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jonoslack
6th November 2019, 05:18
Hi there
Been busy!
Here is my article on the new Leica SL2

The Leica SL2 (Https://www.slack.co.uk/leica-sl2.html)

Enjoy!

JeRuFo
6th November 2019, 06:03
Thank you. It seems to be all I was hoping for. Like you I can't really fault the SL yet, but a bit more resolution is always welcome, as is IBIS and hopefully better AF in low light. I was always impressed at how precise the focus on the SL was, how much resolution it could put in 24 megapixels and how it always just worked as expected. Looks like all those things are still there.

iiiNelson
6th November 2019, 06:11
Hi there
Been busy!
Here is my article on the new Leica SL2

The Leica SL2 (Https://www.slack.co.uk/leica-sl2.html)

Enjoy!

Thanks for sharing. I look forward to reading your take. The YouTube videos that Iíve watched of it look good and it looks to be a worthwhile upgrade for those that want more resolution to get more from their Leica lenses. Colors and IQ look outstanding IMO and it makes me glad theyíre past the look of the early M240 days personally.

Elderly
6th November 2019, 08:12
I personally have ZERO interest in a £5000 camera body :rolleyes: .....

..... but I always very much enjoy looking at your photographs shot in the course of producing your camera 'test' articles :).

Thanks for the images Jono - if not the words ;).

Godfrey
6th November 2019, 08:32
Excellent impressions as always, Jono! Thank you for such an excellent piece and the usual superb photographs. :D

I'm happy with the new control design choices, just like I've been happy since I moved from the SL to the CL with the CL's simpler button arrangement. And for those that want a FF camera with more pixels, 47 MP is a good thing, and IBIS is certainly a nice addition.

That said, I've got my order in for a Hasselblad 907x Special Edition because I want the larger format for wide angle and 50 Mpixel, along with other factors (like it's 'box with a lens on the end' form factor, sharing the digital back with my Hasselblad 500CM and lenses, other accessories, etc...). For my "35mm derivative" camera, the CL does it just right for me: it's so versatile, can be configured from compact to whatever, and works so well with all my lenses there's little need for another 35mm size/shape camera.

Only so much money and time to work with... I'm sure this development of the Leica SL will be popular and a fine tool for Photography!

G

ptomsu
6th November 2019, 12:13
Excellent review as always Jono! Many thanks for this and it is always fun again to read your findings and opinion!

Anyway for me it will not be the camera of choice as I simply do not want to buy back into the Leica (SL) ecosystem again as I can get other FF alternatives for a much lower price and similar quality that either have a similar resolution or even more .....

But definitely so one can get the Leica feeling only with a real Leica :thumbs:

Sanford Lavine
6th November 2019, 19:32
Jono, I think your review was perfect. As a photographer who loves the current SL after switching to it from an M10. I currently only use M lenses and am happy the SL2 plays well with them. The addition of in camera IBIS certainly makes it attractive.

I also love the ergonomics of the SL and find no problem switching between it and my Q. Or, for that matter switching between the SL and my Hasselblad X1D II.

While I could probably adjust to the new buttons I have two questions.

1. Do I really need 47 M Pixels in a Full Format Camera?
2. I noticed the SL2 is larger and heavier than the SL . What effect will that have on carrying the camera and working with it in the field? The X1D has proven to be a great landscape and city carry camera.

Thanks again

ron787
7th November 2019, 07:08
Excellent review as always Jono! Many thanks for this and it is always fun again to read your findings and opinion!

Anyway for me it will not be the camera of choice as I simply do not want to buy back into the Leica (SL) ecosystem again as I can get other FF alternatives for a much lower price and similar quality that either have a similar resolution or even more .....

But definitely so one can get the Leica feeling only with a real Leica :thumbs:

I'd have to agree, the Leica SL2 appears to have incorporated the Panasonic S1R's technology with the addition of Leica's own unique aesthetic and UI twist, which you either adhere to or not. But we all, or at least many of us, had expected this would occur. The S1r can be purchased for considerably less than the SL2, and coupled with L glass—or even Lumix S glass—outputs a remarkably striking image. If I were in the market for a new FF I would find it difficult to justify the Leica premium. In years gone by—circa the film camera era— Leica cameras had been exceptionally durable, but in these times of advancing technology, IMO, durability will have less importance than function. Certainly, if you're out shooting in the Galapagos, or scaling K2 with your camera, you want it to be durable. But there a scarce few modern professional cameras that couldn't fill that bill. And chances are that three or four years down the road GAS will wield its ugly head and a new and improved camera will be on the agenda.

Do I own an S1R? Yes, I do, along with a Fuji GFX100 and many more. But, having been a longterm and stalwart Leica owner/ user I am off that train for good—with the exception of my existing Leica SL glass—and will earmark the $6,000 cost of the SL2 for a new Apple Mac Pro desktop, whenever it is released. But that's my opinion and my way forward, others may feel a burning, inexplicable and uncontrollable desire for the Red Dot.

ptomsu
7th November 2019, 07:44
I'd have to agree, the Leica SL2 appears to have incorporated the Panasonic S1R's technology with the addition of Leica's own unique aesthetic and UI twist, which you either adhere to or not. But we all, or at least many of us, had expected this would occur. The S1r can be purchased for considerably less than the SL2, and coupled with L glassóor even Lumix S glassóoutputs a remarkably striking image. If I were in the market for a new FF I would find it difficult to justify the Leica premium. In years gone byócirca the film camera eraó Leica cameras had been exceptionally durable, but in these times of advancing technology, IMO, durability will have less importance than function. Certainly, if you're out shooting in the Galapagos, or scaling K2 with your camera, you want it to be durable. But there a scarce few modern professional cameras that couldn't fill that bill. And chances are that three or four years down the road GAS will wield its ugly head and a new and improved camera will be on the agenda.

Do I own an S1R? Yes, I do, along with a Fuji GFX100 and many more. But, having been a longterm and stalwart Leica owner/ user I am off that train for goodówith the exception of my existing Leica SL glassóand will earmark the $6,000 cost of the SL2 for a new Apple Mac Pro desktop, whenever it is released. But that's my opinion and my way forward, others may feel a burning, inexplicable and uncontrollable desire for the Red Dot.

If you do not own currently any SL lenses but only a pile of M lenses then it becomes a somewhat difficult decision on today market. I can flange my M lenses also on a Nikon Z7 with pretty excellent results - maybe not as good as on the SL, but hey, then I still can use them in a great and satisfying way without spending additional 3k Euro on just the body. For that I get the stellar 2.8/24-70 Z ans also one or two of the outstanding 1.8 Z mount lenses and call it a day. And still have the advantage of a well functioning Eye AF and in general very excellent PD AF that the SL2 lacks at all.

But for Leica hard core fans I fully get the appeal of this great camera - just not for me and the money I can/want to spend on photography gear.

Still and outstanding camera and I applaud Leica for this 👍

ron787
7th November 2019, 08:39
If you do not own currently any SL lenses but only a pile of M lenses then it becomes a somewhat difficult decision on today market. I can flange my M lenses also on a Nikon Z7 with pretty excellent results - maybe not as good as on the SL, but hey, then I still can use them in a great and satisfying way without spending additional 3k Euro on just the body. For that I get the stellar 2.8/24-70 Z ans also one or two of the outstanding 1.8 Z mount lenses and call it a day. And still have the advantage of a well functioning Eye AF and in general very excellent PD AF that the SL2 lacks at all.

But for Leica hard core fans I fully get the appeal of this great camera - just not for me and the money I can/want to spend on photography gear.

Still and outstanding camera and I applaud Leica for this 👍

In regards to "M" lenses what you say may be true, but we are, in essence, no longer talking about Leica technology. Sadly, the costs of R&D are high, and I presume that part, if not all of the logic behind the creation of the L allianceófrom Leica's standpointó was geared toward this end. As a result, and as I have postulated in my earlier post, the SL2 is in many ways a clone of the S1R, as Leica has undoubtedly licensed Panasonic's technology. IMO, the SL2, with the possible exception of its more effective acceptance of "M" lenses, is no greater than its cousin, the Panasonic S1R and time will tell whether or not it is its equal.

And while we're on the topic of M lenses, why expend all that capital for the purpose of employing manual lenses, when the camera is geared toward its automated features? If an old collection of M lenses were my primary concern, I would buy a used M camera and be done with it. Or, given the retained value of the older lenses, I would trade themóas I had doneófor new SL glass and move on.

JeRuFo
7th November 2019, 11:05
It's most likely a complicated deal that was struck at the start of the L-mount alliance. It is hard to tell for bystanders who contributes what exactly. But that's fine if it means we get to choose from more competitive camera systems. How the camera came about is a business decision on Leica's part. All we can do is judge its value. If you want to dismiss it on their bussiness affiliations, that is your prerogative (but it is unnecessary to dismiss SL users as gullible) If the new SL2 is as good a camera as the SL is, then I would happily pay that premium to get a camera that works in what I find to be a pleasant way. To me that is like using better film for certain shots. Yes it costs twice as much, but if it gives me the colors or tonal range that I'm after it is much better than faffing about for hours afterwards getting it all just right. But then, I don't buy and use as many camera systems simultaneously. I usually just have one for maximum resolution and one for social events and everyday use.

There is hardly a camera manufacturer left that does it all on its own. Especially smaller ones usually specialise in one area. And especially sensors are often sourced from others.

iiiNelson
7th November 2019, 11:31
If you do not own currently any SL lenses but only a pile of M lenses then it becomes a somewhat difficult decision on today market. I can flange my M lenses also on a Nikon Z7 with pretty excellent results - maybe not as good as on the SL, but hey, then I still can use them in a great and satisfying way without spending additional 3k Euro on just the body. For that I get the stellar 2.8/24-70 Z ans also one or two of the outstanding 1.8 Z mount lenses and call it a day. And still have the advantage of a well functioning Eye AF and in general very excellent PD AF that the SL2 lacks at all.

But for Leica hard core fans I fully get the appeal of this great camera - just not for me and the money I can/want to spend on photography gear.

Still and outstanding camera and I applaud Leica for this 👍

M lenses, as great as they are, arenít the pinnacle of lens design they once were. The SL lenses are better (technically anyway) by every sense of the measure and many competitors have exceeded Leica or gotten close enough to lens design that itíll likely take pixel peeping to tell the difference. In any case I think much of the debate is purely for the photographers enjoyment so to that I say use what makes you happy and donít look back. Those M lenses could easily fund your next kit should you choose to sell.

MGrayson
7th November 2019, 12:37
I'd have to agree, the Leica SL2 appears to have incorporated the Panasonic S1R's technology with the addition of Leica's own unique aesthetic and UI twist, which you either adhere to or not. But we all, or at least many of us, had expected this would occur. The S1r can be purchased for considerably less than the SL2, and coupled with L glass—or even Lumix S glass—outputs a remarkably striking image. If I were in the market for a new FF I would find it difficult to justify the Leica premium. In years gone by—circa the film camera era— Leica cameras had been exceptionally durable, but in these times of advancing technology, IMO, durability will have less importance than function. Certainly, if you're out shooting in the Galapagos, or scaling K2 with your camera, you want it to be durable. But there a scarce few modern professional cameras that couldn't fill that bill. And chances are that three or four years down the road GAS will wield its ugly head and a new and improved camera will be on the agenda.

Do I own an S1R? Yes, I do, along with a Fuji GFX100 and many more. But, having been a longterm and stalwart Leica owner/ user I am off that train for good—with the exception of my existing Leica SL glass—and will earmark the $6,000 cost of the SL2 for a new Apple Mac Pro desktop, whenever it is released. But that's my opinion and my way forward, others may feel a burning, inexplicable and uncontrollable desire for the Red Dot.

I am a fan of both Leica and Apple products. Users of either one are regularly lambasted for their poor financial judgement. "I can get better tools for half the price if I do X, Y and Z! You must love paying up for the Red Dot/Apple Logo" is the common refrain. Users of both company's products defend their choices with "I use what I like using. It works for me, so why should you care?"

As you are considering the new Mac Pro - a wonderful machine receiving a torrent of silly disapprobation - I find your use of "inexplicable", well, inexplicable.

Matt

ron787
7th November 2019, 13:26
I am a fan of both Leica and Apple products. Users of either one are regularly lambasted for their poor financial judgement. "I can get better tools for half the price if I do X, Y and Z! You must love paying up for the Red Dot/Apple Logo" is the common refrain. Users of both company's products defend their choices with "I use what I like using. It works for me, so why should you care?"

As you are considering the new Mac Pro - a wonderful machine receiving a torrent of silly disapprobation - I find your use of "inexplicable", well, inexplicable.

Matt
It's odd that you found it necessary to hone in on one word, but I can tell you that from my years of owning Leica cameras going back to the early 1970's, that when asked why I chose to pay a premium for that particular brand, my response would be that aside from the quality of the body and lenses, there was a certain, inexplicable sense of pleasure that I received from ownership. I find that many of today's owner/users, and prospective owner/users, are faced with the same predicament.

As for the Apple Mac Pro, yes, I am considering its purchase. I am currently using two, ten year old Mac Pro towers that cannot be upgraded to the latest OS. I have tried Windows machines in the past, and still have one that I have repurposed, but in my experience the Windows OS is unreliable and somewhat dodgy, The Apple OS, on the other hand, has been rock solid for the most part.

MGrayson
7th November 2019, 13:39
It's odd that you found it necessary to hone in on one word, but I can tell you that from my years of owning Leica cameras going back to the early 1970's, that when asked why I chose to pay a premium for that particular brand, my response would be that aside from the quality of the body and lenses, there was a certain, inexplicable sense of pleasure that I received from ownership. I find that many of today's owner/users, and prospective owner/users, are faced with the same predicament.

As for the Apple Mac Pro, yes, I am considering its purchase. I am currently using two, ten year old Mac Pro towers that cannot be upgraded to the latest OS. I have tried Windows machines in the past, and still have one that I have repurposed, but in my experience the Windows OS is unreliable and somewhat dodgy, The Apple OS, on the other hand, has been rock solid for the most part.

Apologies. I clearly misunderstood your meaning in the last sentence. It read to me as exactly the dismissive criticism usually leveled at Leica users, which I found odd coming from an Apple user. If you meant it as "one uses what one likes, and has no need to explain it, even to oneself", then I understand and completely agree.

Matt

ron787
7th November 2019, 13:43
It's most likely a complicated deal that was struck at the start of the L-mount alliance. It is hard to tell for bystanders who contributes what exactly. But that's fine if it means we get to choose from more competitive camera systems. How the camera came about is a business decision on Leica's part. All we can do is judge its value. If you want to dismiss it on their bussiness affiliations, that is your prerogative (but it is unnecessary to dismiss SL users as gullible) If the new SL2 is as good a camera as the SL is, then I would happily pay that premium to get a camera that works in what I find to be a pleasant way. To me that is like using better film for certain shots. Yes it costs twice as much, but if it gives me the colors or tonal range that I'm after it is much better than faffing about for hours afterwards getting it all just right. But then, I don't buy and use as many camera systems simultaneously. I usually just have one for maximum resolution and one for social events and everyday use.

There is hardly a camera manufacturer left that does it all on its own. Especially smaller ones usually specialise in one area. And especially sensors are often sourced from others.

Not sure whose post you are responding to, but if it was mine, I wonder how in the world you had conjured the word, or even the sentiment of "gullible." That was not the intent of the post, and that word, nor its sentiment appeared anywhere within its content.

And by SL color are you referring to the jpg's? Because, as a prior SL owner/user I found nothing special, color wise, about the raw images, other the fact that they could be properly adjusted in post.

In summary, I suspect that you'd overlooked the intent of the post, which was to imply that the SL2 likely received a significant portion of its DNA from Panasonic, and that the "L" Alliance allowed for that scenario to take place.

ron787
7th November 2019, 13:46
Apologies. I clearly misunderstood your meaning in the last sentence. It read to me as exactly the dismissive criticism usually leveled at Leica users, which I found odd coming from an Apple user. If you meant it as "one uses what one likes, and has no need to explain it, even to oneself", then I understand and completely agree.

Matt
"If you meant it as "one uses what one likes, and has no need to explain it, even to oneself", then I understand and completely agree."

Yes, my sentiments exactly!

iiiNelson
7th November 2019, 14:36
Users of both company's products defend their choices with "I use what I like using. It works for me, so why should you care?"

Matt

Matt, that's probably true of many products and I suspect that a lot is derived from the opinions of the internet. Some is shaped by people's personal experiences which can be all over the place... and I suspect much is just simple misunderstanding which leads to people feeling somewhat defensive (which of course is just human).

I remember hearing and reading stuff when I was a Leica shooter... but then I hear just as much being a Sony shooter. Most of what I heard as a Micro 4/3 shooter was positive except from many DSLR shooters that constantly stated that mirrorless wasn't going to overtake DSLR's ever... the usual crap. When I shot Canon there was the Chevy vs. Ford style arguments but it really wasn't as polarizing as the internet wasn't as hostile a place then from my experience.

I still hear anti-Apple talk but it's mostly from Windows and Android users... but the irony is that Apple users don't usually remotely care about what's happening with either of those platforms which says a lot.

Speedgraphic
7th November 2019, 18:14
It's probably pointless to mention, as I believe others have, that you can buy this camera new or used now, under the name S1R. I suspected that Panasonic is making these new cameras for Leica. It makes sense considering their previous attempts at AF digitals were a parade of horribles. I wonder if we'll get a Lumix branded Q?

Leica people will 'have' to buy Leica. I'm happy to rock the Panasonic. I continue to be impressed with this camera, it's a real pleasure to use. I scanned about 10 8x10 negatives with it today in pixel shift mode. The results are pretty stunning.

Jorgen Udvang
7th November 2019, 19:47
Mr. McCurry seems to have gotten onboard too:

https://vimeo.com/368003013

https://uk.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-SL/Leica-SL2/Stories/Steve-McCurry

Godfrey
8th November 2019, 05:48
I'm out of this ball game for the present, as I said before, but I find this constant "well I can get the same thing for less" business rather noisome. Do all of you buy the cheapest possible economy car rather than the nicer model Chevy, Volvo, Mercedes, Porsche, or whatever because "well, it can get me to the grocery store just was well and it costs less!" ??

I've seen the Panasonic S1R and looking through Jono's review, the SL2 is quite a lot different in many ways, in analogous fashion to buying a nice upper-range car is to that low priced economy special. Is buying something ALWAYS going to be metered for good and bad based entirely on its price? They both get mostly the same functions/job done, they both should last a good long while if you don't automatically queue up for another round of GAS on The Hamster Wheel of Progress, etc etc.

One perhaps minor difference between them is that I've always gotten much better customer service out of Leica then I have out of Panasonic service (or Sony service for that matter). I find this to be true despite the continual bellyaching I hear about Leica service.

Eh? I'm out of this particular game at present, but I'm not giving up my collection of Leica lenses both M and R, film bodies both M and R, or my CL. In the future, who knows? I might well want another M or SLx model. At present I'm very content with what I have, having tried many of the alternative brands, and wouldn't switch back regardless of the cost difference. New lenses might be better, but who cares if you're already happy with what you have?

And whether Panasonic manufactures the SL2 or Leica manufactures it ... as long as the products are substantively different in feel and use, it is whatever brand it carries on the name plate to me.

The point is whether what you have makes the photographs you want to make, after all.
I'll go back to shooting with my Minox EC submini now... my current caprice and affliction. :D

G

Joe Colson
8th November 2019, 10:04
I suspected that Panasonic is making these new cameras for Leica.

Your suspicions are incorrect. Leica and Panasonic share components and intellectual property, but the SL2 is made in Germany by Leica employees at a Leica factory. In today's world, that doesn't make a huge difference. Apple, a Cupertino, CA company, makes the iPhone in China and sources components from other companies around the globe. Sharing IP and components is necessary in a global economy. Automobile manufacturers learned that lesson years ago. The "L-mount Alliance" shares more than the mount specifications.

I found this interesting:

https://leicarumors.com/2019/11/08/the-making-of-the-leica-sl2-camera-in-pictures.aspx/

Joe

iiiNelson
8th November 2019, 10:23
I'm out of this ball game for the present, as I said before, but I find this constant "well I can get the same thing for less" business rather noisome. Do all of you buy the cheapest possible economy car rather than the nicer model Chevy, Volvo, Mercedes, Porsche, or whatever because "well, it can get me to the grocery store just was well and it costs less!" ??

I've seen the Panasonic S1R and looking through Jono's review, the SL2 is quite a lot different in many ways, in analogous fashion to buying a nice upper-range car is to that low priced economy special. Is buying something ALWAYS going to be metered for good and bad based entirely on its price? They both get mostly the same functions/job done, they both should last a good long while if you don't automatically queue up for another round of GAS on The Hamster Wheel of Progress, etc etc.

One perhaps minor difference between them is that I've always gotten much better customer service out of Leica then I have out of Panasonic service (or Sony service for that matter). I find this to be true despite the continual bellyaching I hear about Leica service.

Eh? I'm out of this particular game at present, but I'm not giving up my collection of Leica lenses both M and R, film bodies both M and R, or my CL. In the future, who knows? I might well want another M or SLx model. At present I'm very content with what I have, having tried many of the alternative brands, and wouldn't switch back regardless of the cost difference. New lenses might be better, but who cares if you're already happy with what you have?

And whether Panasonic manufactures the SL2 or Leica manufactures it ... as long as the products are substantively different in feel and use, it is whatever brand it carries on the name plate to me.

The point is whether what you have makes the photographs you want to make, after all.
I'll go back to shooting with my Minox EC submini now... my current caprice and affliction. :D

G

To answer your question - yes, most people make assessments and purchasing choices based on perceived value and individual budget. Itís a fact of life for MOST people in the world. Iíd hardly call a nearly $4,000 camera (Panasonic S1R) cheap or a value model. Itís actually towards the higher end in its class so Iím reality itís like comparing something like a luxury Asian car to a luxury German car in this case... and Iím sure there are those people that cross shop Lexus/Acura/Infiniti/Genesis to the Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Porsche in this particular example.

I agree that it doesnít fully ďmatterĒ who makes what ultimately to everyone but SOME informed customers MAY want to know. Yes there are those that prefer dealing with one company over another (and I can understand that) but depending on where you live warranty can be very different. I donít know that anyone suggested a productís quality based upon price alone here. I just didnít read anything that way myself.

As stated in the past, I think most people feel itís wonderful that you received satisfactory service from Leica... I have too... but I have from Sony as well. I donít invalidate those that havenít received the same level of support and people have shared their personal trials in detail... I personally feel for those people. Itís a bigger insult to injury if you have 10ís of thousands of dollars into your photography kit IMO... and thatís where price (logically) does make people feel a certain way. Itís one thing if your Digital Rebel or entry level Mirrorless camera breaks after a few years of use... itís another when your $6k+ camera does and they ask for $3k to repair it after not receiving any updates on the status of the repair for months.

In the end, we donít all have to agree with one another. We all have reasoning to choose what we do. The SL2 is the second Leica product that Iíve generally have had any semblance of interest in since I divested myself from their products... with the M10 family being the only other product that has interested me from them. Iím happy that theyíre being a bit more aggressive and I have an extremely positive outlook of the L-Mount alliance though I am somewhat concerned about how well they may or may not be doing commercially as cost is a factor for many in a shrinking market. Iím seriously considering the 35 APO-Cron to pair with a S1R (because I donít own any M lenses except the CV 35/1.2 v2) and I prefer the Panasonic body over the Leica one in many ways due to the tilting screen and direct discrete controls. The lack of a tilting screen is a bit of a missed opportunity for me personally with the SL2 but I still think itís a great offering for those that care about a ďsimplifiedĒ Leica menu/layout.

JeRuFo
8th November 2019, 11:43
Not sure whose post you are responding to, but if it was mine, I wonder how in the world you had conjured the word, or even the sentiment of "gullible." That was not the intent of the post, and that word, nor its sentiment appeared anywhere within its content.

And by SL color are you referring to the jpg's? Because, as a prior SL owner/user I found nothing special, color wise, about the raw images, other the fact that they could be properly adjusted in post.

In summary, I suspect that you'd overlooked the intent of the post, which was to imply that the SL2 likely received a significant portion of its DNA from Panasonic, and that the "L" Alliance allowed for that scenario to take place.

Sorry, yes, I read your post in the same way Matt seems to have done and share both your sentiment. I think the mistake was a combination of you explaining why you use SL lenses but not the cameras and the aforementioned explaining that people seem to expect when you use certain brands (no doubt helped by the fact that the average Leica owner is about as shy about their choices as the average vegan.)

I like the SL raws because they have a tendency to keep shadow information without brightening the shadows too much, which can make images look odd when there is as much saturation as there is in the SL files. I like it when that part comes easy. The only thing to look out for is to not make the image too moody or contrasty.
I found the colors to be easy to adjust too, with only the greens needing special attention, they can get a little much.

Speedgraphic
8th November 2019, 11:52
Your suspicions are incorrect. Leica and Panasonic share components and intellectual property, but the SL2 is made in Germany by Leica employees at a Leica factory. In today's world, that doesn't make a huge difference. Apple, a Cupertino, CA company, makes the iPhone in China and sources components from other companies around the globe. Sharing IP and components is necessary in a global economy. Automobile manufacturers learned that lesson years ago. The "L-mount Alliance" shares more than the mount specifications.

I found this interesting:

https://leicarumors.com/2019/11/08/the-making-of-the-leica-sl2-camera-in-pictures.aspx/

Joe

I see pictures of employees putting the Leica skin on what I'm sure is a mostly finished camera from Panasonic. I don't care where they make them, it's just up to the user in the end if that skin in worth $4000 bucks or more.

jonoslack
8th November 2019, 14:45
I personally have ZERO interest in a £5000 camera body :rolleyes: .....

..... but I always very much enjoy looking at your photographs shot in the course of producing your camera 'test' articles :).

Thanks for the images Jono - if not the words ;).

Hi Ian
Thank You! Itís the snaps that matter for me as well!

All the best
Jono

jonoslack
8th November 2019, 14:53
In regards to "M" lenses what you say may be true, but we are, in essence, no longer talking about Leica technology. Sadly, the costs of R&D are high, and I presume that part, if not all of the logic behind the creation of the L allianceófrom Leica's standpointó was geared toward this end. As a result, and as I have postulated in my earlier post, the SL2 is in many ways a clone of the S1R, as Leica has undoubtedly licensed Panasonic's technology. IMO, the SL2, with the possible exception of its more effective acceptance of "M" lenses, is no greater than its cousin, the Panasonic S1R and time will tell whether or not it is its equal.

And while we're on the topic of M lenses, why expend all that capital for the purpose of employing manual lenses, when the camera is geared toward its automated features? If an old collection of M lenses were my primary concern, I would buy a used M camera and be done with it. Or, given the retained value of the older lenses, I would trade themóas I had doneófor new SL glass and move on.

Hi There Ron
I was amused recently when the guy who came to put the Tracker in our Defender said how much he enjoyed pointing out the Ford parts in Ferraris to their owners.

But the inter-relationship between companies is complex - remember that the SL (4 years ago) has much in common with the modern camera - Iím sure that itís a cross-fertilisation between Leica and Panasonic - but it might be more realistic to say that the S1 is a Ďcloneí of the SL - but of course, neither is the case. The SL2 has a different processor, different sensor cover, different de-mosaicing algorithms, file structure, menu system (blah blah blah).

And whilst weíre on the topic of M lenses - lots of people (including me) love them as they are small and really good. The ambient light sensor on the front of the SL2 (and SL and M10 and M240) means that the camera can estimate (rather well) the aperture used on the purely mechanical M lenses and apply vignetting and colour cast correction (which is not possible otherwise) - and focusing them on an SL is a thing of joy and wonder (especially if youíre an old fool with bad eyesight!).

All the best
Jono

jonoslack
8th November 2019, 15:03
It's probably pointless to mention, as I believe others have, that you can buy this camera new or used now, under the name S1R. I suspected that Panasonic is making these new cameras for Leica. It makes sense considering their previous attempts at AF digitals were a parade of horribles. I wonder if we'll get a Lumix branded Q?

Leica people will 'have' to buy Leica. I'm happy to rock the Panasonic. I continue to be impressed with this camera, it's a real pleasure to use. I scanned about 10 8x10 negatives with it today in pixel shift mode. The results are pretty stunning.

Well
Nothing wrong with the S1R (great camera), and Iím pretty sure that quite a lot of the SL2 (and probably the SL as well) comes from Panasonic (remember that Nikon mostly use Sony sensors!). Iíd guess that the IBIS, sensor and AF come principally from Panasonic (but certainly with variations). The body / processor / demosaic / firmware etc. all seems to be from Leica, and the video is pretty much up with the S1H and far ahead of the S1R. But I also imagine that quite a lot of you S1R comes from Leica - theyíve clearly been working together on this project since the original ideas on the SL (which was before the Sony A7 came out, 7 or 8 years ago).

All the best
Jono

ron787
8th November 2019, 15:43
Deleted.

Robert Campbell
9th November 2019, 03:10
Hi There Ron
I was amused recently when the guy who came to put the Tracker in our Defender said how much he enjoyed pointing out the Ford parts in Ferraris to their owners.

But the inter-relationship between companies is complex - remember that the SL (4 years ago) has much in common with the modern camera - Iím sure that itís a cross-fertilisation between Leica and Panasonic - but it might be more realistic to say that the S1 is a Ďcloneí of the SL - but of course, neither is the case. The SL2 has a different processor, different sensor cover, different de-mosaicing algorithms, file structure, menu system (blah blah blah).

...

All the best
Jono

IIRC, Ford own Ferrari, so that's not too surprising.

If you want a "pure" car you'd need to go back to the early/mid 1930s. Then, Rolls-Royce made practically all the components for their cars, though they only sold the chassis; the bodyword was 'outsourced'. And "practically all" means the dynamos, starters, carburetors, wiring, switches...they didn't make the sparking plugs though.

I'm not so certain about cameras, but I'd guess that Leica made pretty much everything up to the 1950s and 60s. The original Leicaflex was pure Leica, the R3 etc were Minolta.

So there's nothing really new about collaboration, cross-fertilisation or whatever. It seems sensible for a company to work to its strengths, and to cooperate with others in areas where they are weak.

For the SL2, I might hazard a guess that the IBIS comes from Panasonic; indeed, it may have been an "afterthought", for the original SL zooms have OIS, a Leica strength, while the primes don't. (And IBIS has the advantage that you only have to pay for it once.)

So, I'm not really upset about Leica using technology from other companies; why should Leica re-invent the wheel? The design, the essence remains Leica.

While the "final assembly" of the SL2 and its lenses happens in Germany, so they have the "Made in Germany" label indicating, IIRC, that more than 55% is German, they are happy to outsource the manufacture of CL lenses to Japan.

ron787
9th November 2019, 06:35
IIRC, Ford own Ferrari, so that's not too surprising.

If you want a "pure" car you'd need to go back to the early/mid 1930s. Then, Rolls-Royce made practically all the components for their cars, though they only sold the chassis; the bodyword was 'outsourced'. And "practically all" means the dynamos, starters, carburetors, wiring, switches...they didn't make the sparking plugs though.

I'm not so certain about cameras, but I'd guess that Leica made pretty much everything up to the 1950s and 60s. The original Leicaflex was pure Leica, the R3 etc were Minolta.

So there's nothing really new about collaboration, cross-fertilisation or whatever. It seems sensible for a company to work to its strengths, and to cooperate with others in areas where they are weak.

For the SL2, I might hazard a guess that the IBIS comes from Panasonic; indeed, it may have been an "afterthought", for the original SL zooms have OIS, a Leica strength, while the primes don't. (And IBIS has the advantage that you only have to pay for it once.)

So, I'm not really upset about Leica using technology from other companies; why should Leica re-invent the wheel? The design, the essence remains Leica.

While the "final assembly" of the SL2 and its lenses happens in Germany, so they have the "Made in Germany" label indicating, IIRC, that more than 55% is German, they are happy to outsource the manufacture of CL lenses to Japan.

The ďL AllianceĒ is and was about collaboration, and you can bet that it is and was not limited to lenses. Therefore, it would be unthinkable to assume that the involved companies would not be sharing technology. The extent to which such sharing occurs can, however, be debated. That Leica has injected its own philosophical approach into the functional design of the SL2 is obvious, as demonstrated by the button array, or lack thereof, and its UI and perhaps more.
The video centric offerings accompanying the SL2 likely could have been matched by Panasonic in their S1r, but it doesnít take a great deal of business acumen to understand the economic benefit of having two, vs one salable product, as in the S1r/S1H.

In any event, I find this, mine is bigger, better, smaller, lighter, less noisy, higher IQ, etc, repartee quite tiresome, and I am signing off of this topic. And while Iíve moved on to MF, I will continue to use and enjoy my S1R.
Best regards to all.
Ron

Elderly
9th November 2019, 07:58
IIRC, Ford own Ferrari, so that's not too surprising.



Do they ??????

Ferrari is a public company - with Exor, the holding company of the Agnelli family being the largest shareholder.

There were definitely Ford parts used in the Aston Martin DB7, and maybe Fiat parts used in Ferraris of a certain era.

:OT: I went to a preview of Le Mans 66; the Ford v. Ferrari saga starting with Ford attempting to buy Ferrari.
My OPINION ....... don't bother to spend 150 minutes of your life watching it :thumbdown:.

ron787
9th November 2019, 10:12
Do they ??????

Ferrari is a public company - with Exor, the holding company of the Agnelli family being the largest shareholder.

There were definitely Ford parts used in the Aston Martin DB7, and maybe Fiat parts used in Ferraris of a certain era.

:OT: I went to a preview of Le Mans 66; the Ford v. Ferrari saga starting with Ford attempting to buy Ferrari.
My OPINION ....... don't bother to spend 150 minutes of your life watching it :thumbdown:.

And today's Rolls Royce is largely BMW. The Ghost, I've been informed, is built on the frame of a BMW 7, and its infotainment center is, at the very least, identical to that of the BMW 7. How do I know? Until recently, I'd owned both of them and they'd sat side by side in my garage. Bentley, on the other hand, and particularly the Flying Spur, until its most recent iteration, has maintained its antiquated electronics. I own a 2017 Flying Spur, its infotainment center is awful, not even as good as the least costly BMW.

I've gone a tad sideways in re the topic at hand, but you're correct in your assertion regarding the sharing of parts, technology, etc., in many industries, either currently or in the future.

Godfrey
9th November 2019, 17:41
I don't know the suggested Ford ownership of Ferrari has to do with the relationship between Leica and Panasonic, but ...

FIAT bought 50 percent interest in Ferrari in 1969. When Enzo Ferrari died in 1988, FIAT acquired 80 or 90 percent. In 2016 Ferrari S.p.A. was formed as a common stock corporation and split from FIAT-Chrysler, now under the parent firm EXOR although large blocks of the stock are held by various former FIAT-Chrysler stockholders. I think Piero Ferrari holds a 10% block.

Ford never had any ownership of Ferrari to the best of my knowledge. That doesn't say that Ferrari might have used some Ford components at some point or another, since Ford is an producer of way more than just automobiles and trucks. I worked with a team that had a lot of dealings with Ford Aerospace division, for instance, when I worked at the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

G

retow
9th November 2019, 18:48
There ain't no manufacturers of complex products fully backwards integrated anymore. Maybe it's time for some relaxant? But bear in mind, the API (active pharmaceutical ingredient) of US/EU or whatever branded pharmaceutical might very well be made in India or China.:ROTFL:

Robert Campbell
10th November 2019, 01:53
And today's Rolls Royce is largely BMW. The Ghost, I've been informed, is built on the frame of a BMW 7, and its infotainment center is, at the very least, identical to that of the BMW 7. How do I know? Until recently, I'd owned both of them and they'd sat side by side in my garage. Bentley, on the other hand, and particularly the Flying Spur, until its most recent iteration, has maintained its antiquated electronics. I own a 2017 Flying Spur, its infotainment center is awful, not even as good as the least costly BMW.

I've gone a tad sideways in re the topic at hand, but you're correct in your assertion regarding the sharing of parts, technology, etc., in many industries, either currently or in the future.

Today's R-R is a BMW with added bling.

Most of today's Bentleys are VW/Audis with added bling, though there is still a V8 model available.

Neither has much residue, apart from the names, from former models.

ron787
10th November 2019, 07:21
Today's R-R is a BMW with added bling.

Most of today's Bentleys are VW/Audis with added bling, though there is still a V8 model available.

Neither has much residue, apart from the names, from former models.

I agree and, with that in mind, I've had enough of RR/Bentley's Kool Aid and will be selling my Flying Spur at year's end ... the new Bentley Flying Spur is, IMO, ugly.

Paratom
10th November 2019, 08:46
would be cool if they all took the l-mount allience more serious. Like making the 35 SL lens focus on Panasonic camera without making strange noise, or make the S-SL-lens adapter work with AF on the Panasonic body, I also hear some Sigma lenses to be very loud in C-AF on the Pana.

iiiNelson
10th November 2019, 12:15
would be cool if they all took the l-mount allience more serious. Like making the 35 SL lens focus on Panasonic camera without making strange noise, or make the S-SL-lens adapter work with AF on the Panasonic body, I also hear some Sigma lenses to be very loud in C-AF on the Pana.

In regards to the Sigma issues Iíve read thatís mostly an issue with the L-Mount lenses that are based on DSLR designs. I assume that the other stuff could be fixed through firmware or perhaps Panasonic is using a different drive motor in the camerawhich causes the SL lenses to make noise... or perhaps the issue is with Leicaís mechanical design. I have no idea though.

PeterA
10th November 2019, 14:48
Nice review Jono - thanks.

A lot of people are 'guilty' of missing the whole point of using a Leica anything- it isn't about better photos - (although the tech specs of any SL lens made are above anyone else's offerings so at least they aren't an excuse for poor work) it is about the pure joy of holding stuff in hand that just feels really good.

I'll buy stuff that is the best 'tool' for a job - despite not particularly 'liking' using it if the actual output is what I need/want...eg GFX100 - but I get a real joy out of shooting with my Leica gear that is a unique attribute and part of the whole making photograph experience.

This view is easily criticized of course - because my pleasure or shooting experience can't be quantified - it is a personal preference, and many of the Leica shooters I know share it.

This SL2 will no doubt find its way into my bag soon enough - I wont be making any videos with it, i wont be trying to shoot sports or wildlife and have never in my whole photographic life ever made a 10 frame per second or 20 frame per second burst on any camera or consciously used ISO greater than 3200 - and even that once in a blue moon - so I think a lot of the technical capabilities presented are lost on me - except i will be able to use IBIS and the amenity of 47 megapixels - mated to some lovely Leica glass - at least I'll look the part of someone who has half a clue!

bab
10th November 2019, 15:11
I have not been paid by Leica or wined and dined, flown to Germany or given any of the other goodies. I find this statement by Jono to leave me wondering EXACTLY what he means, (In more general terms I’ve found that the AF is very fast, and more importantly is very accurate, whichever mode you choose. It also works very well with the Panasonic and Sigma lenses I’ve tested with the SL2.) So you mean AF is very fast and accurate compared to what, Sony AF?..the reason I mention this is because no other reviews I’ve heard stated this and to me great to exceptionally good AF with a beast like this is mandatory.

MGrayson
10th November 2019, 16:15
I have not been paid by Leica or wined and dined, flown to Germany or given any of the other goodies. I find this statement by Jono to leave me wondering EXACTLY what he means, (In more general terms I’ve found that the AF is very fast, and more importantly is very accurate, whichever mode you choose. It also works very well with the Panasonic and Sigma lenses I’ve tested with the SL2.) So you mean AF is very fast and accurate compared to what, Sony AF?..the reason I mention this is because no other reviews I’ve heard stated this and to me great to exceptionally good AF with a beast like this is mandatory.

How about:

Jono,

Have you compared the SL2 AF with other FF mirrorless like the Sony A7 or Nikon Z?

Thanks,



Might be worth a shot. :grin:

iiiNelson
10th November 2019, 16:47
I have not been paid by Leica or wined and dined, flown to Germany or given any of the other goodies. I find this statement by Jono to leave me wondering EXACTLY what he means, (In more general terms Iíve found that the AF is very fast, and more importantly is very accurate, whichever mode you choose. It also works very well with the Panasonic and Sigma lenses Iíve tested with the SL2.) So you mean AF is very fast and accurate compared to what, Sony AF?..the reason I mention this is because no other reviews Iíve heard stated this and to me great to exceptionally good AF with a beast like this is mandatory.

There are videos comparing the S1/S1R Autofocus for photography to the Sony and Nikon in single point AF. In this mode (going by Panasonic performance thatís likely comparable to the performance to the SL2... though most reviews state the Panasonic is a bit better with their firmware updates) Iíd assume the speed in comparable and more than sufficient for most.

Where CDAF based systems typically ďfailĒ is in continuous AF/tracking. If this isnít important to you then AF performance is likely going to be a non-issue. If it is then Iíd gather that youíd find better performance in a camera that employs some form of hybrid (read: utilizing both PDAF and CDAF) AF system. I know you asked Jono this question but this is likely the most informed answer that someone can provide until the computing power and mathematical algorithm catches up in DFD/CDAF to what a PDAF based hybrid system can provide a user today. Even still, companies are constantly working to improve performance but there are some limitations right now.

That being said there are other benefits to the L-amount system but itís somewhat unreasonable (price aside) to expect these cameras to stand up to an A9 (or even a A7III) if you require reliable continuous AF. Thatís not what theyíre designed for or what they can currently provide to an end user. Doesnít make them bad but it does highlight an area itís not strongly suited for.

DougDolde
10th November 2019, 19:06
Dante has come to full frame. I shall not want.

jonoslack
11th November 2019, 00:32
I have not been paid by Leica or wined and dined, flown to Germany or given any of the other goodies. I find this statement by Jono to leave me wondering EXACTLY what he means, (In more general terms I’ve found that the AF is very fast, and more importantly is very accurate, whichever mode you choose. It also works very well with the Panasonic and Sigma lenses I’ve tested with the SL2.) So you mean AF is very fast and accurate compared to what, Sony AF?..the reason I mention this is because no other reviews I’ve heard stated this and to me great to exceptionally good AF with a beast like this is mandatory.


Hi There Bab.
I haven't compared it to the Sony or Nikon AF (I do have a Fuji X-T3), and I imagine that for continuous focus at least it isn't as good (no phase detect) - what I mean exactly is what I said - that I found it to be fast and accurate whichever mode I chose. both with the Panasonic 70-200 and the Sigma 14-24 and the Leica lenses I have on hand. I don't shoot sport or motocross however which is why I don't go into great detail about it.

By the way, Leica have never paid me or flown me to Germany (although I've certainly had a dinner or two when I've been out there). I do a lot of testing work for them (and it is a lot of work), and they do look after me, but there isn't a formal arrangement - but I say this in all the reviews.

Mind you - perfectly reasonable of you to bring it up as a means of questioning my believability.

all the best

jonoslack
11th November 2019, 00:34
There are videos comparing the S1/S1R Autofocus for photography to the Sony and Nikon in single point AF. In this mode (going by Panasonic performance thatís likely comparable to the performance to the SL2... though most reviews state the Panasonic is a bit better with their firmware updates) Iíd assume the speed in comparable and more than sufficient for most.

Where CDAF based systems typically ďfailĒ is in continuous AF/tracking. If this isnít important to you then AF performance is likely going to be a non-issue. If it is then Iíd gather that youíd find better performance in a camera that employs some form of hybrid (read: utilizing both PDAF and CDAF) AF system. I know you asked Jono this question but this is likely the most informed answer that someone can provide until the computing power and mathematical algorithm catches up in DFD/CDAF to what a PDAF based hybrid system can provide a user today. Even still, companies are constantly working to improve performance but there are some limitations right now.

That being said there are other benefits to the L-amount system but itís somewhat unreasonable (price aside) to expect these cameras to stand up to an A9 (or even a A7III) if you require reliable continuous AF. Thatís not what theyíre designed for or what they can currently provide to an end user. Doesnít make them bad but it does highlight an area itís not strongly suited for.

Thank you - you put that very well
best
Jono

ericborgstrom
11th November 2019, 06:40
The several pictures taken with the Sigma Art 14-24 f2.8 renders nicely with smooth bokeh. An alternative to the
SUPER-VARIO-ELMAR-SL 16Ė35 f/3.5Ė4.5 ASPH.

iiiNelson
11th November 2019, 07:02
Thank you - you put that very well
best
Jono

No worries Iíve been interested in the L-Mount FF cameras for myself. Right now Iíve surmised thatís I canít fully trust them yet for pro work that I do (much of it relies on lowlight continuous AF performance). I do think that I may want the Panasonic body for personal work because Iíve spent 5 years looking for a suitable replacement to my favorite 35mm ever (35/2 M Summicron). The 35/1.4 Sony Zeiss is excellent (albeit on the large side) but not quite to the level of the ĎCron. I like much about the SL2 but I refuse to own a non-film camera without a tilting/articulating screen.

jonoslack
11th November 2019, 12:48
How about:

Jono,

Have you compared the SL2 AF with other FF mirrorless like the Sony A7 or Nikon Z?

Thanks,



Might be worth a shot. :grin:

Thank you Matt, but it's cool - he has a point, and I haven't done that - because my funds don't reach to such comparisons - and my photographic opportunities don't either - At any rate, I've answered, but I appreciate the remark - thank you!

Paratom
12th November 2019, 04:25
How about:

Jono,

Have you compared the SL2 AF with other FF mirrorless like the Sony A7 or Nikon Z?

Thanks,



Might be worth a shot. :grin:

I havent compared directly but I have owned an A7II some years ago, and tested a Z7 and owned a Z6 for some weeks and a S1r for some months.

Unscientific I think the Z6 has a little better C-AF than the SL(2) and S1r. In S-AF I find all those cams quite fast in S-AF, good for my kids at sports or my dog occasionally.

If one wants to shoot a lot of action and sports I assume the Sony A9 or a Nikon D5 or D1x.... would be the logical choice.
C-AF in contrast AF cams is still a compromise. On the other side speed and accurancy in S-AF is very good.

bab
14th November 2019, 05:43
I havent compared directly but I have owned an A7II some years ago, and tested a Z7 and owned a Z6 for some weeks and a S1r for some months.

Unscientific I think the Z6 has a little better C-AF than the SL(2) and S1r. In S-AF I find all those cams quite fast in S-AF, good for my kids at sports or my dog occasionally.

If one wants to shoot a lot of action and sports I assume the Sony A9 or a Nikon D5 or D1x.... would be the logical choice.
C-AF in contrast AF cams is still a compromise. On the other side speed and accurancy in S-AF is very good.

Fair enough answer I have been a Leica owner and enthusiast for almost 40 years, I love the simplicity of the equipment. As with most people the older we get the worst our eyes are at critical focusing. I have run some tests and besides the normal issues anyone would have due to vibration, shake, low s/s I found I canít manually focus hand held to satisfy my needs. Therefore a camera must check that box for me, the only way I have been able to nail focus manually is by shooting rapid bursts adjusting my position ever so slightly with the front middle back method. What does appeal to me is the resolution of the viewfinder and back lcd. I think the IBIS will be one of the most appealing proís of the SL2!
Thanks

Robert Campbell
14th November 2019, 11:45
Fair enough answer I have been a Leica owner and enthusiast for almost 40 years, I love the simplicity of the equipment. As with most people the older we get the worst our eyes are at critical focusing. I have run some tests and besides the normal issues anyone would have due to vibration, shake, low s/s I found I canít manually focus hand held to satisfy my needs. Therefore a camera must check that box for me, the only way I have been able to nail focus manually is by shooting rapid bursts adjusting my position ever so slightly with the front middle back method. What does appeal to me is the resolution of the viewfinder and back lcd. I think the IBIS will be one of the most appealing proís of the SL2!
Thanks

Ditto. I'm in a similar position. The IBIS is what could make it for me.

Paratom
18th November 2019, 13:48
IBIS, improved viewfinder, Leica simplicity in user interface, and good ability to use M lenses, ... and more important (IMO) quality of SL lenses... I am in ;)
and the body feels really good in my hands

most important: looks similar to SL - so I can smuggle it in my home without getting questions why I would need a new camera ;)

daf
19th November 2019, 21:25
Hi Jono,
is that true, the sl2 doesn't have any sensor shake/cleaning system to prevent from dust?
I'm very interested by this camera, but only to support my M lenses... As a fix focal user I change a lot my lenses and encountour too much dust on my Ms.. Cannot imagine moving to the Sl2 and it's direct sensor, without a cleaner system..

So is it true? I can't find this information anywhere, but,

scott kirkpatrick
19th November 2019, 21:42
It has a sensor shake for dust removal. There was a discussion on the LUF on whether it could be turned off, but apparently it is always executed when the camera is turned on.

jonoslack
20th November 2019, 01:20
Hi Jono,
is that true, the sl2 doesn't have any sensor shake/cleaning system to prevent from dust?
I'm very interested by this camera, but only to support my M lenses... As a fix focal user I change a lot my lenses and encountour too much dust on my Ms.. Cannot imagine moving to the Sl2 and it's direct sensor, without a cleaner system..

So is it true? I can't find this information anywhere, but,

HI There
Scott has answered this one (I didnít actually know the answer Iím ashamed to admit!).
I can see there is a lot of interest in using the camera for M lenses, and I only dealt with it rather cursorily in my article. So Iím going to do another article dealing with this specifically. Iíll try and get it finished over the weekend.

All the best

MGrayson
20th November 2019, 02:57
When sensor clean and IBIS were first combined a few years ago, the dust was unimpressed (or slightly amused; I couldn't tell which). The motors just couldn't shake the sensor at a high enough frequency. Something changed in the last few years (an extra ultrasonic motor?) and both functions coexist effectively. I have not tried it on the SL2, but have noticed this in other cameras with IBIS and sensor clean.

Matt

bab
20th November 2019, 16:13
True dust sensor cleaning will not work and should be turned off a can of air and or sensor stuck is the only things you need.

eddystone
21st November 2019, 09:01
Today's R-R is a BMW with added bling.

Most of today's Bentleys are VW/Audis with added bling, though there is still a V8 model available.

Neither has much residue, apart from the names, from former models.

Bit of a simplification. R-R Cars are part of BMW group (licensing the name for use on cars from Rolls Royce PLC, the much larger power generation group). Pretty well all the oily and silicon bits of Rolls Royce cars are designed and built by BMW in Germany but on a unique platform, not shared with any BMW (that was not true of the previous generation Ghost which was pretty heavily based on the BMW 7 series). Final assembly is at Goodwood in England which basically contributes the cabinet making, upholstery and paintwork - that sort of thing.

Bentley is a bit different. It has a similar autonomy within the VW group to Seat, Skoda or Porsche, so basically Crewe designs and engineers and assembles Bentleys but using the VW group parts bin. The previous generation Continental/Flying Spur were heavily based on the VW Phaeton but Bentley had as much input into the shared platform used for current models as Porsche. Crewe is the only place in the VW Group making 12 cylinder engines (originally designed for said Phaeton which was not a commercial success). The V8 engine used in the Mulsanne is actually a derivative of the legacy RR/Bentley V8 (not to be confused with generic VW group V8 used by Porsche, Bentley etc).

I presume you also believe the Bugatti Cheyron (also part of VW group) is a re-skinned VW Golf GTI

This is modern day manufacturing - the parallels with the L mount Alliance are evident.

DougDolde
21st November 2019, 11:28
Medium format pricing for a full frame camera, Not acceptable to me

scott kirkpatrick
21st November 2019, 11:49
When sensor clean and IBIS were first combined a few years ago, the dust was unimpressed (or slightly amused; I couldn't tell which). The motors just couldn't shake the sensor at a high enough frequency. Something changed in the last few years (an extra ultrasonic motor?) and both functions coexist effectively. I have not tried it on the SL2, but have noticed this in other cameras with IBIS and sensor clean.

Matt

I'm going on hints that i read in various places. I know that the IBIS is designed to move the sensor at the frequencies that humans apply. There is a whole spec for it that is the source of the number of stops gain that manufactures allow each other to quote. All you have to do is compensate successfully for a single minute-long trace that has been blessed for this purpose as representing typical users. Since Panasonic and Leica appear to be doing better than average I am sure that they do more. But shaking dust off is not part of this. That needs a separate very thin layer which I believe is part of the extra thin glass sandwich on top of the sensor. It probably operates in the 100s of kiloherz. Maybe this accounts for the difference in glass thickness between M10 and SLs.

Robert Campbell
22nd November 2019, 15:35
Bit of a simplification. R-R Cars are part of BMW group (licensing the name for use on cars from Rolls Royce PLC, the much larger power generation group). Pretty well all the oily and silicon bits of Rolls Royce cars are designed and built by BMW in Germany but on a unique platform, not shared with any BMW (that was not true of the previous generation Ghost which was pretty heavily based on the BMW 7 series). Final assembly is at Goodwood in England which basically contributes the cabinet making, upholstery and paintwork - that sort of thing.

Bentley is a bit different. It has a similar autonomy within the VW group to Seat, Skoda or Porsche, so basically Crewe designs and engineers and assembles Bentleys but using the VW group parts bin. The previous generation Continental/Flying Spur were heavily based on the VW Phaeton but Bentley had as much input into the shared platform used for current models as Porsche. Crewe is the only place in the VW Group making 12 cylinder engines (originally designed for said Phaeton which was not a commercial success). The V8 engine used in the Mulsanne is actually a derivative of the legacy RR/Bentley V8 (not to be confused with generic VW group V8 used by Porsche, Bentley etc).

I presume you also believe the Bugatti Cheyron (also part of VW group) is a re-skinned VW Golf GTI

This is modern day manufacturing - the parallels with the L mount Alliance are evident.

A simplification perhaps. I preferred the L-series V8 and all that went with it. RR and B stopped being 'original' in the early noughties.

ron787
23rd November 2019, 07:10
M lenses, as great as they are, arenít the pinnacle of lens design they once were. The SL lenses are better (technically anyway) by every sense of the measure and many competitors have exceeded Leica or gotten close enough to lens design that itíll likely take pixel peeping to tell the difference. In any case I think much of the debate is purely for the photographers enjoyment so to that I say use what makes you happy and donít look back. Those M lenses could easily fund your next kit should you choose to sell.

I couldn't agree more, in regards to the optical quality of the SL lenses vs M.
But referencing the new SL2, yesterday, I had the opportunity to play with a neighbors just arrived SL2. I had brought along my SL 24-90 Zoom and promptly snapped it into the camera's mount. Before I'd even powered up, something immediately struck me as odd; I, like many photographers, are accustomed to supporting heavy camera/lens combinations with my/our left hand beneath the lens. And when I did that I realized that I cannot effectively use the left sided, rear mounted buttons, and to do so I had to substitute my left hand with my right, an inefficient use of time and energy. While the left sided design might work well for the lighter APS-C Leica that can be managed in a one-handed fashion, no so with the SL2. Anyone else find this an issue?

PeterA
24th November 2019, 14:50
I couldn't agree more, in regards to the optical quality of the SL lenses vs M.
But referencing the new SL2, yesterday, I had the opportunity to play with a neighbors just arrived SL2. I had brought along my SL 24-90 Zoom and promptly snapped it into the camera's mount. Before I'd even powered up, something immediately struck me as odd; I, like many photographers, are accustomed to supporting heavy camera/lens combinations with my/our left hand beneath the lens. And when I did that I realized that I cannot effectively use the left sided, rear mounted buttons, and to do so I had to substitute my left hand with my right, an inefficient use of time and energy. While the left sided design might work well for the lighter APS-C Leica that can be managed in a one-handed fashion, no so with the SL2. Anyone else find this an issue?

Are you referring to the Play|Fn|Menu buttons? if so:

I find the three button system on my SL2 much easier to navigate and use than the previous four button with multiple press combinations to remember and use. However this 'much easier' is pretty redundant for my shooting style since I don't muck around with any buttons/dials when composing and shooting except for those associated with the exposure triangle and focus - so when it comes to SL or SL2 shooting - I use the joystick to choose focus point ( right hand) and shutter speed/aperture/EXpComp all are accessed via right hand dials or buttons. As far as the three buttons on left - they are largely redundant in shooting circumstances and the excellent GUI interface makes them almost totally redundant in set up processes.

ron787
25th November 2019, 07:07
Are you referring to the Play|Fn|Menu buttons? if so:

I find the three button system on my SL2 much easier to navigate and use than the previous four button with multiple press combinations to remember and use. However this 'much easier' is pretty redundant for my shooting style since I don't muck around with any buttons/dials when composing and shooting except for those associated with the exposure triangle and focus - so when it comes to SL or SL2 shooting - I use the joystick to choose focus point ( right hand) and shutter speed/aperture/EXpComp all are accessed via right hand dials or buttons. As far as the three buttons on left - they are largely redundant in shooting circumstances and the excellent GUI interface makes them almost totally redundant in set up processes.

Yes, the 3 buttons on the left. If they result in redundancy, then it may be a non issue but, if not, their placement is awkward for those accustomed to supporting a long and heavy lens from its underside with their left hands. Left hand underside lens support is an approach that I've used for my past 60 or more years in photography, and it has served me well.

Beyond that, from a personal perspective, I find physical buttons and levers to be more effective for outdoor work than touch screens. No matter how hard the developers try, LCD screens offer poor visibility in direct sunlight, while in a normally lit studio they are fine. But that is where choice comes into play, and we are fortunate to have numerous photographic options available to us. And while I had owned and used just about every Leica film camera and pre-SL2 digital, I have lost interest in Leica's philosophical approach and, with the exception of my remaining SL lenses, have moved on.

Paratom
27th November 2019, 04:03
I was someone voting to keep the 4 button design, but must say the new button design of Leica works relativly well for me so I got used to the 3 buttons.
The 2 front buttons are very very well placed for my hands. The 2 buttons which I find to small are the ones on the top plate.

I still find that the old M8/M9 with dedicated ISO/WB/Play buttons in one row was a very clear design.

Jay Emm
12th December 2019, 11:59
Thanks for your review Jono, I felt well informed after reading this (and the follow up comments here)