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View Full Version : There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My



Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 09:56
Well thanks to the folks at CI . Shipped overnight in my care is a P45+,P40+ and of course sitting here is my P30+. Okay who has my ticket to Brazil.:grin:

I have posted armed guards at my door and Drake my dog who would kiss you before even thinking about biting you . Okay he is worthless as a guard dog.

Anyway I hope to get out late this afternoon and start comparing the 3 backs. One awesome thing is real easy to shoot tests with this because all you do is switch the backs out on a firmly planted tripod , lens and body so everything is on equal ground. I will have to compensate by moving the P45+ closer in to match the framing of the P30 and P40 not a big deal.

Now these backs and bodies and such are making there way to our workshop next week with 9 shooters total so you will be seeing many images taken with all three starting next week. I get a chance until Tuesday to run some tests beforehand to see what the P40+ is all about.

What is interesting here is this is a Dalsa sensor and the same as the P65+ but with a crop factor and additional shooting speed. So in essence we really are comparing the Dalsa backs to the Kodak backs. The P40 Plus is a interesting back since it kind of rides the middle ground of the P45+ and P30 Plus. Couple things of note here it is a 40mpx back so equal to the 39mpx P45+ but with a crop sensor 1.3 and it is a 6 micron compared to a 6.8 micron. Several other slight differences as well much faster shooting times and even faster than the P30+ which is a 6.8 micron 31mpx 1.3 crop factor camera. Iso for the P45 + is 50-800, P30+ 100-1600 and the P40 Plus 100-800 normal 40 mpx than 1600 and 3200 I believe 11 mpx. Have yet to check that out or even mount the backs yet. Interesting question here is who does it go up against in it's own line . It's a mix of high MPX back with fast shooting speeds and high ISO. Couple things it does not need a wake up cable for a tech camera but it does have a limit of 1 minute according to specs. Something we will try is longer exposure times as well.

Anyway this maybe the first big test of all three Phase backs and if we are lucky a P65 may just show up next week. So i like to get enough of these test done before we all head out the door to go shoot them for real. Stay tuned

BTW this is a exclusive to GetDPI forums. I just don't have the time to post anywhere else, do to getting ready for the workshop and fixing about 5 more repairs in my house. So if you have friends than direct them here if they want to read these results. Again thanks to Doug, Chris and Dave at Capture Integration for getting these out to me before the workshop to give them a nice workout.

Dale Allyn
13th June 2009, 10:13
Sounds like great fun and potentially very useful information.

Re. moving the P45+ to compensate for FoV: I like to see at least an occasional inclusion of shots from the same position as a reminder of the degree of cropping, etc. It's not something that many of us can do in this class of camera/back on our own. Of course we can arrange it by cropping a file, but that's not quite the same.

Looking forward to your posts, Guy.

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 10:15
I was planning on that as well Dale

beamon
13th June 2009, 10:42
Yes, get those house repairs done, Guy. It must be in tip top shape when it undergoes the necessary inspection prior to the refinancing that will make some cash from it available to you. :ROTFL:

Anyone want to get in on the pool that is forming? You guess how many of the backs will be returned after the workshop. :D The arrival of a P65 will make it even more exciting.

ptomsu
13th June 2009, 10:47
Great to hear that Guy, looking forward to test all this next week.

I am especially interested in the P45+ an the P40+ and want to find out if the crop factor of the P40+ is limiting for my work.

Of course the P65+ will be great if we get - just for comparison :D

Terry
13th June 2009, 10:47
Wait....I'll buy you a Gura Gear bag to hold it all. :ROTFL:

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 10:57
Great to hear that Guy, looking forward to test all this next week.

I am especially interested in the P45+ an the P40+ and want to find out if the crop factor of the P40+ is limiting for my work.

Of course the P65+ will be great if we get - just for comparison :D

If it shows up the P65+ i would be surprised but Doug has requested it from Phase. The P40 is essential the same except for the crop and a touch faster shooting speed so regardless we can get a great idea on how the Dalsa performs for both the Dalsa backs.

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 10:58
Wait....I'll buy you a Gura Gear bag to hold it all. :ROTFL:

No it's still too big. LOL

It is a nice bag though and Andy did a nice job on it

Dave Gallagher
13th June 2009, 11:30
Take care of it Guy! You have my children's college fund in your hands! : )

ptomsu
13th June 2009, 11:51
If it shows up the P65+ i would be surprised but Doug has requested it from Phase.

Well I thought that Phase would ship that to us, knowing I am where :D:D:D

Just kidding. I fully agree that he P40 has the same characteristics as the P65. And to be honest, I will not be able to afford a P65+ anyway.

The P40 looks very interesting from all aspects - price, technology, features etc :thumbup:

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 12:25
Take care of it Guy! You have my children's college fund in your hands! : )

In the safe Dave. Not sure i trust myself. LOL

Okay time to play

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 12:37
Okay I lied. Sorry

P40+ back ISO 50-800 at 40mpx

When you engage Sensor + ISO 200-3200 at 11mpx I believe.


I actually like this better and for a guy that shoots events with MF , Yea i know i am one sick puppy but I could do the whole job with Sensor + on.

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 12:52
Couple new features here . On playback there is also a rating system like there is in C1 you can rate the image 1 to 5 stars.

Another really nice one is a grid system on the back so on review you could have. I love this since i teach it all the time

Golden Rule grid
Center Cross
Rectangle
Square

Color or B&W preview

One other note playback is much faster zooming and scrolling than my P30+ by a lot

Shooting speed I believe is .8 for the P40, 1 second for the P65+, 1.25 seconds for the P30+ and 1.5 seconds for the P45+. Now this is the time gone by before you can hit shoot again. Want to make that clear.

For P21+ folks it is the same speed as yours even though it is pushing 22mpx more raw data through the pipeline. Okay I am impressed here. That is a big file getting tossed pretty darn quickly. Yea it deserves a big :D:D:D

Don Libby
13th June 2009, 13:27
Good luck with the workshop Guy. I've got a feeling this will go down as one of the workshops folks will remember for awhile.

Just checked Intellicast and it looks like great weather conditions.

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 13:53
Yes lots of storms out there and thanks Don. Okay just shot the worst test first the noise test under ugly tungsten light , the worst noise light to photographers but I said many times when i test it is at the worst conditions and trust me tungsten is the worst for noise. I did move the P45 in on this test and just for grins I did put a color chart in . I will get to some real shooting in the morning when I sneak out at 6 am

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 13:57
Hate to say it and before I process this stuff, I do like the speed of this P40+ back and me liking something is not a good thing for my bank account. Let's see if it is all it can be over the next week and half though. Hard to beat that P45+ and P30+ backs.

kdphotography
13th June 2009, 14:14
Hope you have a great workshop---and fun testing all the Phase One MFDBs....

Congratulations on your new P40+ Guy!!

;)

(Has Roger or anyone else set up that pool yet?)

Terry
13th June 2009, 14:25
Hate to say it and before I process this stuff, I do like the speed of this P40+ back and me liking something is not a good thing for my bank account.

OMG :eek:

thomas
13th June 2009, 14:28
I am interessted in corner sharpness with the P40+ at 20mm and/or the P65+ at 10mm shift with a Digitar 47XL.
Any chance to do do some test like this? Would be great!
Regards, Thomas

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 14:42
Don't have a 47mm lens. Not sure what Doug is bringing for the Cambo and someone is bring a Alpa next week but not sure what he has

thomas
13th June 2009, 14:49
Don't have a 47mm lens. Not sure what Doug is bringing for the Cambo and someone is bring a Alpa next week but not sure what he has As long as there is a view camera that's great! The P65+ at 10mm shift (something concrete in focus at 10mm shift... not just sky) will tell enough I think...
Thanks, Thomas

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 15:01
Will do.

Okay question when I compare the Sensor + files to the normal files obviously there is a size difference. Maybe I should downrez the big files on that test

thomas
13th June 2009, 15:11
Will do.

Okay question when I compare the Sensor + files to the normal files obviously there is a size difference. Maybe I should downrez the big files on that test no, no... that's okay... just straight a crop of the corner at large movements. The P65+ at 10mm shift compares roughly to the P45 at 15mm shift... so that's what I would appreciate to see (the actual size doesn't matter).
Thanks again!

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 15:48
Thomas was talking about the noise test to get the same 100 percent crop. I will have to down rez the P40+ 40mpx 100,200,400,800 down to match the Sensor Plus 11mpx files to compare 200,400,800,1600 and 3200. I will do this when I reprocess the 40mpx files for the second part of the test. I will explain this as I go. Also the P30 plus

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 16:04
Just testing sizing here

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 16:05
Good enough to tell the noise levels. This is a 1200x900 crop

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 16:28
Another

Hauxon
13th June 2009, 17:56
I'd like to see (corner) comparison of the P45+ with the Mamiya 35mm lens and P40+ with the 28mm lens. Roughly the same angle of view, same resolution and same price.

Best, Hrannar

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 18:22
No 35mm lens but a 45d

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 18:35
Okay DON't post until i get this all up for you.Let you know when trying to keep this in order. Interesting noise test

Okay everything shot at F11 tripod mounted , mirror up and manual focus. All with the 45D lens. Now 100 percent crops got a little tight so I took 1800x1800 size chunks from all the files. Here I am just looking for noise more than anything else. Now these are WITHOUT SENSOR PLUS , that comes after i post all these at there full maximum MPX . Obviously the P30 + is a little wider crop but I am after noise so it maybe okay. First off the P30 Plus will most likely be the noise king here with full MPX because of the micro lenses but I have yet to compare either so we will see. After this test I will show you the Sensor plus with the P30 and P45 with exactly the same resolution since i downrezed them to equal the P40 sensor plus files . Why because that is most likely what we do anyway on some gig is reduce the file. I know I do this all the time for event and runway work. So you get two tests here.

C1 processing is identical on all files , a very small amount of sharpening, all noise levels are set at 25 for luminance and 36 for color. I would normally have this slightly lower on luminance but this is what got applied to all the files. I set up a style and applied to everything. Also lens correction was set for the 45mm. I did have to give the P45 a slight bump in exposure.

Okay in order every time P30, P40 and P45 Plus backs

ISO 100 Full Frame . Also shot under tungsten set at tungsten and did NOT WB any of this

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 18:39
Okay here we go ISO 100 crops

30,40,45

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 18:41
Okay here we go ISO 200 crops

30,40,45

Watch the Color checker( grey box) the knob on top right and cabinet bottom right

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 18:42
Okay here we go ISO 400 crops

30,40,45

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 18:44
Okay here we go ISO 800 crops. Last of all three together

30,40,45

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 18:47
Okay the lone wolf the P30 Plus at 1600 at full resolution. This was somewhat expected results. Also we are not cropped in as tight with the P30 with it's only 31mpx. LOL

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 18:53
Now This can all be tweaked as well and the color can go higher and the luminance a little lower . I will show a example with the P40 plus.

First one is the revised file with luminance at 10 and color 50 , second is the original 26 and 36. ISO 800 P40 file

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 18:56
Just from casual looking the P40 clearly beats the P45 at ISO 800 which is starting to smear as well.

Okay next test coming

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 19:26
Okay this test is pretty interesting the P30 VS P40 Sensor Plus.

Okay here is how I did this test . The P40 Plus files are 11mpx approximately 12.5 x 9 inches 300 dpi when using the sensor plus and you have ISO 200-3200. Now what I did here was downrez the P30 plus files to match. Now little secret when i do a lot of PR work with the P30 + this is exactly what i do is downsized it so I can process faster and for wedding shooters as well shooting MF they may do exactly the same. Obviously i don't need 31mpx for this stuff, so just shooting it at 11mpx gives me a huge benefit right out of the gate of pushing the files much faster in C1 and when on deadline this is heaven. So here I downsized the files right in C1 at the raw processing level for the P30 files

Now these are 100 percent 900x 900 crops

Lets start at ISO 200 P30 first than P40. I left the P45 out here since it only goes to 800

WARNING Watch the POST TO SEE WHAT IS FIRST . ISO 200 AND 400 THE P30 CAME UP FIRST AND THE REST 800 AND 1600 THE P40 DID

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 19:27
ISO 400 shots

P30 is first here

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 19:29
ISO 800

Darn the P40 is coming up first here

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 19:31
Lets try 1600

again P40 first. It's a size issue

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 19:32
And the lone wolf P40 3200

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 19:42
Okay without sitting and looking with a very critical eye in this test at least The P30 plus is taking the noise test and making it seem the best on a noise level and the micro lenses may have something to do with that and ultimately the processing parameters maybe better served at different settings for noise with different backs. Even so i think the P30 wins this contest with the P40 in second and looks to me the P45 did not do very well after ISO 400 and 800 looking not so hot.

Also obviously we are very upfront and personal with all this and in print form maybe a totally different animal. As we go along we will form different opinions on what you are after as well and your style. The landscape shooter does not care about high ISO stuff and as always said you want high ISO buy a D3 and certainly some truth to that thinking but even so with sensor plus I am noticing even at the 11mpx the detail did not diminsh at all and very equal to a P30 downrezed. Interesting

Hauxon
13th June 2009, 19:45
Interesting. First impression: P30 wins easily on noise. P40 better on noise than P45. ..and the P30 white-balance is not as good as the others, has pinkish cast.

I'd like to see comparison in subdued light. Most cameras perform pretty well at high ISO and good lighting. Difficult lighting will reveal problems like banding.

Guy, dandscapers care about long exposure performance witch is somewhat related to high ISO performance. I'd like to see 15-30 second exposures compared. The P45+ is of course the only option if you want longer than 30 seconds.

Best, Hrannar

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 19:45
Okay enough already go shoot something decent in the morning. LOL

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 19:48
Interesting. First impression: P30 wins easily on noise. P40 better on noise than P45. ..and the P30 white-balance is not as good as the others, has pinkish cast.

I'd like to see comparison in subdued light. Most cameras perform pretty well at high ISO and good lighting. Difficult lighting will reveal problems like banding.

Best, Hrannar

And that is the thing here we have crap tungsten light and reason I go after the ugly is I want to know the very bottom of the line before shooting something for a client and knowing you limits. It can only be better than this and I agree nice subdued light would be better , trying to find that in AZ is waiting for a storm to roll in. Not very often I am afraid. But we should hit that next week up North

Dale Allyn
13th June 2009, 20:19
Good stuff, Guy. Thank you.

I agree with Hrannar's comments regarding the P30+ winning on noise and handling the WB a bit differently. In "real life" one would process each file to the best possible outcome for each shot, rather than give them even treatment across the board, but it's good to see these comparisons so that we can glean the "tendencies" from these sensors' output.

Hauxon
13th June 2009, 20:20
.... I agree nice subdued light would be better , trying to find that in AZ is waiting for a storm to roll in. Not very often I am afraid. But we should hit that next week up North

Well here in Iceland storm is the norm and clear blue sky only few days a year. :rolleyes:

Guy Mancuso
13th June 2009, 20:20
Actually I agree a long 15 second shot would be interesting and also the P40+ is rated at 1 minute but Doug might have been testing it at 2 minutes

thomas
14th June 2009, 01:11
Lets try 1600
again P40 first. It's a size issue Guy, in this post and the ISO800 before the first image is the P30+, not the P40+. You can tell it from the blue tone of the "Eucerin Plus" (it's all "Plus" here :) ) cap - the blue of the P30+ is more navy blue whilst the P40+ blue is shifted towards yellow. Too, the P30+ shows a slight magenta shift in the whites in all shots.
Regards, Thomas

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 03:59
Thomas not sure what happened in this for sure since the software showed it in a different order than I loaded it. Never seen that before so those two could be wrong, . these are the sensor plus tests

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 04:01
Doing it in a singles post P40+ iso 1600

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 04:02
P30 ISO 1600

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 04:03
P40 ISO 800

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 04:04
And the P30 ISO 800

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 04:04
Okay that should clear that up

thomas
14th June 2009, 04:18
Okay that should clear that up yep. And now... the P40+ looks better at high ISO, no?

ptomsu
14th June 2009, 04:32
I must say from what I see in this comparison and from the web published images that P40 is kind of the winner for me overall - under these conditions.

Interesting to see how it will perform outdoors under daylight :)

Interesting to see how the A900 will be able to hold up against this :cool:

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 04:41
Heading out right now Peter. I do like the P40+ but keeping a open mind. I will say under tungsten it is closer to reality in color. Look at the towel on the right that is the proper color and the back wall is like a sand color

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 04:44
What I see is a lot of MPX in a faster back and i like the sensor plus idea for my event stuff . I know need to stop thinking like this it just will cost me $. I do love my P30+. The P40+ is kind of the best worlds between the backs on either side.

Now obviously we can change color and tweak these to be even better looking, just more trying to get what you see out of the can. Okay losing light check in in a few hours. Nothing special shooting wise trust me these are test images coming

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 04:47
My small take at Full res P40+ to 400 is excellent than switch to sensor plus
P30+ beats them all at Full Res up to 800 than has 1600 to boot.

But for ME ISO 800 and 1600 are more event crap so the P40 is kind of a plus

Have to be careful what you are asking for here

P45 Plus would not go past 400

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 04:49
Question is what do I take to Brazil. LOL

thomas
14th June 2009, 04:54
I must say from what I see in this comparison and from the web published images that P40 is kind of the winner for me overall - under these conditions. I'd say they are all quite close (though the P45+ at high ISO certainly not...). For use on MF camera the difference of the P40+ to the P30+ is the higher frame rate and 7MPx more. But the interessting thing about the P40+ is that you can use it on a view camera as well due to the lack of microlenses.
And it's less prone to moirée.


Interesting to see how the A900 will be able to hold up against this :cool: what is interessting here?


I will say under tungsten it is closer to reality in color. I think these Gretag targets are not accurate for white balance. At least you should use a grey card without metameric errors to judge about colour reproduction.

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 08:47
I did NOT WB any of the shots, straight out of the can. It's there to show color range. Also from every source I know that second grey in is perfect white balance and exactly like my WhiBal card

Okay went out shooting got some decent stuff than was called home in a hurry the pool pump lines blew up and mud and gravel everywhere so now i am going swimming in mud to get the gravel. HOME FOR SALE

You know the saying everything happens in three's well just my luck I have triple three's going on.

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 08:57
Let's remember that was specifically a noise test

cmb_
14th June 2009, 09:02
Mud and gravel - should provide good texture for detail shots with some great potential for specular highlights!

Sorry to hear of your troubles in the middle of your Phase frenzy weekend. Good luck Guy.

Dale Allyn
14th June 2009, 11:04
Guy, just call it a "pond" in stead of a "pool" and then you can go shooting in stead. ;)

Sorry about the pool woes. Never a good thing.

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 12:11
Yea . Like to fill it in with dirt and make a putting green out of it

dougpeterson
14th June 2009, 12:15
Good stuff, Guy. Thank you.

I agree with Hrannar's comments regarding the P30+ winning on noise and handling the WB a bit differently. In "real life" one would process each file to the best possible outcome for each shot, rather than give them even treatment across the board, but it's good to see these comparisons so that we can glean the "tendencies" from these sensors' output.

Also keep in mind that I do not believe guy used the Tungsten color profile ( because it was a noise-oriented test). The color profiles Phase provides for it's digital backs are tailored to the peaks-and-valleys of lightsources like flash, daylite, and tungsten light. Color accuracy in the very very crappy output of a tungsten light source is greatly improved by using the specifically tailored tungsten profile, but that's not the point of a noise test.



Interesting. First impression: P30 wins easily on noise. P40 better on noise than P45. ..and the P30 white-balance is not as good as the others, has pinkish cast.


I agree with Jack that the P40 wins on noise at S+ ISO 1600 and is the only back of the three with S+ ISO3200. I find this interesting because you generally shoot in one of two situations: tripod and/or plenty of light where you rarely leave base ISO, and crappy-event light where you'll be shooting near the max ISO that you can live with. In my experience (and obviously this is highly dependent on the individual), the "middle" ISOs of my systems get used far less often than the low and high ISOs.



I'd like to see comparison in subdued light. Most cameras perform pretty well at high ISO and good lighting. Difficult lighting will reveal problems like banding.


Banding is very, very, very rare with any digital back (maybe with the exception of the ZD). But you're absolutely right that tough lighting situations often extenuate and show and weakness. As I've pointed out many times on this board tungsten light is a near-worst-case scenario since the underexposure of the blue channel represents an effective 1 or 2 stop push of the blue channel and a 0.5 or 1 stop pull of the red channel, resulting in unusually high noise for any given "marked" ISO.

In other words if you set your camera to ISO 400 in tungsten light (assuming you are shooting without a lens filter, and you are correcting back to neutral gray in post) you are in fact shooting the blue channel at ISO 800-1600 while over exposing the red channel by a stop.

Skin tones, which require that the red channel's highlight information not be clipped by overexposure, are often the first to go in tungsten light, and blue dresses often show extreme noise.

Shoot a Canon and Phase at base ISO in tungsten light (e.g. an interior design shot) and you'll see the outcome is very very different.



Guy, landscapers care about long exposure performance witch is somewhat related to high ISO performance. I'd like to see 15-30 second exposures compared. The P45+ is of course the only option if you want longer than 30 seconds.



Actually I agree a long 15 second shot would be interesting and also the P40+ is rated at 1 minute but Doug might have been testing it at 2 minutes

We'll do long exposure tests while out West next week. Promise.

Until then I'll limit my comments. The 30+ can EASILY handle 30 second exposures (given a decently cool ambient temperature it could reach an hour). Though you are right that no back in the world will handle long exposures as well as the 45+. Also the 40+ will be able to go past 30 seconds; how far past 30 seconds and at what ISOs (and what it looks like) will all be addressed next week in extensive testing.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (mailto:[email protected])
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Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 12:17
This don't count as a test , played around with this P40+ 150 at 5.6. Handheld

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 12:22
One more same everything I am vignetting the corners

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 12:34
Also keep in mind that I do not believe guy used the Tungsten color profile ( because it was a noise-oriented test). The color profiles Phase provides for it's digital backs are tailored to the peaks-and-valleys of lightsources like flash, daylite, and tungsten light. Color accuracy in the very very crappy output of a tungsten light source is greatly improved by using the specifically tailored tungsten profile, but that's not the point of a noise test.


Your right I did not pick the tungsten profile. Stupid me, sorry folks. So much going on at the moment. Running in and out of office trying to everything ready.

P40+ Sensor + ISO 1600 with the Tungsten profile and it looks damn good.
I may run the P30 and P40 again in the sensor plus mode and 800 full res mode tonight or extremely early in the morning. I have todays stuff to process as well.

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 12:37
Here is the same one in the flash profile which i did all the rest at. Again my bad

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 12:38
I see more noise in the flash profile, Doug is correct.

Fair warning Dave you may want to think about not getting this home. ROTFLMAO

I like this back . Today I shot all three in the field, first I should say a dangerous operation by yourself juggling 3 backs. Finally decided the car had to be right next to me to work from. Honestly this is a two person testing situation. Going to wait to the workshop since I have others there to hand stuff to. But I know .8 Vs 1.25 does not sound like a lot faster frame rate until you have them both in your hand shooting. This thing seems to fly at shooting plus playback stuff is very quick also. I did notice one thing the review from the P40+ seems brighter and also warmer in temp. and actually maybe more accurate. Did I mention the shooting speed, just checking.

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 12:52
Not part of test and have some with all three and i am looking pretty much at the DR here. This is warm early light with a 45mm D P40+.

Look at the left side now in AZ the sun is bright and DR is a big factor here. Lot's of good detail in the shadows. Did not play with anything here

Dale Allyn
14th June 2009, 16:05
Wow, I'm impressed by the difference made by the profile setting in this case. I see some difference in my use of Flash vs. Daylight profiles, but obviously not this much. We know tungsten to be horrible, and it's nice to see the profile make a honest difference here.

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 21:14
This was meant to be a color test outdoors but a strange thing is happening all backs are set for daylight and ISO 100 and I picked all the same outdoor profile BUT both Kodak sensors P30 and P45 Plus backs came up with 4300 kelvin and tint -2. Now the Dalsa sensor the P40+ back came in exactly at 5500 kelvin and straigt up as the tint. Now they should all be coming in at 5500 kelvin because that is daylight.

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 21:16
Now obviously it is 6:30 am and the kelvin I know is around 4400 . So interesting how the Dalsa rendered it correct in the file and the Kodaks rendered the actually color temp and I am set at daylight and that should not change.

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 21:17
So let me pick a standard kelvin and apply to all That I think is correct for this early in the morning and it should be warm.

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 21:34
okay went in and had set individually the color temp for each file at 4900 kelvin . What is interesting is they are radically different profiles applying 4900 on a p45 sent the P40 to 10k when I tried to apply to all from the P45 . Did not like that one bit. So each file was set at 4900 kelvin. Also I have my highlight and shadow control on and the word Killer the Kil is blowing out some which is expected but I see the shadows blocking up more in the P30. So obviously this tells me it has less DR than the P45 and P40 which are about equal here, maybe more on the P40 but we will get into the DR again as we go
all at the same color temp that I feel represents morning light. Now outdoors WB means nothing it is what you want the file to look like and we will get more into WB stuff when we get in the studio at much more controlled light and such, if I get a chance to shoot that hopefully and I want to at least get into skin tones at some point in time

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 21:46
Now the P40 held the KIL actually better and also less blocked up in the shadows going by the warnings. As Jack and I noted when testing the P65 it has more DR than the Kodaks by about 1/4 to 1/3 of a stop. Not a big deal but it is there

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 21:55
Little different color looks and this may come down to just preference. Let you all be the judge. More to come in the morning but I do see a difference between the backs in these regards. Detail I can tell you is not going to be earth shattering against each other. The images are jumping off the screen , this is not even a concern as I see it. BTW all with the 28d lens. Ya it sucks. LOL

Could not resist. But I have to say maybe the digitars are better in theory but man i really would like to see the worldly difference in print and this stuff is extremely sharp.

I had to get my two digs in because I am pretty sick of hearing how ****ty mamiya glass is. Sorry but from a lens whore it bugs me to hear it when I am knocking them out of the park on a daily basis. Had to be said and I will drop it right here. I'm entitled to one bitch on my own forum.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Dale Allyn
14th June 2009, 22:06
Thanks, Guy.

Is there a labeling error in the last two sets? The first shows P30+, P40+, P45+, but the second shows P40+, P30+, P45+. While the color and crops suggest that the order did not really change between the two sets.

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 22:10
It went 40,30 and 45. Software is acting weird and I original put the continuous order and did not delete. Go by the warning label

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 22:18
Detail test. all with the 150d lens at F11. I did WB these off the white candle area, thought it would show some difference in color between them. I also processed them exactly the same size just a touch bigger and I mean a touch than the P30+ otherwise my crops won't match up and I did move the 45 in to match closer to the crop frame backs


Back name is on file

Dale Allyn
14th June 2009, 22:18
It went 40,30 and 45. Software is acting weird and I original put the continuous order and did not delete. Go by the warning label

I read the "warning label" :) but didn't get that it applied to both sets.

To clarify, both sets are 40, 30, 45. Right?

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 22:23
This is coming in all screwed up Dale . I am going to start actually putting the back name on the file. It goes by name than changes by size when you load them . Driving me freaking nuts

Dale Allyn
14th June 2009, 22:26
Sorry for your hassles, Guy. I appreciate what you're going through. I did not want to add to your frustration, but just looking for clarification. You're doing great in spite of the software glitches. Thank you.

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 22:27
I read the "warning label" :) but didn't get that it applied to both sets.

To clarify, both sets are 40, 30, 45. Right?

Hang on going to name them and reload. Give me a minute

Terry
14th June 2009, 22:29
This is coming in all screwed up Dale . I am going to start actually putting the back name on the file. It goes by name than changes by size when you load them . Driving me freaking nuts

Don't just do an insert all. Insert them one by one and you will get them in the order you want.

Dale Allyn
14th June 2009, 22:30
haha. I grabbed the files and saw that they were in fact the P30+, P40+ and P45+, in that order, just prior to you applying the labels. :)

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 22:40
Okay all fixed now, sorry about that. Easier I just put the file name . Okay I had a few cocktails. LOL No I am good

Guy Mancuso
14th June 2009, 22:49
Okay 100 percent crops

Dale Allyn
14th June 2009, 22:52
In big light like this, this last set looks to go in order of detail: P45+, P40+, P30+. About what one would expect and hope. Thanks.

thomas
15th June 2009, 00:53
Detail test. P30+ and P45+ show moirée, P40+ not. Damn, that's good!


Okay 100 percent crops did you apply sharpening? looks like...

Hey, that's a lot of work - so thanks for all the comparisions, appreciate it.

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 04:05
I did put some sharpening in across the set, not sure I like it though. I have another set coming that I will keep even lighter.

Check out the moire was going to post this last night but the internet went south. Moire will happen but it is less so with the 6.8 micron sensors and even the 6 micron may have the edge here

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 04:11
Looks like the Kodak has more of a wider band of moire going across. Also I can see the P30+ showing it's lack of MPX. The P40 and P45 have a little more detail. Let me make a note here on the P65 PLus not being tested here but I have in the past . If you see the P30 compare to the P45 detail difference well if you threw the P65 in there expect about that same difference if not a touch more over the P45 and P40 which here look pretty even. So yes there will be a gain with the P65 no question but being a worldly difference it will not be. But if you need or want the absolute highest the P65 will get you home

thomas
15th June 2009, 04:21
Check out the moire was going to post this last night but the internet went south. Moire will happen but it is less so with the 6.8 micron sensors and even the 6 micron may have the edge here now that's interessting to see - thanks a lot! The 40+ has not less moirée it just has finer moirée... was not visible in the full size shot above.

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 04:23
What I am finding and others maybe coming to some conclusions as well the P40+ is really the mix of the two Kodaks has high MPX and detail but can handle noise like the P30 without the use of micro lenses and still use it on a tech camera with no wake up cable. The only real downfall is the exposure limit against the P45 otherwise it is even faster to run. BTW the crop sort of works in your favor with the 28mm it is sharp to the corners without adding corner sharpness. I will show that as well. Let's move on to some DR stuff..

BTW to make these test what I did was separate each group from each back and put them in the same folder so every scene has all three backs in it when I go to process. So I maybe loading the raws up later so you folks can play around. Makes it easier to work with also like this

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 04:27
now that's interessting to see - thanks a lot! The 40+ has not less moirée it just has finer moirée... was not visible in the full size shot above.

Maybe better said Thomas agreed. It's going to happen on occasion no doubt but the 6 micron handles it better

thomas
15th June 2009, 04:36
BTW the crop sort of works in your favor with the 28mm it is sharp to the corners without adding corner sharpness. I will show that as well. that's certainly true.
With the 28mm and the 1.3 crop you get roughly the same field of view as with a 35mm and the 1.1 crop. My Contax 35mm is very good at the edges of the P45 with 1.1 crop.
For some reason I feel that the difference from full frame to crop 1.1 is not that limiting. Whilst the difference of crop 1.3 compared to crop 1.1 is.
Whatever...

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 04:45
And the corner sharpness really does work. I actually like the space around the frame . I do wish they would make the lines darker though so I can clearly see the framing. Like to see Mamiya make some new screens with a microprism in it for manual focus and darker frame lines.

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 05:11
Let's see how this looks . Now color again kind of different so on this one let's not worry to much about it , I just tried to match as much as I can without getting into WB. One thing of note the P40 highlight warning is coming up sooner than the Kodak backs. So here I did recover just the highlights slightly. I'm more looking at the shadow area and how far it is seeing in. Also ignore the obvious vignetting on the P45 that is my hood which is NOT the original lens hood for the 45mm.

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 05:13
Interesting as we have seen the P30 is a little pink anyway a good example of the framing between the backs , I did not move here

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 05:28
Bored Yet. Sorry I know this stuff can be boring

Let's try color here I DID WB these from the second grey patch in . All with the 28mm at F11. Will show you some corners after this also. Note the color differences between the backs now. Pretty interesting how it gets rendered when WB . I did pick all outdoor profiles for each back

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 05:35
In all honesty besides features and such . This maybe the biggest differences in the backs and how it renders color. BTW I hit the WB in the P40 and did not move. The P40 acts differently with daylight and it stays at 5500 kelvin period and the Kodaks do not they come in around 4300 which going by accuracy of the setting made the P40 is correct , Daylight IS 5500 kelvin. So when working with the different backs we have to keep this in mind.

Bottom line is when you set a setting it should stay at that setting the Kodaks are acting like AWB and not sticking to there numbers of the setting. Workshop members take note of this next week. You need to be aware of this when you get anyone of these backs on how they are working. To me the P40+ given the true kelvin of daylight is correct, regardless of the color of light pouring in the scene.. Big WARNING here to take note of

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 05:41
Note to all the P45 looks crunchier in color or more saturated. So it is a nice look outdoors as it has great saturation BUT it maybe wise to back the saturation off also. Obviously this depends squarely on the look you are after as well. We have to separate accuracy from visually appealing. It may look awesome which it does but not truly accurate. Which is fine but something again to be aware of. Now no one has 3 different backs in there arsenal either and once you get to know the back you own than comparisons meaning nothing. Just a matter of getting to know your back and how it renders. Frankly I would be happy with any of these backs in my bag, no question.

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 05:44
My personal preference in this scene and this is me talking is I like the P30 it has a fine balance of saturated blue sky without going overboard . FYI you can see WHY I DON"T use a polarizer in AZ.

But most accurate maybe the P40. Now here is where color editor can play a major role in your images.

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 06:00
Now this maybe a bit unfair since i am nowhere near focusing on the left bottom plane in the image and at F11. I am really focused about 15 ft or more out but I will show it anyway just for FYI . Extreme left corner with the P45 . Now the P40 and P30 is is not even a issue because of the crop but here is the 45 using corner sharpness. Now if I was closer to this plane of focus it would be more obvious

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 06:02
I should have on the next test a more accurate focus plane for the corners. back in a bit

BTW all sensors are loaded with dust so need to clean them before we leave

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 06:20
Hmmm I actually may have found a bug in C1 . Okay under the WB menu the mode pull down on the P45 and P30 when I select daylight it comes in at 4300 Kelvin which I have been talking about , now if I select as shot it comes in 5500 kelvin. NOW on the P40 either way daylight or as shot it is 5500.

Doug can you try this and see what is up and what would be correct on how the software is supposed to render this.

Jack
15th June 2009, 06:29
Hey Bud,

Those P45+ files totally ROCK!

:ROTFL: :ROTFL: :ROTFL:

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 07:10
Love ya too bud. They do no question. I like all three backs so that is not even a thought. The P30 or 40 just fit me better but you still can't beat a 45 for what it does well. Equal yes but that 1 hour exposure time is a handy dandy plus for it.

Jack
15th June 2009, 07:29
Your P30+ has one hour too, doesn't it?

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 07:30
Better example of the 28mm corner. I am focused much closer to the corner and F16 also. Unsharpened corner than sharpened. P45 file

thomas
15th June 2009, 08:24
Better example of the 28mm corner. I am focused much closer to the corner and F16 also. Unsharpened corner than sharpened. P45 file is that in the focus plane and is that what the 28mm is capable of? looks like my Digitar 47XL at full 20mm shift on the P45...

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 08:28
I am actually focused at about 10 ft past this

Jack
15th June 2009, 08:35
Looks to me like the wider FoV for the P45+ has changed the exposure a bit, and the above P45+ file is about 1/3 to 1/2 stop lower exposure than the P30+/40+ ??? Also looks like the P40+ is more saturated on reds and less on blues, or basically what we saw with the P65+ too...

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 09:06
Yes Jack they certainly have a different look to them and something to think about when making a purchase. Obviously you can tweak anything but sometimes we like things out of the can like you want to start with. Personal preference and that is the difference I see from a image standpoint. Not counting any features

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 09:07
Just did a little speed test on the P40+ . How faster can you shoot

Okay back set at Sensor + in S format for one full minute on continuous shooting, I got 82 frames but I did hit a buffer about 4 times for like 2 seconds each. Maybe did not hit the first buffer until I got to about 42 shots.


Full Res files in S format never hit a buffer I got 61 frames off.

If I ever shoot that fast i will remind my client they are not paying me enough. LOL

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 09:26
Last test for now until we get on the road. Really need to clean the sensors and pack everything up . So here just playing with the kelvin temp tried to get as close as I could to each other. Certainly different profiles for the Kodak and Dalsa. Take some time to get better acquainted with that as we continue on and see how to get the best from each. Anyway all 28mm lens at F16. Again I know this stuff is boring but if we can take something away from it than it certainly helps understand these backs and that was my goal. Also a little self serving as well for myself since i own the P30+ i want to see what the new P40+ does and brings to the table. Hopefully that helps everyone

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 09:32
Obviously these are different in look and one maybe looks better than the other but right now i would not judge so hard because being a new back I need to understand how to tweak it they way I like or the way you like it. I see one favors green and the other favors red. Like our film days there is Ekatchrome and there is Kodachrome. Nice thing about digital is you can make it anyway you want in processing. Thanks for tuning in and more coming this week

Dale Allyn
15th June 2009, 10:54
Thanks for all of your efforts, Guy. It's great to see these comparisons. Web files are web files, but there is still a lot we can glean from all of this.

(I always preferred Kodachrome for my color stuff, so still like the look of the Kodak sensor. ;) heehee )

Guy Mancuso
15th June 2009, 12:42
Oh some stuff i forgot to mention and a little help from Doug.

Other little things:
- Flip Down Firewire Guard (good for landscape shooters who never tether)
- Virtual horizon (when used with the cube it makes two axis leveling extremely fast and accurate. With a cube you level, rotate 90 degrees, level, and return to station; takes 10 seconds and is VERY accurate for rotate-and-stitch-panoramic.
- Zero latency for tech cameras (no wakeup cable); great for handholding with a travel camera like the cambo compact or alpa TC and less hassle when shooting a full sized tech camera

Clawery
16th June 2009, 04:05
Guy,

Thanks for taking the time to test all of the Phase One DBs and posting your images. I can't wait to see what everyone posts from your workshop! Have a great time!

Chris Lawery(e-mail Me) (mailto:[email protected])
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Guy Mancuso
16th June 2009, 04:16
Thanks Chris and thanks for getting all this stuff out to me ahead of the workshop. I found out Doug has a surprise for us also a P65+ . So now we have the whole Phase line with us on the workshop. Should be a lot of fun and hopefully a lot of great images will be shot and posted. Great experience for the attendees to try out this gear and get a first hand chance to work with it both with technical camera's and the Phase bodies

yaya
16th June 2009, 05:51
Guy I think that P45+'s chip needs a good clean:-)

Guy Mancuso
16th June 2009, 06:14
Certainly does Yair it was pretty bad. I cleaned them all yesterday. Good to see you again hope all is well. Many rumors floating about Leaf , i hope all is well in that area. We need this market to be stable. Please keep us posted on any developments.

plupcoutrielo
16th December 2009, 16:57
Thanks for your comments. I agree that the home page is long, but I dont mind too much if people dont get to the bottom, the information there is not essential and there are links to the rates and availability from the buttons at the top.

I take your point about the background. It is

greygrad
18th March 2010, 04:28
Great post - lots of interesting info. Saw a couple of posts that mentioned doing long exposure testing on the P40+. Im interested in seeing how noise is handled (without any post processing) as exposure times increase (e.g. 10 secs -> 30 secs). Has anyone experience of this, or posted the results somewhere on the web? Thanks in advance.

toramip23
31st March 2011, 17:14
It's a mix of high MPX back with fast shooting speeds and high ISO. Couple things it does not need a wake up cable for a tech camera but it does have a limit of 1 minute according to specs. Something we will try is longer exposure times as well.

joao henriques
29th May 2011, 16:19
A little late to comment but nevertheless thanks Guy for posting all this. As to noise i did some tests with p30 (non plus) against p40+ and in the 200-800iso range p30 easily beats p40+, although at 800iso p30 is not that good.