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Mr. Lee is gone from Leica

LJL

New member
Too many unknowns for me to have THAT much of an opinion at this point. However, the backstory is something we may never learn. Having spent too much time as an executive level management consultant behind those closed doors, trying to help clients wend their way through internal squabbles, I can say that it is never easy, nor clean.

I do not know either of these gentlemen (Lee and Kaufmann), but things have been set into motion (M8 upgrade program, Web site, etc.) with more than complicit knowledge and planning on the part of all. Mr. Lee may have had the final say, and maybe even the suggested direction, provided support, etc., but that is what he was chosen for in the first place, so all the other board members had a pretty good idea what they were getting when they installed him as CEO.

The "rebellion" and uprising by dealers and employees, as reported by a few folks in the LUF (do not know the validity of those comments), suggests his direction and management style were at odds with "established" ways. Surprise? It seems as though Leica had made a deliberate attempt to shake things up and change its future by selecting Mr. Lee from the start. He helped achieve that, but obviously it came with some other costs and possible repercussions.

How this will impact customers remains to be seen. Leica has benefited enormously from the recent resurgence due to the M8, and has regained a bit more "profile" than it had only a few short years ago. The stresses on a company making such dramatic changes, especially shackled with older ways is commendable, and I would doubt they are wanting to sustain, or abandon that at this point. They need their dealer network and loyal employees. They also need a more aggressive market focus and an ability to support the increasing volumes they are now selling (mostly lenses). They have some serious problems there, as many of us have experienced with delays, poor communication, less than stellar repair and service work/turnaround, etc.

The comments about how much damage all of the high level turnover recently will create is a concern, but only if Leica fails to execute approved plans and directions. If they have an M9 or R10 in the pipeline, that will continue, hopefully not getting delayed, as they are already a bit behind the curve there. My personal opinion is that because Leica is dependent upon relationships with other suppliers for sensors, shutters, electronics, etc., they are always going to be in a bit of a precarious position.

Sorry for the ramble. It just seems that until more is known about why Mr. Lee was dismissed/fired/sacked/booted (or whatever politically correct/incorrect term one cares to use), it is a speculation game at best, and most of us will be very wrong. The Web site is an attempt to reach out to a newer generation of users, but it still had to play to an older, more conservative audience that may not have "gotten it" when first viewed. That hurts both ways....failing to reach the new target, while also upsetting the existing customers. Tough call, but again, I think a lot more folks were behind this than just Mr. Lee, but he has to be the guy that takes the blame....that is what he got paid the big bucks for ;-)

Personally, I think things will work out. I just hope Leica does not lose what little momentum and market presence they have right now. The M8 upgrade program sounds great, but right now does not really appear to offer all that much for the cost, both internally and externally. All of the other efforts still seem "behind" with respect to getting things out the door and working as flawlessly as Leica has had a reputation for. It could be that Leica, as it is designed and running as a company today, really cannot keep pace with the customer demand. If that is the case, they need to retool, and the CEO is only one slot.

LJ
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Actually the less speculation the better.
Sometimes it has nothing to do with anything but personality and a test of wills.
But just from the M8 point of view, I can think of issues from
- the IR filter surprise,
- the early camera re-call,
- frameline issues
- rangefinder calibration issues
- shutter noise
- shutter feel
- AWB
- immature firmware
- customer and product service "worst in the business"
and so-forth
Neither the product nor the organization was ready at the time of M8 introduction and has yet to catch up, and what could have been a very profitable experience has turned into an embarrassment capped with a web site marketing image that really is awful for a camera company.
I remember when Montblanc made really good pens. That has changed along with a marketing image pretty close to what is intimated by the new and sucky Leica web site.
In a few years if direction is not corrected, all Leicas will be poorly constructed except for exterior finish and most of the revenue will come from the Leica line of jewelry sold at airport kiosks. The lenses will be (quietly quietly) CV glass in Leica mounts.
-bob
 

LJL

New member
Bob,
Not disagreeing with your list of issues related to the M8, as they are very real and ongoing things.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that Mr. Lee may or may not have been totally responsible for ALL of the ills. (Not defending him here, but offering up a perspective.) The design and build of the M8 was in the works before Mr. Lee came aboard, correct? He had ultimate responsibility for things released and how they were handled from that point on, for the most part. (I wonder if any of the engineers that designed and built the M8 replete with so many problems came under any fire for their mistakes?) If he did not instill some urgency in product release, would we even have the M8 at this point, and would Leica even be on the map any longer? The associated glitches, issues and other things have been one poorly attempted recovery after another.

Those are some of the unknown internal things that may play into Leica's future, with or without Mr. Lee. Personally, I think Mr. Lee inherited a company that was seriously derailed and about to collapse. He had a job to turn things around, and for the most part, he did, though not without many ancillary issues, as you mention. How each of those were dealt with and executed has not been stellar for sure. Leica is not out of the woods by sacking Lee, and they could actually have undercut themselves more if they do not quickly and assuredly address many of the issues you mention.

I agree that they could revert to being a nostalgic brand peddled as jewelry and other stuff, as you mention, if they do not correct direction. I just am not sure how serious they are about what it will take to do that. Mr. Lee started them down a path of acceleration that they sorely needed, but the rest of the company may not have been able or willing to make the changes needed to keep it going, as well as to maintain quality. Is that solely Mr. Lee's fault? Probably not, but he was the one responsible for things.

The more I think about this, the less comfortable I feel about Leica's future success, to be honest. If they cannot turn things around internally also, which seems to be needed with respect to QC, trained techs, customer service focus, excellent product release to start, etc., nobody at the helm will be able to make that much difference. Time is not on Leica's side at this point. They still have some incredible tools, but if they are hard to get, cost too much, do not work as advertised, and take forever to fix, why will anybody really bother with them except as collector trinkets, and the market for that will dwindle quickly, as they have seen. The new Web site is a testament to advertising a "lifestyle" more than anything about quality and capability. That is the realm of "fad", and will not last for long, especially if folks who get sucked in feel like they overpaid for junk.

LJ
 

Maggie O

Active member
The new Web site is a testament to advertising a "lifestyle" more than anything about quality and capability. That is the realm of "fad", and will not last for long, especially if folks who get sucked in feel like they overpaid for junk.
Interestingly enough, it was a move towards "lifestyle" marketing that saved the Gibson guitar company. By pushing prices up and by aggressively pushing the lifestyle aspects of owning a Gibson (jewelry, clothes, product placement and endorsements) and focusing on lowering production costs (while ignoring QC, sadly), Gibson has gone from struggling to thriving.

A new Les Paul is still an overpriced crap shoot of a guitar (it might be great, it might be awful, it might be OK but not great), but Gibson is making money hands over fist with them, selling them to dentists who want to go to Rock Camp. :ROTFL:

All I can say is:

Standards Are Down All Over™.

edit: Full disclosure- I play Fender, Hamer, Rickenbacker and Danelectro guitars.
 
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LJL

New member
Maggie,
So are you suggesting we keep our Canons and Nikons and others cameras for the really serious photography, but embrace the Leicas to display that we are hip and part of that lifestyle? ;-)

Interestingly, that is a bit how I am feeling at this point, but with Canon's recent stumbles on the MkIII series cameras, I do not feel all that comfortable there either :-(

At some point, a decision has to be made by the customer/buyer.....do they embrace expensive, but iffy stuff for a label, or do they go to either more mainstream, realiable but boring gear, or really high end specialty gear?

I used to shoot M4s as a PJ. They always worked for me. I love my M8, but do not feel comfortable with it as anything more than my "creative" camera at this point. If I must get the shot, I grab one of my Canons. Looking forward, I personally think Leica needs to change a whole lot more than the CEO and Web site to survive and keep customers coming back.

LJ

P.S. Not being into the guitar scene, but recognizing all the brands you mention.....just how many serious players embrace Gibsons now? The analogy being that having a Leica is more for looking status quo than for serious use. All of the other stuff you mention surrounding Gibson trinkets for sale makes them a successful brand for a while, but is that sustainable if nobody really plays their guitars?
 

Maggie O

Active member
P.S. Not being into the guitar scene, but recognizing all the brands you mention.....just how many serious players embrace Gibsons now? The analogy being that having a Leica is more for looking status quo than for serious use. All of the other stuff you mention surrounding Gibson trinkets for sale makes them a successful brand for a while, but is that sustainable if nobody really plays their guitars?
Everybody plays Gibsons these days. Lifestyle, like sex, sells.

If Leica could pull the trick that Gibson did, which is put an M8 or R10 into the hands of almost every working pro in the national media (which Gibson has done with guitars), then even the punters down at the chip shop would aspire to owning one.

Now, the thing with Gibson is they've got their Epiphone brand to sell to the punters (and the average working musician), and there's a raft of Gibson branded straps and bags and hats and shirts and keychains, making them more like Canon, I reckon.

If I were to pick a direct analogy to Leica in the guitar world, I'd say they're more like Paul Reed Smith guitars- PRS makes very expensive, hand-crafted instruments in the USA along with a smaller set of Asian-built "SE" instruments aimed at the prosumer and entry level markets. The quality of the USA instruments is impeccable (though their sound and feel isn't for everyone) and their import instruments are well regarded in their categories. Sort of like Leica.
 

LJL

New member
O.K., I think I get what you are talking about here.

Problem I see is that there is little chance for Leica to pull that off. If the camera itself really did perform without all the caveats, filters, downtime, repair issues, etc., etc., then maybe, just maybe they could convince more serious pros to step up and use it. That is what I was referring to about Leica needing to change more than just the CEO.

As it stands now, Leica does not yet have an R10, and the M8 is still a somewhat crippled edition of things. It works, but not without a lot of extra effort on the part of the owner. Not what you can call mainstream, and also not what a pro can truly rely on to get the job done all the time. So if they were even hoping to fly like Gibson, they still have a long way to go to get things to market. I dare say, a guitar is not quite as complicated as a digital rangefinder or SLR camera, but I appreciate the nuances of its sound as compared to the "look" produced by lens/sensor/software.

Not sure I would agree with the PRS thing.....to me Leica no longer has that handcrafting and care of build it once had. They are still done up nicely, but they seemed to go "cheap" in all the wrong places....lousy shutter release button assembly, improperly configured rangefinder lines, etc. Sort of like putting really cheap strings on that PRS that stretch with every stroke or something. If the main input/contact points are not that good, it becomes less of a great instrument, no? (Sorry for getting way out of league with your guitar analogy, but I do see similarities with what Leica may be trying to do, but not executing it very well at all.)

LJ
 

Maggie O

Active member
I dunno, my M8 is a pretty damn fine piece of crafting. YMMV.

I dare say, a guitar is not quite as complicated as a digital rangefinder or SLR camera
Believe me, it is just as complicated, just in a different way. (And when you get to things like digital modeling amps and guitars, it's not so different.)
 

LJL

New member
Maggie,
Sorry....the crafting is fine. My issue is that it is not a completely finished package with all the fine crafting, and its operation is at times still a bit erratic. I got my M8 in Nov '06, when they first came out. Since that time, I have had to spend a lot of extra for filters, coding, downtime trips for repair, brand new lenses that do not focus accurately, firmware missteps, etc. Those things inhibit full-time, reliable successful use, regardless of how nicely crafted the body is, how wonderfully built the optics are, etc.

The design and build of the M8 is pretty incredible in its attempts to continue the M film camera line/ergonomics. The overall reliability and consistency for image capture is only now fully coming into line. That has been a major frustration for me and others. I love the feel of the M8, but I hate the shutter button release, am put off by how slow its electronics are, how noisy the shutter is compared to the older Ms, and things like that that are functional to image capture. The images I do get, I love, and that keeps me in the game. However, there are just enough issues right out of the gate that keep it from being a solid go to all the time camera for heavy professional use, in my humble experience. I will not part with it, as I love using it, but I strongly advise colleagues that are interested to go into it with a lot of thought, hands-on efforts and patience, as it is not something that one casually picks up and uses like a P&S or any other DSLR for that matter, let alone the demands for all the extras. That is much more than just a lifestyle choice for purchase and use.

You are correct about individual mileage and variation....for me, Leica has a ways to go to turn out a workhorse professional level use camera that can take the use and abuse and always get the frame as it did in the past, and as most of its DSLR competitors do today. If it wants to sell that lifestyle image/use for profitability, fine....but I think that is going to be harder to achieve if it cannot produce the gear to back up the demand and meet serious professional service needs.

Back to your analogy with the guitars.....Leica's other digicams (PanaLeica) and 4/3 models may be more akin to the Gibson lifestyle approach, but they are not really keeping up there either...on high prices maybe, but not on offering anything more compelling. I am really not trashing Leica here, though it sounds that way. This started as a thread about Lee getting booted. Leica needs to shake up a lot of things within its operation, and not just its Web site and CEO, IMHO.

LJ
 

LJL

New member
Good man, Guy!!

The Telecaster is the M3 of guitars. Gotta love early 50's design.

Gotta show mine off now:



We now return to regular programming.
Way to go, Maggie!!! Beautiful collection. Any Stratocasters laying about in your collection? (I am a big SRV fan.)

LJ
 

Maggie O

Active member
I've got a pair of Strats, LJ.

Here's my gold one, with my Jazzmaster:



And here's my old sunburst, which I've had since 1983 (pardon the ancient photo):



As for the M8, mine has been rock solid, so it seems, at least to me, that Leica got its act together in the time between the time yours was made and when mine was made. Let's hope.
 

LJL

New member
Maggie,
SWEET!!!! Thanks for sharing. Guess you can look at the new Fender "Lenny" version they have out, but I love your collection ;-)

As for the M8.....Glad yours is working to your needs. Mine does now, but I had greater expectations than it delivered when I first got it. I still have those expectations, and am waiting to see what Leica is going to do next.

LJ
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member
I keep my fingers crossed that Leica is aware of the importance of sufficient information in such a situation.
 
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