The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

The 5D replacement rumor mill...

A

asabet

Guest
Modular sensors are science fiction. Why do that when you can make the profit selling the entire body?
I don't see why modular sensors couldn't be profitable. Perhaps they could charge 2/3 the price of a new and improved camera for just the sensor. Even if you strike the modular sensor off the list though, I think the rest could be enough.

AA filters are physical, how would you make one that could be switched off?
The switch would have to move the low pass filter from in front of the sensor/ICF and replace it with an appropriate piece of clear glass. Why couldn't it be done?
 

robmac

Well-known member
You could put a "Holga" name on this puppy and I'd be all over it.

That said:

1. At 16MP, I think you'd have a tough time getting clean native 3200 - with current tech. The PP's would invariably compare it to the D3/700 and all sorts of cat fights would be started in what are already increasingly-childish forums.

2. As said above- they're either strong, weak or not there. Personally have a hate-on for the things myself.

3. Modular sensor - DMRII could have been that, but if Ctried it there'd be Err99 or Err01 codes flying all over the place every time you switched 'backs'.

4. Be nice - but can't see C doing it - maybe the next gen Pro bodies. They like to de-feature their consumer bodies too much.

5. No issues - but people tend to prefer 'spray & pray' with an AF system that borders on AI, so....

6. Again, fine by me - but see #5 above.

7. Will see that in 5DII - essentially a 16MP sensor in 40D carcass (40D was supposedly better weather-sealed vs 30D for what that's worth).

Instead of attacking Nikon's D700 on its strengths (autofocus system, weather sealing, highest ISO, high frames per second with grip), Canon could be successful by innovating with a focus on image quality. Imagine a 5D replacement with the following:

1) 16MP sensor with native ISO 3200 max and ISO 6400 performance slightly worse (maybe half a stop worse) than D700
2) Physical switch to select between moderate AA filter and no AA filter
3) Modular sensor, upgradeable by Canon in the future
4) Auto ISO
5) Only 4 frames per second, not changed by adding grip
6) Only 9 point AF but all points cross type
7) Non-pro weather resistance

Such a camera wouldn't much threaten 1Ds sales and wouldn't compete head on with the D700 on its strengths, but it could be one hell of a portrait/landscape camera. I bet it would sell well.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
You are essentially saying that you want two FF sized peices of glass joined together horizontally and the mechanism to move them side to side, oh and the spare room in the camera to do it. As I said, science fiction!
 
A

asabet

Guest
I hadn't actually thought it through that far, but your described method sounds like it could work :). Oh, and looking at how huge the 5D and D700 are compared to what I'd like, I feel those smart Canon engineers ought to be able to find the space in there :p.

I'm sure you realize that many of the things we're using now sounded like science fiction just a few years ago.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
For all that I'm fully stuck in the canon camp, I'm not in anyway enamoured with them...
Have to agree Ben, Canon is being run by a bunch of weenies, not photographers. We pinged on them for YEARS to add a dedicated MLU button instead of the stupid CF12 gyration, and instead we get a direct "Print" button that NOBODY asked for --- how stupid is that?
 

woodyspedden

New member
Modular sensors are science fiction. Why do that when you can make the profit selling the entire body? Can't see it being feasible mechanically either, would cause more problems that it would solve.

AA filters are physical, how would you make one that could be switched off?

A decent Auto ISO from Canon? You wish, bunch off arrogant bastards who can't see past the beancounters, enjoy your nikon, at least they build for photographers not megapixel marketing weenies.

For all that I'm fully stuck in the canon camp, I'm not in anyway enamoured with them...
Ben

I agree with your assessment and i understand how one can own and use the system and still be p@@$ off at the manufacturer. I waited a long number of years as a Nikon user who could not and would not lose serious money on selling one brand of lenses and buying another based on a better body (which Canon has had for about five years!) I couldn't believe that Nikon could let us down like that. But that was then and this is now and I still have the great Nikon glass and finally a couple of bodies to go with it.

I think Canon is in a pickle. Yes they will probably have 16 Mpx and that will get them sales, particularly from those like you and jack who are already "stuck" with the brand as you describe it. Auto ISO is already available from Nikon so that is not a differentiator.

Amin wants 4 fps but the D700 already has 5 and with the grip can get to 8 so that is a losing issue.

There is little to no point to have switchable AA filters even if it were possible. The main point of an AA filter is to remove Moire and programs like Phocus prove that Moire is controllable (in the main) through software. So no big deal there either.

My theory is simple. For Canon to win, being this far behind ( and so many people already having bought the D700) is to come with, let's say a D700 lookalike except for Pixels and they can certainly come up with a relatively inexpensive 16Mpx chip. They would, in my opinion have to price the body at under $2500 and more preferably at around $2100. I am not expecting them to do this but I believe this would be a strategy to gain a larger share of the market. Nikon will ultimately come down in price on the D700, as they always do, but it would be tough to get to $2100!

Just my humble thoughts. I think Canon has a difficult row to hoe.

woody
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
That's one of the things I really love about this forum, there is almost zero fanboyism. Lots of pros and serious photographers for whom the image making equipment is just that - a tool. Who cares what name is on the front.

I've always said that everything between the image I picture in my mind and the final print is a necessary encumbrance, whatever makes it less so is a benefit by definition!

It's an attitude I find here and sometimes on LL but almost never anywhere else.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Ben - well said. There are some exceptions, but overall the lens line/camera line FB attitude is pretty limited here.

Almost everyone keeps a modest head on their shoulders and spats are moderated (and die off) quickly. While it WILL sadly get worse here as word spreads, lets hope we can avoid a lot of what afflicts so many other photo sites.

Sadly FBism is increasing fast over at FM - even within the alternate glass forum which you would have thought would have been be the last bastion of objectivity. The sad reality of a site becoming too popular.

Get enough humans together in one spot with an excuse to form a clique be it Canon, Nikon, Leica, Zeiss, OM (or whatever else they spend their money on) and away we go...

The whole FB BS isn't just annoying, it also severely degrades the value of forums to people looking for information and assistance -- especially prior to making what could be a big $$ purchase. For a lot folks, the 'net (and the folks they meet over it) are their primary information source before laying down the old Visa.

People forget that 'rent a copy...' or 'try one at your local store...' isn't an option for a lot of folks. I live 40 minutes from our provincial capital. The highest-end camera I can test (from a store) within a days drive? Nikon D300. Highest-end lenses? Nikon 14-24 or 24-70G. To rent gear? An 18 hr drive - or two days rental + insurance wasted on shipping back and forth from Toronto.

The 'experts' at the local camera shop? When I visit, not only do they ask ME questions about what gear THEY should buy, guess who they refer customer questions to about anything above basic SLRs and lenses (poor SOBs :LOL:)? Would be funny if it wasn't so #$% sad.

The whole myopic FB BS also makes people hesitate in posting - because when they do, their odds of getting a POLITE: a) unbiased answer to a product-specific question or issue or b) a decent cross-sampling of opinion on a product is decreasing so fast in most places it isn't even funny.

Nothing degrades someone's manners nor inflates their ego and 'expertise' like the buffer of the internet and a nom d'-guerre. Lets hope we stay above it for as long as possible.
 
Last edited:

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Hell yeah, been noticing that for a while on FM, especially on the Canon (there are no problems) and Nikon (there have never been any problems) boards. I was on the point of leaving when a reputable member wrote to ask me to stay saying that there has to be a few members who can see above the FB phenomenon. The patronisation there is pretty bad, especially of those who have problems. Too few pros and far too many internet presence only wannabees. Oh well, let's hope that the spirit of Guy who dared to buck popular thinking all that time ago, and the MFDB shooters, that crazy bunch of guys, will persevere here and keep this as a 'photographers and their tools forum' rather than the other way round.
 

robmac

Well-known member
I hear you - about ready to give up on FM myself. Agree with you on C & N boards. Long been a member of the Alt board but it is now getting nastier as people seem to be sampling less variety of glass and falling into manufacturer's camps with open arms and closed minds. Increasingly you need to have the tolerance of a pre-school teacher and a BS filter dialed to '11'.

I don't think I have more than 2 lenses from the same maker in my cabinet. While that's a bit extreme from the aspect of shooting practicality, but (as you state) they're tools and no one manufacturer makes a perfect line of ANYTHING. So until free lenses and bodies start showing up on my door ( I can be bought....;>), it's my $$$ on the line, so tools they will stay.

Agreed - lets hope we keep the wagons circled here as long as we can - and that anyone new here who finds themselves about to have a (sadly) FM or DPR moment stop and thinks before hitting return.

While some people are hopelessly pre-disposed to being myopic/arrogant/patronizing or simply an a****ole, most of us can de-program ourselves of old habits. Wife would be surprised - it almost sounds like I have some hope for the human condition ;>
 
Last edited:

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Nice comments folks at airport heading home for a gig but Jack and I are about the tools not the brand name. We like to keep it that way on the forums. I think we learn more this way than the FB way. We all have our favorites but seeing with eye's wide open is the best way. We will strive for that always as owners. Wow longest typing I have done by iPhone .LOL
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Almost everyone keeps a modest head on their shoulders and spats are moderated (and die off) quickly. While it WILL sadly get worse here as word spreads, lets hope we can avoid a lot of what afflicts so many other photo sites.
And we'll continue to moderate blatant FB-ism out. IF we ever get as popular as LL or FM, and IF we start to have too much FB-izm, we'll start a special set of forums, call them "user fan clubs" and put them way down at the bottom forum list!

:D,
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I don't see why modular sensors couldn't be profitable. Perhaps they could charge 2/3 the price of a new and improved camera for just the sensor. Even if you strike the modular sensor off the list though, I think the rest could be enough.



The switch would have to move the low pass filter from in front of the sensor/ICF and replace it with an appropriate piece of clear glass. Why couldn't it be done?
1) Removable sensor - this is nothing else than wishful thinking. Of course, theoretically it could be done, but actually no manufacturer of FF DSLRs would really like to offer. And mainly because such a design would be very expensive (see Leica's DMR solution) and not allow the camera manufacturers to make the desired profit on future models.

2) Switchable AA filter - come on, you cannot be serious! Just look at the size of the camera and how big that filter is at FF and then consider where to move it while replacing it with another filter .... :shocked: This will not work in a compact body!
 

Homey

New member
Great comments guys.
I was actually thinking something close to the same. I was reading on here and was saying to myself how great this site is.

I am still a FM member so please forgive me for that. I have given up on some of the others long ago but FM seems to have some good info on it.

I remember why I came here in the first place. That was to move forward with my photography and seek out the best possible lenses I could to get the best image quality out of my tools.
I don't care who makes it. If its better than what I have now then I don't care if it says quantiray on the side. I will still use it.

I hope my earlier posts did not offend anyone.

I am glad for the Nikon guys that Nikon has in fact made such great gear for you.. Sorry for you that it took them so long to deliver.

I still cant wait to see what the new Canon 5D will be. But I am not getting my hopes up. My gear worked great this year and it will be great next year so I can hold out.

I think we all here are Pro's here and I hope it stays a Pro forum with Pro attitudes.

Now someone please explain to me why the Auto ISO is such a good thing..
 

Terry

New member
Auto ISO from a non pro. I use it in Aperture priority. If you feel confident in getting a clean image at many different ISO's it allows you in many circumstances to go into Auto mode and not worry about it. So, you need to set your base ISO (starting value), the minimum shutter speed, and the highest ISO you will allow. If you have enough light and shutter speed the ISO will stay at your base. As your light changes the ISO will automatically change.

Example, shooting at a party. Part of the room was quite bright and some areas were quite dark. I knew about 1/60 would be OK to stop the motion from the people. So, I set auto at ISO 200 as my start, 6400 as the max, 1/60 min shutter.

In bright areas, with the lens wide open I was at ISO 200 with about 1/125 on shutter and in dark areas stopped down a bit I could be at 6400 and 1/60 and some were a little below that at about 1/20 (because that was the last variable that could be changes as I had hit the limit on ISO, and Aperture was priority). So I could shoot at the party and only have to worry about my aperture and focus and not have to change any other settings. (Essentially, as soon as you hit the limit on shutter speed getting too low, the camera automatically boosts ISO).
 
Last edited:

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Now someone please explain to me why the Auto ISO is such a good thing..
Because it enables you to prioritize to a specific aperture for a desired "look" while also prioritizing a minimum acceptable shutter speed. Think of it as aperture priority with selectable minimum shutter speed.


Cheers,
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Homey auto ISO does sound like a gimmick and i do tend to agree but what Nikon did i kind of like they put parameters around it that you the user can control . So say your out shooting but do NOT want to go to 6400 ISO than you can tell the camera in the menu to hold at 1600 ISO or 3200 ISO. For me i try to stay as low as i can and stay away from any noise. Okay these things are great but I still am old fashion low is better attitude. But the nice thing is the camera will adjust when you hit low light and on A mode and at say 5.6 it will compensate with ISO instead of shutter or aperture which you may want to stay put and not move around on you. So in effect you can be at example F 5.6 at 1/250 for that particular need and the camera will adjust the ISO to compensate for higher or lower light. This can be pretty useful in certain situations.

Geez three of us posting at the same damn time.
 
Top