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Thread: 1Ds MK III test!

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    1Ds MK III test!

    I was invited by Uwe Steinmueller of Digital Outback Photo to join him in a shooting session with the new Canon 1Ds MK III, and of course this was an offer I couldn't refuse! We met at our usual location for testing new cameras or lenses, an abandoned building in Alviso, CA. We choose this particular building because it offers a multi-detailed surface texture to help ascertain resolution performance as well as a range of lighting and shadow values to help ascertain dynamic range and noise performance. Note that both Uwe and I prefer to evaluate camera performance by making “real” images instead of shooting test targets. I realize my evaluation methods will not satisfy die-hard pixel-peepers as it is not a fully controlled, scientific test. However, I feel it is a fair way to initially compare different cameras since it’s more representative how I use them in everyday shooting situations. Finally, please understand this is not intended to be a complete or even conclusive evaluation, but rather just my initial impressions about file quality. That disclaimer out of the way, here are my initial impressions.

    The camera looks just like the 1D3 and the control layout appears to function identically too. I will leave specific feature discussions to others as I did not have enough time to fully explore all the operational aspects of the new body. Suffice it to say, I was able to set everything I wanted with it without having to resort to the owners manual; in other words, this is a pretty intuitive camera to use.

    I shot the camera against a Canon 1Ds MK II, and a Canon 5D. All three cameras were shot at ISO 200, 400, 800, and 1600, and a tripod was used for every shot. When I compare cameras, I like to use the same lens on each camera --- and preferably one known to be a good performer. In this case, we used the excellent Canon 135 f2 L lens at an aperture of f8.

    Okay, enough babble as I’m sure most of you have already skipped down to the images anyway <GRIN>.

    All images presented here are the ISO 400 captures and here is the full frame capture area for reference:



    Next the crops, but I need to clarify how I processed them. First off, I used Adobe Camera Raw for all conversions and processed all files identically except for sharpening. I chose “Cloudy” WB as we had a few light clouds in the area and exposure slider was kept at zero. I did however crank fill up to 30 and set blacks to 4 to help better see noise and into the shadows under the roof. I attempted to optimize the capture sharpening settings for each camera and used the following for these conversions: 5D, amount 30, detail 25; 1Ds2, amount 35, detail 30; 1Ds3, amount 50(!) and detail 50! (EDIT! I forgot to mention radius -- on ALL files it was set to the ACR minimum, 0.5 --- sorry for that omission! Also, I should mention I am using ACR 4.3.) I will use this opportunity to mention something that should now be obvious and likely disappoint more than a few of you: the 1Ds3 appears to have a quite strong AA filter, clearly stronger than the 1Ds2’s…

    Here is the 1Ds3 crop:



    Here is a similar crop from the 1Ds2:



    And here is the crop from the 5D:



    In looking at these ISO 400 crops, a few things become apparent. First, noise on the 1Ds3 is quite good – especially for a camera of that resolution – and comparable IMO to the 5D’s. Moreover, by cranking detail up to 50 to extract as much as possible, I actually enhance noise to a certain degree which is a disadvantage to the smaller pixels. In my crops, for some reason the 5D (and 1Ds2) appear a bit brighter in the shadows having used the same shadow and fill settings on both, but they are also showing a bit more defined noise; we’d expect this from being brighter, so I'd not infer too much from it. Comparing noise at the other ISO’s with more normal detail settings, I’d say the 1Ds3 appears to have noise characteristics similar to the 5D (the 1Ds2's are a bit higher) which is quite good for a camera of this resolution. While 200 and 400 will be the sweet spots for maximum performance from the 1Ds3, 800 is still quite usable, but in my opinion 1600 starts to get noisy enough to occlude detail, and moreover, showed a blocking up (loss of DR) in the shadows. Overall, I think the 1Ds3 shows very good noise performance for such a high-resolution camera.

    As for detail, we can see the 1Ds3 has a very real advantage. Looking at the ends of the roof tiles, peeling paint chips and grain in the vertical piece of bare gray wood, we simply see more texture in each of these than either of the other Canon cameras offer. The telltale is the sand in the first main row old tan roof shingles --- only the 1Ds3 really resolves the granularity of the sand embedded in the surface of them. Obviously, more megapixels are working here. Suffice it to say there is detail to be had. But given the 1Ds2 was better than many Canon lenses, it is safe to assume that to get the most the 1Ds3 has to offer, one will need to use the best lenses available, proper capture technique and a sturdy tripod when shutter speeds dip.

    The real question for many will be how significant is the 1Ds3’s detail difference? I’m sure this will be debated rigorously on the forums for the next year at least – and the irony is the answer is probably different for each of us, depending on how we'd use the camera. Nevertheless, I took the liberty of generating a few additional comparative crops from the 5D to let you each draw your own initial impressions about relative performance as it may pertain to you. I present them here with limited dialog:

    First is a crop showing the 5D covering the same portion of the image the 1Ds3 captured. It is 700 x 583 pixels compared to the 1Ds3’s 900 x 750 above:



    Here are the crops super-imposed to show the relative coverage differences:



    Here is the smaller 5D crop above uprezzed to the same size as the 1Ds3:



    And for comparative viewing convenience, here is the 1Ds3 crop again:



    Finally, here are the two same-size crops viewed at 50%. I have found this 50% view to be a simpler and accurate method compared to the screen captures I usually post for conveying how detail might compare in a final print. It’s obviously not a perfect method, but coupled with the other crops it’s about the best I can do for you via web view -- again, I leave you to draw your own conclusions. Note that these crops are close approximations to actual sections from prints of about 16"x24":





    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Subscriber robsteve's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Jack:

    Your detail extraction is creating those brush stroke type artifacts that RAWShooter used to have. Do they go away at lower detail extraction settings?

    Robert

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Jack,
    Thanks for sharing these. I prefer this type of "real life" testing to some of the more clinical approaches. Even though there is a visible difference in the detail the 1Ds3 captures, I doubt I'd upgrade from either the 1Ds2 or 5D from what I've seen here. Taking into consideration that you used one of Canon's sharpest lenses I suspect the difference will be less noticeable with some of their less stellar performers. Anyway, good test and interesting viewing.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Geez a thicker or stronger AA filter . That might just save folks a lot of money right there. last thing I would want is a stronger AA filter coming from leica with none this puts the brakes on pretty fast about the 1dsMKIII. Also sounds like the MF killer just expired itself. Hate to be negative but this don't look so hot really and was expecting much better than the 1dsMKII which it is slightly but maybe not enough to justify the replacement of it and even more strange is the DR seems better in the 1dsMKII. Hmmm
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Thanks David! I try to present a review others can draw conclusions that are appropriate to their needs from.

    Absolutely Guy! The file that comes straight out of the camera is horribly soft, like twice as soft as the 1Ds2 before it. If Canon listened to its users they would have created an alternate version without an AA filter at all. Not sure why they continue to insist on such strong AA in the first place, and unortunately it's the deal breaker for my needs... Bummer.

    The DR thing is interesting too, and I aree with your assessment, but I wouldn't infer too much from my processing here. With more time and more files, I suspect I could improve on it somewhat, and possibly glean a bit more detail to boot.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    It is for me too my friend. Jack the issue is the number of Canon users is very large and any Moire that may show up on a canon would absolutely be a PR nightmare. They have to play it safe and my GUESS is the Moire without a strong AA filter on it could have been a big issue.

    You know my feelings on AA filters and reason i moved away from canon. And the last thing we want to be doing is adding more sharpening.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Thanks Jack, you just saved me a ton of cash. That AA filter is the kiss of death as far as I am concerned.... that is why I dumped my 1DsII, couldn't stand the AA filter and what it did to the detail in my images.... Ahem, Leica, time to ship an R10 <Grin>.

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Thanks for posting these, Jack.

    Seems to be not such a big improvement over the 1D2 as i hoped. Just wondering if you have seen and can comment on the comparison images of the 1Ds3, Mamiya ZD, and P21 posted on dpreview? In that test set the 1Ds3 puts up a strong show in those images in terms of detail, but lags behind in color rendition, tonality, and DR (at least IMHO).

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    I think the issue of improvement is going to be subjective. I think the improvement is significant. My plan is to compare the 1DsmkIII with the aptus65/Hassy H2. Jack.. want to join in? I am out of town until Monday afternoon but could do during the week at Stanford

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Jack, thanks for posting images with the 1ds3.


    Win, Lose or Draw; Phil Holland has a 1Ds3 test and commentary up here:

    http://www.artbyphil.com/phfx/photog...iew/index.html

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    Thanks for posting these, Jack.

    Seems to be not such a big improvement over the 1D2 as i hoped. Just wondering if you have seen and can comment on the comparison images of the 1Ds3, Mamiya ZD, and P21 posted on dpreview? In that test set the 1Ds3 puts up a strong show in those images in terms of detail, but lags behind in color rendition, tonality, and DR (at least IMHO).
    I'm reluctant to comment on cmoparisons I haven't done myself unless I know who did the raw processing... The reason is processing can make a HUGE difference in how a file renders and therefore can skew final results. That said, I'm not even positive MY processing of the 1Ds3 files was "perfect" either...
    Jack
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by mark1958 View Post
    I think the issue of improvement is going to be subjective. I think the improvement is significant. My plan is to compare the 1DsmkIII with the aptus65/Hassy H2. Jack.. want to join in? I am out of town until Monday afternoon but could do during the week at Stanford
    Would love to join you for that Mark!
    Jack
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Just to add some fodder for discussion, here is a similar crop from the M8. I was shooting from the same position with the 90mm Summarit, so the effective focal is shorter and thus the area covered is a bit larger, which is a disadvantage to the M. Also note I shot the Summarit at f5.6, not f8 like the Canon shots, though I suspect this is a non-iossue for these comparisons. I did process the M8 file similarly to the Canon files, and the base exposure was at ISO 320 instead of 400.

    Frankly, I am amazed at how well the M8 holds up against the Canon's. Of particular note is the sand in the roof shingles --- it is resolved better here than the either the 5D or the 1Ds2 crops, and really not too far off the 1Ds3 image! On the downside, pushing up the shadows to the same level of shadow brightness definitely shows more visible noise with the M8. I show them here pushed to the same value as the Canons were, but this renders the shadows darker, so it's a tradeoff on how to best display it.

    Here is the M8 cropped area:



    Here is the M8 uprezzed to match the 1Ds3 image size, then downsized to the 50% print view per above:



    For viewing convenience, here are the 5D and 1Ds3 print crops again:



    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Whew was sweating that one having the M8 , looks like my money spent went in the right direction

    okay having a little fun with the smiley's.

    Canon hopefully can answer to double the mpx and less the quality and more money. Hmmmm

    Not sure if I was a Canon shooter i would give up the 1dsMKII or even the 5D for the new 1dsMKIII. Given the same 135mm lens and increase the AA filter makes no sense to me. If anything canon should have made it more MF style and made the AA filter even weaker than the rest of the line. Maybe i am reading this wrong but i am going to wait for the Leica R10 without a AA filter
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Perhaps the 3 in. LCD would be worth the upgrade for some.

    Jack, was the viewfinder bigger or brighter than the Mark II?

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    maybe so . Okay Jack give us the skinny partner. YOUR impressions
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by cmb_ View Post
    Jack, was the viewfinder bigger or brighter than the Mark II?
    Not that I noticed
    Jack
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    maybe so . Okay Jack give us the skinny partner. YOUR impressions
    ? Leave it to you Mancuso to ask me to hang my true thoughts out in public on what's probably the most awaited camera ever... Love you too Bud! LOLOLOL!

    Bottom line? I'm anxious to see what the R10 files look like.

    While we're on this subject, I got to spend some time with a friend's Nikon D3 files today too... That result? I still want to see what the R10 files look like.

    Seriously, for the way I'd use the camera, I don't see enough reason to make the jump to either one of these hotly anticipated cameras. While they both can make great images, I simply don't see them being significantly enough better than what I already own. But that's me...

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!



    You know i was going to hang you out to dry. LOL


    hell it's been done to me so many times , i just had to pass the buck

    Just love these smiley's. i have yet to get any work done playing with them all day
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    thanks jack for taking the time to do this....all work, no fun at all, right? i am not sure if it is me or do all these shots show really strong noise removal/watercolor mushiness that i usually don't see in canon or (definitely not) m8 files....did you process all these in LR? i rezed up a m8 file in GF the other day to see what a 30x40 @ 360dpi print would look like and it seemed smoother then these files....i almost always shoot base iso, but that can't be the difference....what kind of sharpening was applied? sorry but it alway comes down to the same thing when comparing webjepgs....i prefer comparing the raw files myself...any way you could put them up somewhere?

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    I think what you're seeing is a result of my pushshing the shadow values so aggerssively with the "fill" slider in the raw converter --- a lot of noise springs up when you do that. I do this on purpose with test images to show noise character in the shadows, but it's not something I would with a normal image...
    Jack
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Jack,

    I have to say you have just saved me some money here. I had been thinking about the 1DsMkIII and moving my 5D to a back up roll but now I see no reason not to just see what the 5D replacement has. Right now my 5D and M8 have been a great kit for my first two jobs for a regional magazine. So, I can stop thinking about the 1DsMkIII and think about getting more business.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Thanks very much for this tactful assessment, Jack. It is always a pleasure to read your views as well as those of Guy.

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    Jack,

    I have to say you have just saved me some money here. I had been thinking about the 1DsMkIII and moving my 5D to a back up roll but now I see no reason not to just see what the 5D replacement has. Right now my 5D and M8 have been a great kit for my first two jobs for a regional magazine. So, I can stop thinking about the 1DsMkIII and think about getting more business.
    John,
    That exactly the right way to look at it.
    The dslr is simply a tool and if it works perfectly for your needs giving the clients you work for the image quality they need, then there is no need to 'upgrade' it to a BIGGER and 'apparently better' body.
    The $$'s you do not spend are better spent elsewhere...portfolios, websites, that lens you always wanted, etc.

    Marc

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Wow!
    This forum looks like D3 forum on DP review more and more...
    I don't know what makes people hate Canon?
    All this "saving $$" because AA filter sucks, sounds so funny. Sorry.
    I thought Digital Photography grew pass pixel peeping. I guess, not yet.
    People, be honest: how many of Leica users were really planning to dump M gear for 1Ds III? Me including.
    Yes, I have 1Ds II and Leica M8. I hope to get my 1Ds III by March... So, I am ready to get killed now...
    Rant end.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Ralph and Marc great to see you both here . Thanks for coming aboard. I would love to say i can use the M8 for everything which is what i am doing right now and at times it's a struggle but I get the work done and my clients are happy but I agree there is a point you have to say WTF am i thinking of jumping on something that really does not raise the bar that much. The 1dsMKII from what i am seeing and most of you are is the gain may not be worth the pain of upgrading. Now my M8 i would love FF and 16 or 18 mpx to really get it over the top end and i think at that point no reason to go any further in 35mm but honestly guy's and girls i have no clients jumping down my throat to give them any bigger. I agree with Marc spend your money on getting the best glass you can, you can NEVER go wrong buying the best glass. that will carry you much further than any body. lets face facts it's a box with a sensor and the only real way to improve you existing sensor is add better glass to it.

    I just had a forum member over yesterday and was talking about value in lenses. The first question i asked was what lens is your lens cap on the M8 and it is the 28 mm for him like it is for me. Than my reply was buy the best damn one you can get because that maybe 70 percent of what you shoot. Than i said get the 28 F2 cron which is the best 28 leica makes in my book and even if you have to buy it new than it is worth it because it will be the last lens you sell if you switched systems or something. i have been through this so many times and when you get a system there is maybe 3 lenses that you will drop dead over giving them up so put your money there the rest of the set is a set that you can buy and sell until you find something you like but put your real money on those never get rid of out of my dead cold hands.

    You know we are always looking for the holy grail in bodies but honestly there is no such thing, there will always be a new one and there will always be one you like for 80 percent of what it does and the other 20 percent is worthless to you. That is just the way it is. Look at photography like this . lenses you can put in your bag forever and last until they close the lid on you , you can NEVER say that with a digital body. This 1dsMKII makes les and less sense to me when i guy is sitting on a 1dsMKII or 5d and there is not much gain at 8 k for a new one I just stood on the box and gave you my lecture but i think it helps think like this.

    Not saying the 1dsMKKII is a bad camera and not get it but what i am saying is be real careful before dropping 8k down on maybe a marginal increase , you have to weigh your options and needs very carefully. Canon does not make huge changes at once and there small but sometimes it maybe worth skipping a generation. Flame suit on but be nice today it's my BD
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by sisoje View Post
    Wow!
    This forum looks like D3 forum on DP review more and more...
    I don't know what makes people hate Canon?
    All this "saving $$" because AA filter sucks, sounds so funny. Sorry.
    I thought Digital Photography grew pass pixel peeping. I guess, not yet.
    People, be honest: how many of Leica users were really planning to dump M gear for 1Ds III? Me including.
    Yes, I have 1Ds II and Leica M8. I hope to get my 1Ds III by March... So, I am ready to get killed now...
    Rant end.
    I'll cut you some slack because it's your first post here and maybe you don't know me. For the record, I don't think I bashed Canon at all in my review. In fact to the contrary, I simply posted pics and let others draw their own conclusions. Granted, I did share MY thoughts when I was pressed for my opinion later in the thread, but made it clear they were MY thoughts... Moreover, your comment about M8 shooters switching and hating Canon is off-base too as I am currently a Canon shooter and already have lots of Canon glass. I personally would LOVE to have a newer, more cool Canon DSLR body, but I don't want to pay through the nose for what appeear to be limited gains FOR MY USES. Though I respect OTHER folks uses and needs will be different, and this new camera may be the ticket for them.

    So for me, just like John I'll be waiting to see what else arrives before making a decision.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Eisenberg View Post
    Thanks very much for this tactful assessment, Jack. It is always a pleasure to read your views as well as those of Guy.

    Hi Ralph! Great to have you here and thanks for the kind words!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    PS: HAPPY BIRTHDAY GUY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Jack
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by sisoje View Post
    Wow!
    This forum looks like D3 forum on DP review more and more...
    I don't know what makes people hate Canon?
    All this "saving $$" because AA filter sucks, sounds so funny. Sorry.
    I thought Digital Photography grew pass pixel peeping. I guess, not yet.
    People, be honest: how many of Leica users were really planning to dump M gear for 1Ds III? Me including.
    Yes, I have 1Ds II and Leica M8. I hope to get my 1Ds III by March... So, I am ready to get killed now...
    Rant end.
    Hate Canon? I've been a Canon user for 3 years and have about 8 L's. I use my M8 with the Canon. What I saw here was a reason to not spend money on a tool which would not produce a major edge for the kind of work I do. If I save by keeping my 5D and waiting for it's next generation, I can buy the Canon 14/2.8 MkII to use now for a book project on hand painted churches of Texas.

    It's not a question of 'hate.' It's the right tool at the right price point for the job.

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
    Mike Johnston


  31. #31
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    i agree John , I don hate canon , they are the single best OEM for the photo industry at large so there place in the market is huge and it drives others to succeed . What i don't like about them is they just keep leading on small increments every 18 months so people feel the need to upgrade at canons money making machine , which is fine for them but it does hurt there users in the long run. Frankly i think canon with there business module hurt themseleves with the 5D because it turned out to be one of there best camera's and too close to the 1dsMKII. and most folks caught on and bought the 5d and canon lost revenue in the 1dsMKII. This is the downfall of small increase in quality of file that they did not count on.

    This test Jack just did shows clearly that case in point
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Sisjoe,
    Lot's of guys here shoot both Leica and Canon because each system has it's advantages. I switched from Canon because I pretty much lost the need for the long lenses and AF for what I'm now shooting. I'd switch back in a heartbeat (and save a ton of money to boot) if the Canon system could deliver what I'm now getting from my Leica and Contax systems. For me it's more about the glass than the body. I don't see anybody bashing Canon here... more like disappointment that they aren't moving in the direction that many of this forum's members would like them to, me included.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Whew was sweating that one having the M8 , looks like my money spent went in the right direction

    okay having a little fun with the smiley's.

    Canon hopefully can answer to double the mpx and less the quality and more money. Hmmmm

    Not sure if I was a Canon shooter i would give up the 1dsMKII or even the 5D for the new 1dsMKIII. Given the same 135mm lens and increase the AA filter makes no sense to me. If anything canon should have made it more MF style and made the AA filter even weaker than the rest of the line. Maybe i am reading this wrong but i am going to wait for the Leica R10 without a AA filter
    Same for me, the M8 is doing great here! It proves also that even the difference of 10MP versus 21MP is not giving automatically double quality, because it very well depends also on the lenses. And having said that, the M8 shot was "only" taken with the Summarit 90 and not the 2/90 ASPH, which would have even been better!

    Glad I also am full on the M8 train :-)) (and E-3 now as well)

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    It's a little disappointing they keep insisting on that AA filter. But I'm preaching to the choir here I guess.

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Peter maybe when you get a chance on the other systems side a little Olympus E3 chat would be nice. BTW Welcome and nice to have you here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    It's a little disappointing they keep insisting on that AA filter. But I'm preaching to the choir here I guess.
    The thing I find strange is they made it stronger when folks been asking to make it weaker.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Peter maybe when you get a chance on the other systems side a little Olympus E3 chat would be nice. BTW Welcome and nice to have you here.
    I will definitely do so!

    BTW, are there still places free on your "Arches and Canyonlands National Parks" workshop? Maybe I would be in the states this time and then I would join ;.)

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Jack, thanks for taking the time to post the test results. Looks like my DMR will be with me at least until next Photokina, or whenever the R10 hits the market.

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I will definitely do so!

    BTW, are there still places free on your "Arches and Canyonlands National Parks" workshop? Maybe I would be in the states this time and then I would join ;.)
    We have 6 spaces right now and would love to fill them soon. This is going to be a awesome workshop, I can just feel it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Jack, thanks for taking the time to post the test results. Looks like my DMR will be with me at least until next Photokina, or whenever the R10 hits the market.
    My pleasure Doug! My next thought is to perhaps pay the money and have MaxMax remove the AA filter from my 5D and re-shoot that building. I'd suspect to gain something with that conversion, may get a bump up to almost 1Ds2 levels. However, what I *really* would hope for is the extra sparkle in the pixels that AAfilterless sensors seem to deliver
    Jack
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    will let you know when i get back... travel in chicago / MN is not good this time of year

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by sisoje View Post
    Wow!
    This forum looks like D3 forum on DP review more and more...
    I don't know what makes people hate Canon?
    All this "saving $$" because AA filter sucks, sounds so funny. Sorry.
    I thought Digital Photography grew pass pixel peeping. I guess, not yet.
    People, be honest: how many of Leica users were really planning to dump M gear for 1Ds III? Me including.
    Yes, I have 1Ds II and Leica M8. I hope to get my 1Ds III by March... So, I am ready to get killed now...
    Rant end.
    my personal opinion is that in general the 5D is the best digital camera ever built...the ease of use combined with image/file quality/speed all at that price is just amazing....
    but: if i only compare the quality of files (not taking into consideration other factors....i mean i would never recommend the m8 to anyone who just wants a camera, it is too much of a niche product) so only comparing raw files, the 1dsIII does not cut it IMO....if someone needs to print 20x30, a DMF back is the only real way to go....on everything up to 11x14 i doubt there is a big difference between the 5D, 1dsII or dsIII...IMO the m8 provides a better 11x14 then all three...this is totally personal....it provides more of what i look for in a print....does not in any way make the canons bad cameras....
    there is a comparison between the dsII, the zd and the P21 in LL and the P21 wins easily....and relly does not cost much more then the dsIII...
    anyway..i guess if i was heavily invested in canon, i would get the dsIII because of the extra little everything..but it will look really old realy fast compared to the 6D/5DII which will come out soon....
    all the files i have seen from the D3 seem mostly targeted towards superhigh iso...so if that is what one needs, that is the way to go....
    has nothing to do with hating canon....just because the m8 works surprisingly well for me does not mean it would for others...

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Jack,
    I was wondering why Canon would increase the strength of the AA filter in the new 1Ds MarkIII that you noticed in your review relative to its predecessor? What is the motivation behind that as I have not heard any claims that people complain of moire or any other artefacts using the 1Ds MarkII or am I mistaken here? Any thought on that?

    Thanks,
    Joshua

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by AGeoJO View Post
    Jack,
    I was wondering why Canon would increase the strength of the AA filter in the new 1Ds MarkIII that you noticed in your review relative to its predecessor? What is the motivation behind that as I have not heard any claims that people complain of moire or any other artefacts using the 1Ds MarkII or am I mistaken here? Any thought on that?

    Thanks,
    Joshua

    I think it is generally accepted that the higher resolution a sensor is, the more likely it is to show moire in high-frequency detail. My only theory is their group of beta testers did complain about moire and Canon had to do something to fix it. The 1Ds2 and now the 3 made huge strides into the fashion catalog industry where I suspect Canon placed more than a few of their beta cameras... As we know, fabric rules the day in fashion (and weddings and any other event with people in it), and fabric is also a common generator of moire in digital sensors since its weave pattern often falls into the high-frequency detail category... And we can't have that stuff showing up on the models in the weekly issues of the Victoria's Secret or JC Penny catalogs!

    Everybody else is relegated to the back row and has to make do with the tools available... So in a nutshell, if you want the 1Ds3 for your landscape work, you're gonna have to learn to sharpen both heavily and well to make the most of its files.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  45. #45
    Subscriber robsteve's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Is it possible the AA filter is the same as the one in the 1Ds MkII and it is the higher resolution of the 1Ds MkIII that makes the AA filter seem stronger?

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    Is it possible the AA filter is the same as the one in the 1Ds MkII and it is the higher resolution of the 1Ds MkIII that makes the AA filter seem stronger?
    I guess anyting is possible... But frankly, I think it's academic anyway --- the 1Ds3 needs a *LOT* more sharpening applied to get to a sharp-looking file than the other cameras, whatever the reason.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Jack,
    Thanks for your input. Now, the information itself is not lost, correct? With the proper sharpening you can get most, if not all of the hidden data with other words, I believe. A lot of people snear at sharpened images on the web. As far as I am concerned as long as the image looks good with a lot of details, I don't care how much sharpening was applied.

    Joshua

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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Quote Originally Posted by AGeoJO View Post
    Jack,
    Thanks for your input. Now, the information itself is not lost, correct?
    Debatable... Many think the higer frequency detail gets smeared during the debayering because of the AA filter; IOW depending on the AA strength, it trims the total effective resolution by some corresponding percentage. (And in fact you do find areas of "mushiness" in AA filtered files right where you'd expect to see moire in files from filterless cameras...)

    The other AA adage is, if it wasn't resolved on the sensor to begin with, it can't be re-created by sharpening...

    The real issue for camera manufacturers is picking their poison: Option A, offer the cleanest, sharpest file possibe and have moire show uncontrolably in areas of high-frequency patterns that will require additional post-processing to correct; or option B, give a little lower effective resolution file by blurring the data so that it rarely to never shows, yet the sharpened file still looks 'good' --- (At least to the marketing department ) If I'm a camera manufacturer appealing to masses of high-volume shooters, I'm going to pick option B so my users don't have to work any harder than necessary to get their images deliverable. Personally though, I just wish Canon would have given us BOTH options and let us choose...
    Jack
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    Workshop Member ChrisDauer's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    Anyone want to send off a 1Ds3 to MaxMax and have them remove the AA filter?
    We could then have a shoot-off between the modified 1Ds3 and a normal 1Ds3.

    The only time I recall Canon giving it's users the choice was with the 20D-a; for the astrophotography crowd.

  50. #50
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 1Ds MK III test!

    (Note: I have edited the first post to include the sharpening radius value used in ACR as I failed to include it originally --- ALL files used 0.5 radius with the sharpening values stated --- sorry for failing to mention that! Also, I am using ACR 4.3.)

    Based on all the AA filter discussion, I have decided to upload the ISO 200 files, processed in ACR at the DEFAULT values, including "as shot" WB, but with all sharpening, detail and noise settings at 0 (zero)...

    I'm not sure what this really means, if anything. I cannot imagine anyone would process files this way in actual practice, but at the worst case, it is at least a comparison of the files with each having recieved *identical* conversion processing. Again, I leave it to you to draw your own conclusions as to what these results mean:

    1Ds3:



    1Ds2:



    5D:



    And just for grins, here is the 700x583 5D crop uprezzed to 900x750 to "match" the capture area and size of the 1Ds3:



    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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