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Thread: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

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    Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    Will the AF in the Canon 1Dx be identical with the AF in the Canon 5D Mark III I know it will be similar 61 point AF system but will it be identical?

    If yes, why would most of us buy the Canon 1Dx for twice as much? I know the canon frame rate is much higher (faster) but I don't see too much difference between the two cameras which would justify me to spend twice as much for a camera...? I am a wedding photographer and I don't use the video capabilities and I don't really need the high frame rate, either.
    What I need is fast and accurate focusing... It is hard to believe that the autofocus in the Canon 5D Mark III will be identical with the one Canon builds into the Canon 1Dx...

    I am hesitant to pre-order it... Should I pre-order it??? I am willing to buy only it if it is exactly the same!

    Any toughs?

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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    Not the same. It is crippled at the tracking focus abilities. I know, the 5D3 has many nice new things but manages to disappoint at all departments whatsoever. Still the typical 5D class camera, now priced as a 1D camera. I'm passing.
    Eduardo

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    That's disappointing news. Really disappointing. Where did you read this Eduardo?

    Greatly improved autofocus capability is the one thing that would have convinced me to buy a 5D3. I will just have to save my dollars for a 1Dx someday.....22mp would have been nice however.

    Gary

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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    At the DPR forums, but I'm sure this info is accurate. Even when it was still a rumor, CR mentioned this handicap.
    This time Canon reminds me of Hasselblad with the CFV backs. Very nice but with serious missings which make them almost unsuitable for my personal style.
    I'm getting frustrated with digital photography. Now I have to reposition myself as a photographer according to camera offers or get obsoleted. With film this problem didn't exist.
    I've been called names at DPR forums for expressing my deep discontent with the 5D3. I've been mistreated at times when expressing my frustration with Hasselblad's CFV backs. My two systems. I don't consider myself a difficult or demanding person.
    Eduardo

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    That's disappointing news. Really disappointing. Where did you read this Eduardo?

    Greatly improved autofocus capability is the one thing that would have convinced me to buy a 5D3. I will just have to save my dollars for a 1Dx someday.....22mp would have been nice however.

    Gary
    Where is always the way open to bus a D800

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    If the 5D3 autofocus performance approaches that of the 1D4, it will be good enough for my needs, so I'll just have to wait and see.

    Re switching to Nikon.....probably not, but I would never say never. I've been gradually acquiring more autofocus Nikon prime lenses since buying a D2X last year. Right now, I've got too much invested in nice L glass and overall, I'm pleased with my 5D, 1D2 and 7D (for my kind of shooting).

    Gary

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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    it makes sense that it will be better than the 5D2 but not as good as the 1Dx

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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    If the 5D3 autofocus performance approaches that of the 1D4, it will be good enough for my needs, so I'll just have to wait and see.

    Re switching to Nikon.....probably not, but I would never say never. I've been gradually acquiring more autofocus Nikon prime lenses since buying a D2X last year. Right now, I've got too much invested in nice L glass and overall, I'm pleased with my 5D, 1D2 and 7D (for my kind of shooting).

    Gary
    If you are pleased, I don't understand the disappointment. With no disrespect what-so-ever, AF better than the 7D, almost as good as 1DX, and better than the 5D you are happy with, that's already a lot of camera.

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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    Not the same. It is crippled at the tracking focus abilities.
    So let me get this straight.

    The 1Dx has the best (or at least most advanced) AF that Canon has ever designed. The camera also has a new feature that feeds color data from the exposure sensor to the AF system to help it track some types of moving objects. This system is completely new to Canon, nobody outside of Canon has had a chance to try it out, and it is an optional system that can be disabled if the photographer decides that it is getting in the way.

    The 5D mkIII has an AF system that is identical to the 1Dx except for this new, untested and optional extra feature. At least on paper, the 5D mkIII has the second best AF system that Canon has ever put in a production camera, better than -any- other Canon camera that anybody in the world is shooting with today. In fact, since the 5D is supposed to start shipping within the next month while the 1Dx is still "Coming soon", it appears that there will be a period of time where the 5DmkIII will have the best AF of any Canon camera that people can actually buy. Considering the quantity and location of the cross-type AF points in the camera, there are situations where the 5DmkIII AF system should be able to outperform anything from Nikon as well.

    And you are describing it as "crippled"?
    You are saying that it is "handicapped"?


    The most disappointing thing about the new camera is all the people who seem to be going out of their way to spread disinformation about it.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    If you are pleased, I don't understand the disappointment. With no disrespect what-so-ever, AF better than the 7D, almost as good as 1DX, and better than the 5D you are happy with, that's already a lot of camera.
    Yes, I can see why my statements wouldn't make much sense. I have learned to adapt my shooting style to the capabilities of the Canon autofocus systems.....and so with those adjustments (basically only using the centerpoint autofocus and with mostly inanimate subjects).....I have been pleased with the results (in most cases). Of course, it's always possible that there is a significant element of user error involved in my experience, but in any case....I am hoping that the new 61 point autofocus system of the 5D3 will be a major leap forward and put Canon and Nikon on roughly the same playing field re autofocus performance.

    Gary

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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Yes, I can see why my statements wouldn't make much sense. I have learned to adapt my shooting style to the capabilities of the Canon autofocus systems.....and so with those adjustments (basically only using the centerpoint autofocus and with mostly inanimate subjects).....I have been pleased with the results (in most cases). Of course, it's always possible that there is a significant element of user error involved in my experience, but in any case....I am hoping that the new 61 point autofocus system of the 5D3 will be a major leap forward and put Canon and Nikon on roughly the same playing field re autofocus performance.

    Gary
    Gary, I really hope so too. In fact, I am hoping to take delivery on my Birthday
    I too have been adapted to the Center AF Point on my 5D Mark II, and have built a strong (in my view) integration with the camera. I was spoilt with the AF-C on my Nikon D700. My little boy could run anywhere and images were always sharp! However, understanding the limitations of the Mk2, I think anyone can move beyond it. Now hopefully with an improved AF system, I really hope it is at least as good Nikon's last generation if not better. Anyways, here's to hoping

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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    More silly disinformation on the Canon 5D mark III.
    Describing it's focusing as being a "deliberately crippled" version of the 1D X is completely wrong. It has the same 61 point focusing sensor, but does not have a dedicated CPU for the focusing. It will have all the accuracy in the world, but not quite the tracking ability of the 1D X. The 1D X is designed for sports and 12 fps. That is why they dedicated a processor to focusing.
    The 5D Mark III should do very well at it's lower frame rate.

    I think that Canon deserves credit for improving it's product by improving less glamorous features. It took a bold move to leave the MP race and focus on image quality that you can realistically get form a 24x36 sensor. Gap-less micro lenses, better dynamic range and no line skipping in video mode.
    Canon has the in house ability to produce 120 MP crop sensors and has demonstrated it with a prototype, however they know that it is pointless to go beyond a certain MP count. I find it interesting that the new sensor is a move from 21 to 22.3 MP. It's a strategic choice to stay in the sweet spot.

    Nikon on the other hand moved to 36MP but no gap-less micro lenses (probably because they don't make their own sensors or develop them). While there has been a lot of buzz regarding the 36MP sensor and the claims of replacing MF and having MF digital quality problems are starting to show up.

    Nikon has already admitted that tilt and shift lenses do not work on the D800. Video still has line skipping. The D800 does not produce any gains at apertures smaller than f5.6. From f 8 to f22 or smaller optical limitations of diffraction nullify any gains by the sensor.

    If any criticism should be made about the 5D mark III launch it should be the really so so sample images....

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    I'm am definitely coming around to the 5D3 myself (put my name on the list for one at the local shop). I too feel like 18-24mp is the sweet spot for a full frame 35mm sensor. I keep thinking about the special image quality created by the 9 micro "fat pixels" on my CFV-16. My original 5D and 1D Mk II both are in the 8 micron range and these are two cameras which produce images I like MUCH better than my Canon 7D. I believe both the 7D and D800 have pixels that are less than 5 microns in size. I'd love to have a Canon with the resolution of a 7D/5DII and the perceptual image character/quality of the original 5D and 1D2 etc.

    I just hope those 61 points of autofocus really work as advertised. The 7D has quite a few autofocus points and supposedly some more sophisticated ways of employing them, but it still struggles in many situations and can't hold a candle to my Nikon D2x when it comes to autofocus accuracy.

    Gary
    Last edited by bensonga; 12th March 2012 at 13:32.

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    krb
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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    More silly disinformation on the Canon 5D mark III.
    Describing it's focusing as being a "deliberately crippled" version of the 1D X is completely wrong. It has the same 61 point focusing sensor, but does not have a dedicated CPU for the focusing.
    Actually, the 5DIII also has a dedicated AF processor. The only difference between the 5DIII and the 1Dx is the new iTR technology that helps the 1Dx track specific subjects using color data from the metering sensor.

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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    From Arash Hazeghi's interview with Chuck Westfall ("CW" is Chuck Westfall)

    AH: Are there any differences in hardware or software between the EOS 5D MKIII and EOS 1DX AF modules?

    CW: The AF sensor and AI Servo III tracking algorithms are identical for both cameras. However, the EOS 5D Mark III uses a 63-zone Dual Layer iFCL sensor for exposure metering whereas the EOS-1D X uses an approximately 100,000 pixel RGB sensor powered by a DIGIC 4 processor for exposure metering. As a result, the EOS-1D X supports EOS iTR AF (Intelligent Tracking and Recognition) that can apply face and color detection data from the 100,000 pixel sensor for improved subject tracking when the camera is set for automatic focusing point selection. In addition, the EOS-1D X achieves a higher lens motor drive speed with select L-series USM telephoto lenses than the 5D Mark III because of the 1D X’s more powerful battery pack.


    AH: The current AF system in EOS 1D Mark IV delivers excellent performance when photographing subjects like birds in flight against a varied background. In this case photographer often uses center point with a fixed number of expansion points, as opposed to color-tracking or automatic AF point/area selection given the erratic nature of the subject. What benefits does the new system bring in terms of speed and precision in this application?

    CW: The number and distribution of high-precision cross-type AF points has increased on the new 61-point AF system relative to the 45-point AF system used by the EOS-1D Mark IV. Moreover:

    The overall AF system speed of the EOS-1D X including lens drive is superior to that of the EOS-1D Mark IV on a lens for lens basis. The overall AF detection speed of the EOS 5D Mark III is superior to the AF detection speed of the EOS-1D Mark IV.

    The level of AF precision for 5 of the central area AF points on the 61-point sensor (i.e., the dual X-shaped cross-type points) is superior to the level of precision for any of the AF points on the 1D Mark IV.

    21 cross-type AF points in the central area of the 61-point sensor are functional with maximum apertures as small as f/5.6; None (zero) of the cross-type points on the EOS-1D Mark IV are functional as cross-type sensors at maximum apertures smaller than f/4.

    The 61-point AF sensor has twice the low light sensitivity as the 1D Mark IV’s 45-point AF sensor (EV -2 vs. EV -1).

    The 61-point AF system supports AI Servo III, which is superior in subject tracking stability and consistency compared to AI Servo II found on the EOS-1D Mark IV.

    The 61-point AF system adds a greater degree of user control for subjects with various characteristics of acceleration and deceleration such as birds in flight.

    The 61-point AF system not only has 16 more AF points than any of the 45-point systems, it is also 20% wider in coverage (19mm vs. 15mm), making it easier for photographers to keep their subjects within the active AF area.

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    If the 5D3 autofocus performance approaches that of the 1D4, it will be good enough for my needs, so I'll just have to wait and see.

    Re switching to Nikon.....probably not, but I would never say never. I've been gradually acquiring more autofocus Nikon prime lenses since buying a D2X last year. Right now, I've got too much invested in nice L glass and overall, I'm pleased with my 5D, 1D2 and 7D (for my kind of shooting).

    Gary
    It's better than the 1D4 Gary (I own a 1D4).

    TBH, the camera is a steal for what it does and apart from the frame rate probably beats the 1D4 at everything apart from a few custom functions that aren't there (or needed). Servo tracking always sucked on the 1D4 too. I tried to follow a bride walking down the aisle once, every shot missed!

    The AF points are all there though and they work. I focused on an A3 print on my front room wall last night in near total darkness at 2.8 and it was sharp and in focus. The print was 6 metres away and was a flower in some grass, very low contrast.

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    What is really interesting is comparing a 5D3 ISO100 file vs a P25 ISO50 file.

    They look almost identical.

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    Re: Will the AF in the 5D Mark III be identical with the AF in the Canon 1DX???

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I'm am definitely coming around to the 5D3 myself (put my name on the list for one at the local shop). I too feel like 18-24mp is the sweet spot for a full frame 35mm sensor. I keep thinking about the special image quality created by the 9 micro "fat pixels" on my CFV-16. My original 5D and 1D Mk II both are in the 8 micron range and these are two cameras which produce images I like MUCH better than my Canon 7D. I believe both the 7D and D800 have pixels that are less than 5 microns in size. I'd love to have a Canon with the resolution of a 7D/5DII and the perceptual image character/quality of the original 5D and 1D2 etc.

    I just hope those 61 points of autofocus really work as advertised. The 7D has quite a few autofocus points and supposedly some more sophisticated ways of employing them, but it still struggles in many situations and can't hold a candle to my Nikon D2x when it comes to autofocus accuracy.

    Gary
    Gary, I wouldn't worry to much about the 5D-MK3 AF ... I've been following the 10 page review by Jeff Ascough on the DWF (which is unfortunately a closed, members only forum), and he has high praise for the new AF system in this camera.

    He also has gone into more depth about other features not covered elsewhere so far ... like the silent mode shooting, which is touted as quieter than a Leica M9. Apparently there is also a fine mode for the AF which he has permanently set on his 5D-MK3 because he is an available light shooter using the 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 ... in fact he quipped that "the 50/1.2 will be welded to this camera". Others who have the camera have also mentioned that the 50/1.2 is now much more sure and accurate on this camera.

    One other aspect covered there because of the importance of high ISO and skin tones and skin rendering for wedding shooters is the approx 2 stop advantage in ISO over the 5D-II while retaining excellent skin rendering. The AA filter is thinner than it was on the 5D/5D-II.

    The lure of this new camera to my way of thinking always comes down to what lenses can be bolted to it. Canon has a couple unique lenses that are still appealing to me over a Nikon ... 50/1.2 and 85/1.2. I think those that like the Zeiss MF lenses in Canon mount will be disappointed because the focusing screen is NOT interchangeable, and never will be user changeable because it is now an integrated part of the whole focus system, and apparently was designed this way to eliminate any variable. While it CAN be MFed, this is an AF camera for all practical purposes.

    What will be VERY interesting in the coming year is whether Sony will actually follow through on the A99 AF rumor indications from reliable sources ... apparently Sony is not only out to offer the alternative of SLT and EVF, but is out to beat both Canon and Nikon in terms of AF speed and accuracy. The indications are that a FF 24 meg "all new sensor" A99 with have over 100 cross sensor type AF points with some pretty advanced CPU devoted to it. If true to any degree, that should warm up the competitive field to some hot degree

    I do know that my A900s are already more consistently accurate than either of my shooting partners at weddings using their 5D/5D-IIs.

    -Marc

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