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The 5D replacement rumor mill...

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Well the rumours are starting to gain momentum, and with enough detail to begin to sound credible. Here's what I have heard:

9D will be the official designation (why a 9, I have no idea...)

16.2 MP, single digic-III processor

ISO rumors are still sketchy, but looks like only a one-stop bump, 100 to 3200 with a L and H of 50 and 6400 respectively.

Improved weather sealing and micro AF adjustment.

No word on sensor shake/cleaning, no word on auto-ISO.

My comments: My biggest need for a DSLR is high ISO for really low light shooting, and preferably a usable 6400 with auto-ISO function. I also want a non-pro body due to the smaller size and lighter weight as I carry the cameras a lot more of the time than I need 10 frames per second capture rates. While I'd prefer as much resolution as is usable, I would not give up ISO 6400 to get it, so megapixel count comes in as a secondary consideration for me.

So IF the above ISO rumor is true, then one can assume that ISO 6400 will be pretty noisy, with 3200 to be the practical usable maximum. For me, this could be the final push to the D700 as I found 6400 acceptable on it, though still a bit noisy for my tastes. Will need to see some files before I decide, but it should be interesting!

Cheers,
 
A

asabet

Guest
Jack, I hadn't seen those rumors in any of the usual places. The 9D designation popped up in a UPC registration site, but anyone can submit that. The specs you cited sound realistic enough..

I gave up on waiting and bought the D700. I have slightly mixed feelings about my choice, mostly due to the greater strength of the D700 AA filter compared to that of the 5D. I slightly prefer the image quality from the 5D at low ISOs. However, I like to focus manually, and the manual focus experience on the D700 is superior to the manual focus experience on the 5D. No more stop down metering. Also, the Zeiss 50 macro is my favorite 50 ever.

I'd give the D700 about a one stop advantage at high ISO. Processing from RAW, D700 image quality at ISO 6400 is similar to 5D image quality at ISO 3200 (even though the D700 file is native and the 5D file pushed). The biggest difference is in the blacks, which are much more pure in the D700 files. If the new Canon offers native ISO "only" up to 3200, it may still match the D700 performance at ISO 6400. Provided that one processes both camera's RAW files in an "honest" converter like C1, the 1.3x crop 1D III comes awfully close to the D3/D700 at ISO 6400 despite only going to 3200 natively. I'm guessing that a full frame version of the 1D III sensor will measure up very well to the D700.
 

Robert Campbell

Well-known member
A german magazine has strongly hinted, though in a reading-between-the-lines sort of way, that it will appear by Photokina. No further details.
 

robmac

Well-known member
It will be interesting to see if 'improved ws' is real or just another gasket or two on the 40D body style (supposedly had better weather sealing vs 30D), if the VF uses an SI screen or projected (I suspect the former) and what they do with the AA filter. I am REALLY curious if they altered the AF system.

Asabet - like yourself I have reservations about the AA filter, but processing some D3 NEFs someone forwarded to me (in C1V4, Aperture, RD and NX2) comparing against 1Ds2 shots, a little USM seems to go a long way and the shots take it well. I agree on better blacks rendition.

I also much prefer manual focus work 90% of the time and the 5D VF is a PITA (even with Ee-S) to manual focus (assuming it's well calibrated) and I while I've gotten very good at stop down, I could do without the missed shots it can lead to -- and the need to shop for lenses that are uber sharp WO so you can get a hurried shot w.o stopping down if need be..

I only regret going N would/will be the loss of Leica glass use - barring sending my piggy bank to SKG for some R-Nikon conversions.
 
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asabet

Guest
Asabet - like yourself I have reservations about the AA filter, but processing some D3 NEFs someone forwarded to me (in C1V4, Aperture, RD and NX2) comparing against 1Ds2 shots, a little USM seems to go a long way and the shots take it well. I agree on better blacks rendition.

C1 v4, Aperture, and RD are the best of the ones I've tried in terms of bringout out the detail in the D700 files. I haven't tried NX2, and I'm seeing less detail with LR. Sharpening certainly helps, but I preferred the balance between detail and aliasing with the 5D.

I also much prefer manual focus work 90% of the time and the 5D VF is a PITA (even with Ee-S) to manual focus (assuming it's well calibrated)

I was using the Ee-S, but I don't think mine was well calibrated.

and I while I've gotten very good at stop down, I could do without the missed shots it can lead to -- and the need to shop for lenses that are uber sharp WO so you can get a hurried shot w.o stopping down if need be.

Either that or focus with the lens already stopped down a bit :).

I only regret going N would/will be the loss of Leica glass use - barring sending my piggy bank to SKG for some R-Nikon conversions.

I've very little experience with Leica R lenses, but from what I've seen here at GetDPI, I can understand your concern.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Using myself a D3 since 6 months now I only can say I am very pleased with it's ISO6400 performance. It is absolutely wonderful, especially if you use the light meter in spot or center mode and do the right exposure (rather on the lights than on the darks of course.).

Since the D700 sensor is exactly the same and Nikon also states the IQ is the same, I think the D700 and the D3 are the best DSLRs available today, if it comes to higher ISO performance.

I wonder why Canon seems not able to get to the same level. They had such a big advantage above Nikon a few years ago and seem to have been sleeping. If the 5D successor "only" offers ISO3200 and 6400 as a push, then I would say they have lost the game for the moment. Especially as Nikon is going to announce a few primes for available light plus a 24MP D3xyz, which then will be the top of the range DSLR comparable (and I am pretty sure above) the current 1DSMkIII.

Interesting how strong Nikon became, especially after having such a huge disadvantage compared to Canon only 2 years ago :cool:
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I wonder why Canon seems not able to get to the same level.
I suspect it is due to having more pixels. Pixels at higher gain (ISO) generate more heat, and heat is what makes digital noise. Hence more, closer-spaced pixels generate even more heat and thus more noise. The AA filter moderates a lot of this as of course does internal processing. BUT almost all noise-related internal processing accomplishes its magic my blurring the color slightly, in turn compromising quality. (AA also degrades fine detail at the same time, and why Nikon folk are starting to complain about "fine detail" -- conversely, Canon users complain too, but have been dealing with it for a few years now.) So I suspect it is a sliding scale balancing optimal resolution with optimal noise; you can have one or the other, but not both, at least yet.

I'd rather have 11 or 12 million usable ISO 3200 pixels than 16 million usable 1600 pixels, but of course if I can get good clean ISO 3200 pixels, I'll take as many as I can get! That's why I want to see the files from the Canon before I decide. But I definitely agree: if Canon does not crack a clean ISO 3200 with the new camera, then the D3/D700 will be declared the winner in my book.

Cheers,
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Jack, serious question, given the high iso of the D700 and an auto ISO that is as good as you can get, why are you sticking with Canon given the rather lackluster specs that most expect the 5D mkII to have? Is it the extra megapixels? Not that I would discount that, been playing with some 40D files from a 2nd shooter at my last wedding, the difference between 10 and 13 megapixels is pretty huge for me..
 

bradhusick

Active member
For lots of people the wider choice of glass favors Canon. Let's consider the optical quality equal between Canon and Nikon to avoid the classic arguments.
 

johnastovall

Deceased, but remembered fondly here...
Canon has to do something. I got a 5D for full frame and fell in love with it's high ISO. but now years later, I still don't have a back body, want my high ISO and have too much in Canon glass to switch to Nikon. There's some of that glass Nikon just doesn't have like the 50/1.0 and the ability to use my Zeiss 21/2.8.

But I'm very tired of waiting on Canon to replace the 5D. It's almost like they were embarssed by it's success.

I was considering the 1DsMkIII but was not taken with it's performance for the price compared to the 5D.

Come on Canon, you are not Leica you can move faster than this.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Jack, serious question, given the high iso of the D700 and an auto ISO that is as good as you can get, why are you sticking with Canon given the rather lackluster specs that most expect the 5D mkII to have? Is it the extra megapixels? Not that I would discount that, been playing with some 40D files from a 2nd shooter at my last wedding, the difference between 10 and 13 megapixels is pretty huge for me..
Hi Ben, fair question.

First off, my main reason for sticking to Canon would make most folks laugh, but here goes: The lenses mount the same direction as my Leica (and most other cameras), and the focus rings turn in the same direction as my Leica... Maybe I am dyslexic or something, but I shot Nikon for 25 years and never did get the reverse lens mount twist to become an automatic gesture. Canon OTOH is automatic in that regard (as is my Leica) and manual focus (on the rare occasion needed) is similarly intuitive.

Next, I am in no rush to get my replacement DSLR. If a job arose where I absolutely needed one today, I would buy the D700, end of discussion. But I don't need it today (or next week) and IF the new Canon has as-good 3200 and auto-ISO, then the Canon becomes a more viable solution for me.

The added pixels are a bonus IMO, but only if the ISO issues are level, so one more point Canon if that happens to be the case.

Finally is glass. The main lenses I would use on this DSLR are a few fast primes, normal to short tele, and a fast 80-200 zoom, maybe a relatively fst longer tele. Here, Canon has a speed edge in the primes, though IMO the mid zooms and longer lenses are essentially equal IMO.

So, at the end of the day, I want to see what Canon actually delivers in this new camera before I make my final decision.

Cheers,
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Canon has to do something.
snip
But I'm very tired of waiting on Canon to replace the 5D. It's almost like they were embarssed by it's success.

I was considering the 1DsMkIII but was not taken with it's performance for the price compared to the 5D.

Come on Canon, you are not Leica you can move faster than this.
I suspect it was the fact that the 5D was so good that it ate into the 1 series body sales, and they didn't want to repeat that scenario with the 1Ds3, so gave it ample time to fill the market.

The way I see it, Nikon has forced Canon into a corner. They almost HAVE to bring this 5D replacement out as a superior tool, or they will see a mass exodus of current customers...

I also sold off almost all of my Canon glass several months back, only keeping a few particularly good primes, because I knew I could always buy it all back at any time. So in this fashion, I am poised to move rapidly into either camp once I make my final choice.

Cheers,
 

mark1958

Member
Jack, I totally agree with your analyses and believe you are right. I think the 5D was closer to the 1D cameras in IQ but wider in price differential. This was especially true when considering the 1DsmkII/III. However, since the 5D is not so great when it comes to fast action shooting it does create a separate market for the 1DmkII/III. I wonder whether Canon held onto the 5D II or whatever it is going to be called or whether they were really still refining. It is clear now that if they do not release -- then there is going to be more of an exodus to Nikon. I have to give Nikon credit for how well they have caught up since canon's first DSLR release. The only concern would be if Canon is rushing their release and there is some unknown kink---something like what happened with their 1DmkIII release and a couple of their historic other release snafus. M

I will have to make my own decisions on what to do. Since going with the Hasselblad MF, I do not use my canon very often and when i do, it is the 5D not the 1DsmkIII. So i probably should consider selling both the 5D and 1DsmkIII and getting a 5DII and maybe a 40D if rumors and performance turn out to be true.

I suspect it was the fact that the 5D was so good that it ate into the 1 series body sales, and they didn't want to repeat that scenario with the 1Ds3, so gave it ample time to fill the market.

The way I see it, Nikon has forced Canon into a corner. They almost HAVE to bring this 5D replacement out as a superior tool, or they will see a mass exodus of current customers...

I also sold off almost all of my Canon glass several months back, only keeping a few particularly good primes, because I knew I could always buy it all back at any time. So in this fashion, I am poised to move rapidly into either camp once I make my final choice.

Cheers,
 

Robert Campbell

Well-known member
First off, my main reason for sticking to Canon would make most folks laugh, but here goes: The lenses mount the same direction as my Leica (and most other cameras), and the focus rings turn in the same direction as my Leica...
I'm not laughing; I thought this was one of the main reasons why Leica users, when they went SLR, chose Canon - I've seen this argued elsewhere, to same effect. Nikon is counter-intuitive.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Neither am I, some of the main reasons why I'm sticking with Canon are that I'm used to the direction of the zoom ring and the fact that you have to press the button then turn the wheel on the sb-900 to apply compensation, I can do it with the wheel alone on my 580ex/II's via a CF. I also find the back wheel on the cameras to be too stiff for me, awkwardly placed.

Small and silly but they add up when you've been shooting a system for 10 years and when you know that anything that slows down your subconscious reactions mid wedding is a bad thing!
 

robmac

Well-known member
Asabet

Losing Leica glass would be suck, but like JF, I've have pared down my lens cabinet a lot of late. Had too many lenses I wasn't using and wanted to skinny it down to have as few lenses that were Canon-mount-only as possible. Wanted any switch to be as painless as possible. Lost nothing I couldn't replace at the same price or lower at some future point if no switch materializes.

Naturally shoot stopped -down one or two stops if lens is iffy WO. That said, the ability to do so is naturally constrained by available light and the lens (contrast delivery). The best so far has been the 100 APO Leica. Using the1Ds2 with the Ec-C1V screen from the 1D3/1DS3, focusing the 100 APO at 5.6 was perfectly doable. Some others, not so much..

The 5D was famous for some bodies not behaving well with alternate (as in not shipped with the body from factory) screens. Mine was one. Had to play around with shims and test targets ad naseum to get the sucker to manually focus accurately with the Ee-S screen. For manual work, I found the etched focus points via the SI screen a real annoyance.

Toss a split screen in there (if I was willing to re-calibrate again) and placing a shallow Dof was like trying to focus through a car wreck. Body and features could be also have been more robust - given the price (when new). That said, a fully featured semi-pro camera (a la the D300/D700) is not Canon habit.

Whatever the release date, it will be interesting to see how things split between squeals of glee (fanboys accepted again - never understood that) and cries of outrage ;>
 

Homey

New member
Using myself a D3 since 6 months now I only can say I am very pleased with it's ISO6400 performance. It is absolutely wonderful, especially if you use the light meter in spot or center mode and do the right exposure (rather on the lights than on the darks of course.).

Since the D700 sensor is exactly the same and Nikon also states the IQ is the same, I think the D700 and the D3 are the best DSLRs available today, if it comes to higher ISO performance.

I wonder why Canon seems not able to get to the same level. They had such a big advantage above Nikon a few years ago and seem to have been sleeping. If the 5D successor "only" offers ISO3200 and 6400 as a push, then I would say they have lost the game for the moment. Especially as Nikon is going to announce a few primes for available light plus a 24MP D3xyz, which then will be the top of the range DSLR comparable (and I am pretty sure above) the current 1DSMkIII.

Interesting how strong Nikon became, especially after having such a huge disadvantage compared to Canon only 2 years ago :cool:
Hmm interesting question in there.
I suspect that Jack has a point about cutting into the 1 series sales.
But I think we also have to remember the 1D III focus fiasco. That probably cost Canon 6 to 8 months of moving forward because they had their best working on the fix.

My question to you is. how long was the time between release of the D2 Xs and the D3?
In all that time all Nikon did was work on ISO, Right? Basically the camera is the same as the D2x. The only improvements are in ISO.

Now I am just speculating but I think Canon was caught off guard by how good the Nikons are at high ISO.
The new 5D replacement should have improved ISO. Not sure how improved but I am sure it will be better.

With that said I guess we are stuck to have to wait and see.

As of now there is no current body I need to have. I am content with the 5D and 1Ds MII for now. I can hold out for another year or 2 before I need something new. By then Canon will have caught up or passed Nikon again in ISO quality and then still be way ahead of them in the Mega pixel race.

The only thing that would temp me to get the 5D replacement would be Higher ISO.
But its not a deal breaker and enough to jump ship over.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Hmm interesting question in there.
I suspect that Jack has a point about cutting into the 1 series sales.
But I think we also have to remember the 1D III focus fiasco. That probably cost Canon 6 to 8 months of moving forward because they had their best working on the fix.

My question to you is. how long was the time between release of the D2 Xs and the D3?
In all that time all Nikon did was work on ISO, Right? Basically the camera is the same as the D2x. The only improvements are in ISO.

Now I am just speculating but I think Canon was caught off guard by how good the Nikons are at high ISO.
The new 5D replacement should have improved ISO. Not sure how improved but I am sure it will be better.

With that said I guess we are stuck to have to wait and see.

As of now there is no current body I need to have. I am content with the 5D and 1Ds MII for now. I can hold out for another year or 2 before I need something new. By then Canon will have caught up or passed Nikon again in ISO quality and then still be way ahead of them in the Mega pixel race.

The only thing that would temp me to get the 5D replacement would be Higher ISO.
But its not a deal breaker and enough to jump ship over.
WRT what Nikon did between the D2X and D3:

1) implement a FF sensor
2) completely redesign the autofocus - the D3 and D300 and D700 have now a 51 point AF which works suerb in all conditions I checked. And pro's are satisfied as well - read the reports
3) they worked on several new lenses, and we will see more during the next months (especially primes)
4) and YES, they worked successfully on ISO

All this in combination delivers their unique position in camera functions, handling and IQ today, as good, that lot of Pro's are moving into the Nikon camp.

And they should be able to top all of that by the D3X (or whatever will be the name of this beast) delivering 24MP - due in autumn 2008 - I guess Photokina time.

My guess is, that Canon was to reluctant on their advantage over Nikon over the past years. They still have advantages in some areas - like entry level DSLRs, which are much better today than what Nikon offers, but these areas are getting smaller.
 
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asabet

Guest
Instead of attacking Nikon's D700 on its strengths (autofocus system, weather sealing, highest ISO, high frames per second with grip), Canon could be successful by innovating with a focus on image quality. Imagine a 5D replacement with the following:

1) 16MP sensor with native ISO 3200 max and ISO 6400 performance slightly worse (maybe half a stop worse) than D700
2) Physical switch to select between moderate AA filter and no AA filter
3) Modular sensor, upgradeable by Canon in the future
4) Auto ISO
5) Only 4 frames per second, not changed by adding grip
6) Only 9 point AF but all points cross type
7) Non-pro weather resistance

Such a camera wouldn't much threaten 1Ds sales and wouldn't compete head on with the D700 on its strengths, but it could be one hell of a portrait/landscape camera. I bet it would sell well.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Modular sensors are science fiction. Why do that when you can make the profit selling the entire body? Can't see it being feasible mechanically either, would cause more problems that it would solve.

AA filters are physical, how would you make one that could be switched off?

A decent Auto ISO from Canon? You wish, bunch off arrogant bastards who can't see past the beancounters, enjoy your nikon, at least they build for photographers not megapixel marketing weenies.

For all that I'm fully stuck in the canon camp, I'm not in anyway enamoured with them...
 
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