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View Full Version : Sigma DP1 vs Oly E420 vs GRD II



jonoslack
5th March 2008, 01:21
Hi there
I thought it was worth posting this here, as so many of us are preoccupied with small cameras (and the DP1 doesn't have a small sensor).
I thought the E420 announcement was interesting, here is a comparison of sizes and weights:

Olympus 420: 125 X 53 X 91 380 gm
Sigma DP1: 113 X 50 X 59 250 gm
Ricoh GX100: 112 X 25 X 58 260 gm
Ricoh GRD 1: 107 x 25 x 58 200 gm
Leica D-Lux3: 106 x 26 x 56 220 gm

The Olympus will be slightly bigger with the 50mm f2.8 pancake lens (but less than 10mm).

Of course, it has the advantage that at other times one can put on the excellent Olympus 14-42 zoom.

Food for thought - here are a couple of links:

http://fourthirds-user.com/2008/03/the_new_olympus_e420_dslr_and_25mm_pancake_lens_ex amined.php

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0803/08030501olympuse420.asp

Sorry if this is the wrong place, but I thought it would be of interest to those looking for a pocket camera with an optical viewfinder, I think the Olympus certainly qualifies.

Terry
5th March 2008, 02:46
Jono,
I don't know the Oly lens line up. Do any of the good long zooms have stabailization in the lens?

I know there is a Panny one for the L10 that also works for the contrast detection AF. So maybe this would work on thr E420. Just looking at coverage longer than the M8 can get.

Sorry I just saw another E420 thread and will post this over there.

Brian Mosley
5th March 2008, 04:49
Hi Terry,

the (two varients of) Leica 14-50mm and Leica 14-150mm lenses both offer OIS... and you can use legacy lenses, like the Leica R 135mm f2.8 in manual focusing mode - which gives a fast, compact prime lens option. Live View will make legacy lens focusing possible (and you can add a KatzEye split prism focusing screen)

Hope that helps

Kind Regards

Brian

7ian7
5th March 2008, 06:21
Wow. The 420 + 50mm (equiv) pancake lens
is compelling. It's cheap and small enough for
serious consideration even with no plan to fully
commit to the Olympus lens line-up. Nice post.

nostatic
5th March 2008, 07:35
can you get the Leica lenses by themselves though? I haven't seen them offered (but I also haven't looked *that* hard). I'm back into "hunt" mode for a larger sensor camera, having dabbled in Pentax land with the K10d and liking it but not being thrilled by it. I got better pics from my DLux3. I pondered 4/3 before...hmm...

PeterLeyssens
5th March 2008, 07:52
Olympus 420: 125 X 53 X 91 380 gm
Sigma DP1: 113 X 50 X 59 250 gm
Ricoh GX100: 112 X 25 X 58 260 gm
Ricoh GRD 1: 107 x 25 x 58 200 gm
Leica D-Lux3: 106 x 26 x 56 220 gm

The Olympus will be slightly bigger with the 50mm f2.8 pancake lens (but less than 10mm).

Hi Jono & all,

In the meantime you already know that I'm interested in most of these cameras (though my personal preference would be E510 and the DP1 leaves me cold). But, I noticed I forgot to introduce myself ! My name is as my nick suggests. About 20 years ago, I bought my first camera, an OM-1. I stuck with Olympus for about 10 years, until I joined a photography course and got interested in other ways of working. I bought a Minolta TC-1 and some Leica thread mount stuff, but I'm slowly selling my stock to provide funds for the move to digital.

I noticed that dragging around an SLR or even an M8 is quite a hassle because of the size, particularly the lens that sticks out. The small sensor cameras definitely have an edge here. Also, for the flexibility (e.g. 24mm lens on GX-100), they're very cheap. On the other hand, if you wad out piles of cash, any SLR or RF is much more flexible because of the interchangeable lenses. But the one digital RF on the market (M8) is so expensive that I'd be scared to use it, so that one is out. As for the choice between small sensor or SLR: the best is to have both ! The small one for every day photography, and for bigger jobs, an SLR gives more flexibility. I'm still in the market for a cheaper RF, though, if that should come out.

With this E420 and the pancake lens, Olympus is effectively reopening the OM market segment and improving it. The complete package is about the size of an OM-4T with the 40mm pancake lens (a bit less long but a bit taller). The other lenses seem really big, but it's okay to carry one or two in a coat pocket, like we did in the OM days. That the two lenses I'd pick would be an 11-22mm or a 40-150mm. Gettting the range from 21-300mm on OM would've taken a lot more lenses and a lot more weight than this FourThirds setup, so Olympus has actually delivered on their promise: smaller cameras. Quite impressive !

I'll still probably just go for the GX-100 for now and save up for a decent E510 in the next few months. But I'm excited !


Peter.

Lili
5th March 2008, 07:55
All this talk has me really excited.
Right now the E410, old skool but still very capable and tiny, has gotten really cheap.
I bet it will work great with that 25/2.8 pancake.
Mayhap not so well with live view, but you have tiny DSLR with a fast lens.
PURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
^_^

Mitch Alland
5th March 2008, 08:10
The E420 does look interesting — of course if I got it I'd have to destroy it's files to get the effect I want <g>. Rather than the 25mm lens that gives an EFL of 50mm I would have preferred an EFL of 40-42mm, as I have really started to like the 40mm EFL of the Ricoh tele-converter of the GRD/GRD2. And I'd want 21 and 28mm EFL lenses, but I gather there are no small 4/3 lenses if these EFLs, are there?

I must say that I'm much more attracted by the idea of the E4120 than by the DP1, and wonder whether this is partly because I feel Olympus has always made better lenses that in the pass.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

7ian7
5th March 2008, 08:21
Vs the DP1, I agree Mitch.

7ian7
5th March 2008, 08:24
Oly has always been such a sensible manufacturer, that I think I must have a block against diving in, save for a Stylus at some point in the early 90s.

BTW, seems like there's plenty of noise at 400 and beyond on their other sensors, and no, not a big selection of primes yet.

Lili
5th March 2008, 08:27
I quite agree with both Mitch and Ian, givine the choice of the DP-1 and an E-410/420 with the 25, I would go Oly all the way :)

PeterLeyssens
5th March 2008, 08:42
About the DP1: I fully agree: it'll be more expensive, with most probably a weaker lens that's not exchangeable. And it's not very pocketable because it's 5cm deep. Of course, that's only where the lens sticks out of the body that's fairly much a brick otherwise, but you can't take that lens off ;)

Peter.

Maggie O
5th March 2008, 08:48
Now I want to see Olympus make a Digital XA, same great lens, same form factor, same VF, but it can be autofocus. That would be a camera worth owning and possibly a GR-D killer.

Brian Mosley
5th March 2008, 09:51
The E420 does look interesting — of course if I got it I'd have to destroy it's files to get the effect I want <g>. Rather than the 25mm lens that gives an EFL of 50mm I would have preferred an EFL of 40-42mm, as I have really started to like the 40mm EFL of the Ricoh tele-converter of the GRD/GRD2. And I'd want 21 and 28mm EFL lenses, but I gather there are no small 4/3 lenses if these EFLs, are there?

I must say that I'm much more attracted by the idea of the E4120 than by the DP1, and wonder whether this is partly because I feel Olympus has always made better lenses that in the pass.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Hi Mitch,

you could use the 14-42mm f3.5-f5.6 lens for an EFL of 28-84mm and plenty of dof... plus shooting at ISO 3200 would perhaps give you a head start on getting your signature style (which is fantastic. by the way!)

Kind Regards

Brian

jonoslack
5th March 2008, 10:27
Hi Mitch,

you could use the 14-42mm f3.5-f5.6 lens for an EFL of 28-84mm and plenty of dof... plus shooting at ISO 3200 would perhaps give you a head start on getting your signature style (which is fantastic. by the way!)

Kind Regards

Brian

Mitch
It's also worth mentioning that this zoom lens of which Brian talks weighs . . . 190 gm and focuses down to 25cm - it's also very sharp, and I second his opinion, crank up the ISO and you'll be where you want to be!
for your other pocket there is a 40-150 (80-300) which only weighs 220 gms

The pancake lens weighs 95 gm

all small enough to go on your belt without trouble!

clay stewart
5th March 2008, 13:17
Holy cow, I read that part about the new E410 this morning, before work, but didn't see the part about the new 25 mm lens. That is so cool. After what, about eight years of affordable DSLR's, someone finally comes out with a lens that really makes sense, for street photography. I know Pentax had a couple pancakes, but they were still sort of odd ball focal lengths. This has got to be the package I've been waiting for. Now, if they can just add a 14 2.8 to go along with it. Good going Olympus! Anyone hear of a release date for the lens?

tmessenger
5th March 2008, 13:38
Hi Mitch,

you could use the 14-42mm f3.5-f5.6 lens for an EFL of 28-84mm and plenty of dof... plus shooting at ISO 3200 would perhaps give you a head start on getting your signature style (which is fantastic. by the way!)

Kind Regards

Brian

Yeah I was surprised how well the 14-42 performs, don't see much difference compared to my Zuiko primes. I've been using the 28/3.5 Zuiko with an adapter and split prism focus screen with my 410 but the new pancake looks like the ticket.

tm

Lili
5th March 2008, 15:24
Holy cow, I read that part about the new E410 this morning, before work, but didn't see the part about the new 25 mm lens. That is so cool. After what, about eight years of affordable DSLR's, someone finally comes out with a lens that really makes sense, for street photography. I know Pentax had a couple pancakes, but they were still sort of odd ball focal lengths. This has got to be the package I've been waiting for. Now, if they can just add a 14 2.8 to go along with it. Good going Olympus! Anyone hear of a release date for the lens?

Per DPReview; May

Hypnohare
5th March 2008, 17:01
Great Post Jono!

Suddenly my day got quite a bit more interesting! I've always liked my old Olympus film camera and I really look forward to checking this new camera out along with the cool pancake lens.

I really hope this gets Nikon and Canon to start developing compact cameras for the advanced photographers and not just compacts for the entry level consumers. Frankly they (Nikon and Canon) could do a lot better than the P5100 and G9! Just my opinion.

asabet
5th March 2008, 18:56
While there have been a number of posts on a number of sites to the effect that the E-420/ 25 pancake combo eliminates the need for the DP1, I don't see it that way. I can understand that someone with the already somewhat compact E-420 might want their compact camera to really compact, eg GRD. The GRD is truly a "go everywhere," fit in any pocket-type camera. OTOH, some will find the DP1 small enough to go everywhere and the E-420 a good size for travelling light on days when deliberate work is planned. Still others will enjoy carrying both a DP1 to cover the 28mm FOV and E-420/25 for the 50mm FOV. That's nearly as compact as carrying the E-420/25 and the separate 14-42 zoom and comes with two distinct bonuses. 1) You get to use two different "films" - Foveon X3/Sigma and Panasonic/Oly; and 2) No lens switching required. Although there is overlap between these two cameras, there are plenty of differences; and to me, both cameras make sense as photographic tools.

Mitch Alland
5th March 2008, 21:41
...you could use the 14-42mm f3.5-f5.6 lens for an EFL of 28-84mm and plenty of dof... plus shooting at ISO 3200 would perhaps give you a head start on getting your signature style (which is fantastic. by the way!)...


....It's also worth mentioning that this zoom lens of which Brian talks weighs . . . 190 gm and focuses down to 25cm - it's also very sharp, and I second his opinion, crank up the ISO and you'll be where you want to be!
for your other pocket there is a 40-150 (80-300) which only weighs 220 gms

The pancake lens weighs 95 gm

all small enough to go on your belt without trouble!Thanks for the kind words, Brian.

Brian, Jono: Great minds think alike: I was also thinking about the 14-42mm lens and pushing ISO to 3200 to work around the f3.5-f5.6 maximum aperture limitation. The only issue with that is that I use the LCD rather than the viewfinder for framing and the LCD is going to be (disconcertedly?) dark at ISO 3200 — but that may not matter because I look at the subject when pressing the shutter button and only use the LCD for loosely establishing the edges of the frame: I'll have to try this.

AS state above I certainly am much more interested in the Olympus E420 than in the Sigma DP1, but most likely won't buy it because I like the results that I'm getting with the GRD2 so much that I don't feel the need for "more image quality", as you can see in the pictures in following thread:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=942

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Mitch Alland
5th March 2008, 21:47
While there have been a number of posts on a number of sites to the effect that the E-420/ 25 pancake combo eliminates the need for the DP1, I don't see it that way...Although there is overlap between these two cameras, there are plenty of differences; and to me, both cameras make sense as photographic tools.That's not the way I see it; nor is it the way the market is likely to see it either, not least for the reason of the general reputation of Olympus and Ricoh as camera and lens makers compared to that of Sigma. I can see going the with the GDR2 or the E420, or with both; but if the E420 and it's lens are as good as expected a large portion of the DP1's market has suddenly evaporated — or at least as far as my needs are concerned. Time will tell...

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

kai.e.g.
6th March 2008, 00:20
I have to agree with Mitch. Especially if Olympus take the E420 one "little" step further down the track and remove the "reflex" aspect of the camera (no mirror, no prism, no slr "hump") - shaving off the entire top plate of the camera, and either eliminate the flash (keep the flash shoe!!) or make it a little pop-up one like DP1/Ricoh. They'd be approaching something along the lines of a Canon G9 in length/height, except with 4/3rds sensor and interchangeable lens, including the possibility of the skinny pancake. They'd retain the SLR's lens register distance, just to make existing lenses compatible, at the obvious cost of increased thickness.... but my word the flexibility and ease of transport would turn heads. Now I can speculate more easily on why the president of Sigma was recently quoted with promises of more models of DP1-like cameras before the year's end (in any other circumstance a crazy thing to reveal) - I wonder if he knew competition was soon about to tighten up!

Mitch Alland
6th March 2008, 00:52
Kai, I'd be surprised if Olympus got rid of the "vestigial" reflex hump as they probably don't need to do it for competitive reasons. Is it really likely that the reflex VF on the E420 would be so poor that people would want to see it go? Är det möjligt?

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

kai.e.g.
6th March 2008, 01:05
I suppose I was thinking of it more as an avenue of approach for Olympus should they want to enter the high-end compact market... but you might be right that the market itself wouldn't care about the body size if the lenses are in any case relatively hefty (certainly when compared to "real" compacts). Most people would prefer the TTL view of course. It's probably just me who hates the resulting bulge :-)


Är det möjligt

You're just one country too far to the west for my 2nd language, but I do have a Swedish-English dictionary handy :-)

PeterLeyssens
6th March 2008, 02:04
Kai, I'd be surprised if Olympus got rid of the "vestigial" reflex hump as they probably don't need to do it for competitive reasons. Is it really likely that the reflex VF on the E420 would be so poor that people would want to see it go?

I agree: people recognise SLRs by their hump. Olympus already tried to get rid of the hump in their E-3xx series. Aside from how good a tool those cameras may be, Olympus switched back to a hump and I'm guessing it'll stay that way. It's a bit of a macho thing like a big spoiler on a car: you may not need it, but people recognise it as a sports car.

I personally wouldn't mind, though. Taking out the viewfinder and that silly built-in flash would reduce the size even more. I'm considering an external viewfinder anyway, not just because I hear FourThirds viewfinders are tunnel like. That can be solved to some extent with the ME-1 1.2x eyecup. But I think I'd miss having the surroundings in the viewfinder, like a rangefinder shows it.


Peter.

jonoslack
6th March 2008, 02:45
I agree: people recognise SLRs by their hump. Olympus already tried to get rid of the hump in their E-3xx series. Aside from how good a tool those cameras may be, Olympus switched back to a hump and I'm guessing it'll stay that way. It's a bit of a macho thing like a big spoiler on a car: you may not need it, but people recognise it as a sports car.

I personally wouldn't mind, though. Taking out the viewfinder and that silly built-in flash would reduce the size even more. I'm considering an external viewfinder anyway, not just because I hear FourThirds viewfinders are tunnel like. That can be solved to some extent with the ME-1 1.2x eyecup. But I think I'd miss having the surroundings in the viewfinder, like a rangefinder shows it.


Peter.

There has been a lot of talk on the olympus forums of the "EVIL" (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens) camera, but personally I like real light.

As for the 'tunnel like' 4/3 viewfinder - it's true of all but the E3, which has one of the nicest and brightest viewfinders I've used (with a proportionately larger 'hump').
The E420 will be (I guess) the same as the E410 etc. Still, one should get this in perspective, it might be 'tunnel like' but it's in a completely different league from the nasty little holes you get in the likes of the Canon G9.
Mind you - I agree, rangefinders have taught me how nice it is to see what isn't going to be in the picture as well as what is.

asabet
6th March 2008, 04:02
Click here for a nice demonstration of the size difference between an E-420/pancake and the DP1. (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=27066738)

Player
6th March 2008, 04:13
I see the E-420, as Mitch does, as more of a competitor to the DP1 than the GRD2. It's probably worthwhile to sacrifice the smaller-dimensioned DP1 to gain the flexibility of an SLR, since both cameras aren't exactly svelte. The sensors are close enough to be moot. The GRD2 seems to be still unrivalled.

Lili
6th March 2008, 05:43
Click here for a nice demonstration of the size difference between an E-420/pancake and the DP1. (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=27066738)

Amin beat me to punch here :)
However that picture there does illustrate there is still considerable size difference between the DP-1 and E420.
Whether or not one is willing to sacrifice the added flexibility of the 420 for the far greater carryability of the DP-1 is very much a personal decision.
Given the MSRP of both cameras I suspect many will opt for the 420 25/2.8 combo, even if it doesn't cover the wide angle of the DP-1.
For me it is a kind of tough choice.
I adore my GRD first gen so would not find the fixed prime WA lens to be a onerous limitation at all.
The slower speed of the lens would be annoying but then most of my shots with the GRD are in bright daylight or high ISO and f4 seems to be my most used aperture so I might be nit picking here.
The live view of the 420, while a step up from the 410 does not seem so fast by its very nature in focus as the GRD or DP-1. However if one prefocuses or uses scale focus then the point is moot.
Question; does the Oly 25/2.5 actually have a focus scale?
If not how does one do scale focus?

Will
6th March 2008, 06:19
I've linked it from the post by Guenter Borgemeister in DPR

http://borgemeister.com/OLY_DP1_2.jpg

Brian Mosley
6th March 2008, 06:31
I've linked it from the post by Guenter Borgemeister in DPR

http://borgemeister.com/OLY_DP1_2.jpg

That's a nice illustration - I'd like to see it showing the DP1 with the lens properly extended and the OVF fitted. I realise you wouldn't keep it in a pocket that way, but it would still be a good comparison.

Kind Regards

Brian

7ian7
6th March 2008, 07:57
Is the point really that it has to be as small as the DP1? Its build is way more sturdy — presumably — so it could live on a strap on one's shoulder, without fear of ruining it. It can shoot six RAW frames in two seconds. It will focus faster than any of our little cameras. It has "contrast detection" or whatever — it focusses differently in Live View, so even then it may still be quick as hell. The only thing I think might disappoint some of us, is that the Oly's "Super High Grade" fixed aperture zooms are not tiny, and also that they don't make a very wide prime. Lately I've been eyeing new dSLR systems — such as the D300 in combination with a used Nikon or new Voightlander pancake lens, which would be a way bigger investment (and probably worth it), but definitely not as small. I guess the question is what the files look like: are they only slightly "better" than our Ricohs or only slightly "worse" than higher end dSLRs. I read about dynamic range issues in an article about the top-of-the-line Oly dSLR (as well as the 410 and 510) on Luminous Lanscape.

asabet
6th March 2008, 08:14
Most people have their own subjective size categories. For one person, a DP1 may compete in the same size category as the E-420. For others, a DP1 may compete in the GRD II size category. I'm in the latter camp. A DP1 is very similar in size to a GX100, as Björn Utpott has shown in this comparison (http://www.pbase.com/viztyger/image/93827730/large). As for the size added by extending the lens, a consideration Brian and Jono have mentioned, that is not a significant factor for me. The OVF is a factor, but I will try to get by without it for now in order to keep the form as compact as possible.

Lili
6th March 2008, 08:32
Amin, Thanks for that very informative link, puts things in a very clear perspective!
As to this size issue, I carried my Hexar AF for long time and counted myslef lucky for such a portable camera.
The really small size and weight of the GRD is wonderful for all that it can do.
However, do *I* really need such a small camera for everyday carry?
Propbably not, but it really does help!
My only gripe with the DP-1 (in so far as I can have any, not having even seen one) are the fact the it does very much the same job as the GRD (albeit with a much bigger sensor) with which I am more than pleased ( liking very much the small sensor look ) for a bit more $$.
"If it ain't broke dont fix it"
However the E420 appeals a lot, I seldom took (its still at Pentax for repairs) my K100D anywhere due to size/weight/noise issues.
The little Oly does not have these (I have handled and shot with an E410 and the lightweight but very sharp 14-42 kit lens)
With the 25 it would very much rock, however I see it in light of my Pentax and hexar, not in comparison with the GRD/DP-1's of the world :)

jonoslack
6th March 2008, 09:50
Is the point really that it has to be as small as the DP1? Its build is way more sturdy — presumably — so it could live on a strap on one's shoulder, without fear of ruining it. It can shoot six RAW frames in two seconds. It will focus faster than any of our little cameras. It has "contrast detection" or whatever — it focusses differently in Live View, so even then it may still be quick as hell. The only thing I think might disappoint some of us, is that the Oly's "Super High Grade" fixed aperture zooms are not tiny, and also that they don't make a very wide prime. Lately I've been eyeing new dSLR systems — such as the D300 in combination with a used Nikon or new Voightlander pancake lens, which would be a way bigger investment (and probably worth it), but definitely not as small. I guess the question is what the files look like: are they only slightly "better" than our Ricohs or only slightly "worse" than higher end dSLRs. I read about dynamic range issues in an article about the top-of-the-line Oly dSLR (as well as the 410 and 510) on Luminous Lanscape.

I guess I can chip in here - having loads of both D200 / D2x / K14n / E3 / E510 images - for me the 4/3 images are less good at high ISO, but I think they always have better colour. But, for the sake of your argument, and in your words, 4/3 files are only slightly 'worse' than higher end dSLR files (although many would bicker about that). They are definitely much 'better' than ricoh files (please note the quote marks!). Which is what you'd expect, the sensors being so much larger.

nostatic
6th March 2008, 11:58
Good timing on this discussion as I returned my Pentax K10d because I barely used it in HK and was getting better shots with the Leica. For whatever reason I still feel the "need" to have a dslr around. I'm starting to get more call for doing some shots at work (a sideline), and I love to shoot macro, which a good dslr and proper lens will do beautifully (when I get it right).

Sadly, part of the DSLR thing is just legitimacy. When I'm shooting for other people (ie work), if I pull out the Leica I'm perceived as being an "amateur" and treated as such. If I pull out a dslr (like when I shot our group photos with the D70), I am a "professional." While the proof should be in the pudding, often it isn't. Plus I do like the idea of being able to swap lenses if need be. Since I'm a digital media guy and not a "photographer" per se, it isn't that big of a deal but it is palpable.

So I was pretty much set to get a K20d because of the new sensor, and I do like the UI of the Pentax, plus the "vibe" of the brand. Plus I can buy older primes and use them. But 4/3s has always intrigued me.

Part of me just says to keep shooting with the Dlux3, and I will, but I think I need more than just one tool...if for no other reason than to inspire me to see differently.

Brian Mosley
6th March 2008, 12:09
If you're happy with your Dlux3 (I'm happy with my LX1 for small sensor cam) then the E-420 would be ideal, considering the legendarily sharp Olympus ZD 50mm f2 macro lens would also be available.

It's worth mentioning that the shutter sound of the E-420 is likely to be an issue for anyone used to the near silent small sensor cams - you'll want to keep your Ricoh / consider the DP1 for those ultra low profile shots!

Kind Regards

Brian

asabet
6th March 2008, 12:48
Amin, Thanks for that very informative link, puts things in a very clear perspective!
As to this size issue, I carried my Hexar AF for long time and counted myslef lucky for such a portable camera.
The really small size and weight of the GRD is wonderful for all that it can do.
However, do *I* really need such a small camera for everyday carry?
Propbably not, but it really does help!
My only gripe with the DP-1 (in so far as I can have any, not having even seen one) are the fact the it does very much the same job as the GRD (albeit with a much bigger sensor) with which I am more than pleased ( liking very much the small sensor look ) for a bit more $$.
"If it ain't broke dont fix it"

Lili, that makes very good sense!


However the E420 appeals a lot, I seldom took (its still at Pentax for repairs) my K100D anywhere due to size/weight/noise issues.
The little Oly does not have these (I have handled and shot with an E410 and the lightweight but very sharp 14-42 kit lens)
With the 25 it would very much rock, however I see it in light of my Pentax and hexar, not in comparison with the GRD/DP-1's of the world :)

That's how I see it as well. The E-420 as very much in the same size class as the Hexar AF/RF, Leica M, and Olympus OM series. I think it will be a big hit along with the ZD 25/2.8.

nostatic
6th March 2008, 12:52
If you're happy with your Dlux3 (I'm happy with my LX1 for small sensor cam) then the E-420 would be ideal, considering the legendarily sharp Olympus ZD 50mm f2 macro lens would also be available.

It's worth mentioning that the shutter sound of the E-420 is likely to be an issue for anyone used to the near silent small sensor cams - you'll want to keep your Ricoh / consider the DP1 for those ultra low profile shots!

Kind Regards

Brian

I did compare the E510 with the K10d at the shop, and for me the viewfinder was night and day difference. The K10d has a beautful, big, bright viewfinder. The Oly was...um...not.

How does the live view implementation work? I am used to shooting without a viewfinder with the Dlux and wouldn't mind that in a dslr if need be. However with macro stuff I really need a decent view to check focus.

Obviously I should buy an Oly to have a 4/3 cam, my dlux for small sensor, and the Pentax for larger sensor ;)

Maggie O
6th March 2008, 12:57
What is the aspect ratio of the Pentax? The 4x3 frame of the Olympus is a deal-breaker for me.

Lili
6th March 2008, 13:01
What is the aspect ratio of the Pentax? The 4x3 frame of the Olympus is a deal-breaker for me.

The Pentax DSLR's are all 3:2, like 35mm frame Maggie :)

nostatic
6th March 2008, 13:02
3x2. Standard dslr. The K20d seems like a monster cam: 14.6mp APC sensor, fits all legacy Pentax glass, image stabilization in the body, full weather sealing, built-in sensor cleaner, up to iso 6400, etc. $1299 for the body. Significantly cheaper than the D300 or E3. Downside is "legendary" Pentax AF (which is weak in low light), but they seem to have addressed most of the niggles people had with the K10d (especially jpg engine).

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08012311pentaxk20d.asp

gromitspapa
6th March 2008, 13:37
Market price on the D300 is only about $430 more than the K20d, and it outperforms the former $4,500 flagship D2Xs in every way (except pro-body feel). CMOS sensor, outstanding LED, 6-8fps, 14-bit option, best flash system, and the best AF on the market (including 3D color tracking) makes for a professional camera in most respects. Been on the market now long enough to prove itself solid and reliable, with stellar IQ. Big selling point for me is the ability to use Capture NX on the RAW files with its U-Point tool and optional Nik filter set.

Player
6th March 2008, 15:58
gromitspapa, I'm with you on the Nikon boat. I love my D200, and I now think of my D80 as an E420 killer. ;) I'll probably skip a generation though and get a "D400."

nostatic
6th March 2008, 16:13
The good Nikkor lenses are wicked expensive though. I love the idea that you can buy a used Pentax SMC A 50/1.4 for about $150 and get great glass.

7ian7
6th March 2008, 16:34
I guess I can chip in here - having loads of both D200 / D2x / K14n / E3 / E510 images - for me the 4/3 images are less good at high ISO, but I think they always have better colour. But, for the sake of your argument, and in your words, 4/3 files are only slightly 'worse' than higher end dSLR files (although many would bicker about that). They are definitely much 'better' than ricoh files (please note the quote marks!). Which is what you'd expect, the sensors being so much larger.

Hey Jono, thanks for your response, I only caught it now. Definitely quotes around the superlatives; I know sensor drawing quality is at least on some level subjective. Though I might add this is an eye-opening link: <http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d3/h3d-1.htm> Unfortunately, the Hasselblad isn't exactly pocketable.

Nostatic/Player, I've shot with the D3 and D300 and they're both great, but the D300 gets noisy beyond 400asa, though it's still kind of appealing. The D3 is fully usable at 6400. It's wild. It's silly, but I also wish the D300 had the in-camera 4/5 crop. That's a nice shape, not far off from our 4/3 ratio.

I hope Nikon will create a 25 (50equiv) pancake lens for the D300 and a 50mm pancake for the bigger but full frame D3. Now that they're rocking it, I think an expanded lens line is imminent.

gromitspapa
6th March 2008, 17:23
The good Nikkor lenses are wicked expensive though. I love the idea that you can buy a used Pentax SMC A 50/1.4 for about $150 and get great glass.

You could say the same thing about Olympus lenses, although you get more "bang for the buck" with the 2x crop factor. A Nikkor 50mm 1.4 is an excellent lens at around $270 brand new.

7ian7
6th March 2008, 17:34
You could say the same thing about Olympus lenses, although you get more "bang for the buck" with the 2x crop factor. A Nikkor 50mm 1.4 is an excellent lens at around $270 brand new.

True; and then there's all the incredible and cheap vintage (and arguably nicer) Nikon glass that works on these cameras ... including a sweet pancake 50!

Sean_Reid
7th March 2008, 07:54
Hi there
I thought it was worth posting this here, as so many of us are preoccupied with small cameras (and the DP1 doesn't have a small sensor).
I thought the E420 announcement was interesting, here is a comparison of sizes and weights:

Olympus 420: 125 X 53 X 91 380 gm
Sigma DP1: 113 X 50 X 59 250 gm
Ricoh GX100: 112 X 25 X 58 260 gm
Ricoh GRD 1: 107 x 25 x 58 200 gm
Leica D-Lux3: 106 x 26 x 56 220 gm

The Olympus will be slightly bigger with the 50mm f2.8 pancake lens (but less than 10mm).

Of course, it has the advantage that at other times one can put on the excellent Olympus 14-42 zoom.

Food for thought - here are a couple of links:

http://fourthirds-user.com/2008/03/the_new_olympus_e420_dslr_and_25mm_pancake_lens_ex amined.php

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0803/08030501olympuse420.asp

Sorry if this is the wrong place, but I thought it would be of interest to those looking for a pocket camera with an optical viewfinder, I think the Olympus certainly qualifies.

Thanks for that post Jono. A good set of pancake lenses is just what 4/3 needs to help fulfill its promise of being a compact format.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean_Reid
7th March 2008, 07:56
The E420 does look interesting — of course if I got it I'd have to destroy it's files to get the effect I want <g>. Rather than the 25mm lens that gives an EFL of 50mm I would have preferred an EFL of 40-42mm, as I have really started to like the 40mm EFL of the Ricoh tele-converter of the GRD/GRD2. And I'd want 21 and 28mm EFL lenses, but I gather there are no small 4/3 lenses if these EFLs, are there?

I must say that I'm much more attracted by the idea of the E4120 than by the DP1, and wonder whether this is partly because I feel Olympus has always made better lenses that in the pass.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

That 40 mm EFOV has always been great for me as well. I'd love to see a 20 mm 4/3 pancake lens.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean_Reid
7th March 2008, 07:59
Holy cow, I read that part about the new E410 this morning, before work, but didn't see the part about the new 25 mm lens. That is so cool. After what, about eight years of affordable DSLR's, someone finally comes out with a lens that really makes sense, for street photography. I know Pentax had a couple pancakes, but they were still sort of odd ball focal lengths. This has got to be the package I've been waiting for. Now, if they can just add a 14 2.8 to go along with it. Good going Olympus! Anyone hear of a release date for the lens?

The focal lengths may seem strange but Pentax has definitely been the leader in pancake lenses for DSLRs. Of course, there are many pancakes for DRFs.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean_Reid
7th March 2008, 08:23
While there have been a number of posts on a number of sites to the effect that the E-420/ 25 pancake combo eliminates the need for the DP1, I don't see it that way.

We may want to get a bit of hands-on experience with both cameras before we make any calls.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean_Reid
7th March 2008, 08:29
Sadly, part of the DSLR thing is just legitimacy. When I'm shooting for other people (ie work), if I pull out the Leica I'm perceived as being an "amateur" and treated as such.

Wow, I've never had that experience at all when doing pro work with Leicas.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean_Reid
7th March 2008, 08:30
What is the aspect ratio of the Pentax? The 4x3 frame of the Olympus is a deal-breaker for me.

3:2, see my review

Cheers,

Sean

Sean_Reid
7th March 2008, 08:32
For people who like compact, though not pocketable, cameras, there's also the option of shooting an Epson R-D1 with Pancake lenses.

Cheers,

Sean

nostatic
7th March 2008, 08:40
Wow, I've never had that experience at all when doing pro work with Leicas.

Cheers,

Sean

Well, a D Lux-3 isn't quite a "real" Leica, if ya know what I mean...

Maggie O
7th March 2008, 08:40
3:2, see my review

Cheers,

Sean

Oh, I read your review, but I was being lazy and forgetful, Sean! :o:o:o:o:o

thomasl.se
7th March 2008, 14:43
That 40 mm EFOV has always been great for me as well. I'd love to see a 20 mm 4/3 pancake lens.

Cheers,

Sean
Always is two weeks for me, but the GRD-40mm clicked instantly.

The form factor of this unit is in the E420 ballpark, whereas (living in a jacket-friendly climate zone) I'm comparing the size of the DP1 to the unfitted GRD rather than to the E420; my greatest anticipation yet with '08-releases is for the DP1-40mm.

Thomas

Hypnohare
7th March 2008, 20:03
As much as the love the GR2, I would like to have the option of sometimes using a larger sensor in order to reduce the depth of field (albeit in a compact camera).

I am certain that pretty soon we will get the reviews on the DP1 and the E420 with the new pancake lens. That said, would anyone care to hazard a guess as to which camera would be better in terms of "bokeh"?

From what I understand the new Olympus lens is faster than the Sigma lens, but the Olympus sensor is slightly smaller than the Sigma (or do I have this all wrong?).

Would the Olympus or Sigma be better for shallow depth of field shots or would they be similar in performance?

kai.e.g.
8th March 2008, 01:21
For people who like compact, though not pocketable, cameras, there's also the option of shooting an Epson R-D1 with Pancake lenses.

Cheers,

Sean

I saw an RD-1 displayed seductively in a shop window in Venice a few weeks ago, still brand new. No idea of price, but I can imagine!

cam
8th March 2008, 04:37
after reading through everybody's comments, i'm actually leaning towards the DP1 again... i still don't have a "real" camera (feel very inadequate when reading about how many everybody else has) and have been loathe to choose because of the costs of various lenses (an addiction in itself). as tempting as the new Oly is, i'd be going down that path. add the noisy shutter and it's definitely a no go.

does anybody know how quiet/loud the DP1 is in operation?

helenhill
8th March 2008, 04:50
Hey CAM

Just noticed /Pham Minh Son has just put up a FS: Sigma DP1 for $850.00
She probably can answer all your Questions...
Her camera collection is wild!!
Thanks for your Private Note and hope your feeling better :p
All the Best..... helen

helenhill
8th March 2008, 04:58
I'm kinda leaning toward a lust for the RD1 OR the DP1
(I find Olympus digital menus to be over the top..... the dlux 3 & Grd's menus are so Zen / Simple & to the point .no extra baggage so to speak) Cheers! Helen

Lili
8th March 2008, 07:00
after reading through everybody's comments, i'm actually leaning towards the DP1 again... i still don't have a "real" camera (feel very inadequate when reading about how many everybody else has) and have been loathe to choose because of the costs of various lenses (an addiction in itself). as tempting as the new Oly is, i'd be going down that path. add the noisy shutter and it's definitely a no go.

does anybody know how quiet/loud the DP1 is in operation?

Cam,
Your Ricoh is very much a real camera.
And trust me, having all these cameras is just more to dust while cleaning; they deserve to be used and I feel bad for not doing so :(

cam
8th March 2008, 07:30
Cam,
Your Ricoh is very much a real camera.
And trust me, having all these cameras is just more to dust while cleaning; they deserve to be used and I feel bad for not doing so :(
though judging from one of your first 40mm shots, you dust about as much as i do... :ROTFL: (was that faster than 4.5???)

seriously, yes, both my GRD's are real -- my terminology was incorrect. i adore them and use them to the fullest and they suit my needs perfectly. guess i just suffer from size envy now and again....

thomasl.se
8th March 2008, 07:41
seriously, yes, both my GRD's are real -- my terminology was incorrect. i adore them and use them to the fullest and they suit my needs perfectly. guess i just suffer from size envy now and again....
You oghta get the GT-1; 40mm of pure pleasure! :toocool:

Guy Mancuso
8th March 2008, 08:20
after reading through everybody's comments, i'm actually leaning towards the DP1 again... i still don't have a "real" camera (feel very inadequate when reading about how many everybody else has) and have been loathe to choose because of the costs of various lenses (an addiction in itself). as tempting as the new Oly is, i'd be going down that path. add the noisy shutter and it's definitely a no go.

does anybody know how quiet/loud the DP1 is in operation?


Just remember it is the brain behind the camera not what your holding in your hand that truly counts. Much rather have a good eye than a 60k in junk in front of it because if the eye can not get the image than anything you put in front of it will not matter. Never have gear envy my dear , it is a waste of energy and talent. From what i have seen you have the talent and the eye but just get something that is comfortable and easy to control for you. The rest will will from your talent. Lesson 1 about photography and my podium speech. LOL

When I teach at the workshops i could care less what gear folks have but what I do care about is getting in there head and teach them how to shoot. No gear in the world will do that for you. The hardest thing to teach and learn is having a great eye and seeing. When you get to that point nothing matters you will get the image no matter what you have in your hands. Gear is a tool to record your vision, that's it.

jonoslack
8th March 2008, 09:39
after reading through everybody's comments, i'm actually leaning towards the DP1 again... i still don't have a "real" camera (feel very inadequate when reading about how many everybody else has) and have been loathe to choose because of the costs of various lenses (an addiction in itself). as tempting as the new Oly is, i'd be going down that path. add the noisy shutter and it's definitely a no go.

does anybody know how quiet/loud the DP1 is in operation?

LOL - everybody's reassured you . . but nobody's answered your question!
It's silent (the DP1 that is), or as near as anything silent.

As for the reassurance - I absolutely second (third, fourth) what the others have said.
I'm only too clear that I have two passtimes:
1. spending unfeasibly large amounts of money on equipment and then bellyaching about sharpness/noise/colour/contrast when looking at 100%
2. taking photographs

The second has very little to do with the first (I just hope that I'm better at it!).

Ruhayat
8th March 2008, 09:58
Jono,

I saw the 420 with pancake lens and thought it looked very nice. Having played with a 410, it's a very compact package indeed. But then it's still an SLR, isn't it, with the loud slapping sound which you can't turn off. That's the reason why I choose to shoot with small sensor cameras: you'll get more shots than an SLR user.

I often go out shooting with a friend of mine who has a gigantic (comparatively) Fuji S5 Pro SLR camera. At events and shows I can shoot away while he can't because the mirror slap sound annoys people. And at restaurants or inside malls I can still shoot away while he can't because his camera is too big. Of course, when the conditions are right, that humongous SLR can do things that neither of my small cameras (GRD, D-Lux 3 and Digilux 2) are able to.

Lili
8th March 2008, 11:13
though judging from one of your first 40mm shots, you dust about as much as i do... :ROTFL: (was that faster than 4.5???)

seriously, yes, both my GRD's are real -- my terminology was incorrect. i adore them and use them to the fullest and they suit my needs perfectly. guess i just suffer from size envy now and again....

ROFL, I dust a bit more nowadays ;)
4.5?
If your GRD's suit your needs perfectly then why worry?
Your work is stunning as it stands!
Guy is very very right; it is the photographer that matters most, without your mind and heart and eye, the camera can do Nothing.
Yes I too get tempted to buy new toys.
Part of me still longs for the GX-100.
Even tho with both add on lenses my GRD more than meets my carry camera needs.
As to the 420 or DP-1.
The former I consider maybe to replace my K100D if Pentax refuse to honor the warranty.
The latter is a very cool concept and oh so tempting.
But I need neither to shoot as I do now.
My GRD meets 70% of my needs and the S6000fd the rest.
Speaking of which I just got back from a session with the Fuji.
:)

Brian Mosley
8th March 2008, 12:06
Guy, thanks for that - I'm getting camera discussion fatigue! Time to get off-line and on-track with my photography! lol

Hope to be back soon, to share some new pictures ;)

Kind Regards

Brian

Guy Mancuso
8th March 2008, 12:28
Excellent , I love you guy's being here no doubt but get your butts off the keyboard and go shoot . Than report. That was a order BTW. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Seriously though need to find time to work your craft. If your not shooting your not learning.

Lili
8th March 2008, 13:18
Excellent , I love you guy's being here no doubt but get your butts off the keyboard and go shoot . Than report. That was a order BTW. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Seriously though need to find time to work your craft. If your not shooting your not learning.

Actually that is why I am worn out right now, shooting all over Dallas, and NOT from my car! ;)

asabet
8th March 2008, 19:23
For anyone who's interested, I put up a demo of the DP1 RAW highlight headroom here (http://www.aminfoto.com/2008/03/sigma-dp1-dynamic-range.html).

cam
9th March 2008, 00:34
Just remember it is the brain behind the camera not what your holding in your hand that truly counts. Much rather have a good eye than a 60k in junk in front of it because if the eye can not get the image than anything you put in front of it will not matter. Never have gear envy my dear , it is a waste of energy and talent. From what i have seen you have the talent and the eye but just get something that is comfortable and easy to control for you. The rest will will from your talent. Lesson 1 about photography and my podium speech. LOL

When I teach at the workshops i could care less what gear folks have but what I do care about is getting in there head and teach them how to shoot. No gear in the world will do that for you. The hardest thing to teach and learn is having a great eye and seeing. When you get to that point nothing matters you will get the image no matter what you have in your hands. Gear is a tool to record your vision, that's it.

thank you, Guy, you do make an excellent cheerleader! i can picture you with pom-poms ;)

i totally understand it's the eye and not the gear, but can you blame me for lusting in the heart after an M8??? the GRDs are perfect for me and my style i love them to death. i seriously could not have found a more perfect match.

cam
9th March 2008, 00:49
LOL - everybody's reassured you . . but nobody's answered your question!
It's silent (the DP1 that is), or as near as anything silent.

As for the reassurance - I absolutely second (third, fourth) what the others have said.
I'm only too clear that I have two passtimes:
1. spending unfeasibly large amounts of money on equipment and then bellyaching about sharpness/noise/colour/contrast when looking at 100%
2. taking photographs

The second has very little to do with the first (I just hope that I'm better at it!).

thank you for answering my question! i do a majority of my shooting where silence is very important -- even when it's not stealth (which it often is). i will sometimes take multiples of somebody until they get so bored that they finally get bored, let their guard down, and stop posing. a noisy camera would not allow this. with the GRD i can often continue shooting and they don't even realise it. this has become very important to me! (i also can't help but love the 28mm for the similar reasons. i shoot with the camera in hand or around the neck, often without looking. a wider lens makes gives my guesstimate more chance of getting what i want.)

cam
9th March 2008, 01:10
ROFL, I dust a bit more nowadays ;)
4.5?
:)
the time i go from being a kitten...:ROTFL:

seriously, all, thank you for the encouragement. i blame this awful flu for making me obviously so needy. i promise to get back into the groove and play around this week before surgery on friday. i think i've just been psychologically protecting myself from withdrawal. the doc hasn't said how long i'll be banned from shooting yet. it may just be my own tolerance for pain. knowing me, i'll pick my camera up the second the novocaine wears off....

Mitch Alland
9th March 2008, 04:16
...The hardest thing to teach and learn is having a great eye and seeing. When you get to that point nothing matters you will get the image no matter what you have in your hands. Gear is a tool to record your vision, that's it.While looking at photography monographs is useful and can give you ideas, ultimately, to improve your composition I think the best thing to do is to look at paintings because painters have to create the whole composition; their composition is completely intentinonal. The trouble is that it's difficult to look at paintings: you can look at a painting for a few minutes and think about the composition, but the only real way to understand the composition is by making a sketch of the painting that emphasizes the compositional elements. That's a huge effort that, understandably, most people do not want to undertake. I do feel, however, that the time I spent drawing and painting did more than anything else to teach me how to see, which is what you need for good photography.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Lili
9th March 2008, 07:18
the time i go from being a kitten...:ROTFL:

seriously, all, thank you for the encouragement. i blame this awful flu for making me obviously so needy. i promise to get back into the groove and play around this week before surgery on friday. i think i've just been psychologically protecting myself from withdrawal. the doc hasn't said how long i'll be banned from shooting yet. it may just be my own tolerance for pain. knowing me, i'll pick my camera up the second the novocaine wears off....

Cam, ROFL about the '4.5' now
Seriously, I understand quite well. I think this last bout of Flu was the worst I've ever had. I imagine that combined with stress from surgery would be horrid! Good luck and I hope you feel well soon and start shooting equally quickly :angel:

Lili
9th March 2008, 07:30
Perhaps a bit OT but on the subject of equipment.
When first I went digital I compared everything to my Hexar AF and found it all wanting.
In part because the Hexar is just so very good but mostly because I was trying to make digital behave like the film.
In short I was stuck looking back.
Then my friend gave me the advice to play to digitals strengths.
In other words open my Eyes to another way of Seeing.
Just as is said in Quantum Physics that the presence of an Observer changes reactions, so it is for me in this medium.
The equipment changes how I See.
It does not See for me, but, like the putative Observer it changes what
I See.

Per Ofverbeck
9th March 2008, 07:55
.......
In short I was stuck looking back.
Then my friend gave me the advice to play to digitals strengths.
In other words open my Eyes to another way of Seeing.

This, I think, is a common denominator for those who manage to use a new tool as a means of personal expression. Just like when the Leica arrived in the 1920´es; those who realized this was a new language were among those who we now remember as the top artists of the medium.


Just as is said in Quantum Physics that the presence of an Observer changes reactions, so it is for me in this medium.
...

... it sounds like you´re Schroedinger´s kitten, then....:ROTFL:

Lili
9th March 2008, 08:06
This, I think, is a common denominator for those who manage to use a new tool as a means of personal expression. Just like when the Leica arrived in the 1920´es; those who realized this was a new language were among those who we now remember as the top artists of the medium.



... it sounds like you´re Schroedinger´s kitten, then....:ROTFL:

Meow!!!!!

^_^

helenhill
9th March 2008, 08:20
Meow!!!!!

^_^

TRES COOL....in Total Agreement

helenhill
9th March 2008, 08:21
Meow!!!!!

^_^


This, I think, is a common denominator for those who manage to use a new tool as a means of personal expression. Just like when the Leica arrived in the 1920´es; those who realized this was a new language were among those who we now remember as the top artists of the medium:

TRES COOL....in TOTAL AGREEMENT

Mitch Alland
9th March 2008, 08:31
That's the point: small sensor cameras are indeed a mew format in the way Sean wrote about this on his website. And the GRD/GRD2 cameras are an innovative product. Whether the DP1 is a successful innovate product remains to me seen, as we get reports from users and reviewers. But, hey, my mind is open on this one.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Maggie O
9th March 2008, 09:00
the only real way to understand the composition is by making a sketch of the painting that emphasizes the compositional elements.

That's a great idea.

If you can draw. Which I can't. I have zero aptitude for the visual arts. (which is probably painfully apparent to anyone whom I've foisted my cat-snapping crap upon.)

popum
9th March 2008, 09:34
You don't have to be able to draw to do this. Just get a reproduction of a painting, drawing, or a photograph and use tracing paper to block out the compositional elements. you can use the same technique to study the way artists handle the bottom edge of their works, the framing, etc. It is a great way to better understand why some photographs work and others don't.

Ben Lifson uses this approach in some of his essays.

Mike

Lili
9th March 2008, 10:46
Mitch's suggestion about sketching is extremely apt.
A very good way to learn.
As to the OT; I have gone back and forth on the DP-1.
Seeing actual images shots by those on fickr and elsewhere not some anonymous review or posting is reassuring.
I will await more in-depth reviews before deciding, but as it stands now I am tempted.

jonoslack
9th March 2008, 10:55
Mitch's suggestion about sketching is extremely apt.
A very good way to learn.
As to the OT; I have gone back and forth on the DP-1.
Seeing actual images shots by those on fickr and elsewhere not some anonymous review or posting is reassuring.
I will await more in-depth reviews before deciding, but as it stands now I am tempted.

Schroedinger´s kitten eh? terribly apt I'd have said.
And, as the OP er, it's appropriate to comment.
I must say, I'm much too lazy to sketch paintings, but I took up photography at a time when I was too busy to continue painting - so it's always been a 'substitute' and I'm pretty sure that whatever 'eye' I have was developed way back when.

As for the DP-1, like you, I dither backward and forward; perhaps the biggest thing against it was that when handling it I didn't fall in love with it

What IS so great about this forum, and this place in particular is the idea that the small sensor camera isn't simply a compromise, but a tool in it's own right . . . . not sure where that leaves the DP-1 though (with it's larger sensor).

nostatic
9th March 2008, 11:54
my g/f is a sculptor/visual artist and we were having a related discussion the other night. She said my photos are much more "painting" than "sculpture." Something about focus on texture and tending to flatten things out as opposed to being more about spatial. I had never really thought about it that way before, but she's also an art prof so she does think about those things...

Brian Mosley
9th March 2008, 13:21
Hello everyone,

first a picture from today... to show that I'm good to my word ;)

Sony R1
http://www.pbase.com/bmosley/image/93967785/original.jpg

I agree completely with Jono - the DP1 had a distinct 'unfinished' feel to me at the FoI show... but there are some fantastic images showing up. On the other hand, I'm quite fascinated by the images I'm seeing the GR-DII and GX100 produce and I'm sold on small sensor cams for ultra compact and quiet operation, ultra sharp and deep dof... I could just as easily go the GX100 or GR-DII route as the DP1.

And just to keep on-topic, a small sensor cam shot with the Panasonic LX1... from this afternoon.
http://www.pbase.com/bmosley/image/93968294/original.jpg

Kind Regards

Brian

jonoslack
9th March 2008, 13:56
Hello everyone,


http://www.pbase.com/bmosley/image/93968294/original.jpg

Kind Regards

Brian
Are we to assume that this is a self portrait?:p
The R1 seems more and more attractive as time goes by - do you use yours very much?

scott kirkpatrick
9th March 2008, 14:24
You don't have to be able to draw to do this. Just get a reproduction of a painting, drawing, or a photograph and use tracing paper to block out the compositional elements. you can use the same technique to study the way artists handle the bottom edge of their works, the framing, etc. It is a great way to better understand why some photographs work and others don't.

Ben Lifson uses this approach in some of his essays.

Mike

Time for a link. Go here. (http://www.rawworkflow.com/making_pictures/index.html)

11 lectures, more or less, with great examples and a lot to think about.

scott

Brian Mosley
9th March 2008, 14:26
Well, Jono there is a distinct similarity ;) but no... it's a close up of this sculpture :
http://www.pbase.com/bmosley/image/87202765/original.jpg

The guy in the top right!

I haven't used my R1 nearly enough... it's a classic camera - a bit like a lightweight E-3 with a D2x sensor and fixed 12-60mm lens - but perfectly silent.

Kind Regards

Brian

Brian Mosley
9th March 2008, 14:34
Whoops, meant to post this version of the sculpture :
http://www.pbase.com/bmosley/image/89126595/original.jpg

Kind Regards

Brian

Terry
9th March 2008, 14:38
I love version 2!

clay stewart
9th March 2008, 15:48
I love version 2!

Me too. Great shot.

jonoslack
9th March 2008, 15:55
I agree
version 2 is wonderful - is the guy standing the same as the one in the wheelchair in version one (certainly looks like it).

helenhill
9th March 2008, 16:32
Whoops, meant to post this version of the sculpture :
http://www.pbase.com/bmosley/image/89126595/original.jpg

Kind Regards

Brian

Wow.....ABsolutely Superb
other worldliness......Divine :clap: helen

Lili
9th March 2008, 18:10
Wow.....ABsolutely Superb
other worldliness......Divine :clap: helen

i completely agree!!!

Maggie O
9th March 2008, 18:22
Whoops, meant to post this version of the sculpture :
http://www.pbase.com/bmosley/image/89126595/original.jpg

Kind Regards

Brian

That is five kinds of cool! :clap::clap::clap:

Hypnohare
11th March 2008, 18:45
After reading these posts I was very curious about the new model Olympus!

Today I had the opportunity to handle the Olympus E-410 which is physically almost identical to the soon to be released E-420.

The E-410 seems like it is well made and I really liked the user interface when in manual mode. It is much smaller and lighter than most DSLRs, but it is still a DSLR. I took the lens off the camera and even in that state, it looked like it was almost twice the volume of the Canon G9.

So even if you use the Olympus with the new Zuiko 25mm (50mm EFOV) f 2.8 Pancake lens on the body, it is still NOT a camera you can slip into your pocket!

The Olympus is a very nice, easy to carry DSLR and frankly I am very tempted to purchase one. But it is in a totally different category than the compact cameras that we know love (Ricoh GR II, Leica D-LUX 3, Canon G9, Etc.).

Therefore because of the form factor alone, I just don't see the Olympus as being any sort of competition to the Sigma DP1. With that big APS-C sensor the Sigma seems to have created a whole new category: the medium sized sensor - pocket camera.


---------------------------------

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

Brian Mosley
12th March 2008, 00:37
The big question for me is, will the improved good light performance of the DP1's sensor over the GR-DII justify the 2x price difference and backwards leap in user interface?

If I want pocketability I think the Ricoh wins, and if I want large sensor performance the E-420 wins... both are much more mature & polished cams IMHO. The DP1 is squeezed on both sides but could still compete - at half the RRP.

Kind Regards

Brian

Hypnohare
12th March 2008, 08:10
I agree with you Brian. The Ricoh and Olympus seem to be much more mature products.

The DP1 looks like a version 1.0 product. It's a brilliant first step, but I will wait for the second version to be produced before I will seriously consider purchasing one.

I've learned this lesson the hard way, that when it comes to automobiles or consumer electronics, it is usually best to avoid the first generations products. There are always problems in the hardware or UI, that the designers never foresaw.

My GR2 is only a few months old and I have a long way to go before I fully understand and utilize its capabilities. For the rest of the year, I will keep taking pictures and studying my images to see where I went wrong (technically and artistically). When I have mastered the Ricoh (to my satisfaction) then I might consider getting a different camera to expand my image palette.

In the meantime I'll keep my ears open to hear what I users of the DP1 think of their new camera.

---------------------

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

cam
12th March 2008, 09:08
I've learned this lesson the hard way, that when it comes to automobiles or consumer electronics, it is usually best to avoid the first generations products. There are always problems in the hardware or UI, that the designers never foresaw.

i always have to smile when i hear that opinion and, trust me, i hear it often! after working in sales and for an electronics manufacturer for several years (decades?), i see things the other way around. whilst the first generation product may have flaws, it is almost always (if not always) built the best. sure, second generation products smooth out the kinks and whatnot and add a little cosmetic glitz. but manufacturers also learn how many corners they can cut and get cost down in production so they reach their ultimate goal -- make money!

Maggie O
12th March 2008, 09:15
Cam's post reminds me of the 2nd generation iBooks- I got one of the first ones, and it had a gorgeous clear polycarbonate case that was painted white on the inside, giving it a 3-D "ice" look. By the time Apple moved the iBooks to the G4, the case was molded white plastic, not nearly as cool looking.

Lili
12th March 2008, 09:59
I go back and forth on this.
I far prefer smaller and/or lighter cameras.
The DP-1 does make it on the size front.
But we keep seeing both negative and positive feedback on it.
I very much hope the local Sigma Dealer, Competitive Camera gets one in stock.
Because I feel the only way to judge it will be to handle one.

cam
12th March 2008, 10:39
I go back and forth on this.
I far prefer smaller and/or lighter cameras.
The DP-1 does make it on the size front.
But we keep seeing both negative and positive feedback on it.
I very much hope the local Sigma Dealer, Competitive Camera gets one in stock.
Because I feel the only way to judge it will be to handle one.

i'm doing the same. my dealer actually has it in stock, but i'm waiting til next week to go.... i actually was still kind of up in the air with my original GRD purchase until i handled it against the GX100. had no idea what i was doing in either case, but the GRD just felt right... if the DP1 feels wrong initially, then maybe that is that as it seems to be with others. there's something about the pics that tempt me, though. and so many of my pics are taken when people (even those i know) aren't aware, that near silence is a necessity.

i took fantastic pics of a friend today in therapy, who was just glowing with the admission that she may be in love.... i have to respect her privacy so i can't share them (sorry). i never would have gotten them had she been able to hear the shutter (when she did, i got a big black exposure where her hand conveniently met my lens ;)

SimonL
15th March 2008, 01:32
Some interesting comparisons here:

http://ricoh.grfan.net/showthread.php?p=28497#post28497

Sean_Reid
15th March 2008, 05:48
While looking at photography monographs is useful and can give you ideas, ultimately, to improve your composition I think the best thing to do is to look at paintings because painters have to create the whole composition; their composition is completely intentinonal. The trouble is that it's difficult to look at paintings: you can look at a painting for a few minutes and think about the composition, but the only real way to understand the composition is by making a sketch of the painting that emphasizes the compositional elements. That's a huge effort that, understandably, most people do not want to undertake. I do feel, however, that the time I spent drawing and painting did more than anything else to teach me how to see, which is what you need for good photography.

—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

The sketching, as Ben Lifson has often written about, is enormously useful. In the early 1990s, I spent a lot of time sketching from life and from Old Master drawings.

Cheers,

Sean

Sean_Reid
15th March 2008, 05:54
You don't have to be able to draw to do this. Just get a reproduction of a painting, drawing, or a photograph and use tracing paper to block out the compositional elements. you can use the same technique to study the way artists handle the bottom edge of their works, the framing, etc. It is a great way to better understand why some photographs work and others don't.

Ben Lifson uses this approach in some of his essays.

Mike

Here's the link: http://www.rawworkflow.com/making_pictures/index.html

I'd recommend reading all 11 essays, they're some of the most valuable information on the web for serious photographers.

Edit: Just saw that Scott already posted this.

Cheers,

Sean

asabet
15th March 2008, 09:37
Some interesting comparisons here:

http://ricoh.grfan.net/showthread.php?p=28497#post28497

Thanks for the link Simon. Very interesting! There's a good section with the DP1 compared to the GRD II. I put links to English translations here: http://www.seriouscompacts.com/2008/03/euyoungs-six-part-sigma-sigma-dp1.html

Regards,
Amin

thomasl.se
15th March 2008, 10:58
http://www.seriouscompacts.com/2008/03/euyoungs-six-part-sigma-sigma-dp1.html

M-hm, all the way from the ceremonial box opening. Popcorn, big time.

Thanks

Joel.Gottlieb
16th March 2008, 11:22
Some wonderful files from DP1 at ISO 800 by a pro--
http://saidkarlsson.com/blog/?page_id=179

Joel

Lili
16th March 2008, 12:36
Some wonderful files from DP1 at ISO 800 by a pro--
http://saidkarlsson.com/blog/?page_id=179

Joel

Saids work is really quite nice, all RAW of course and pp'd.
But gorgeous quality

Brian Mosley
16th March 2008, 13:28
Superb shots, I'm a sucker for great photography :)

I think I'll bite the bullet, and get one as an upgrade for my LX1.

Kind Regards

Brian

nostatic
16th March 2008, 15:02
Some wonderful files from DP1 at ISO 800 by a pro--
http://saidkarlsson.com/blog/?page_id=179

Joel

He had me until this comment:

"For pros looking for something to back up their SLR however, im dead certain that the DP1 will be a huge success, and hopefully the other manufacturers will follow in Sigmas footsteps. That would finally make digital compacts a useful category of cameras."

:rolleyes:

Lili
17th March 2008, 05:09
He had me until this comment:

"For pros looking for something to back up their SLR however, im dead certain that the DP1 will be a huge success, and hopefully the other manufacturers will follow in Sigmas footsteps. That would finally make digital compacts a useful category of cameras."

:rolleyes:

Taken in the context that he wants a tiny camera that 'draws' like the bigger ones, that comment makes sense.
Of course, for those of us that prefer the look of the small sensor then it's a non sequitor
I note that despite the slow f4 maximum aperture (examining the exif shows he uses f4 a lot) he is getting OOF effects in many shots where my GRD at f2.8-2.4 would still appear sharp.
So the larger sensor and longer focal length is making itself seen even in these small web shots, whether that is Good Thing is very much a matter of personal taste.
Different Brushes, Different Palettes :)

Maggie O
17th March 2008, 08:38
A DP1, with its large sensor, can back up a DSLR. A GR-D II, with its small sensor, compliments a DSLR.

It makes perfect sense, no matter what your personal preference may be.

bcf
17th March 2008, 10:47
A DP1, with its large sensor, can back up a DSLR. A GR-D II, with its small sensor, compliments a DSLR.

Compliments, I don't know... Complements, sure. :)

Maggie O
17th March 2008, 10:57
[redacted expletive]

I hate it when I do that.