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Dave Gallagher
28th May 2009, 17:12
Guys,

The medium format digital back marketplace can be quite confusing, even for the people who are supposed to be the experts. The only way that you will truly understand the new technology is to shoot any new system side by side the older systems. With the arrival of our new P40+ the first test that we wanted to conduct was a shooting scenario on a technical camera with movements. We wanted to answer the question, will the P40+ produce an LCC that was unacceptable. The answer is clear in our examples, however so much more can be learned from this comparison than just LCC information. We will leave it up the veiwer to determine which relationships are more significant to them.

Equipment / Testing Procedure

Cambo RS with Schnneider Digitar 35mm f/5.6 XL Lens
10mm of fall on rear standard
1/4 second , f/11.5 , ISO 100 on all DBs
Blue sky, direct sunlight, deep shadows, Capture Integration famous Alley
Nothing optically or on the camera body changed between DB exposure


http://www.captureintegration.com/download/p40-65-45-compare-setup.jpg

Downloads
Download 100% JPGs at our website (http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/)
Download Raw Files (EIP format) at our website (http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/)


http://www.captureintegration.com/download/R2-Scene Crop-smaller.jpg


We appreciate this forum greatly. It is with your assistance and support that we continue to improve what we do. If there are any tests that you would like to see please let us know. If you have any criticisms, we are not above reproach. Thank you for letting us be a part of Get DPI. We appreciate it greatly.

Don Libby
28th May 2009, 17:34
Hi Dave

Great to see that Chris is letting you post again :ROTFL:

Looking at the LCC file comparison of the 4 backs I'd say the P40 & P45 both look very uniform where as the P65 looks like it gradually goes darker at the top. Am I reading this correctly or is it just my tired eyes playing tricks?

On the other hand the shots of the four sensors really shows just how "sports-bar" large the P65 sensor is compared to the others.

I also now understand EIP better thanks to your website.:thumbup:

Don

Guy Mancuso
28th May 2009, 18:09
Little more DR in the Dalsa which i expected and noticed myself. Agree with Don's comments. Looking forward to trying the P40+ in a couple weeks myself

Guy Mancuso
28th May 2009, 18:12
Dave thanks for posting this.

Don Libby
28th May 2009, 18:33
This has turned into a great week for technical camera information!

fotografz
29th May 2009, 04:23
WOW! That P40+ looks like another winner.

Don Libby
29th May 2009, 07:49
This test also shows the amount of cropping from each back ending with the P65 w/no crop. Looks like an additional 2 feet extra at the bottom (based on the difference in the door on the right and the wall on the left.

Did you just add the last image showing the crop lines?

Anyway thanks again for the information.

Don

Jack
29th May 2009, 08:00
Thanks for posting these Dave, a very useful comparison! It appears to me the P65+ adds about 6 or 8 degrees more FoV (with the 35) over the P45+ and the P45+ has about twice that over the P40+. I have not calculated the exact percentage FoV differences between the backs, but it may be a worthwhile stat if you have it.

ddk
29th May 2009, 08:13
Please correct me if I'm wrong, looking at the 3 it looks to me that P40 and P65 look very close in tonality and colors compared to same scene shot with the P45. For those with access to the C1 raw converter, am I seeing this right or the difference is in the processing and the quality of the light based on the time that each images was taken?

Guy Mancuso
29th May 2009, 08:15
What you are seeing is the difference between a Kodak and Dalsa sensor the 40 and 65 are Dalsa. Jack and I noticed this when testing the P65 and P45. There is a difference in color and the Dalsa has a touch more DR as well

ddk
29th May 2009, 08:28
What you are seeing is the difference between a Kodak and Dalsa sensor the 40 and 65 are Dalsa. Jack and I noticed this when testing the P65 and P45. There is a difference in color and the Dalsa has a touch more DR as well

I see, I didn't realize that the P65 was a Dalsa too, does that mean that one hour exposures aren't possible with this back?

Like you Guy I'm also in need of something with higher iso capabilities and faster shooting speed which my Leaf 54S failed to deliver, I think that I should get my hands on a P40 and give a try irrespective of my personal likes or dislikes for the C1 software.

Guy Mancuso
29th May 2009, 08:46
Absolutely you should try it. Yes the P65 and P40 are Dalsa and basically the exact sensor but the P40 has a crop sensor and I think it actually has faster shooting times.

Also not looking at the specs here but ISO 800 at full resolution for each back on the P65 and P40 than after that you would go into Pixel binning for 1600 and above

The P30 + Kodak goes full ISO 1600 resolution is a slower bck though , also Kodak sensor and goes 1 hour but both Dalsa is rated at 1 minute. So a little give and take here depending on what your real needs are.

Clawery
29th May 2009, 08:50
I see, I didn't realize that the P65 was a Dalsa too, does that mean that one hour exposures aren't possible with this back?

Like you Guy I'm also in need of something with higher iso capabilities and faster shooting speed which my Leaf 54S failed to deliver, I think that I should get my hands on a P40 and give a try irrespective of my personal likes or dislikes for the C1 software.

David,

You are correct about the P40+. It will have the same exposure time characteristics as the P65+.

I'm not sure if you are attending the upcoming workshop in Arizona with Guy, but Doug Peterson will have a P40+ in his bag of equipment for people to test. If you are not attending we can set something up for you to be able to test the P40+ to see if it will give you the high ISOs you are seeking.

Chris Lawery(e-mail Me) (mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Sales Manager, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 404.234.5195
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)

Guy Mancuso
29th May 2009, 08:56
Yes I am really looking forward to trying the P40 plus myself. I like the idea of this back,a really fast gun with good high ISO numbers. Also over the P30+ i could throw the P40+ on a tech camera as well without color shift issues

Jack
29th May 2009, 08:56
does that mean that one hour exposures aren't possible with this back?



Correct. I think both are spec'd for 60 seconds max, but I think Phase has figured a way to get 120 second exposures from the P65+ if the temperatures are mild.

ddk
29th May 2009, 09:31
I wish I could manage the time, at least to meet everyone if for nothing else.


David,

You are correct about the P40+. It will have the same exposure time characteristics as the P65+.

I'm not sure if you are attending the upcoming workshop in Arizona with Guy, but Doug Peterson will have a P40+ in his bag of equipment for people to test. If you are not attending we can set something up for you to be able to test the P40+ to see if it will give you the high ISOs you are seeking.

Chris Lawery(e-mail Me) (mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Sales Manager, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 404.234.5195
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)

ddk
29th May 2009, 10:01
Absolutely you should try it. Yes the P65 and P40 are Dalsa and basically the exact sensor but the P40 has a crop sensor and I think it actually has faster shooting times.

Also not looking at the specs here but ISO 800 at full resolution for each back on the P65 and P40 than after that you would go into Pixel binning for 1600 and above

The P30 + Kodak goes full ISO 1600 resolution is a slower bck though , also Kodak sensor and goes 1 hour but both Dalsa is rated at 1 minute. So a little give and take here depending on what your real needs are.

Dalsa or Kodak doesn't really matter to me if it delivers what I need. I don't really get the whole dumping thing, at 10mp I'd rather use my dslrs. Ideally what I want is a back that can deliver clean iso 400 to 600 images on a regular basis and not just under lit conditions and a steady speed. Shooting hand held I find having to remain with iso 200 or less too limiting with what I own right now.

Guy Mancuso
29th May 2009, 10:40
ISO 400 with any of the Phase backs is really good , so really no worries on that one much at all.

dougpeterson
29th May 2009, 10:47
Please correct me if I'm wrong, looking at the 3 it looks to me that P40 and P65 look very close in tonality and colors compared to same scene shot with the P45. For those with access to the C1 raw converter, am I seeing this right or the difference is in the processing and the quality of the light based on the time that each images was taken?

The 40+ is basically the same sensor as the 65+ but cropped smaller. So their "look" is, for all intents and purposes, the same.


Looking at the LCC file comparison of the 4 backs I'd say the P40 & P45 both look very uniform where as the P65 looks like it gradually goes darker at the top. Am I reading this correctly or is it just my tired eyes playing tricks?


We matched the CENTER of each shot so the P65+ is "seeing" further into the edge of the image circle projected by the lens. See the attached illustration of what the three backs see.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)

Don Libby
29th May 2009, 11:14
Once again thanks Doug...

Didn't think at the difference in sizes as I was looking at the LCC images however it makes sense as the P65 is sports bar size vs the rest.

Okay I'll say it again - thanks Doug!:clap:


Don

For those not familiar with the concept - sports bars here in the US generally have huge screens hanging from their walls showing the various games that are being played. Think in general terms of 60" plus compared to the more normally found 35" in a family room.

ddk
29th May 2009, 12:05
ISO 400 with any of the Phase backs is really good , so really no worries on that one much at all.


The P25 that I tried wasn't, still too noisy for my needs, my images tend to be very contrasty and usually have a lot of shadow areas, besides it was way too slow, never tried the P30 and looking at your results, I should have. Next purchasing round is around August when I actually get some free time to myself and right now P40 looks like the one, unless the Aptus 2-10 has some surprises in store, but in reality I don't need the its resolution nor do I need the P65's!

dougpeterson
29th May 2009, 12:49
The P25 that I tried wasn't, still too noisy for my needs, my images tend to be very contrasty and usually have a lot of shadow areas, besides it was way too slow, never tried the P30 and looking at your results, I should have. Next purchasing round is around August when I actually get some free time to myself and right now P40 looks like the one, unless the Aptus 2-10 has some surprises in store, but in reality I don't need the its resolution nor do I need the P65's!

The high-ISO performance of any given back has actually improved over the life of that product. For instance, there was a firmware update after the initial release of the P25 which lowered noise at higher ISOs. The P25+ is cleaner at high ISOs than the P25. C1 4.X does a better job with higher ISO than 3.X.

The 25+ is not our high-ISO champion (that would be the 65+/40+/30+), but it hold up pretty well. Guy has a lot of fashion/event shots posted from the 25+.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)

ddk
29th May 2009, 14:29
Thanks for the info Doug, I've seen some of Guy's P25+ shots but prefer the results that he posted with his P30+, but more inclined towards the P40+ over anything else. I even like the crop sensor.

Guy Mancuso
29th May 2009, 14:56
Yes agreed the P30+ is at least a stop maybe even more advantage in the noise area over my old P25+ which I still love that back but the P40+ may actually be even better than my P30+ and that is a test i will be trying later on too. I like the specs on the P40+ a lot even without the pixel binning factor

ddk
29th May 2009, 15:05
Yes agreed the P30+ is at least a stop maybe even more advantage in the noise area over my old P25+ which I still love that back but the P40+ may actually be even better than my P30+ and that is a test i will be trying later on too. I like the specs on the P40+ a lot even without the pixel binning factor

I think that you and I have the same requirement Guy, with MF I don't want to be forced to shoot wide open all the time when I don't have 1200watt strobes at my disposal. I can't use a tripod in my shoots and I need higher speeds to hand hold the franken mf cameras, clean, higher iso, without binning is really what I want.

Fortunately by summer's end we'll have more than one choice, the S2 along with P40+ and hopefully the Aptus 2-10 all hold promise. :)

Jack
30th May 2009, 05:49
I like the specs on the P40+ a lot even without the pixel binning factor

Except you can't get to ISO 1600 without binning the P40+, and you can with your P30+ --- IOW the P40+ becomes a 10MP camera at ISO 1600 and at least your P30+ stays a 30MP camera. Or am I missing something?

Guy Mancuso
30th May 2009, 06:11
No your not missing a thing and this one is a limitation on the P40+. When I get to test the P40+ i thought about underexposing the ISO 800 by a stop and see how it handled it. I went to the P30+ for a reason and that was ISO 1600. So this could be interesting. I wish the P40+ went to 1600 full res than have the Binning (option here) for 1600 and 3200 and heck even 800. This way you could stay at full res or drop down depending on what your doing.

etrigan63
30th May 2009, 06:58
Dalsa or Kodak doesn't really matter to me if it delivers what I need. I don't really get the whole dumping thing, at 10mp I'd rather use my dslrs. Ideally what I want is a back that can deliver clean iso 400 to 600 images on a regular basis and not just under lit conditions and a steady speed. Shooting hand held I find having to remain with iso 200 or less too limiting with what I own right now.


Not "dumping", "binning" as in "grouping". For more info read here. (http://www.echenique.com/index.php/2009/05/16/phaseone-sensor-pixel-binning-and-the-future-of-digital-photography)

kdphotography
30th May 2009, 07:14
On paper, it is true that the P30+ can shoot at 1600 full res whereas the P40+ uses Sensor+ (binning) to shoot at 1600 and 3200, and therefore only at 10MP. But those 10MP are still coming from a large sensor.

And in practice, assuming the P40+ is similar to the P65+, I'd bet that those 10MP images are going to be from high quality pixels and print very well.

And this is exactly why I think Guy is going to be in trouble when Doug brings out a P40+ for him to try.

....keep checking the Buy and Sell forum for a lightly used Phase P30+ later this summer....

:ROTFL:

ddk
30th May 2009, 07:20
Not "dumping", "binning" as in "grouping". For more info read here. (http://www.echenique.com/index.php/2009/05/16/phaseone-sensor-pixel-binning-and-the-future-of-digital-photography)

Thanks Carlos, I had the wrong idea. I thought that it was more like the old Kodak dslrs that one got a lot less higher iso noise at half the resolution. Still, as interesting as it sounds, this is all advertisement to me until I get to try it myself.

Guy Mancuso
30th May 2009, 07:58
I am in the process of getting a P40+ in about 2 weeks just before the workshop, so I can get a chance to test this out

ddk
30th May 2009, 08:00
I am in the process of getting a P40+ in about 2 weeks just before the workshop, so I can get a chance to test this out

Great!

Don Libby
30th May 2009, 11:40
Not "dumping", "binning" as in "grouping". For more info read here. (http://www.echenique.com/index.php/2009/05/16/phaseone-sensor-pixel-binning-and-the-future-of-digital-photography)

Carlos

Just finished reading your article and can finally say (at least to myself) I'm beginning to better understand pixel-binning. So for that thanks.

However now that I understand it better and seeing the application in landscape photography I'm feeling the beginning tugs of the newer backs...:eek::eek:


Don

Guy Mancuso
30th May 2009, 11:42
Sandy hide the credit card. Don has a feeling. LOL

Don Libby
30th May 2009, 11:47
Sandy hide the credit card. Don has a feeling. LOL

Might have to visit with you or Ken for a couple months:ROTFL::ROTFL:

kdphotography
30th May 2009, 13:53
Might have to visit with you or Ken for a couple months:ROTFL::ROTFL:

Guy might provide better adult supervision than me....

:D

Guy Mancuso
30th May 2009, 13:54
Heck i would make him really go broke , bad choice :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

tashley
31st May 2009, 12:41
Whatever protection Guy needs I need too - I got quoted an 'upgrade' cost of 7,260 excluding VAT so I won't be doing it cos I have to invest (finally and regretfully) in some lighting gear. But I love the idea of better high ISO and the smaller sensor has the advantages of cutting of weak lens edges. At first I thought it gave more shift, too, but DOH!... of course it doesn't!

But I am sorely tempted even though the full res 800 ISO shots still have some artifacts I'm not mad on.

T

Guy Mancuso
31st May 2009, 13:27
We will know soon after some testing. My P30+ looks pretty darn good at 800 and at 400 it is downright brilliant. 1600 is acceptable and if you downres it not bad at all. Have to see what the P40+ does

etrigan63
31st May 2009, 15:43
Carlos

Just finished reading your article and can finally say (at least to myself) I'm beginning to better understand pixel-binning. So for that thanks.

However now that I understand it better and seeing the application in landscape photography I'm feeling the beginning tugs of the newer backs...:eek::eek:


Don

Thanks Don. Glad I could help enlighten you. However, I take no responsibility if you take it upon yourself to lighten your wallet. I don't want your other half sending any hit squads after me.:grin:

Don Libby
31st May 2009, 16:09
Thanks Don. Glad I could help enlighten you. However, I take no responsibility if you take it upon yourself to lighten your wallet. I don't want your other half sending any hit squads after me.:grin:

I thought about going into the protection racket - err business; protecting folks picking up cans for recycling for a 50-50 split. Lets see maybe by 2015 I'll enough for a down payment.

I figure what Sandy doesn't know doesn't hurt me!:angel:

Don

etrigan63
31st May 2009, 17:44
Unfortunately for me, I married the cuban equivalent of Nancy Drew. She finds out everything! Makes getting her a surprise gift difficult in the extreme.

etrigan63
3rd June 2009, 19:20
This one is for Doug and Chris: Since the P65+ & P40+ are powered by a DALSA sensor, do they require the use of a wake-up cable on a technical camera or do they have a "large-format mode" like other MFDB's?

Guy Mancuso
3rd June 2009, 19:24
No wake up cable needed for the dalsa sensors from Phase

etrigan63
3rd June 2009, 19:27
Ooohhh, that means that I'm gonna have to add a P40+ to my wish list along with an Alpa TC outfit. I need to win Lotto :S

Guy Mancuso
3rd June 2009, 19:32
Yup makes it very nice for a TC