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Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 10:26
I went out to test my Mamiya 150mm this morning and thought I would bring my Alpa along for the ride. I shot these with my Schnieder 47mm XL lens at ISO 100 around F11 or so. P25 plus bak. Really starting to like this little setup

Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 10:28
BTW I am guessing at the focusing. I lost out on getting a ground glass by a few minutes at a great price which really bummed me out but it really is not that hard to guess at it.

David K
31st July 2008, 12:10
Guy, these are nice but don't seem to have the WOW factor of the shots you just posted from your 150 2.8. Obviously different camera and lenses for a different purpose. What's your impression????

Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 13:45
I think it is a very capable machine no doubt and given the size factor the smallest thing in MF a pretty good way to go. Issue is for me the 47mm is well covered with my 35mm and 55mm. I need a 24mm to make this a stronger device for me but if someone wants very small and a M8 on steroids it is tough to beat given the size and these great optics in the digitars. It's a great small camera but not really what I need per say. I will most likely sell it since it does not serve me with a full Phase/Mamiya system going on. But that is me , the Alpa is really a nice tool and I do like the small factor a lot. For someone hiking or traveling this is a great option. Just takes some mental work

PeterA
31st July 2008, 14:44
The pics demonstrate just how much DOF and just how sharp the digitar lenses are - what else do you expect from a set-up like this?

If you wanted 'POP' ala a fast 35mm or MF lens - you then go to swings and tilts on a view camera set-up - that will out 'pop' anything in 35/MF land. You see this fact in product and architectural shooting every day..

JPlomley
31st July 2008, 15:02
Yep, the new RVP-50 on a View Camera with Rodenstock and Schneider lenses sure has all the pop and sizzle you need, and those drum scans are quite spectacular :-)

etrigan63
31st July 2008, 15:05
I wrote about this exact camera setup in my blog (http://www.echenique.com/2008/03/world-most-expensive-point-shoots.html). Called it the "world's most expensive point-and-shoot". Wouldn't mind owning one though. :D

Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 15:39
You won't see me arguing. LOL

Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 15:39
Seriously when In NY with some GetDPI members they really liked it.

Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 15:44
Also I am using a Zeiss 25/28 viewfinder instead of the Alpa VF . Saved a lot of money from buying the Alpa finder at 1300. The lenses are what are expensive they normally start at 3500.00 . Sounds like leica M prices to me

Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 15:47
Here is what my setup looks like from a forum member that took a shot of it. I also have a Nikon hand strap on it so it really fits in my hand very well. Also using the finger grip which is hard to see since my paws are all over it

Terry
31st July 2008, 15:52
Hey that shot has a copyright!
My nickname for this camera is "Guy's Science Experiment"

I get a little chuckle out of the cords running in different directions....

Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 15:56
I thought you shot this. LOL Okay steak dinner on me.

Natasa Stojsic
31st July 2008, 15:58
Also I am using a Zeiss 25/28 viewfinder instead of the Alpa VF . Saved a lot of money from buying the Alpa finder at 1300. The lenses are what are expensive they normally start at 3500.00 . Sounds like leica M prices to me

Guy,

:thumbs:CONGRATULATIONS:thumbs:

Your images look like mine:) good but not full potential... I'm sure it will take some/short time, but it is worth every cent... Remeber, it's Leica... only up to 60MP if you wish...:) and that's hard to beat right:thumbup:

Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 15:58
Two more shots with it

Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 16:01
Thanks Natasa i have some more here from my first outing. I do need to get serious with this though. The potential is there alright

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1941&page=10

Natasa Stojsic
31st July 2008, 16:11
Guy, these are nice but don't seem to have the WOW factor of the shots you just posted from your 150 2.8. Obviously different camera and lenses for a different purpose. What's your impression????

Remember this is not AF nor 150mm range lens;) Regardless, WOW effect will be there.... give him few weeks:thumbup:

Oh yeah.... and if WOW is what you are after... fasten your seat belt if he buys few more lenses:thumbs:

My set was TC with P45+ and I thought when I checked the P45+ screen focus was perfect, than laughed because all images looked soft on Mac.... but obviously that was not ALPA TC or P45+, that was totally me... but I promise I'll get there, especially now when Guy has one too:thumbup:

cmb_
31st July 2008, 18:17
Natasa, Peter:
Do you ever use the TC on a tripod? I know it is the perfect compact hand-held MF rig but I was wondering about other uses.

Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 18:24
Charlie one thing I want to try is doing a two or three shot stitch with it on a focusing rail setup from RRS. Seriously this maybe the ultimate in landscape work, small and easy to hike with and you can put any size back on it with the correct back mount. This just extends my MF back. I want to keep this if I can, i see this as the great travel camera and landscape machine. Just think if I had this in Moab. That is what I keep thinking about.

cmb_
31st July 2008, 18:50
Exactly Guy, that is what I was thinking. It could be very versatile for a compact system. Thanks for posting the images also.

Here are a couple of images of Guy's rig from when he was in NY.
First one, Guy's perfect guessing technique:

6696


Here you can get an idea of how compact it is in his hand:

6697

Guy Mancuso
31st July 2008, 18:55
The red button is my pre release cable or wake up cable . i hit that with my left hand than shoot with the right

I also found the perfect bag for it but Terry would not let me buy it. LOL

Billingham Combo bag for the Leica

etrigan63
31st July 2008, 19:55
What someone needs to develop is a shoe mounted laser rangefinder for this thing similar to what the Sony F707 had. This, of course, would not be used for portraits as you may blind the subject.

PeterA
31st July 2008, 21:15
CMB - I use a 12SW these days as I like the retro deluxo handles in rosewood. I sold my TC - (which is a beautiful thing) - when I got the news of the Alpa Max. To answer your question, I do use the Alpa on tripod for landscape work - and that is where the Alpa max is going to come in - a beautiful inbuilt stitching machine a lot smaller than the monstrous XY version. The 12 series cameras are easilly handholdable at insanely low shutter speeds for ok results.

If you have a MFD back - there is NO EXCUSE for not having an Alpa with a Schneider 24 0r 35 or Rodenstock 28 or 35. :)

I have to BITE MY TONGUE :wtf:about continual references for the need of laser finders etc etc in order to get proper focus - you DONT NEED THIS and even if you got it - HOW WOULD YOU TRANSLATE READINGS TO THE FOCUS SCALE ON LENS?:ROTFL:

The 24 or 35 focus from about 1.5 feet at closes to infinity at F11 - which is the aperture you should shoot at to get max sharpness btw. You have clear scale markings for relatively close distances and then the scale goes exponential for further distances.

etrigan63
31st July 2008, 21:35
Peter,
I have never even seen an Alpa TC or an MFD back, much less used one. I have no idea how the lens is marked but from my Leica M8 experience, scale focusing is a guessing game and if you want to shoot wide open (for whatever reason) you had better be a good judge of distance. I know I'm not.

evgeny
1st August 2008, 00:02
Wow, that camera is so small !

Ben Rubinstein
1st August 2008, 02:51
Evgeny, you live in Jerusalem don't you, fancy sharing one? :D:D

fotografz
1st August 2008, 02:58
Guy, these appear to just need a bit of post to snap them up. The DOF is amazing ... and is a WOW factor in its own right.

Would you mind taking that first shot posted and playing with it in levels if you have a moment?

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 03:49
You got it Marc , I added some magic here. First one i straightened the lines, added sharpening and local contrast plus than went in and selected the shadows and opened more . Second one coming out of C1 with no after effects

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 03:53
The one thing Alpa does give you is shims for your back. So in theory you can fine tune your back to the lens and at a given distance say 10 ft you can calibrate exactly to that lens setting. I have yet to do this and something I should do.

fotografz
1st August 2008, 03:54
I meant the desert dry gully one Guy ... that one will sing I think.

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 04:02
Here I did the same as the first one but this time went for even more sharpening effect. The beauty I am finding in MF is you can push these files to no end. They just have so much elbow room

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 04:03
BTW I know I shot this one at F11 which I think maybe the limit before diffraction sets in.

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 04:33
I redid this one to be more final also

PeterA
1st August 2008, 04:33
Peter,
I have never even seen an Alpa TC or an MFD back, much less used one. I have no idea how the lens is marked but from my Leica M8 experience, scale focusing is a guessing game and if you want to shoot wide open (for whatever reason) you had better be a good judge of distance. I know I'm not.

really dont know what to say...except unlike Leica there is no connection between a viewfinder and focusing there is no rangefinder to focus with..all you have is a guessing game ( your words) by definition.it is a guess.thats where the DOF of these lenses kicks in.
You buy a wide angle lens like this to shoot wide not narrow DOF shots - ie think total opposite of a fast M lens.:)

PeterA
1st August 2008, 04:34
btw Guy - I am ordering one...

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 04:37
LOL I know this little thing is sweet Peter ,it really is a SMALL package and hard to resist. Can't fault you for a second.

Marc working on it. LOL

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 04:48
This is better

PeterA
1st August 2008, 05:09
Guy - not the TC - the back -:) :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 05:23
Oh yes the P25 Plus i love so far.

Ben Rubinstein
1st August 2008, 05:54
Guy, pardon me for my true ignorance, but although I can perhaps see how the price of the camera is justified, why are the lenses so expensive, can a helical mount really over double the price of the lens?

yaya
1st August 2008, 06:55
April 2007, Olhão, Algarve, S. Portugal

TC with Super Angulon 38mm and Aptus 65:

http://www.imagehut.eu/images/42287A28_000199_1.jpg

http://www.imagehut.eu/images/47236A28_000199.jpg

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 09:30
Guy, pardon me for my true ignorance, but although I can perhaps see how the price of the camera is justified, why are the lenses so expensive, can a helical mount really over double the price of the lens?

Ben great question actually and it does come down to quality build like in the case with Leica. Hand made to very stringent tolerances and such. Unlike building lenses for like Canon say these designs without all the hoopla can be built to such high standards and simpler designs to do that. Plus these are smaller companies that are limited to not having big production lines and such so labor is more and all that. Plus they are some of the best lenses made and we will pay for that alone.

Natasa Stojsic
1st August 2008, 10:35
Charlie one thing I want to try is doing a two or three shot stitch with it on a focusing rail setup from RRS. Seriously this maybe the ultimate in landscape work, small and easy to hike with and you can put any size back on it with the correct back mount. This just extends my MF back. I want to keep this if I can, i see this as the great travel camera and landscape machine. Just think if I had this in Moab. That is what I keep thinking about.

You are reading my mind....

As far as I am concerned, there is no substitute for this little camera that can fit in the palm of your hand with LF Lenses!!! Practically, this combo will out resolve 4x5 Film easy, plus if you want to go bigger.... you can, it's in the family and if not.... we have options like you said "Focusing rail setup from RRS":thumbup:

I love the Zeiss 25/28 viewfinder idea;) it will save me enough money to add for another lens:thumbup:


Guy, just imagine when Digital Back becomes half as thick as they are now.... Alpa TC will look even better!!!

I truly thought LEAF will make one that is half as thick and with existing size 6x7 screen... only better quality!!!

Q: Do you have the one shot cable grip from Alpa... or is that the standard one?

Natasa Stojsic
1st August 2008, 10:39
April 2007, Olhão, Algarve, S. Portugal

TC with Super Angulon 38mm and Aptus 65:

http://www.imagehut.eu/images/42287A28_000199_1.jpg

http://www.imagehut.eu/images/47236A28_000199.jpg


Nice images Yair, I appreciate your contribution:thumbup:

I heard from a friend that you don't need cables with ALPA if you use Leaf DB!

How can that be... can you explain and post some images?

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 10:45
Natasa the Leaf system does not use the power up feature like the Phase system. I believe you turn it on and it stays on and uses fans to keep cool. Yair correct me if I am wrong. The Phase system uses a power down wake up system, so when the back is off the Mamiya mount it needs to wake up first reason for the wake up cable. This keeps the back cool without the use of fans.

I am using the Phase wakeup cable. http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/custom-products/

Natasa Stojsic
1st August 2008, 10:52
Natasa the Leaf system does not use the power up feature like the Phase system. I believe you turn it on and it stays on and uses fans to keep cool. Yair correct me if I am wrong. The Phase system uses a power down wake up system, so when the back is off the Mamiya mount it needs to wake up first reason for the wake up cable. This keeps the back cool without the use of fans.

I am using the Phase wakeup cable. http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/custom-products/

I see... thanks!!! What keeps the Phase back cool when we use it with Mamiya though?

I thought we could buy the grip with one shot cable and that's it... it should be that easy!!!

I will have to look into that!!!

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 10:56
The one shot cable built into the grip for the Alpa is really expensive like 900 dollars or more. OUCH

I will let Lance or Doug explain what Phase does with there backs for cooling.

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 10:58
Here it is

Natasa Stojsic
1st August 2008, 11:08
As I said before... My only complain with ALPA is PRICE! PRICE! PRICE!
although others are catching up.... Digital Backs are going through the roof/etc.:thumbdown:

Well, if big number of us ignores the first/second shipment from PHASE/HASSELBLAD/LEAF/SINAR they will surely get a wake up call!!!

Natasa Stojsic
1st August 2008, 11:21
Here it is

I thought I've seen one where cables are tailored and not exposed much, and yes that's the one!!!

However, for now if I have to put up with extra cables I will...

Wait... just thinking about it, Kapture Gruop makes one for $400+ without
the grip... so, I don't know at this point but I may go for the $900

We'll see because it always cost me more when I go and buy something cheaper than it turns out to be more expensive and it cost me more!!!

I'm tired of eBay:p

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 11:36
Natasa you won't need the Kapture group one just get the one from Capture integration for 90 dollars. Save a bundle that way, yes sometimes i am just cheap. LOL

Stuart Richardson
1st August 2008, 12:01
As far as I understand, the Sinar backs also stay on, so you don't need an additional cable.

As for the photos not having "pop", I think there are two factors at play. 1. Since there is so much depth of field, you don't have the sharp/unsharp transition that generally gives a 3D impression. Since everything is sharp, they have more of a point and shoot look. I don't mean that in a disparaging way.
2. You are looking at tiny images for the web. These are files with a native size of 16x20 inches or larger, and when they are comparably microscopic on our screens (which also can't display particularly fine detail. It is hard to communicate the true sharpness and tonality of medium format images on the web -- in a way, the web is the great equalizer), they just don't usually look all that impressive.

yaya
1st August 2008, 12:09
Natasa the Leaf system does not use the power up feature like the Phase system. I believe you turn it on and it stays on and uses fans to keep cool. Yair correct me if I am wrong. The Phase system uses a power down wake up system, so when the back is off the Mamiya mount it needs to wake up first reason for the wake up cable. This keeps the back cool without the use of fans.

I am using the Phase wakeup cable. http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/custom-products/

The Dalsa sensor is designed so it can be instantly reset after the data was taken off of it.
The Kodak takes longer to "get rid" of the data and then it needs to be reset before taking the next shot.
WE DO NOT KEEP THE SENSOR ON, it is just that it is very quick to get ready, hence why we only need one sync cable from lens to back.
The fans are there for cooling the electronics (RAM, CF read/ write and so on) and mostly to maintain an optimal working temperature when Live Video is in use - this is the reason why you walk into some still life studios and you see Aptus backs that are being left in LV mode all day as it doesn't affect the quality of the images taken after LV.

Other backs would normally switch LV off automatically after a certain period of time to avoid over heating (and if not, then you'll be advised to let the back cool off a bit before shooting again)

Hope this is clear enough?

Yair

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 12:48
Thanks Yair , yes it does get a little confusing on how the different backs operate. Thanks for clearing it up some.

sc_john
1st August 2008, 16:20
Guy,

Interesting viewfinder solution! It appears that you are also using the Alpa accessory adapter with spirit level to attach the Zeiss 25/28 viewfinder. Can you see the bubble level through the viewfinder?

John

Guy Mancuso
1st August 2008, 16:33
Yes I can and it works fairly good

Ben Rubinstein
2nd August 2008, 11:33
Guy, they are schneider lenses, what are they doing different to them?

BTW I really love your website, so simple, so uncomplicated, can tell at a glance what you do without all the waffle!

Guy Mancuso
3rd August 2008, 07:15
Couple shots from Sedona

David K
3rd August 2008, 07:30
No lack of DOF with these that's for sure. Looks like a superb handheld landscape kit.

Ben Rubinstein
4th August 2008, 00:00
As a matter of interest, how are you metering with this setup or going by the amount of sunlight in them, is it sunny f16?

Woody Campbell
4th August 2008, 02:37
Guy - Could we see some crops?

Regards

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 04:50
As a matter of interest, how are you metering with this setup or going by the amount of sunlight in them, is it sunny f16?

Sunny 16. Histo helps also

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 04:51
Guy - Could we see some crops?

Regards

Sure just waiting for my main MacPro to come home today, Than I can do it a little better.

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 05:19
Let's try one for now.

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 05:22
But the foreground rocks are soft. I need to test and see if i need a shim. Been to busy to test that and this week is not a good one for testing. have another 4 day shoot starting wednesday. I am sure i shot this at F11. The foreground rocks are about 12 ft away

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 05:29
See the infinity is sharp as a tack but foreground is not carrying. Now this is probably my fault in focusing

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 05:38
Not to confuse the subject but this is with the Phase body and new 80mm D lens. This is maybe the most telling reason to go MF . Look at the 100 percent crop. It is so sharp with detail it is scary. Shot at 5.6

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 05:41
The other side , my wife is going to kill me for posting this. LOL

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 05:46
If you notice the critical focus plane is pretty much on her and Dylan the tall kid. My son Jack is a little out of the critical focus. F8 may have been a better choice. 5.6 on MF acts more like 2.8 on 35mm. This is the one downside to MF is carry enough DOF when you need it , you simply have to stop down more.

Ben Rubinstein
4th August 2008, 05:49
Your son Jack is the splitting image of his mother. That's the kind of detail I usually get from my 5D.....if the people had completely filled the frame!

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 05:56
Exactly Ben, now it is a lot clearer what MF can really do. This stuff is amazing and scary at the same time. No doubt the 5D is a really capable machine but it won't hold water when you get into this MF stuff nor will any 35mm system.

Yes both my kids are there mother. Obviously i have the weak genes here.LOL

David K
4th August 2008, 06:14
you simply have to stop down more.

The new kids on the block with MF should repeat this as a mantra over and over again. Can't count the images I've shot at f/5.6 that would have been better if stopped down to f/11.

Ben Rubinstein
4th August 2008, 06:16
On the other hand Guy you're the splitting image of my old boss and I'm afraid that it isn't a compliment, he was a right bastard! However as you aren't a bitter old South African man I assume he doesn't do you justice and not the other way round. I know from your history that you're certainly not as tight fisted as he was! :ROTFL::ROTFL:

Thing is, I've been doing a lot of stitching with my 5D ending up with 39 megapixel images and although there is a lot more detail it really does show that 25 megapixels is very much not double 13 and although the 6 frame stitched image gives me a native 30X15" @ 250DPI, you would expect it to be far far more if you didn't know better. Although there is an increase in the resolution, the story is more in the DR, the depth and most importantly for me, the overall tonality.

Resolution wise every subject has a specific level of detail that is expected to be resolved by the eye. It's how it resolves that detail after that point that counts.

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 06:23
Damn than I am going in for a face lift. LOL

Yes i only touched on the detail but the DR and other factors are amazing as well.

The question also is do you need it . For you as a wedding shooter a Nikon /Canon maybe the better options no doubt but I know there are times that MF would be welcome. Done a few weddings myself and for wedding shooters it's a tough call. Not sure you can just go MF only. You can go 35mm only but MF is a tougher system to work in that field.

Ben Rubinstein
4th August 2008, 06:31
As I work with 2 cameras and one permenantly set to iso 1600 with fast lenses wide open...

I know Marc can make it work in a wedding enviroment but although I would love the detail of these backs for group/portrait work, I don't actually need it, I haven't found the slightest inclination that the clients could tell the difference and as such it wouldn't be a justifiable business decision. My price level at present is capped by my expertise as a wedding photographer and not by the resolution of my 20X16" wall print sales.

I do some personal work, my Jerusalem project detailed in another thread for example. Although I could kill for the detail, especially for when I need a one shot solution (can't stitch) but am shooting with a 6X12 crop for very big prints. Until I can make sure that these projects are going to convert themselves into profit - especially linked to print sizes above what my present 5D can manage - however incredibly sexy that Alpa looks, and it really does, I'm not making enough to spend that kind of money to spend on equipment if it isn't a solid investment oppotunity.

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 06:37
I agree, I do wish the P21 Plus had a screaming ISO 1600 than that for me would completely eliminate the 35mm. I still may get a D700, I have some of the same needs as the wedding shooter sometimes. So i am still debating the purchase of the Nikon D700. Sometimes you just need the speed. I cheated in 35mm and you cheat in MF too. Nothing is perfect and the need for 2 systems does not seem to go away.

Ben Rubinstein
4th August 2008, 06:39
It's only the price that makes us wish that it could!

BTW given the price of the Alpa for what is a pretty simple design, I'm surprised that companies such as Horseman* and Fotoman haven't jumped on the bandwagon offering similar but cheaper options. The price of 2nd hand backs is getting extremely cheap these days, certainly well within the 'hmmm' factor for any landscape photographer thinking of a 1Ds mkIII, make a cheaper solution and I think there is a market for it.

Even if Alpa are doing some magic to these lenses, the regular digital Rodenstocks and Schneiders are still world class leading and certainly similar in price to Canon L glass, methinks there is room in the market for those who don't need the expense/automation of the new MF bodies or even the bulk of the older ones.

*funniest URL in the photographic world - www.horsemanusa.com

jlm
4th August 2008, 07:16
guy, you are focusing by guessing distance and setting the numbers on the barrel, so the shim would be to see if the infinity setting on the barrel is right?

Ben Rubinstein
4th August 2008, 07:20
Actually Guy, I would be incredibly interested in a resolution shoot out between the P25 and a 1Ds mkIII, L versus digitar. Same megapixels technically. I even know a company that might be interested in making an Alpa 12 TC competitor.

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 07:22
I think that is correct . I need to talk to Doug and see if he can help me. Either that measure say 10 ft set lens at 10 ft and be wide open and see what I get. If it is on track than fine or shim to adjust. That is what I need to figure out my infinity setting looks very good right now but do I adjust to that or something else.

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 07:25
Actually Guy, I would be incredibly interested in a resolution shoot out between the P25 and a 1Ds mkIII, L versus digitar. Same megapixels technically. I even know a company that might be interested in making an Alpa 12 TC competitor.

Would be interesting but from the tests I saw of the 1dsMKIII compared to it's own 5D it was not that big a difference. Jack did that test and made me wonder if the 1dsMKIII was worth the upgrade. Jack can further comment on this and I think Doug from CI also ran some tests too.

Woody Campbell
4th August 2008, 08:55
Guy - thanks on the crops. My experience with a similar setup is that minor issues of focus and shutter speed show up all too clearly because of the sensor's incredible resolving power. These are better than my handheld guestimates - bravo.

Ben - this issue with the Canon, I believe, is its aggressive AA filter, which is pretty well documented. It won't come close to the mf backs that don't have an AA filter.

Regards,

Woody

Stuart Richardson
4th August 2008, 10:25
You also have to remember that you are using a 47mm lens...the depth of field is the same as it would be on 35mm and you don't generally expect a 50mm lens to have huge depth of field from foreground to infinity, even if you are stopped down to f/11 or so. There will be more apparent depth of field due to the much wider angle of view on the larger format, but at 100%, it is going to be just as thin as it would be on 35mm.

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 10:53
Thanks Stuart and that is part of the issue. In my head I am thinking wide and that is really not the case. I have to adjust my thinking. Now I want a 24mm. LOL

Seriously though it really is not a very wide angle and my expectations are off there

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 10:56
I will say though when it hits the critical focus it is amazing. So do these lenses justify themselves and there price tags. You bet , I need to just adjust my DOF scale in my head for the 47mm, otherwise I am doing okay with it. Getting good at the guessing

Ben Rubinstein
4th August 2008, 11:00
It's such a vicious circle. To get more resolution you need bigger sensors. As such to preserve perspective you need a longer lens which you then can't stop down as much because of diffraction. Not so much of a problem for people shooting which I expect is the majority of the uses of these backs but for landscape or architecture it must be a nightmare. :(

This was what eventually made me part with LF. To maintain perspective (v.important for me with architecture) I needed longer lenses, to maintain DOF I needed to stop down to f128 by which time I was losing a large portion of the resolution benefit aside from having to use shutter speeds that killed the photo if there was any foliage present, i.e. most of the time. I'm now shooting with a 5D and stitching. To maintain the perpective of a 50mm lens I'm having to use a 100mm due to the wide nature of the stitch. As such I'm shooting at f16 but that isn't that much of a problem for a FF 35mm sensor diffraction wise and I'm refocusing as I go along which works if you're very careful. I also have the ability to use much higher iso's to freeze movement. Best of both worlds if you don't need a one shot solution which most people do....

I know it sounds silly but it wouldn't be too expensive, if one were to make a rig from 4 DSLR's which were held on a frame so that each one slightly overlapped the field of view of the other and had a trigger to fire all at the same time then you could get all the extra resolution, higher iso and lack of diffraction limitation with the only disadvantage being the bulk and the limitation to subjects that do not preclude set up time.

Might be fun to play with when 5D's drop to $500 each on the 2nd hand market! :p:p:p

Guy Mancuso
4th August 2008, 11:09
My real question on this is how far can you REALLY stop down until you actually SEE issues. i keep hearing F11 but I bet you can do better with these lenses and maybe this 47mm is really okay at F22 and the shorter ones like the 24mm are F11. Now this is a topic i would like to see discussed and tested. What are the real numbers here.

jlm
4th August 2008, 11:15
not sure if this is what you meant, but when the foliage,(or anything else) moves between stitches, you have a problem, so that 4-banger would solve that one.

same problem with moving subjects using Helicon Focus and several focus brackets, but the "DOF" is amazing, and basically unlimited.

Ben Rubinstein
4th August 2008, 12:11
That's why I haven't resorted to Helicon yet, it's bad enough with HDR shooting but with stitching I have to either wait for the foliage to settle down for each shot or hope!

KeithL
4th August 2008, 12:55
I've been shooting landscape for far more years than I care to remember but could count on one hand the times conditions would have allowed for perfect HDR, let alone stitching.
_________
http://www.keithlaban.co.uk

Ben Rubinstein
4th August 2008, 15:01
The first shot on this thread: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2789 (didn't want to repost the image) was shot in windy conditions, it's a 7 shot stitch. I waited for the wind to die down, shot at a fast enough speed to freeze the branches (I needed iso 400 due to the polariser and even then it was a 1/25th) and then repositioned the camera and waited for the wind to die down again. Needs a lot of patience and forget HDR, you have seconds in between the gusts of wind. I'm doing another shoot tomorrow which should be far more tricky, lot more leaves and needs to be polarised to hold the sky, I'll add it to the thread when I've got it right!

Just had a nasty thought, the setting sun will be right behind me, hope I won't have long shadow problems!

Natasa Stojsic
4th August 2008, 19:18
Thanks Stuart and that is part of the issue. In my head I am thinking wide and that is really not the case. I have to adjust my thinking. Now I want a 24mm. LOL

Seriously though it really is not a very wide angle and my expectations are off there

As I said before... they should fasten their seat belt if you buy
few more lenses:thumbup:

I think personally Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/24 mm XL is better choice although Rodenstock Apo-Sironar digital HR 4.5/28 mm is good too....

Whatever you decide to buy I would appreciate if you would let me know
because let's say if you go for 24mm I will buy 28mm or vice versa... that way we can share more experience and the lenses if we need them for particular jobs:thumbs:

Natasa Stojsic
4th August 2008, 19:25
I even know a company that might be interested in making an Alpa 12 TC competitor.

Who may that be... very interesting, care to share?

Chuck Jones
4th August 2008, 19:27
My real question on this is how far can you REALLY stop down until you actually SEE issues. i keep hearing F11 but I bet you can do better with these lenses and maybe this 47mm is really okay at F22 and the shorter ones like the 24mm are F11. Now this is a topic i would like to see discussed and tested. What are the real numbers here.

Guy, to answer your question from my own personal testing on that same 47XL you are using, f11 is about the limit. At f16 and beyond, things go to mush pretty dang quickly. On the other hand, they are excellent wide open also, with the peak on the 47mm being at f5.6 in my own tests.

Ben Rubinstein
5th August 2008, 00:37
Natasa, I can't talk about it in public, I tried to PM you but your box is full, let me know how else to contact you.

jlm
5th August 2008, 02:57
Actually, Guy teased me with the prospect of making a trim body, no shifts or tilts, that would take the digital lenses and any back via adapter plates.
if the interest is there I will do it, so please lets start making a wish list of features.


jm

Ben Rubinstein
5th August 2008, 04:16
You make cameras jm? Seems to me that using another companies helical mounts might make the job much easier, the fotoman ones are said to be very good and are a fraction of the price of the Alpa's, they also have a very nice rangefinder that works with it.

jlm
5th August 2008, 04:27
my experience is with the Horseman, who mount a lens/shutter and helical barrel on their own plate.
I would make the body, per se, so you could use someone else's lens/shutter/focusing barrel/plate. i'll look into the fotoman product.

jlm
5th August 2008, 04:39
i just checked out fotoman. it looks like he has already filled the bill and the prices are completely reasonable. it may be his is not optimized for a digital back, but the 6x9 looks like the right item

Ben Rubinstein
5th August 2008, 04:52
As far as I can see Fotoman has no digital integration at all. No plates for MFDB's, maybe that's all that's missing? I have no idea if the cameras themselves need to be made to tighter tolerances due to the need for the back to be perfectly flush more than film needed? Please educate me! :)

The 69 and 69S do look good though, if anyone is having a look, click on 'more pictures' for a better view.

Stuart Richardson
5th August 2008, 05:06
The fotoman stuff looks good, and I have heard that it is quality material. The only concern I have just looking at it is that the Dmax is not for sale yet, and none of the cameras seem to support anything wider than 35mm. Is that really a big enough jump to justify going to a separate camera? Especially if you don't have an overriding need for shifts. Personally, my widest lens is a 40mm (which is also the current widest for the Hy6), so I don't think I would be interested in a technical camera unless it could mount a 24mm or 28mm...especially since the other digital systems both have 28mm lenses that mount on the SLR's...

Guy Mancuso
5th August 2008, 05:07
The Dmax takes a Mamiya 645 mount

http://www.fotomancamera.com/product_list.asp?id=344. Not sure it will work but has promise

Guy Mancuso
5th August 2008, 05:11
Yes 35mm lens seems to be the limit.

Stuart Richardson
5th August 2008, 05:19
I just wrote him to ask about it, so we'll see if that is just the info he had for film...

Guy Mancuso
5th August 2008, 05:22
Thanks Stuart . I just e-mailed them about that auxiliary rangefinder for focusing. I can bolt that on the side of the Alpa.

Ben Rubinstein
5th August 2008, 05:26
The Dmax looks like a full technical camera though and it is priced to match, it's certainly not a Alpa TC competitor.

Guy Mancuso
5th August 2008, 05:39
Actually The Alpa TC is cheaper for the frame

Ben Rubinstein
5th August 2008, 05:57
It's a different camera, far more like a Cambo, the Fotoman 69 seems to be the equivelent of the TC but is missing a plate to fit a MFDB. Now if someone is feeling handy... :D

jlm
5th August 2008, 06:02
the problem with the wider angles is that the shorter distance from the lensboard to the sensor may mean that the barrel, etc. become buried in the body and harder to access for focus

Ben Rubinstein
5th August 2008, 06:16
How does the Alpa do it?

Guy Mancuso
5th August 2008, 06:34
Ben on my 47mm the lens board comes out about a half inch, so for the wider lenses it is either flush or recessed for the very wides. Take a look at the Alpa site and you can see how the lens mount board changes with focal length.

Here check this page out and you can see some of those mount changes

http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products/lenses/adapted_alpa_lenses

Guy Mancuso
5th August 2008, 07:40
Just ordered that Fotoman Rangefinder for focusing. Hook it up to the side of my Alpa or just use in my hand

Ben Rubinstein
5th August 2008, 08:55
It's also user configurable which should be fun!

I'm sure Fotoman could make a recessed board to order, might be worth asking them for the 69 and get someone to configure an MFDB mount. 28mm is very wide on those backs anyway isn't it? Would the lack of a 28mm put off a lot of people?

yaya
5th August 2008, 12:22
re Fotoman it looks like it's got a universal "mini Graflok" film holder mount and it take Linhof film holders, right?

Well, Linhof make a universal adapters for their 69 cameras, look at page 17 in this catalogue (linhofstudio.com/downloads/LinhofStudio_2007.pdf), so unless Fotoman modify the film holder to a custom mount, there should be a way to mount a DB on it, physically....

Stuart Richardson
5th August 2008, 12:40
Ben -- yes, 28 is very wide, but I think for a number of people, the only reason they use these cameras is because they provide very wide angle lenses that the manufacturer doesn't offer. Some of them provide shift and tilt, but not cameras like the Alpa TC. For example, the Hy6's current widest lens is 40mm, with a 35mm coming out at some point after photokina. Mamiya and Hasselblad H have 28mm's, but the 28mm H only works on the H3D. Hasselblad V taps out at 38mm (40 for the SLR's), and Contax had a 35mm. So if you are using Rollei, Hasselblad V or Contax, your only choice for super wides is to get a technical camera like one of these. The Hasselblad V and Rollei systems did not really design lenses wider than 38-40mm because they were built around 6x6 full frame film -- 40mm is still very wide on 6x6. When you start talking about 48x36, then it starts looking more like a moderate wide angle. The 645 makers had an advantage, in that they had already has wider lenses since they had been designing for approximately 645 sized film all along.

The other buying segment would be architecture photographers, and they are more concerned with rise and fall, and sometimes tilts, shifts and swings. These people are less concerned with the super super wide angles, but more with being able to move the front standard around and still use a digital back. So for those people, the fotoman or the other bigger offerings like the larger Alpas, Horseman SWD, Cambo, Arca Swiss and Sinar cameras are more persuasive.

Natasa Stojsic
13th August 2008, 23:13
Just ordered that Fotoman Rangefinder for focusing. Hook it up to the side of my Alpa or just use in my hand


Guy, I just ordered 24 mm Apo-Digitar just to get it out of my system:ROTFL: I don't tink I made a mistake... it's a great lens, so we'll see!!!

Now I just have to see how to keep P30+ and P45+/A75s IF I CAN.... only what bothers me with Aptus/Sinar is that there is no Long Exposure!!!


Did you get your Fotoman Rangefinder for focusing? If you did, could you post some images and your opinion pls.... I think you should write full review for GetDPI forum perhaps for LL too on Alpa TC + Fotoman Rangefinder/etc. because I read everything about Alpa available on net and I think you are the first one to put it together and people will enjoy it:thumbup:

PeterA
14th August 2008, 00:04
Yair - thanks for the link to the catalogue.

Guy Mancuso
14th August 2008, 05:38
Natasa i did get the rangefinder and it is really nice.I think just holding it is the way to go. I'm in San Diego on vacation with the family and when I get home next week i will do exactly that a nice photo review of my setup. Okay you can be jealous . I am on my balcony overlooking the ocean and beach as I type this. Maybe in my next life I could actually have this kind of life all year . For now I will take a nice 5 days. LOL

Surfs Up

Natasa Stojsic
14th August 2008, 15:10
Natasa i did get the rangefinder and it is really nice.I think just holding it is the way to go. I'm in San Diego on vacation with the family and when I get home next week i will do exactly that a nice photo review of my setup. Okay you can be jealous . I am on my balcony overlooking the ocean and beach as I type this. Maybe in my next life I could actually have this kind of life all year . For now I will take a nice 5 days. LOL

Surfs Up

Thanks Guy:thumbup:

Jealous... maybe a little:D but since I got back from italy (Porto Cervo;)) I think you agree we are even... hehehehe:thumbup:

Have fun:thumbs:

Natasa Stojsic
23rd August 2008, 04:16
Natasa i did get the rangefinder and it is really nice.I think just holding it is the way to go.

Surfs Up

Guy, could you post few images/ are you pleased?

I'd like to order it right away if I like it...

Guy Mancuso
23rd August 2008, 04:47
So far I am very pleased with it . Let me take a shot or two for you.

Natasa Stojsic
23rd August 2008, 05:43
Guy, much appreciated!!!

stephengilbert
23rd August 2008, 06:19
There's a photo of the Fotoman RF here: http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=2120

I bought one too, largely because my old Leica RF showed distance in meters and I thought I'd prefer one in feet. Upon comparing them, I think that the Leica version is a little better to use. Of course, you'd have to locate a used one as they're not made anymore.

Steve

Guy Mancuso
23rd August 2008, 06:25
Thanks Steve I just been tasked to honey dues. Man i hate Saturday's

fotografz
23rd August 2008, 06:41
Thanks Steve I just been tasked to honey dues. Man i hate Saturday's

You and me both Guy. A whole vacation week of Honey-Dos ... and waiting for workmen with my checkbook in hand :thumbdown:

Guy Mancuso
23rd August 2008, 06:44
I would rather write the check. LOL

Here is a image from Steve that he wanted to post. Comes with a little case and BTW this thing is about as big as my pinky finger

Natasa Stojsic
23rd August 2008, 07:10
Thanks to Stephen and Guy:thumbup:

Is there a way to mount it on ALPA, and Guy does it make sense?

How accurate is it?

Guy Mancuso
23rd August 2008, 07:22
Actually it was kind of odd mounting it to the Alpa on the side since you really have no place on the top deck with a finder unless you rotate them out. Clunky is what i would say. I just put it in my pocket and just use with one hand pretty easily. Yes it is pretty accurate but I need to test that more also. There is a pouch with a belt clip that comes with it and kind of nice way to carry it around.

LJL
23rd August 2008, 07:59
Guy, Natasa and others,
If you are looking to mount a couple of things atop the Alpa, this may be an inexpensive and flexible solution worth considering. Does not look like it would take up too much space, nor destroy the design lines for the camera. Worth considering.

http://www.broadcastrepair.com/sales/detail.asp?partno=RY-HOTSHOE-EXT

LJ

stephengilbert
23rd August 2008, 08:03
I'm sure Guy will provide more complete data, but at ten feet my Fotoman RF is exactly on the mark.

Guy Mancuso
23rd August 2008, 08:10
Mine at 10 ft is also on the mark. Interesting attachment LJ

Guy Mancuso
23rd August 2008, 08:12
Wow look at this cool idea from Alpa no less. This maybe the ticket

http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products/miscellaneous_accessories&detailpage=239

Guy Mancuso
23rd August 2008, 08:21
Ouch 161 dollars but I am thinking of getting it anyway. BTW great source of Alpa gear that I bought my TC from and such is http://www.fotocare.com/. Jeff is a really nice guy there. Or badger graphics

Natasa Stojsic
23rd August 2008, 13:53
Wow look at this cool idea from Alpa no less. This maybe the ticket

http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products/miscellaneous_accessories&detailpage=239


Was I wrong about the speed in my previous post;)

I will order one for sure!!!

Guy Mancuso aka JB 007:thumbup:


Stephen, Guy, Thanks again!!!

JEM_DTG
23rd August 2008, 17:26
Guy & Natasha<
I can confirm, the ALPA Decentered Accessory Adapter (No. 400060025 ) is the perfect solution for mounting the Fotoman Auxilary Rangefinder to ALPA 12 TC. It takes a bit to get used to it on the side of camera, but it becomes quite handy to always have it on-camera.

With the Fotoman Aux Rangefinder attached to the left-hand side of the camera, the focus distance dial is easily visible, without having to fully take your eye away from the dedicated ALPA viewfinder. This makes confirming focus distance from the rangefinder to the lens fairly quick.

Regards,

Jordan Miller
DTG (http://www.dtgweb.com)


Wow look at this cool idea from Alpa no less. This maybe the ticket

http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products/miscellaneous_accessories&detailpage=239

PeterA
23rd August 2008, 18:08
I am dismayed to see Alpa users wanting rangefinders and meters and all the other paraphernalia which already exist on your other cameras - the Alpa is an opportunity to shoot with your eye and heart - leave your autopilot at home if you want to get the biggest buzz out of these machines. Doesnt take rocket science to figure out light/aprture and distance with a 35/or 24. SHAME !!:ROTFL:

Jack
23rd August 2008, 18:45
I am dismayed to see Alpa users wanting rangefinders and meters and all the other paraphernalia which already exist on your other cameras - the Alpa is an opportunity to shoot with your eye and heart - leave your autopilot at home if you want to get the biggest buzz out of these machines. Doesnt take rocket science to figure out light/aprture and distance with a 35/or 24. SHAME !!:ROTFL:

AMEN to that!!!!

:ROTFL:

Stuart Richardson
23rd August 2008, 19:24
Actually, I will disagree with that. What's the point of paying a small fortune for an absurdly precise and highly performing piece of equipment if you are going to shoot it carelessly. If you are going to play fast and loose, why not just use regular camera and lens? Or better yet, a Holga.

PeterA
23rd August 2008, 22:49
Stuart - the answer to question is quite simple - because the lens dictates certain apertures and your digi back ISO determines the rest.

eg With a Schneider 35 and a digi back at ISO 50-100 - you will be shooting at apertures between F8-16. ( really f8 -F11 is teh sweet spot ) This leaves speed as the next variable - here in morning or afternoon light you will be shooting between 15th and 125th of a second - want to shoot in midday sun ? - well thats means you are shooting from 1/30th to 1/250th - depending. Now we get to focusing. Well you are using a 35mm LF circle wide. You get hyperfocal 1 metre to infinity at F11 on a use-able hand-holdable speed. You want a really precise focus well check out ANY LF image circle lens and you will see a NOT very precise focusing ring in terms of engraved measurements - and it doesnt take much to get used to 'fast and loose' shooting when you have that kind of DOF and 40 megapixels of resolution.

want to use a ground glass and get perfect focusing ( on what?) - well that isnt the type of shooting I have used my Alpa's for and would never- and there are MUCH better cameras around for that purpose.

Still if people want to hang a bunch of after market gizmos on their Alpa - hey no skin off my nose - but similarly - please I just cant help chuckling -:)

Guy Mancuso
24th August 2008, 05:24
Peter I know it sounds a little strange to have a focusing aid on these but i do envision sometimes when I am pretty close to something under the 10 ft mark that I need accurate it would be a handy tool to have.i also would like to try some more wide open shots for effect and there i want to be on the money. But your point is well taken for sure. it's the 10 percent of the time that i see myself using it. Also the 47mm is not as easy as the 24mm. i already blew a couple landscape shots with stuff close. This one for example I missed what i wanted in focus and i was close and stopped down pretty far

rweissman
24th August 2008, 11:04
I see at Calumet and elsewhere that normal Schneider lenses go for much, much less than those sold by Alpa. It looks like the specially adapted lenses sold by Alpa are 2 - 2.5x the price of similar Schneider Digitars, for example, on the open market.

Must one use one of the Alpa-native or Alpa-adapted Schneider or Rodenstock lenses sold by Alpa? Or can you use any equivalent Schneider or Rodenstock lens? Is there a lens adapter for lenses not sold by Alpa themselves? There seems to be some sort of lens adapter on the Alpa website, but it is unclear what/how it is used.

stephengilbert
24th August 2008, 11:19
Given the simplicity of the design of ALPA 12's, I'm sure it would be possible to have a mount made to allow the use of a non-ALPA lens. (I'm pretty sure ALPA offers to modify your "used" lenses.) The question is how much money would be saved by having someone create the adapter and focussing hardware required. I suspect that a one-off job wouldn't be cheap, and someone making adapters in bulk might draw an unfriendly response from ALPA.

Steve

PeterA
24th August 2008, 14:31
Guy - I am all in favour of whatever helps get the shot.

Re the cost of Alpa lenses - I think the cost is in the actual mount rather than the lenses. HoweverI dont think it is a big market and hence dont expect to see competiton in alternative Alpa mounted lenes emerge.

This is a big part of the reason I am waiting for the release of the Arca Swiss system ( with built in tilt) as a viable alternative. Mind you there are only two lenses I am interested in having for an Alpa or similar - the 24/35.

It really is a eccentric portable light beautiful system - for wide shooting. Not perfect at anything with limitations in focusing especially - hence I limit interest to wides those beautiful wides from Schneider and Rodenstock.

Happy Shooting!
Pete
An unrepented gearhead because that is what you use to make photos.

Henry Goh
5th May 2009, 07:51
This has been an educational thread. Thank you all.

One question: can I use a P30+ on a camera like the Alpa? or do I need to get a non-microlens back?

Guy Mancuso
5th May 2009, 07:57
No since the Alpa TC does not do any shifting you can use it as well with the P30+. The neat thing about it it really is a cool little setup that you can put in a very small bag and run out the door and I even did some street work with it ala Leica M style. Focusing is the tough part

Henry Goh
5th May 2009, 08:02
I used to guess-focus with my SWC903 but that was film.

So a 24mm on P30+ will give the 35mm equivalence of 19.2mm lens. Not bad

TimWright
5th May 2009, 08:33
I use one of those little range finders from fotoman. Badger graphics has them.

Mark_Tuttle
5th May 2009, 13:27
Guy, to answer your question from my own personal testing on that same 47XL you are using, f11 is about the limit. At f16 and beyond, things go to mush pretty dang quickly. On the other hand, they are excellent wide open also, with the peak on the 47mm being at f5.6 in my own tests.

This is close to my experience with a P45 using Digitar 35mm and Rodenstock digital 55mm. F8 is the best, F11 is very good, but f16 is starting to head south. Note that this is more evident if you are planning on a final native image size print (for me 360ppi gives 15 x 20) rather than a small add, and if you are using a back with the 6 micron sensor rather than a 9 micron sensor the difference between 'sharp' and 'unsharp' is more noticed.

Sounds to silly, but level the camera and shoot through the f-stops on a wide gravel surface, preferably facing up slope. Lot's of little detail from one side of the frame to the other and it really gives you a very graphic indication of where your focus is and what the characteristics are from edge to edge as you stop down (and how much depth of field each gives). This exercise is also helpful if you can shift your back right and left because it gives an indication of just how far you can shift and get an acceptable sharpness.

YMMV, but this has worked well for me in getting my head around the issue.

Mark

Sarnia
29th November 2010, 08:31
Does anyone know if a Mamiya ZD back would work on an Alpa TC? On the Alpa website the Mamiya adaptor plates are listed as being for use with Phase One or Leaf backs but no mention is made of Mamiya backs.

Thanks in advance.

GrahamWelland
1st December 2010, 21:52
I don't believe the ZD back is usable with a technical camera. The Leaf and Phase One backs use the PC Sync from the shutter to trigger the back. I don't recall the ZD having a remote PC sync which would be the deal killer.

I have both the Leaf and Phase One backs - the Leaf has a view camera mode which allows triggering the back via the sync port (vs camera electronics), and in the case of the P40+ you have the option of either having the back be woken up before sync or you can set the latency mode to short and have the back 'active' all the time. Again, I don't recall seeing any of these options with the ZD.

toramip23
31st March 2011, 17:12
Issue is for me the 47mm is well covered with my 35mm and 55mm. I need a 24mm to make this a stronger device for me but if someone wants very small and a M8 on steroids it is tough to beat given the size and these great optics in the digitars.