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Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 07:30
Hello Everyone,

This is a new day in medium format photography and we actually have a revolutionary product come to digital Medium Format photography. The days of CCD sensors just maybe be numbered or not. Market will determine that one but today a new breed is among the community a new Sony Fabricated 50 MPX sensor being used by Leaf/Mamiya, Phase, Hassy and Pentax. They all share the same basic sensor but lets be clear they all design there sensors for there needs and add the algorithms to each brand to what each brand feels is the best setup for there backs. I think its safe to assume though that in basic terms these CMOS sensors will perform very similar in Image Quality. I think mostly we may see color renditions diffrently and things like that. Coming from 5 CCD sensors myself all within the Phase brand with 2 Kodak and 3 Dalsa CCD sensors we have differences on output of file. I came from a P25plus, P30 Plus, P40 plus, IQ 140 and a IQ 160. They all rendered differently for sure but now we have CMOS sensors all with the same basic charactoristics and we will focus more on feature sets and functionality between the brands. Let me be very clear here I am more interested in this review of CMOS itself than between brands. Now having said that I am thrilled to have the Leaf Credo 50 to use as a test bed for the future. This is one very nice back by a brand that has been in the industry for many many years and a world class leader in it as well. So when Francis Westfield from Mamiya/Leaf contacted me to spend a day with him and the Credo I said "I do" without question. LOL

Francis is one of those guys in the industry you just like spending time with and very knowledgeable and knows the industry very well plus a really nice guy to hang with. So first I want to give kudos to him and Mamiya/ Leaf for this opportunity for me to review the Credo. Secondly my next phone call was to Capture Integration my dealer since day one in MF for me and they loaned my a Alpa STC tech cam and 40 roadie and could not jump fast enough to get it out the door for me to work with. Again folks this is the Medium Format industry with dealers and representatives that you will not find anywhere else in the photo community. These guys are special and want to help in anyway they can. I bought all 5 backs from CI and I would never buy another without that dealer support. Thats me , thats the way I roll.

So Francis flew into Phoenix and we drove up to a town in Northern Arizona called Jerome which is a old copper mining town. Also I placed a call to our own Bob Freund here at GetDPI to join us for the day. Not sure anyone knows the story but Bob ran out of gas with his snowblower in Massachusetts and like any self respecting man decided to sell it the house and all that goes with it and move to a better climate. He now resides here in Arizona with his wife. The Honey Badger is semi retired now and enjoying his new digs.

Here is a video now to introduce them and the Credo 50. At the end of this video I mentioned Francis doing a section on the menus. Due to technical difficulties I do not have that clip. Maybe better said Im a freaking idiot and screwed it up. **** happens


https://vimeo.com/107647117


My disclaimer. I like to save this to last as I feel it is important. Just for the record no one pays me to do these reviews i have no affiliation with anyone but done purely on friendship, desire to learn and being a huge part of this industry for close to 40 years. I feel its my duty to help others in the business and more importantly to help end users learn about products that we buy and use. I do these to the best of my abilities and experience and they are clearly my opinion and my opinion only. Im here to report my findings and that is all I am here to do.

Images Posted and Uploaded

All Images posted are bearing my copyright and all raws uploaded for end users to use are restricted to only placing them up here on GetDPI and on no other forum. No exceptions folks. I can't support my findings on other sites that I don't visit. I believe that is unfair to the review and also to the OEMs of these products if I cannot answer on what I did or how they make there products. But please download the raws and process them to your taste and report whatever findings you have. Thats how we all learn but i do want it all here. Capice

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 10:20
Lets get on with it already. LOL

I did happen to shoot both the DF+ camera with a 55mm LS when I was with Francis and afterwords i used the Alpa tech cam. I should note here that I did do a critical firmware upgrade to the back just yesterday morning 9/29 and all backs going into production will have the new firmware nothing was mentioned but some feature sets. Nothing to concern yourself with and nice to see they are improving it more going into production. Pretty typical on new release products

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 10:48
HIGH ISO

I think one of the main reasons to be looking at the Credo 50 and other CMOS backs is finally the ability to shoot these at higher ISO's. Something in all honesty we were not able to get past even the mid ISO with CCD backs. This is very exciting and I am seeing some very positive results here. I know we all have a level of noise tolerance on what is acceptable and what is not. I can say we took a huge leap forward by several if not more stops. It feels like the Nikon, Canon, Sony range that we have enjoyed. So lets get into that out of the gate.

I was actually getting organized but I asked Francis to run this series inside the church in Jerome and its pretty representative of low light shooting. I also ran a test in my kitchen today as a secondary backup with a tech cam.

Here the DF+ was used with a 55MM LS lens at F10


http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/ff_1600.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/iso_100.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/_320070.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/iso400.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/iso_800.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/_292186.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/iso3200.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/iso_6400.jpg

FULL FRAME ISO 1600 SHOT. NOW I LEFT EVERYTHING AT DEFAULT SO LUMINANCE, DETAIL AND COLOR ARE ALL AT 50 IN C18. I ONLY PUT SHARPNESS AT 190, .6,1 AND JUST HIT THE HIGHLIGHT DOWN A TOUCH. THE WHOLE SERIES IS EXACTLY THE SAME.

We can certainly do some work when we get to the higher ISO to reduce noise even further but for this test I left noise settings at default and you folks can play with that with the raws.

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 11:21
Now before anyone says it, my Nikon can do that well there has NEVER been a Medium Format back in CCD that would even BE CLOSE to these results. Seriously the best I ever got and that was just acceptable was 800 and looked more like these 3200 or even 6400.

This is huge and I am using defaults here. Lets go play

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 11:33
http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/tweaked_3200.jpg


http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/iso3200.jpg

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 11:34
Something to play with I did raise the luminance on it.

But here are the Raws. They have a limited time period so download now

https://www.hightail.com/dl?phi_action=app/orchestrateDownload&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Ftransfer.php %3Faction%3Dbatch_download%26send_id%3D2637559574% 26email%3D3377a113052b9dd012107522af5c52e6

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 11:48
To save a little time. Here is a Kitchen series High ISO test but I only did ISO 100,400,1600,3200 and 6400. I did shoot the tech cam here

Here is a ISO 100 image focus your attention when looking at the raws towards the microwave and back cabinets for noise attributes.

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/kitchen_iso.jpg

Again here are the Raws

https://www.hightail.com/download/UlRSeVd0UnFwTVhLd01UQw

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 13:14
Live View. Wahoo!!!

Outside of High ISO MF digital never really had live view worth anything like the 35mm folks with CMOS sensors. Folks this is a major breakthrough in MF backs to say the least. We been crying, begging and pleading for it since I can remember and now we finally have it but more important its excellent. From a guy that loves to shoot a tech cam this is just huge. No more GUESSING at your focusing, No more ground glass, viewfinders, Leica Disto's , Alpa HPF rings and being a math major to run a Arca. More important you can focus , compose, have 100 magnification and focus like a normal camera and the most important benefit shoot a image KNOWING that you nailed it. All I have done through this whole testing the last week or so is use Live View both on the DF+ and the Alpa Tech cam. Yes even the DF+ I never looked through the optical finder to focus and compose. I can't tell you enough how nice this feature really is after owning 5 backs I finally know whats truly going on the sensor at the time of capture.

Now being a former D800e owner and currently a Sony owner the live view is pretty much exactly like the Nikon D800E . It looks very similar, acts the same and makes focusing a much easier task focusing either with the DF+ or a tech cam. For tech cam users all the money you save on NOT buying those accessories can go directly to that lens you really want. On the Credo 50 its very easy to get too you hit the top left button than the Live View Icon on screen and its there for tech cam users (need to open your lens) and for DF+ users you hit the Live View icon and the mirror goes up and out of the way. When your done you hit the left top button again and your in shooting mode. Very simple elegant way to go about it with either a DF+ or Tech cam. This is a huge selling point to these backs the High ISO ability and Live View I feel are the biggest feature sets.

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 13:34
Dynamic Range

Goes without saying these MF sensors have a tremendous amount of DR and always have over other systems. Now with CMOS we are at that same level or better and its really nice to be able to open up a image and also knock down those highlights to pull it all back in line.

Here is a simple example of that which Francis shot in the church. Shot at ISO 800

Straight out of the camera in C1

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001376_1.jpg

Now just working the file with shadow and highlight recovery you have so much elbow room to correct the blown highlights while doing some shadow lifting.

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001376_2.jpg

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 13:52
Phase DF+ with 55mm LS lens

Just going to load a few images shot at ISO 100 in outdoor light. I processed these to what I thought looked normal but as you can see when you play with the raws there is a lot of work you can add to it like shadow recovery and pull out a lot of detail in the shadow areas. Im trying to get you all involved with this review and get your processing these files to your liking so you understand them better. i can talk to Im blue in the face but unless you actually see the raws than you just get a better idea of this Credo 50. I wish I did not mess up the menu video as this back is very simple to use and has some really easy to read without your reading glasses menus. I suggest looking at their website for more info on that or better yet visit your dealer for a demo.

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 14:20
Oops have a ISO 800 shot first

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001380_1.jpg

The rest are ISO 100 at my favorite car junkyard in Jerome. All shot with the DF+ and 55mm LS

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001386.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001387.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001392.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001393.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001411.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001394.jpg

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 14:23
The color as you can see is outstanding and the files are really just amazing as you can see. 100 percent views are just awesome and I will upload these Raws as well.

Im very impressed at this point with the back and more importantly my attitude towards CMOS sensors has improved dramatically. Truth be told I did not expect these kinds of finished results from a Gen 1 50 mpx sensor. So have to give Leaf a lot of credit for making this back shine.


RAWS OF THE LAST SEVERAL SHOTS

https://www.hightail.com/download/UlRSeVdoZ1BGR0UxZXNUQw

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 14:46
Folks due to some maintenance on the site in the next day or so I decided to go live with this review. I will continue to add a lot more data but this gives folks a chance to start downloading files and me a chance to continue on but I am going to lock the thread just to preserve the flow until I get more data up. Than i will unlock it and you all can start posting.

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 15:42
Tech Cam Section

Wanted to start with these shots as they are with the Alpa 12 STC cam with a 40mm Rodie lens. Now the Alpa STC does either left to right stitch or rise and fall but it does not do both at once . So to do this I had to tilt the whole camera back and I will fix in CS6 after the fact. There are ways around this but it involves Panning and I wanted to shift for this test.

Now I did here a 15mm 3 shot vertical stitch. left, Center and Right. These first Image are done without LCC corrections to specifically show the lens falloff . This is really not a back issue but simply a Image circle issue and running out of it. This will all correct very nicely when applying the LCC corrections to it but this is what the fall off is doing at 15mm.

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000191_1.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/_822954.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/right_side_15mm.jpg


Now after LCC corrections and stitching in CS6 I come up with exactly this

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/_75564.jpg

After fixing the perspective which crops off some image and again this is a camera limitation not a back

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/_547148.jpg


Than after all that I decided to step back as far as i could to fill the frame with a straight non stitched shot. Now your wondering why I could not do this from the other side. Cow Pies all over the place and Im not stepping in that stuff. I have a 8 week old puppy in the house creating pies of her own. But as you can see the blue sky looks pretty close to the straight shot. Edit wanted to add i did do a 5mm rise on the straight shot. No LCC for it at 5mm I believe you can get away without one

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/straight_40mm.jpg

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 16:03
There is a faint purple cast on the left side and I am noticing this on 18mm stitch shots as well. Im not exactly sure what this is and why. First thoughts would be too far a stitch for a 40mm Rodie, I could be doing something wrong with processing as well. So again Im loading up the raws both the image raws and LCC raws and let you folks have a stab at this. Honestly its been awhile since I did LCC so I could very well be missing something. I will say it is less severe than the 18mm stitch shots so it could very well be a limitation of the lens and its falloff at 15 and 18mm. Maybe 12mm is the max

I don't want to dwell on it because it really is not a back function per say. It maybe be a combination of body, lens, processing and back. But I am bringing it up so we are all aware. Something on the left and not on the right has me baffled. But i have seen this on CCD sensors as well my IQ 160 for instance with a SK 28mm

Here are the raws for that series. I included the straight 40mm shot as well

https://www.hightail.com/dl?phi_action=app/orchestrateDownload&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hightail.com%2Ftransfer.php %3Faction%3Dbatch_download%26send_id%3D2637739769% 26email%3D3b627e8cfa70485d483700b072836259

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 16:14
Im just going to post the final stitch shots here on out as you folks that download them can see the falloff and such and i will keep loading up each sets of Raws. This is a lot of work doing these type of reviews. I like to keep everything on the table so you can make smart decisions on these systems and see exactly what I have done. I hope this helps folks.

Guy Mancuso
30th September 2014, 16:21
here is another 3 shot vertical stitch but this time I went as far as the Alpa would go to the extremes of 18mm in either direction. I should point out all of these corners are very good and fair warning viewing these files at 100 percent will make your wallet scream for mercy. There that damn good

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/18mm_stitch.jpg

raws for this series

https://www.hightail.com/download/UlRSeVduQVNQb0tFQk1UQw

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 02:40
Got a note this morning from our friends at Leaf with a suggestion to use the LF4 Landscape profile. It takes some of the Magenta/UV hue out of the sky and makes Blues and Greens a bit more saturated. Regarding stitching we can see on the LCC shots that it has been shifted a bit too far but even then the results are very good I think.

I’ve attached jpeg from my take on the two stitched images. I basically left some of the vignetting in, changed the profile and tweaked shadows and NR a bit

I also used local purple fringe brush to clean some of the edges on the fitness centre image

Here is Yair's take on it

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/fitness_centre.jpg

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 02:43
Im going to run out this morning before Rod Klukus from Arca comes to pick it up for his tests and try it at 12mm shift on either side of center. My reasoning is I think 12mm is it and from Jack and Bob owning this lens i thought 12mm was the case even with CCD sensors. This is just me being anal so Im going to run out and try it

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 03:00
Here is another example at 18mm shift in either direction I used the landscape profile and its pretty clean but going to go back and try 12mm. Like I said early reason for the raws is you folks might see something I am not in the processing. But i want to point out something these images i am not seeing smearing in the corners so the lens is performing at these shifts. I also reside maybe on the brightest sun on the planet. Its hell out here, not sure what effect that maybe having.

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/_559192.jpg

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 03:09
Here is a straight single shot with 5mm of rise no LCC. Look at that detail. Remember this is 14 mpx more than my Sony and i can't even get close to this detail.

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000160.jpg

I also included this in the raws although its the next frame it is the same

Raws are here

https://www.hightail.com/download/UlRSeVdseWFlcEo3czlVag

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 03:17
Oh hope you got your diffusion glasses on this is going to hurt

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/_87051.jpg

this one really is killer

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/tech_cam.jpg

My new digs if I buy one of these , this is what my wife will pick out for me.

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000178.jpg

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 03:24
Shot with about 5 mm of rise on the 40mm . Here is a good color checker shot you can use with pretty much all the outdoor morning shots as there around the same timing

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000163.jpg

this one with a LCC correction

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000166.jpg

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 03:28
Running out of time for testing but I did sneak in a 1 minute exposure. The darkest room in the house with a window light. Pardon all the baby stuff but thats from my daughters baby shower and there is so much stuff we had to use a whole room in the house for her, you don't even want to see whats on the floor. LOL

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000211.jpg

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 03:31
Well I have some images left to upload but I will open up the thread now and let everyone post.

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 03:46
My thoughts

I have many thoughts here and will continue to add as we discuss this new Credo 50. First again thanks for everyone involved and Leaf for putting out a revolutionary CMOS back out that has really not been done before. I really like this back and I seriously would buy one. I love the live view, frankly not sure I could be without one and having this high ISO ability is just outstanding.

Now one thing I have noticed over CCD backs is my highlight warnings tend to come up a little earlier than expected so we may need to rethink this expose to the right of the histogram. Here is why with the noise floor so high here with outstanding high ISO we have a tremendous amount of noise floor to pull up the shadows to get amazing detail out of it without added noise that we get sometimes with CCD backs so you maybe better off protecting your highlights a little more and leaving yourself some elbow room. That statue shot Francis took is really a touch over the edge and I am pulling the highlight recovery to full max but i had plenty of shadow recovery. My suggestion is stay close to the middle of the histo than trying to stretch to the far right too much.

Now that maybe the nature of CMOS and even with my Sonys and Nikons you really need to watch the highlights. So i believe this is pretty normal for CMOS. Color on this Credo 50 is far better than I thought it would be , folks thats just Leaf they are so damn good at color and in my mind the best of the MF people. I see the hate mail coming but lets be honest Leaf color has alway been outstanding and there engineers are the brightest in the business. No secret here its just fact.

The menu layout and Im still shooting myself over losing that video clip but its a very simple back with nice operations and readability to it and I love the touch screen.

They also improved the locking mechanisms to the back to the body with a 1 slide and 1 push operation that really takes the sweat away. I can't tell how nice knowing your not going to blow it with the old one push operation. This is basically a safety catch from losing a crap load of money on a fall. Kudos and major one at that

I will come up with more comments its still very early in the day and I need MORE espresso. Have fun and enjoy this review i really hope I gave you enough to think about and help in any decision process but seriously I would buy this if I was in the market and no I already tossed my name in the hat for a long term 1 to 2 year user review. Leaf ???LOL

I really miss the MF world and someday hope to back at it. But until than i can drive myself crazy playing and reviewing these systems and hope.

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 03:47
If I missed any raws please let me know but you have about 6 days to download so get on it

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 03:49
One thing is battery life , its far better with the CMOS sensors and i have gone maybe through 1 batteries worth on all of this. Thats really good to have

Im going to go put my head back down than run out and shoot some 12mm shifts this morning. Im just being anal about this but I do think 15mm and 18mm shifts are really pushing the lens image circle. I have more single shot images to post as we go and I do have from another photographers portrait shots at high ISO that are really nice to see. Just waiting for his name to give him credit but Leaf does have permission to use them in my review. As a working Pro I can tell you want premission to post others work. Trust me i will sue someones arch if they did it to me without it. LOL

Photgrapher name is
Photographer: Pete Albert
Model Rachel: Gearhart

So I will get those up today and they are very nice images that show the high ISO off very well.

Paul2660
1st October 2014, 04:00
Guy

Thanks for the review and access to the raw files.


Paul

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 04:05
Guy

Thanks for the review and access to the raw files.


Paul

You are welcome my friend and i know your very interested in the new CMOS tech for MF and I do hope this helps you a great deal. Please tell us your thoughts as you go on with the processing.

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 04:09
BTW something I did not mention was sensor size it is not full frame but like the Credo 40, P40 Plus and IQ 140. I had the two later backs the P40 and IQ 140 and it never really bothered me, I know for some it does and I can understand the wide angle lose of precious MM but in some cases when lens corner sharpness is not at its best than a crop sensor just escapes that issue. So for some its a tough call to get lees than full frame but there are benefits as well.

When I went from the P40+ to the IQ 160 I agonized over this decision maybe more than anything else ever in photography. In the end I went full frame but I was not that convinced and why i took so long to make that call. This one is a personal preference decision but we may or may not see a bigger CMOS sensor, I don't have a answer for the future backs.

vjbelle
1st October 2014, 04:31
I also agonize of the crop factor. Its a big deal especially when I take my 80MP images and crop down to 50MP. I don't care so much about throwing away the pixels as I can easily work with 50MP but its the REALLY big step back that I have to take for equivalent FOV. I don't want to replace lenses just for this back. The FF chip will be here soon enough. What would have been the ideal for me is FF 50MP with fatter pixels.

Victor

vjbelle
1st October 2014, 04:33
Guy,

You mentioned battery life being better...... I'm assuming that live view doesn't suck the life out of the batteries as much as CCD because of the power efficiency of the CMOS chip. Can you comment?

Victor

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 04:37
Victor I think with all the live view going on you will equal a CCD without it or better. So in effect your still running very well on batteries and in this whole review I used it constantly . So its a pretty big battery saver overall. I mean I would still take 3 batteries for the day of shooting just because its safe to do but I don't think you will actually use them. Great question.

I can tell you this it's far better than my Sony A7r which is a pig on battery life. Battery is just too small.

These are the same batteries leaf and Phase use today

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 04:41
I also agonize of the crop factor. Its a big deal especially when I take my 80MP images and crop down to 50MP. I don't care so much about throwing away the pixels as I can easily work with 50MP but its the REALLY big step back that I have to take for equivalent FOV. I don't want to replace lenses just for this back. The FF chip will be here soon enough. What would have been the ideal for me is FF 50MP with fatter pixels.

Victor

Agree its a tough call but stitching can help too. It will depend also if your willing to wait it out. I personally I'm not that patient. I honestly don't know if FF is even in the plans.

torger
1st October 2014, 04:46
Some of the MF users think that a larger sensor gives more of the "MF look"(tm) in terms of depth of field and more subtle qualities of lens rendering when you work with portrait photography.

As a tech cam user I don't have eyes for that, but it does seem to be real to many.

Kolor-Pikker
1st October 2014, 04:57
Nice review, crashed Safari on my iPad twice from all the images.


I also agonize of the crop factor. Its a big deal especially when I take my 80MP images and crop down to 50MP. I don't care so much about throwing away the pixels as I can easily work with 50MP but its the REALLY big step back that I have to take for equivalent FOV. I don't want to replace lenses just for this back. The FF chip will be here soon enough. What would have been the ideal for me is FF 50MP with fatter pixels.

Victor

This really would be pretty interesting to see, if Leica could stitch a couple M240 sensors for Bond, Sony could do it too to get 40x54mm, probably not until they make their own camera though. Lots of rumors about an RX1 style camera with this sensor in it.


Some of the MF users think that a larger sensor gives more of the "MF look"(tm) in terms of depth of field and more subtle qualities of lens rendering when you work with portrait photography.

As a tech cam user I don't have eyes for that, but it does seem to be real to many.

I have a lot of books on photography from the 19th century and other early times, and it's a look you can clearly see being used, although the film sizes used were often large format. I don't think its something that's clear unless you compare very different format sizes.

jlm
1st October 2014, 05:23
curve ball here, but any comments on the Credo 50 vs the phase IQ250?

dougpeterson
1st October 2014, 05:54
Speak of the devil... We have our Mamiya Leaf Credo 50 Open House (https://www.digitaltransitions.com/event/training/mamiya-leaf-credo-open-house-10012014) today in Manhattan.

Ziv and Francis (Mamiya Leaf US) and several Credo 50 backs, and a plethora of example raw files are on hand.

dougpeterson
1st October 2014, 05:56
What is a large number of raw files called?

A pod of whales...
A flight of swallows...

A binary of raws?

darr
1st October 2014, 05:56
I have a lot of books on photography from the 19th century and other early times, and it's a look you can clearly see being used, although the film sizes used were often large format. I don't think its something that's clear unless you compare very different format sizes.

I too have studied some about this, (Hollywood's Glamour & Noir Portraits, George Hurrell, Clarence Bull, Laszlo Willinger, and more) and it is a combination of camera format (large format film), lenses, and the continuous lighting used on the film sets of the time, most notably fresnel type focusing spotlights. Dramatic black and white portraits with very distinct light and shadows.

Guy thanks for the helpful review!

vjbelle
1st October 2014, 06:00
curve ball here, but any comments on the Credo 50 vs the phase IQ250?

I would think that the differences are teeny tiny if any...... other than focus confirmation, which I have not found all that useful and don't use. Much easier to check focus with a loupe at 100% pixels on the back.

I will have a Credo 50 on Friday and look much more forward to comparing it to my IQ180..... especially color and DR. I already know that live view will be a killer improvement.

Victor

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 06:07
I did use a 65 dollar hoodman loupe . Far better than the 2 grand you would spend on all those focusing aids we use.

Heading out to shoot 12 mm shifts.

ErikKaffehr
1st October 2014, 06:09
A useful contribution?

Anyway, those raw images are helpful to see how the files respond to sharpening, noise reduction and so on. They also handsomely illustrate how good that Rodenstock HR lens really is. The Mamiya 55LS in the church shot, I would say it shows some weakness in the corners and also edges.


Best regards
Erik

What is a large number of raw files called?

A pod of whales...
A flight of swallows...

A binary of raws?

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 06:09
I would think that the differences are teeny tiny if any...... other than focus confirmation, which I have not found all that useful and don't use. Much easier to check focus with a loupe at 100% pixels on the back.

I will have a Credo 50 on Friday and look much more forward to comparing it to my IQ180..... especially color and DR. I already know that live view will be a killer improvement.

Victor

That would be fun to see. I wish I had the Credo 40 when I did this test. Be nice to see any differences between the sensors. The credo goes away at 10 am so I better get moving here.

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 06:11
A useful contribution?

Best regards
Erik

Agree this was a lot of work so hope we learn from it

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 06:11
Heck this actually cost me 59 dollars to upgrade my Vimeo account.

Paul2660
1st October 2014, 06:13
I also agonize of the crop factor. Its a big deal especially when I take my 80MP images and crop down to 50MP. I don't care so much about throwing away the pixels as I can easily work with 50MP but its the REALLY big step back that I have to take for equivalent FOV. I don't want to replace lenses just for this back. The FF chip will be here soon enough. What would have been the ideal for me is FF 50MP with fatter pixels.

Victor

I agree, the 1.3 crop for me a huge deal. Loss of 10MP pixels, is also a consideration, but not as much as the crop. I mainly shoot with the 28, 40 Rodie and the 60XL, and all of these lenses will be effected considerably.

As Guy points out, the 1.3 crop does however give you full resolution all the way to edges where I will start to sometimes see a bit of softness on full 15mm shifts with a 60MP back.

Paul

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 06:14
Also sorry for no real artistic shots. These are tests with lots of color but hopefully soon I can get one and do some personal shooting with one. I think you all need to send a letter to Leaf and get me a one year long term loaner test bed. ROTFLMAO

Bryan Stephens
1st October 2014, 06:43
Great review Guy. Cant wait until they come out with a full frame CMOS for MF. :D

torger
1st October 2014, 06:56
I shall try and give a summarizing comment on the tech wide angle performance.

This sensor is not designed to handle the relatively steep angles coming from Rodenstock wides. The sensor is pushed into crosstalk (ie mixing of color channels) with the 40HR. If we do not use the full 90mm image circle but keep within 70mm the crosstalk means some rolloff in color separation ("tonality") and saturation, but you won't get a total breakdown. If you shift hugely say 25-30mm you will get total breakdown with both strong desaturation and residual color casts. The breakdown can come a bit sudden as the sensor is designed with offset microlenses along the sides (ie to perform best with the lens centered).

Considering the color fidelity and tonality aspect the Credo 50 + 40HR can be compared to using a P65+/IQ160/IQ260 with an SK35. You have similar type of limitations of image circle use, and similar type of tonality falloff due to crosstalk. If it's okay to you is your decision.

Looking at the real-world results of Guy's test here and Doug's IQ250 tests and also doing some measurements on the LCC shots I'd say that you will very likely get good results if you keep within that 70mm. There is a clear amount of crosstalk going on, but the effect is hard to detect in a real image, there is not much desaturation in practice, you could argue that within this 70mm image circle the increase in noise due to vignetting is worse than any tonality loss. I think the Digaron-W 32 will work too, and if we're lucky the Digaron-S 28 works as well, as the wider angles seems to be a bit more retrofocus than the 40. I would not bet on it until thoroughly tested though.

Personally I don't think the SK35 on the IQ260 is a good idea, and I don't think the HR40 on the Credo 50 is either, but that's because I'm allergic to paying for image circle I can't use and as the engineer I am I don't like pushing sensors into the operating space where they're not designed to be, and I guess I have not fully come to peace with that tech cam users in general cares more about sharpness than tonality :). Still I'm less skeptic about the performance now than I was before. The reason is that I had seen some results of overshifted frames and then due to offset microlenses you get the effect that an area of the image circle that works okay with a smaller shift breaks down, so it looks worse than it is.

So if you can accept working within 70mm image circle and accept a little shaky tonality performance when shifting this can be the next big thing for tech users, live view at last!

Those that like to use tech wides and sensor design that actually match, 40/60 MP Dalsa and the Digaron series is great, and 50 MP Kodak and Schneider Digitar series is also great.

vjbelle
1st October 2014, 06:59
I agree, the 1.3 crop for me a huge deal. Loss of 10MP pixels, is also a consideration, but not as much as the crop. I mainly shoot with the 28, 40 Rodie and the 60XL, and all of these lenses will be effected considerably.

As Guy points out, the 1.3 crop does however give you full resolution all the way to edges where I will start to sometimes see a bit of softness on full 15mm shifts with a 60MP back.

Paul

I have 35XL (perfectly aligned by Schneider so its a keeper), 60XL, 100mm, 150mm. With my IQ180 the 100 is my most used lens. I won't care so much about the crop factor as long as there's no brick wall or water fall directly behind me. I really think that there will be a big improvement in color (for me). Also, for those times when I can't use a tripod, I could hand hold because of the extremely useful higher ISO's. I will see soon enough....

Victor

Paul2660
1st October 2014, 07:12
On the Live View:

Before I started to use the Surface Pro2 and the USB3 connection, I was also hoping for a Live View like on the modern DSLR's. As Guy points out with the CMOS back it's there and works great.

However, as I wide shooter, I have taken the time to understand my hyperfocal range of the lenses I use and have that charted. The Live View on the CCD backs is way to slow and in bright light blooms with each adjustment, some say that they can use, I can't. You literally can watch the battery drain and noise increase on the CCD backs as the chip heats up.

With the wides, I can dial in where I believe focus should be, shoot, and within seconds view the shot at 100% on the Surface. Surface has touch screen so it's just so fast to move around the file and determine if I have the focus where I want it.

However if I was using 90mm and up a lot I can easily see where the back live view would be a HUGE asset as the focus gets much more critical with the longer tech glass (at least for me). The 120mm especially as it's very easy to be just a bit off with that lens.

You can also setup a custom workspace, to push the shadows, so each image loads with a 1 to 1.5 push. This is a bit more than needed, but in the field it's an easy way to check to see if I have a bit too much noise in my shifts. In same custom workspace, I have the navigator tool so I can move around the file very fast.

Where as moving around an image on the LCD of the back, is much slower and there is still some lag (at least with my back) between zooming between normal and 100%, this seems to get worse also as the card starts to get full. As Ken has mentioned, the LCD on the back is for younger eyes, my older eyes do get tasked when viewing a lot of images on the back, where as the Surface again makes this so much easier and faster, at least for me.

I am still on the Surface 2, have a 3 but for now prefer the form factor of the 2. 3 works fine (on capture 7) when tethering, but I also feel the battery of the 2 lasts longer.

Sorry to get off topic a bit.

Paul

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 07:15
Okay just finished doing both shifts at 12mm I tend to think its the max for this combination . I also did some other tricks. One was rotating the lens to see if I have a lens issue than I did a 12mm rise with blue sky.

Okay weird **** happens a custom home builder was up here and now wants to hire me to shoot his custom homes with this thing. Now that's cool stuff.

Dave oh Dave my favorite drug dealer. Lol

I'll load it all up after breakfast

torger
1st October 2014, 07:19
Okay just finished doing both shifts at 12mm I tend to think its the max for this combination . I also did some other tricks. One was rotating the lens to see if I have a lens issue than I did a 12mm rise with blue sky.

A wierd (and interesting) trick to do is to turn the back upside down and shoot the same shifted shot again. The LCC will look different just as you see on your left/right LCCs. Maybe the end result after applying the LCC will look different too -- I don't know. It would be interesting to see.

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 07:22
You just might be able to use that 35xl on this but that's a test that needs to be done. Great lens and cheap too

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 07:23
A wierd (and interesting) trick to do is to turn the back upside down and shoot the same shifted shot again. The LCC will look different just as you see on your left/right LCCs. Maybe the end result after applying the LCC will look different too -- I don't know. It would be interesting to see.

I just did do that flipped the whole thing and shot it upside down the back that is for a 12mm rise in blue sky. I'll load that too

vjbelle
1st October 2014, 07:39
You just might be able to use that 35xl on this but that's a test that needs to be done. Great lens and cheap too

A very, very sharp lens that I sent back to Schneider for tweaking.... they really made it perfect for me.... at no charge! I limit rise on my IQ180 to 5mm. I'm hoping I can get that out of the Leaf. For shift I rotate around the nodal.... works like a charm.

Victor

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 08:36
Okay I nailed it down. 12mm is the answer. Honestly I knew it all along Im just stubborn and wanted 18mm and seriously you still can as the corners are not smearing but you may need to do additional work with regards to color.

First a WB shot

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000225.jpg

Now this on screen is just dead perfect. No changes here except 12mm shifts in either direction so 3 shots.

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/12mm_stitch.jpg

Once again a color card

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000234_1.jpg

Again a 3 shot vertical at 12mm. This looks perfect. Case closed 12mm is the safe bet with a Rodie 40mm and the Credo 50 and thats 24mm worth a shift that is really good.

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/big_bronco.jpg

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 09:08
Interesting the back is actually upside down with a 12mm of rise on it.

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000245.jpg

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 09:13
This is a 12mm shot of the left side but I did rotate the lens. Very close

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000251.jpg

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 09:14
All testing is done the back is now in the hands of Rod. Sending Alpa back to CI. Depression is setting in. Im glad i ran out and shot it at 12mm shifts I feel much better now knowing its much better than 15mm and 18mm

Uploading raws now from this morning

Here we go. Enjoy

https://www.hightail.com/download/UlRSeVdvQTYzeUtLRmNUQw

vjbelle
1st October 2014, 09:39
FWIW 12mm of shift/rise/fall is equivalent to about 10 degree rotation in the 50 to 60mm range. I mention this because I use Nodal rotation a fair amount and stay very conservative with regards to overlaping. This rotation amount is a piece of cake for PTGui and allows movements in all directions at the same time.

Thanks for all the work...... really like the color out of this chip.

Victor

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 09:43
Color is really nice. i know its very saturated here in AZ due to the intense sun but it sure is vivid. I love cloudy days for a break. LOL

And yes shooting landscape type work Panos are so much easier than stitching and when the light is falling a much better option. No LCC needed and these stitching programs do a excellent job. Honestly I never really stitched that much doing landscape type work. Not only that you can get really wide doing 3 or more shots

ErikKaffehr
1st October 2014, 10:50
Hi,

What I have found is that I shoot more stitching on MFD than on 135, mostly because I use zooms on 135 and primes on MFD. I also do more focus stacking on MFD. I don't feel tilts work well for my subjects, but I am still learning.

Simple stitching and stacking I often do in PS, but for real work I use Zerene Stacker and Autopano Pro. But, simple stuff works well in PS and it is well integrated with Lightroom.

Best regards
Erik



Color is really nice. i know its very saturated here in AZ due to the intense sun but it sure is vivid. I love cloudy days for a break. LOL

And yes shooting landscape type work Panos are so much easier than stitching and when the light is falling a much better option. No LCC needed and these stitching programs do a excellent job. Honestly I never really stitched that much doing landscape type work. Not only that you can get really wide doing 3 or more shots

iiiNelson
1st October 2014, 11:13
I shouldn't have looked and I really shouldn't have downloaded. I can say the engagement ring is definitely putting the Credo50/IQ250/H5D50 out of reach for me right now but if I haven't learned anything else on this forum I've learned to go MF before you're married because no ski masks will be needed then. RIGHT!?!

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 11:35
Your learning well. Lol

One word cubic zirconia . Oops that's 2

torger
1st October 2014, 11:36
And yes shooting landscape type work Panos are so much easier than stitching and when the light is falling a much better option. No LCC needed and these stitching programs do a excellent job. Honestly I never really stitched that much doing landscape type work. Not only that you can get really wide doing 3 or more shots

Again realizing I'm probably a minority but I don't really consider stitching at all. I did quite some stitching with my DSLR but since I started to shoot MF I haven't stitched a single shot. Getting a high resolution system and still have to stitch is not my idea of a nice workflow.

One of the strongest points of MF tech cams I think is the compositional flexibility, framing and completing the scene and just shoot one shot, just as in the large format days. That's one reason I've been so concerned of this crosstalk issue, I want plenty of unrestricted movement range.

When I started out with MF I had those rules with max Xmm with lens XYZ for sharpness reasons, but now I have largely dropped that and I shift more than I did before. I find compostional possibilities to be more valuable for me than having the utmost corner sharpness in every shot.

Actually I think I'm more of a large format shooter too lazy to use film than a MFD tech cam shooter :-)

torger
1st October 2014, 11:38
I can say the engagement ring is definitely putting the Credo50/IQ250/H5D50 out of reach for me right now

If V-mount is okay for your intended use you have the CFV-50c, at "only" $15k.

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 11:40
I use rise and fall almost always and I agree shooting these big backs is often quite enough for IQ. It's really the glass that's the real magic. There so good even backs like the P25 look outstanding. I do use tilt. Not so much in this testing but if it's there I will use it but seriously without live view tilting is very tough to do. I think it's why many don't use it as much because focusing is not Normal your tilting the plane of focus and that's not easy for some to understand . Takes some real practice. Live view or tethered makes it easier.

torger
1st October 2014, 11:54
Tilting is not as useful on the wides either, although it has happened that I've tilted my SK35 when I've had the tripod low and shifted down. I chose a view camera design (Linhof Techno) so I could have tilt and swing on all lenses without paying extra for the mount each time.

I think the pancake cam HPF laser distance meter way of focusing won much extra ground because of the lacking live views in the CCD backs. I hope for a revitalization of the view camera design with live view backs coming. Therefore I'm really happy that the Credo 50 works a little bit better with the wides than I thought it would, although it's not fitting my shooting style and choice of lenses.

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 12:08
I'm having a lot of fun with my canon 17 TSE with tilt. But I agree I would use it far more with a 24,45 and 90 and use would go up as focal length does. When I had my cambo I did not get it on my Rodie 28 and some days I could have used it. The tilt adapter was on all week on the Alpa and its a nice tool to have bolted on . The folks at CI put a HPF ring on it to stop it at sit new infinity setting. Worked nice. They could have also just reset the lens ring itself but that's more permenant procedure. Here you could just take the ring off and on much simpler.

Paul2660
1st October 2014, 12:24
Actually I use tilt on all my wides, 28, 40, 35 and 60. Can make a huge difference in perceived hyperfocal distance. You have to watch the top of your image as it can easily be tilted out of sharp focus.

Most times on the rm3di, I will be a 1/2 a degree of tilt to 3/4. This small amount of tilt can give me a close end on my hyperfocal as close as 10 feet to infinity as long as the top of my shot is sky, I am fine.

While I owned it, the SK43 also benefited from tilt for the same reasons.

While on the 35mm systems, on the Canon 24 TS-EII, most times I was at F8 to F11 and tilt really did not help much.

It seems that F11 to F11-1 stop (copol 0) are the best apertures. However in low light or windy conditions, where I know I can't go past 200 on the IQ260, I often go to F8 or F8 -1 stop, and again tilt can really help with the close in details.

Paul

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 12:27
Agree and focus stacking only works good when there is no wind. It's limited for sure. Having it on cam is truly the better solution . That's one nice feature on the Arca is the tilt on the body and not the lens.

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 12:28
So I gotta ask have you folks been processing the raws. Love to hear folks impressions of it.

Paul2660
1st October 2014, 12:47
Yes, working on them right now. Big download for sure.

Thanks
Paul

yaya
1st October 2014, 13:10
Thought I'd throw a long exposure file into the mix...14 minutes on Rm2D with HR50-W, 8mm rise and an ND filter. The weird shadow at the bottom is from the lock on the walkway's fence

It's a railway bridge with trains running across every minute or so so there's some motion blur in there :-)

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/members/yaya/albums/tech-cam-images/7250-deutz-bridge-cologne-sept-2014-credo-50-rm2d-hr40-w.jpg

The RAW file is HERE (http://we.tl/DtWjmFCkdt)

Guy Mancuso
1st October 2014, 13:23
Yair since you are here was there anything I may have missed feature or function wise that you would like to talk about that would be great.

iiiNelson
1st October 2014, 13:48
If V-mount is okay for your intended use you have the CFV-50c, at "only" $15k.

If Pentax had Leaf Shutters on the horizon I'd just spring for it as the camera is very good. I can get a new Credo 40 or H5d with lens for the same money (or less) plus I have my 35mm systems. I'm not so interested in tech cams right now as I really only want it for portraits and the occasional landscape.

iiiNelson
1st October 2014, 13:51
Your learning well. Lol

One word cubic zirconia . Oops that's 2

LOL... I almost spit out my soda. Thakfully my conscious would never allow me to do that to her. She has an idea of how much I spend on my hobbies and she also encourages me to enjoy it (and occasionally make a little money on the side.)

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 07:15
Well not hearing much. You must love it and at your dealers right.

Forget the crop factor for a second. What really counts here is the new tech in CMOS. Is it in your future plans ???

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 08:32
Found a few more images

DF+ with 55mm LS ISO 100

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001396.jpg

Alpa Tech cam 40mm Roadie. Forgot the erase filter for the photographers shadow

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf000146.jpg

All of these shot with the DF+ 55mm LS and all at ISO 1600. I took creative processing license:D

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001401.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001402_1.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/cf001407.jpg

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 08:56
These are shot by another photographer that shot for the folks at Leaf . I do have permission to show these in the review but Im not going to upload the raws folks. I would not want anyone to load mine up either. But from what I can tell he shot the DF+ with a 240mm LS lens with the ISO 800, 1600, 3200 and 6400 he shot the 80mm LS all pretty much wide open or darn close to it. From what I understand its a setting sun situation and the last ISO 6400 they used a small LED light. Little tough for me to WB since there is no card in there so lets ignore that color on that one. I did the processing to what i thought looked good for that time of day.

Photgrapher name is
Photographer: Pete Albert
Model Rachel: Gearhart

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/credo_50_rachel_0020_1.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/credo_50_rachel_0040.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/credo_50_rachel_0065.jpg

http://www.getdpi.com/gallery/files/1/1/credo_50_rachel_0179.jpg

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 08:58
The detail is very good and more impressive is i see no hair weird artifacts in any of the images. Very clean indeed

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 09:06
I'm out if images to post at this point. Anyone have any to add please do.

RVB
2nd October 2014, 09:21
The detail is very good and more impressive is i see no hair weird artifacts in any of the images. Very clean indeed


Very impressive,digital is really maturing now,and cmos Medium format will only get better.. :thumbs:

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 09:29
Honestly if I was in the market I would jump on one of these cmos backs. Credo 50 being the least costly and down right really nice to shoot with leaf color. My 6th back would be this. I'm impressed and I really did not think it would be this good. I came from 5 CCD backs. But live view and high ISO was always a issue with them but not now. I agree it will only get better. I just wish I could do it. I miss MF a lot. The IQ just sucks you in

RVB
2nd October 2014, 09:39
Honestly if I was in the market I would jump on one of these cmos backs. Credo 50 being the least costly and down right really nice to shoot with leaf color. My 6th back would be this. I'm impressed and I really did not think it would be this good. I came from 5 CCD backs. But live view and high ISO was always a issue with them but not now. I agree it will only get better. I just wish I could do it. I miss MF a lot. The IQ just sucks you in

You know how it is Guy..life is full of swings and roundabouts ..you'll get one of these at some point..

A phase dealer I know told me there is a FF version planned and should be released in 2016,.. that would be very nice.. ;-)

I am surprised by the cmos IQ.. do you think that CCD has any advantage over this? I'm also really curious to see how the new S sensor performs..I know its based on M240 sensor although Leica said they have made changes on what they learned since they switched to cmos..

torger
2nd October 2014, 09:40
Actually the CFV-50c at $15k is the least costly by margin, and if you're going to shoot tech V-mount will do. The live view is probably considerably worse though, we have to wait until they finish the firmware upgrade to see exactly how that performs.

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 09:54
You know how it is Guy..life is full of swings and roundabouts ..you'll get one of these at some point..

A phase dealer I know told me there is a FF version planned and should be released in 2016,.. that would be very nice.. ;-)

I am surprised by the cmos IQ.. do you think that CCD has any advantage over this? I'm also really curious to see how the new S sensor performs..I know its based on M240 sensor although Leica said they have made changes on what they learned since they switched to cmos..

I'm not so sure there is a big difference than CCD. It seems very close by the IQ the DR, Detail and smoothness of tone seem very very close. It acts a little different you want to be careful of your highlights and since you get such a great noise bottom end than you may want to stay away from any blown highlights on screen which is adjustable . I would set it at 240 and be on the safe side. Also as long as you know each lens shift limits than you will stay out of trouble . Good news it seems they did a excellent job designing and building this sensor. For a first gen. It's really good

I do wish I had the Credo 40 or IQ 140 to compare with since it's the same size.

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 10:01
Actually the CFV-50c at $15k is the least costly by margin, and if you're going to shoot tech V-mount will do. The live view is probably considerably worse though, we have to wait until they finish the firmware upgrade to see exactly how that performs.

This will be interesting to see how everyones implementation of this sensor into their backs or bodies for that matter.

yaya
2nd October 2014, 12:30
I've been shooting and traveling with the Credo 50 since June and have a large collection of images from various genres and locations...If there's anything specific people here are interested in please let me know and I'll post!

BR, Yair

jagsiva
2nd October 2014, 12:48
Honestly if I was in the market I would jump on one of these cmos backs. Credo 50 being the least costly and down right really nice to shoot with leaf color. My 6th back would be this. I'm impressed and I really did not think it would be this good. I came from 5 CCD backs. But live view and high ISO was always a issue with them but not now. I agree it will only get better. I just wish I could do it. I miss MF a lot. The IQ just sucks you in


Guy, where do you rate it when shooting on the DF compared to your A7R purely from an IQ standpoint? Have you done any comparisons?

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 14:05
Sort of I shot something similar with both.

My take the Sony 50mpx

Better detail
Cleaner micro contrast
File actually looks smoother ( tonal range)
Color has a slight edge
Overall just more meat if you know what I mean

Rather shoot the Sony as far as a body though. Plus I would rather shoot the Sigma 35mm Art lens over the 55LS given the format I like the sigma lens. But the tech cam smokes everything.

Having a non compressed file is much more desirable than what Sony is doing on my A7r.

Okay I'll just say it. Sony is NOT building for the Pro but MF back OEM are. I would much rather own phase, leaf or Hassy systems as they are Pro level.

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 14:13
What I would like to see now there is CMOS in MF. A high end Mamiya 7 type mirror less cam with EVF that can take almost any MF lens like the Sony A7 series can. This way I can pick the best glass in any MM lens from among the brands. Including tilt and shift glass and be able to bolt the tech cam lenses on as well. Reinvent the DSLR and tech cams into one. How the heck you do that I don't know but we need to get smaller have more lens options and still be able to use these backs.

Not sure if any of that makes sense but mirror less, EVF and lens choices should be our next step.

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 14:18
I love the idea of the Sony A7 series now just take that apply it to MF and these new 50mpx bigger sensors and we may have something

jagsiva
2nd October 2014, 14:53
Yes, an A7 with this sensor would be sweet...with a helical focus mount for tech lenses (will have to figure out how to operate the Copal 0/aperture), OK, just woke up.

Guy, thanks for the detailed response, I guess the pixels are still larger on the 50MP back compared to the A7R which is great. I like the idea of LV, and ever since returning the IQ260 Achromat following the LV fiasco with Phase, I do have permission for a second back....

But probably best to wait. Tech cam use and FF are what allow me to justify price/effort for me with the IQ180, if I can get that on a CMOS back, I'd be a no brainer. Maybe in 2 years. Of course, Sony could be putting these 50MP sensors in the QX1 and selling them for $299 by then :)

jagsiva
2nd October 2014, 15:00
Having a non compressed file is much more desirable than what Sony is doing on my A7r.

Okay I'll just say it. Sony is NOT building for the Pro but MF back OEM are. I would much rather own phase, leaf or Hassy systems as they are Pro level.

Always wondered why they did that, it's not like they have a higher model they would have to worry about cannibalizing. Only thing I can think of is write speeds to an SD card which are quite a bit slower than CF cards.

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 15:01
Well I think most of you figured me out when it comes to gear I am not very patient at all. People, dogs and such yes very much so. But gear not a chance. Lol

Do you remember those crazy Eddie commercials from years ago. I'm more like scary Guy I buy and sell so much. Lol

I'm actually a little worried about a bigger sensor and tech cams. 50mpx is a nice sweet spot

Btw I mentioned in the review I meet a custom home builder when shooting the tech cam this week. Well he just emailed me to shoot his properties and wants to talk. Maybe something good will come from all this work. Lol might need that tech cam and back again.

Guy Mancuso
2nd October 2014, 15:03
Always wondered why they did that, it's not like they have a higher model they would have to worry about cannibalizing. Only thing I can think of is write speeds to an SD card which are quite a bit slower than CF cards.

Yea but it's not pushing 6 frames a second either. Makes you wonder what they where thinking. At least give us the option like Nikon does.

Paul2660
2nd October 2014, 17:01
If Sony does make a A7x with a 50MP MF chip, then things will get very interesting very quickly. It's all the same chip in Pentax, Phase, Hasselblad and Credo. Sure there are some "tweaks", but the chip is the same. It's a great chip. It's long exposure at base iso surpasses the Nikon D800 and D810 from what I have seen. If Sony puts the chip in a RX1 body, then things will stay the same a while longer as that body will not allow for a removable lens. I wouldn't be surprised is Sony has a non compete clause with the MF companies for a period of time, just like they did with Nikon and the 36MP chip. Sony had to wait a year before they could but that chip in their mount in the A7r. Imagine what the A7r would have done to Nikon sales of D800's if both cameras were announced and shipped at the same time?

Now take the A7x with the 50MP chip, with a Modified E or new mount, put that camera on a Arca Universalis, or Cambo Aptus, add a 40mm HR-W and you have a very very good solution. Even if the Sony A7x with 50MP costs 5K to 7K, it will still be so much less than the MF companies. Sony knows EVF technology, and peaking, so both of these would add to the package just as it does with the A7r.

I have used the bigger Arca M2 in the DSLR2 configuration on the A7r with the 35SK, 40HR-W, 60SK, and 90HR, and it's very powerful combination. I hope to have a finished review of this up on my site soon. This same setup with a 50mp MF chip would be amazing.

Paul

Ken_R
3rd October 2014, 10:55
The problem still remains. There is still no outstanding shift / tilt wide angle (in the 14-24mm 35mm equivalent focal lengths) solution for the Sony 50mp sensor regardless of platform.

There are some wide angle lens alternatives though. Hasselblad does have a nice 24mm lens available in H mount (and also a 28, both take filters in front of the lens) and of course Pentax has the new 28-45mm (very easy to filter with 82mm front thread. I have yet to see review / tests indicating it's performance characteristics) other than that the wide angle offerings for the 50MP Sony sensor are somewhat mediocre. It's a shame, seems like a superb sensor.

The Rodenstock HR-W lenses look good straight on though but like mentioned it's a shame to waste such large image circles.

ErikKaffehr
3rd October 2014, 11:35
Hi,

I just checked Hasselblad's MTF-curves for the 24 and the 28. Really good, about the best I have seen.

Not so easy to compare with Rodenstock / Schneider as Hasselblad uses 10/20/40 lp/mm and Schneider and Rodenstock uses 15/30/60 lp/mm and the technical camera lenses obviously have larger image circles.

My bank account doesn't allow switching to Hasselblad H-series, unfortunately.

Best regards
Erik




The problem still remains. There is still no outstanding shift / tilt wide angle (in the 14-24mm 35mm equivalent focal lengths) solution for the Sony 50mp sensor regardless of platform.

There are some wide angle lens alternatives though. Hasselblad does have a nice 24mm lens available in H mount (and also a 28, both take filters in front of the lens) and of course Pentax has the new 28-45mm (very easy to filter with 82mm front thread. I have yet to see review / tests indicating it's performance characteristics) other than that the wide angle offerings for the 50MP Sony sensor are somewhat mediocre. It's a shame, seems like a superb sensor.

The Rodenstock HR-W lenses look good straight on though but like mentioned it's a shame to waste such large image circles.

Paul2660
3rd October 2014, 13:42
"The problem still remains. There is still no outstanding shift / tilt wide angle (in the 14-24mm 35mm equivalent focal lengths) solution for the Sony 50mp sensor regardless of platform."

Ken, I was a bit confused on this. If I understand 35mm equivalent. There are several options that work on the 50MP Sony, in the digital back configuration.

Canon TS-E 24mm and 17mm, on either the Alpa FPS or the Hcam. Gerald has shown some excellent examples with the 17mm TS-E on the IQ250. These two lenses should also work on a Arca Universalis if one purchases the shutter and necessary electronics.

The Rodenstock 32mm HR-W should be very close to a 24mm 35mm equivalent and it seems to work well up to 10 to 15mm of shift depending on the image subject. This lens would work on a tech camera or Arca Universalis, and maybe the Cambo Actus for Digital backs.

The Rodenstock 23mm and 28mm both work on the IQ250/Credo 50 with a tech camera, and Voidshatter's test results in a different post on this site show that the 23 seems to do good up to 7.5mm to 10mm of rise, he did not check shift. These lenses won't work on the Universalis or Cambo solution due to the depth of the rear elements.

Guy's testing shows that the 40 HR-W seems OK up to 12mm, and can be pushed to 15mm again depending on the subject.

I may have missed your subject point on the 14-24 equivalents, looking for non tech lenses instead.

Paul

jlm
3rd October 2014, 15:27
guy may not have the interest or the connections ;), but the real test would be to compare the Credo at $29,000 to the hasselblad CV50C at $15,000

Guy Mancuso
3rd October 2014, 15:47
Connections are not the problem. Lol

Not sure it hit the streets yet

vjbelle
3rd October 2014, 18:25
Guy,

Received my Leaf 50 today.... couldn't be more thrilled. The crop is no big deal for me. Live view is unbelievable. I was able to shift/rise my 60mm Schneider XL 10mm without the need for an LCC. My only other wide is my 35mm Schneider XL which I'm sure I won't be able to shift at all..... but I couldn't on my IQ180 either. Your comments about the files being a little 'hot to the right' hit home. Slightly different from CCD. 50MP is very doable for a 40 inch print..... that's my average print so I know what things should look like when looking 'real' close. Very, very nice back.... and thanks to Dave at C1 for working with me.

Victor

Guy Mancuso
3rd October 2014, 18:33
Awesome. Glad my review helped you, that's my end goal.

Dave is my personal GAS supplier. Hope you told him the review helped.

Guy Mancuso
3rd October 2014, 18:33
Btw my bet 7mm on your 35mm. Try it, let me know if I'm close.

Guy Mancuso
3rd October 2014, 18:35
Victor might want to set you highlight level down to like 240 or so. That way if you hit it your too hot.

vjbelle
3rd October 2014, 18:42
Awesome. Glad my review helped you, that's my end goal.

Dave is my personal GAS supplier. Hope you told him the review helped.

I've worked with Dave for over 10 years..... he already knows you are the best....:clap:

Victor

Guy Mancuso
3rd October 2014, 18:52
I'm just waiting for a modification on the Cambo Aptus to try for the Sony. Looks like a fun tool. My next review

Guy Mancuso
5th October 2014, 09:14
I'm going to move this over to the review section so it's a permanent thread.

vjbelle
5th October 2014, 10:12
Btw my bet 7mm on your 35mm. Try it, let me know if I'm close.

I am able to shift/rise a solid 5mm. 10 is a no go. 7 is really on the edge so I stay with 5mm. In reality its not the way I would use this lens. If I would need shift then it would be much easier to turn left to right a total of 30 degrees (15 degrees from center in each direction) in portrait position. This produces a pretty big file that can be easily cropped if needed.

Victor

Paul2660
5th October 2014, 10:57
Victor

Are you turning around a nodal point? I use the 35SK in this fashion also when I can shoot in a level position. The 35SK has about the same shift range on my 260 7 to 8 mm max. Love the lens for long day trips as its so light and very sharp.

Paul

vjbelle
5th October 2014, 11:20
Victor

Are you turning around a nodal point? I use the 35SK in this fashion also when I can shoot in a level position. The 35SK has about the same shift range on my 260 7 to 8 mm max. Love the lens for long day trips as its do light and very sharp.

Paul

Yes, Paul. I have the Nodal points calculated on all of my lenses and find rotation for this lens to be a better solution than using camera movements. PTGui is the best of the best, for me, and keeps files very crisp and lines very straight. Plus camera movements have a physical limitation and each lens has its own deterioration characteristics when shifting from center (as I'm sure you know). So its kind of like pick your poison..... for me Lens rotation is many times a better solution.

And..... you are so right about the 35XL. Its a great lens that doesn't get enough respect...

Victor

vjbelle
5th October 2014, 12:07
guy may not have the interest or the connections ;), but the real test would be to compare the Credo at $29,000 to the hasselblad CV50C at $15,000

I think that live view will be noticeably better on the Credo.... but the Hassy will be so much better than CCD that it may be a moot point for some. Other than that they should be very similar.

Victor

Guy Mancuso
5th October 2014, 14:00
Credo is like most modern DSLR with live view. Very good

Guy Mancuso
7th October 2014, 04:16
Folks might want to visit these Stand out events in LA and SF to check this Credo 50 out.

jerome_m
7th October 2014, 12:18
Now before anyone says it, my Nikon can do that well there has NEVER been a Medium Format back in CCD that would even BE CLOSE to these results. Seriously the best I ever got and that was just acceptable was 800 and looked more like these 3200 or even 6400.


This is amusing. So you have pictures taken in a church at iso 1600. It just so happens that I also have pictures taken in a church at iso 1600, on an old H3D-31:

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8106/8518180473_5588524e15_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/dYHUhz)


The full resolution is here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jerome_munich/8518180473/sizes/o/

Guy Mancuso
8th October 2014, 05:31
I had a Phase P30 plus same sensor and it was about the best at high ISO but the Credo is still about 2 stops better when it comes to noise. Credo is really nice at ISO 3200 my p30 was about equal at 800. But you could not use either the H31 or the P30 on a tech cam. For there time they where great backs.

tjv
12th October 2014, 00:15
So, on the Digital Transitions IQ250 tech camera test, I believe it states they recommend using up to 70mm of image circle with the 32mm HR W. Am I right in thinking that's only 7.5mm of shift in one direction? Have others tested the 32 HR-W with this sensor and found better results, or am I miscalculating something? I ask because 12mm of rise / fall is all I'd need...

kimyeesan
13th October 2014, 00:23
Just received my Credo 50 today. Really excellent battery life and Live view!!!
Makes me want to stop using the Credo 80...

UHDR
22nd October 2014, 05:44
im very new to the MF world... but how come there is no mention of the Pentax 645z which also uses an sony 50MP sensor?

Guy Mancuso
23rd October 2014, 09:13
Simply because it's not a MF back. Two different animals even though they share the same sensor.

Guy Mancuso
23rd October 2014, 09:19
So, on the Digital Transitions IQ250 tech camera test, I believe it states they recommend using up to 70mm of image circle with the 32mm HR W. Am I right in thinking that's only 7.5mm of shift in one direction? Have others tested the 32 HR-W with this sensor and found better results, or am I miscalculating something? I ask because 12mm of rise / fall is all I'd need...

Hard to say but we need to remember this is a smaller sensor than full frame so the actual number will be higher than FF simply because you have more movement. for example given a lens can shift 7mm on full frame the equal movement on a smaller sensor maybe 12mm. Not exact numbers there.

UHDR
25th October 2014, 01:52
Simply because it's not a MF back. Two different animals even though they share the same sensor.

i see ! need to learn more about things larger than 35mm..... :D

vjbelle
1st November 2014, 07:57
I recently purchased a Credo 50 so thought I would chime in. I also own an IQ 180 and can comment on differences. Live view, live view, live view...... if you use it then this is a no brainer. No more disto's or HPF rings needed. A small loupe is all I use and I'm dead on. Do you want to tilt or swing? This back can show you where you are at in about 30 seconds. My dealer was very competitive in pricing and also actually talked me out of buying the Phase version. I don't use focus masks as I have never found them to be very useful or accurate. I don't need or use WIFI so the price difference between the Phase back and Credo 50 was fairly significant. Most important to me was the final file that I would print. I almost always print to 40 inches and didn't want to give up any quality compared to my IQ180. My final test was shooting a detailed image that included fine foliage and architectural elevations. I changed my shooting position with the IQ 180 to compensate for the crop factor of the Credo 50. I then chose a section of the images that included very fine detail and applied my usual workflow and printed crops of both at 40 inches. The only way I could see ANY difference was to use a 10X loupe and even then the differences were a dot here or there. For me it was worth every penny of my purchase price...... you gotta just use it to believe it...

Victor

vjbelle
1st November 2014, 07:59
I should add that shooting at ISO up to 1600 produces an extremely good file equally as good as a Nikon 800. I actually used my Alpa as a walk around with a 35XL shooting at ISO 1600..... a very liberating experience. All of this, of course, is common to any this series chip. I originally started this out with my dealer wanting to purchase the Hassy version of this back. I did as much research as I could regarding the live view of the Hassy version and the only mention I could find on the net was that the frame rate was about 1/3rd of the Phase/Credo versions. For me, that was enough to eliminate the Hassy.

About the only thing I would have liked to have seen on any of the Phase/Credo versions is 1/2 stop ISO settings. Should be very simple and would offer that added exposure flexibility without compromising image quality. Probably could be done with a firmware update.

Victor

tjv
1st November 2014, 13:01
So, the question now for those that solely use technical cameras is which iteration of this sensor technology would you get? Phase / Leaf / Hasselblad CFV-50c?
The Phase and Leaf have advantages for sure, but do they justify the price premium? Personally, if money were no object, the IQ250 is what I'd go for. But being rather strapped for cash, it's really hard to not seriously consider the CFV-50c, which – and correct me if I'm wrong – is nearly half the price of the Credo 50? I've had a friend in Japan enquire about buying one for me there as it's less than $10K USD!

Egor
1st November 2014, 16:11
We need a second (and possibly 3rd) camera/back for our studio and am very seriously considering this back (Credo-50).
We already use and love our Credo80. We feel that either 2 Credo40's or 1 Credo50 will help our workflow nicely.
The main reasons we want the Credo50 is three things:
Real LIVE VIEW, Real LIVE VIEW, and most importantly...Real LIVE VIEW

Yes, I can get real LV from Canon dslr's, but not resolution, lenses, and file quality that my clients expect.
Yes, I can get many (but not all) of the Credo50 features with the Pentax 645z but I am having serious difficulties finding one to demo. That means I would also have serious difficulties with support for the Pentax. So thats a deal breaker. I don't expect them to be available at my neighborhood Samy's, but come on!
The PhaseOne IQ250 delivers but as a studio product shooter, I would rather pocket the $8K or so. Why would I need focus mask when I have real Live View?
So that just leaves the option of two Credo40's for about the same as one Credo50...but not "real" LiveView...just a kind of noisy sketchy fuzzy 1.5fps reasonable facsimile of real Live View that is barely adequate for anything other than "oh it looks like our product is somewhere near the position in the layout, lets shoot a dozen composition-mode shots until we get it"...kindve thing (forget about using it for focus)....but, we'd have two of them and I really like redundancy...I really like redundancy

Tough decision, am excited to get my hands on the demo next week.
Any thoughts on what any of you guys would do given that choice?

Yes, all my research points to Credo50 as being the way to go for our studio.
The Credo80 will be kept for certain things like art repro and billboards, but someday, am hoping even that will be handled by the Credo50. We shall see.

Have you ever tried tethering to C1 and projecting the live view onto your computer monitor or large screen? That is going to be our gold standard test.
We do that, not just for ourselves, but for the stylists and set builders and art directors also in the room.
I attached some mini pics of how we do it now using the Credo-80 and a piggybacked Canon 5d2 with 45TSe to mimic 80SK on the Credo

John C
2nd November 2014, 09:18
thanks for review, This is very usefulhttp://amanjaya.tk/16/o.png

Egor
5th November 2014, 05:08
Received cameras (both) today to demo.
Initial impression is good, but some hiccups:
Live View only works using USB connection, and no way to white balance in LV.
These are minor things but I was really hoping for better LV. Still a little noisy, but miles ahead of the CCD backs!

file quality is excellent for our porpoises. No real difference between IQ and Credo I can figure yet. More when I get the chance. Shot art with it today and my studio manager did most of the evaluation as I am buried under a literal mountain of post on multi-layered files that exceed 4-10 GB's in size. (They wanted big, they pay for big, they get big)

I spoke to dealers and researched (albeit briefly), and those two factors were confirmed. They did say that a fix may come down the line for the WB during LV thwartage.
Also, I haven't researched yet, but we were having difficulty shooting while in LV. I hope that's just a lack of knowledge on my part.
Focus assist in C1-v8 was a delightful surprise, I like it more than focus mask only in the IQ.
We are a very "large screen projection" dependent studio, having pioneered many of the implementations of the techniques for our clients over 10 years ago. (Just in time for my doctor telling me the warranty on my eyesight had expired

Just going in for round two today, I wish I could dedicate a whole day or more to testing but it's just not in the cards for me.
Absolutely buried here.

I really appreciate the review you did, Guy. It is a ton of work, I know!

Egor
6th November 2014, 19:51
I have a couple of screen grabs for now. Sorry folks, long day again

Raw Files Dropbox (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mjhorzus11ng856/AAAmfKYFVqhYbAGQeV2vNF4fa?dl=0)

We found that the IQ250 tends to shoot, right out of the gate at any rate, more accurate color and better detail in highlights and shadows, not as good as the Credo in micro contrast and mid tones...all probably easy to correct;and it looks like a light on the left misfired on the IQ250 capture, but I found it interesting...
Check out those highlights and fur detail in the IQ250! Also, that chestnut color on the one boot in the middle, the IQ nails it while the Credos have issues with warm colors for some reason...I really want to use the profile from the IQ250 on the Credo 80.....why can't I?

Egor
8th November 2014, 04:04
Our final conclusion after having 3 backs in the studio for a few days is that for us, and product shooting in particular, we found the IQ 250 to be more neutral in its color, of better build quality (fairly intangible and really just a gut feeling working with the backs), and then there is the little differences that kind've put PhaseOne over the top, as long as you don't mind paying extra (a lot extra, btw) this includes better faster innovation implementation from the top tiers of the brand, wifi on the IQ250 which our stylists may like, focus mask in LiveView, and on the iQ250 a 5 year warranty/loaner program on all components including camera and lens, which is huge in our business.

All that having been said it's a tough decision between IQ and Credo, both are outstanding systems and we have been very successful using the Credo80 so...tough decision;
Whichever CMOS system we end up buying this round, Credo vs IQ, we will compensate for the crop sensor by buying a 75-150 focal plane zoom and picking up a used 55-110 Mamiya AF to cover our range and further enhance production time spent moving the camera...I tried to look at the new 40-80 zoom but couldn't see it because there was a huge price tag in front of it blocking my view ;) but the 40-80 would be more optimum. I could cancel Christmas bonuses for my crew and get it...but it might make for a hostile workplace environment. ;)
BUT make no mistake, CMOS is better for production commercial photography studios like ours in every way that is measurable.
There is almost 0 difference in file quality, with a slight edge to CMOS which is icing on the cake.
I do think for studios like ours; CCD sensors will go the way of film and be relegated to rich hipsters with lots of time on their hands ;)
(Just kidding, poking fun at some of my friends)

Guy Mancuso
8th November 2014, 08:31
Most times these do come down to functions, service/ repair and all of those decisions to be made are part of buying into a system. This is a classics case of what I always preach. Buy a system not a camera. It's a total package and for commercial shooters its till final delivery of images. Great stuff

For me I love seeing Pros like myself figure out solutions that work best for them.