than this at f/1.4.

carstenw
13th December 2007, 13:32
Worse than amazing. There is something wrong with that Lux. You are on a tripod, right? Even the Cron looks much too soft. Were you focus-bracketing?

robsteve
13th December 2007, 13:44
Pretty freaking amazing

I think the focus is off with the Summilux and the Summicron on that last set.

It may also mean that there is a focus shift on the Summilux and Summicron at the f2.5 aperture. The only way to tell for sure is to focus bracket.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 13:55
Maybe the last test but the rocks too are soft and i know i have a good 75 lux. The issue i think too is we normally put a little sharpening on and being naked it's soft but you maybe right on the last one but honestly at a distance which i was about 100 ft . thing is I can't find a different focus point either. If it missed where is it

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 13:58
The Cron is dead on. Honestly every series i did through this whole thread is the same pattern or really close to it .

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 14:07
It is certainly possible i have a focus shift on the Lux , we seen that before in the tests around F2 and 2.5

robsteve
13th December 2007, 14:09
The Cron is dead on. Honestly every series i did through this whole thread is the same pattern or really close to it .

The Cron is front focused. Look at the white curbs and work towards the camera. The pavement will probably get sharper as it gets closer to the camera. I can only see the curbs in your crop, so I am just guessing on this.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 14:14
It's to far a distance i focused right on the bark and the curb is soft

robsteve
13th December 2007, 14:17
It's to far a distance i focused right on the bark and the curb is soft

I meant the black pavement/road between you and the curb. It isn't in the crop, so as I said, I am just guessing.

If that is not is, there is a problem with the lens. I noticed on your first shots that the large rock on the right side of the frame was sharper than the center of the frame. I just figured it was focusing. If that is not it, the lens has a problem.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 14:19
It looks it a little but were talking ten ft. at least. test 1 maybe more accurate but I'm burnt out on this. i need to ship these back tomorrow maybe in the morning i can run a quick one again. I will go back to the other body too

robsteve
13th December 2007, 14:27
Guy:

This is what I meant. The sides are sharper than the middle of the lens. The only way to tell if it is the lens is to shoot a scene at infinity and see if the sides are still shaper than the middle to rule out a focus problem.

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/2/cron251.jpg

Stuart Richardson
13th December 2007, 14:27
Please don't misunderstand me, I am not asking you to redo it! I think you have provided more than enough samples. I just thought the last one was off, particularly compared to the other ones. I would say don't bother doing any more tests...the point is pretty clear. The summilux has 1.4, but the cron and summarit are sharper and smaller.

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 14:33
Thanks Stuart and it maybe this body i switched to today . I actually grabbed the wrong one. I still may do something in the morning the scarecrow stuff looking more accurate than what came out of this body today which i need to check it out.

Mark Gowin
13th December 2007, 15:34
Thanks for the hard work Guy. You have confirmed my findings that the 75mm Summarit is an excellent lens. You also confirmed my difficulty in finding a suitable sharpness test subject which has enough texture/detail and is flat enough to remain in the plane of focus.

Based on what I see here, I think the Cron has slightly more saturated colors than the Summarit.

workingcamera
13th December 2007, 16:22
I mentioned this earlier… but when you think that the 75 Summilux design is nearly thirty years old it does stack up relatively well against the flash new boys. You can see why it was so high regarded back in its heyday. Says something for the genius of Walter Mandler.:thumbup:

Depite the new offerings and todays ability to ramp up ISO, I still think there is room in the Leica line for a 75 Lux. It’s just such a great reportage lens.

roberth
13th December 2007, 16:30
I get to do a dance rehearsal shoot on Tuesday with the 75 cron, borrowed the lens. Looking forward to using it, feels very nice on the camera.

Sean_Reid
13th December 2007, 16:53
The other thing to is Seans test of these also and i would like to see what he came up with in regards to the 75 CV lens in his test

Hi Guy,

I'll get there someday. All the testing and illustrations are done, I just need time to prep and write. Buried...

Cheers,

Sean

Sean_Reid
13th December 2007, 17:00
LOL - no, I'm trying to ensure that you stay worse than me!

here is the nice 50mm (really is small too)

50 sonnar at robert white (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=916&PT_ID=288)

I think there are only two of them, he other being an 85mm f2:

85 sonnar at robert white (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=917&PT_ID=288)

Perhaps you should have one of these to add to your summarit 90mm test? It seems only sensible that you should.
:)

The Zeiss 85 was in my 90 mm Summarit test and the production version I tested was outstanding! Mostly we're just spoiled for choice in M lenses.

Cheers,

Sean

Terry
13th December 2007, 19:02
this is such a frustrating thrread. Great info but I am confined to my iPhone until Monday but all the pictures look the same on my screen!

Terry

Guy Mancuso
13th December 2007, 19:04
:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

jonoslack
14th December 2007, 00:01
The Zeiss 85 was in my 90 mm Summarit test and the production version I tested was outstanding! Mostly we're just spoiled for choice in M lenses.

Cheers,

Sean

Nearly as outstanding as the test :)
I quite agree, we're spoilt for choice, and perhaps the only sensible answer is Guy's:
BUY THE LOT!
Mind you, if popflash are selling the ZM 85 for $900, I'd say buy a dozen and put them on ebay.

jonoslack
14th December 2007, 00:06
this is such a frustrating thrread. Great info but I am confined to my iPhone until Monday but all the pictures look the same on my screen!

Terry
Angels dancing on the heads of pins!

Hi Terry - I read a lot of it on my iphone too (surprisingly good colour though isn't it).

I'm really grateful to Guy, who's done a splendid job, it's a suitable companion to Sean's excellent work.

Still, it seems to me that if you want fast you buy the lux, if you want sharp, then you can buy either the 'cron or the summarit, if you want close focus or good bokeh, then you buy the 'cron, if you want small size and you don't mind a little CA, then you get the summarit.

Whichever one you buy is going to do a fine job.

Unlike most of these tests, which leave me in a terrible 'have I got the right one' quandary, I'm still really pleased with my 'cron, which is one of my most used lenses - I wouldn't swap.

Terry
14th December 2007, 02:46
Thanks Jono,
the iPhone is an incredible tool and the screen has great color but still I have to laugh because it is impossible to see the nuances from a lens test.

In 75 I have the CV2.5 which I have been very happy with. I also own the 90 macro-elmar. I haven't used either enough to warrant another new lens (yet). I am looking forward to Sean's test which will include the CV.

Since getting the M8 I've been a kid in a candy store - oh a very expensive candy store!:rolleyes:

terry


Angels dancing on the heads of pins!

Hi Terry - I read a lot of it on my iphone too (surprisingly good colour though isn't it).

I'm really grateful to Guy, who's done a splendid job, it's a suitable companion to Sean's excellent work.

Still, it seems to me that if you want fast you buy the lux, if you want sharp, then you can buy either the 'cron or the summarit, if you want close focus or good bokeh, then you buy the 'cron, if you want small size and you don't mind a little CA, then you get the summarit.

Whichever one you buy is going to do a fine job.

Unlike most of these tests, which leave me in a terrible 'have I got the right one' quandary, I'm still really pleased with my 'cron, which is one of my most used lenses - I wouldn't swap.

Guy Mancuso
14th December 2007, 03:54
Angels dancing on the heads of pins!

Hi Terry - I read a lot of it on my iphone too (surprisingly good colour though isn't it).

I'm really grateful to Guy, who's done a splendid job, it's a suitable companion to Sean's excellent work.

Still, it seems to me that if you want fast you buy the lux, if you want sharp, then you can buy either the 'cron or the summarit, if you want close focus or good bokeh, then you buy the 'cron, if you want small size and you don't mind a little CA, then you get the summarit.

Whichever one you buy is going to do a fine job.

Unlike most of these tests, which leave me in a terrible 'have I got the right one' quandary, I'm still really pleased with my 'cron, which is one of my most used lenses - I wouldn't swap.

Jono you pretty much nailed it. The nice part is we have those choices , even though it does make it harder. But you don't get these choices with any system but the M line.

Sean_Reid
14th December 2007, 10:29
Thanks for the hard work Guy. You have confirmed my findings that the 75mm Summarit is an excellent lens. You also confirmed my difficulty in finding a suitable sharpness test subject which has enough texture/detail and is flat enough to remain in the plane of focus.

Based on what I see here, I think the Cron has slightly more saturated colors than the Summarit.

Come to VT, I've got one. <G>

Cheers,

Sean

Guy Mancuso
14th December 2007, 14:04
My testing is done I sent the lenses back today ,just ran out of time today. had a paying gig. Always a good thing

jonoslack
14th December 2007, 15:03
My testing is done I sent the lenses back today ,just ran out of time today. had a paying gig. Always a good thing

Well, Thank You Guy.
you did a grand job, much better than we deserve.
I'd like to think that we all drew the same conclusions . . . but I don't think so!

thanks again

Guy Mancuso
14th December 2007, 15:51
Thanks Jono . I'm still in debate. LOL

But money is the holding card right now.

Guy Mancuso
14th December 2007, 16:05
Okay I'm off to Flagstaff will check in don't burn the house down. Some shooting time for me to go have a little fun

jonoslack
15th December 2007, 02:04
Thanks Jono . I'm still in debate. LOL

But money is the holding card right now.

Isn't it always?
Anyway, have a great time. I shall be off to Cornwall next Friday for the Christmas holiday, which is something to look forward to

roberth
16th December 2007, 12:52
I have been trying out a 75mm cron over the weekend, a wonderful lens but I find the framelines terribly innacurate. It was not until I looked at the M8 manual that I knew which to follow, previewing photos taken directly after taking them gave me very little in the way of clues, close work compared to distant were very different. I guess I will become used to it and just compensate for distance as I get used to it (if I can afford the lens).

k-hawinkler
27th October 2014, 22:30
I just saw this old thread for the first time and read it in its entirety. Very interesting.
The results and conclusions presented here seem to have stood the test of time.
Clash of Titans - Leica User Forum (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-lenses/292236-clash-titans.html)
Terrific. Many thanks.

bradhusick
28th October 2014, 04:45
I think this test shows that at web resolutions and sRGB, all three lenses are excellent.

k-hawinkler
28th October 2014, 04:52
I think this test shows that at web resolutions and sRGB, all three lenses are excellent.


True - but also so different, going by the stated opinions of well known folks.
(I happen to own the cron but thinking of adding the lux.)

turtle
28th October 2014, 06:14
I was considering the 75 APO but bought the Summarit instead and glad I did. Its a stunningly sharp lens, has wonderful colour and contrast and bokeh is pretty decent in my use. It just lacks a fast aperture which I don't use with M lenses beyond 50mm anyway.

Some examples here: A7R with Leica 75mm Summarit-M (http://thephotofundamentalist.com/?p=469)

I'm sure the APO can be better at times and it is of course faster, but at double the price. I just could not justify that and was bowled over by the Summarit-M.