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Thread: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    I know we've heard this is the consumer version with the pro version announcement later in the year. However, so far no tilting screen either, no stabilization for 3rd party lenses. AF seems to be fairly slow to lock when compared to current mirrorless offerings. Best thing so far is the APS-C sensor and size, however, when it comes to APS-C sensors Canon seems to be behind Nikon in their offering in Noise handling.

    I really hope after waiting so long for Canon to bring a mirrorless to the market, when they release the pro-version, that it will not be a disappointment in the respect that they release 'just another camera'. I've collected too many of "these" cameras already.

    "Give me more!"

    It almost seems that you jam a somewhat fast zoom lens with an APS-C inside (think Sony RX100) it may be overall better! I love the idea compacts are remaining that way, just their sensor size are increasing.
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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    No peaking
    No IS
    No EVF
    boring lens selection (not so small either).

    It's an also ran NEX but 3 years late.

    I can only assume that they don't want to compete with their dSLR entry level offerings, but the result of that would seem to be that they won't compete with anything!

    zzzzzzzzzzz

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Last edited by hot; 23rd July 2012 at 03:38.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quite a few links here with videos:

    Canon EOS-M now officially announced! Already with preorders! | Mirrorless Rumors

    My thoughts:

    Easily better than Nikon 1 and Pentax Q/K.

    Look forward to the next model (swivel LCD and EVF?) as the 1.6X crop may fare better with some of the manual focus lenses I have than the 1.5X crop sensor in the NEX.

    The touch screen looks really useful as is the flash hotshoe.

    Samsung NX is now bound feel the pinch and it will help Sony.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Hmmm, with 22mm + adapter list price under € 1000

    Big minus: no moveable display ... Canon you finished development 5 to 12 ... okay, it's a half NEX7 ... or a quarter ...

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    My thoughts:

    Easily better than Nikon 1 and Pentax Q/K.

    Look forward to the next model (swivel LCD and EVF?) as the 1.6X crop may fare better with some of the manual focus lenses I have than the 1.5X crop sensor in the NEX.

    The touch screen looks really useful as is the flash hotshoe.

    Samsung NX is now bound feel the pinch and it will help Sony.
    HI Vivek
    my post was filtered through considering whether there was anything of interest to me (there isn't).

    But on a more serious note I feel that there is rather a disconnect of thinking here.
    If they want a simple camera for people who don't necessarily think of themselves as photographers, then really, an APSc sized sensor isn't necessary, perhaps going down to 1" is overkill, but a smaller sensor means much smaller lenses, and for most folks who are going to put pictures online or print up to A4 sized, they really don't need the larger sensor.

    If they are really making a serious attempt at the small sensor camera market, then the lenses announced don't say so - it seems to me to be a simple copy of the NEX launch 3 years ago (with a kit zoom and a wide(ish) angle lens). Of course, they can bring out a professional grade body, but there is still the issue of the lenses.

    As a camera for using third party lenses, it's not going to be that great - focus peaking and an EVF can be added with later models, but in body image stabilisation really is a killer punch in this area, and I don't see how that can really be added at a later date.

    Bringing out an entry level model to start with is always a mistake, in that it switches off a whole raft of potential customers who then stop looking.

    Both Canon and Nikon's approach to the competition from m43 and Sony seems to he half-assed at best.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Hi Jono,

    While there may be similarities to the current NEX-F3, the EOS-M appears better. The earlier NEX cams (3, 5, 5n, C3) all are crippled having no flash hotshoe and no useful touch screen.

    The NEX-F3 handles well. However, the way it is built makes you try it at eye level. There is no EVF. A pity.

    Lenses: Let us see if the 22mm f/2 is is as horrible as the E 16/2.8 and the 18-55 as bad as the E 18-55 (at the wide end) before passing judgements based on the looks alone.

    [Edit: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-m/ a couple of comments on the lenses there. Also notes the presence of a fairly quiet shutter with electronic first curtain shutter. Offered in NEX-F3 and is absent in NEX-3, 5 and C3]

    The flash system Canon have are really versatile and useful. The video formats offered are useful as well.

    I am happy to see the EOS-M for many reasons-

    Sony, instead of trying to follow Samsung have someone else to think about.

    I do not think the toy cams from Nikon and Pentax need to be compared. They were dead on arrival, AFAIC.
    Last edited by Vivek; 23rd July 2012 at 04:59.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    In reading this article
    Canon's EOS M arrives: a $799.99 APS-C mirrorless camera competitor | The Verge
    it appears to me that Canon sees it for primarily video. Also that it will be marketed and sold in the US through more knowledgable specialty stores such as B &H where it says there is more guidance for photographers.

    Canon, according to this, is marketing it differently in Japan and they plan to give it a 'splashier' release and expect it to be one of their best selling cameras there.

    I have no interest in purchasing it, even being a longtime Canon person, but have interest in justr what other manufacturers are doing with mirrorless. I read that Canon isn't even referring to it as 'mirrorless' so it won't be confused with the m4/3 or NEX.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Raist3d sure is doing some lovely stuff with that toy Pentax Q. My K-01 is my favorite street camera coupled with the beautiful 14mm Pentax DA (no adapter needed) and a CV 21 viewfinder - but then I'm daft (first to admit it )
    This one is not going far for Canon - too little to late.

    Keith
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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by woodmancy View Post
    Raist3d sure is doing some lovely stuff with that toy Pentax Q. My K-01 is my favorite street camera coupled with the beautiful 14mm Pentax DA and a CV 21 viewfinder - but then I'm daft (first to admit it )

    Keith
    Hi Keith
    quite right - and although definitely not for me the Nikon V1 also has a real place, with it's lightning fast c-af.
    I don't think you're daft either - I actually saw a K-01 in the wild (latitude festival) I though it looked like a great solution as long as you didn't want an EVF.

    All three of these cameras (Q, K-01, V1) have something different and useful (even if some of it's a bit niche) - my problem with the EOS-M is that it doesn't seem to be offering anything original or different - it just looks like they're saying
    "Oh - we can do that too . . . Now let's get back to the serious stuff of selling dSLRs"

    all the best

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    Kind of a weak offering

    Like a cross between Samsung's NX200 and an entry-level Olympus mirrorless. No EVF, apparently limited control features. However, at least they didn't hobble it with a tiny sensor like Nikon did and they gave it a metal body which is a nice touch.
    The higher-end models will likely come later. Meanwhile, it's smaller than the G1X!

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    "Oh - we can do that too . . . Now let's get back to the serious stuff of selling dSLRs"
    Hi Jono,

    May be right (and no one doubted that they can not do it in the first place). Key here, unlike the KO1 and the NX, is the camera registry of 18mm. Similar to those of NEX and X Pro 1.

    That alone makes it very versatile.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hi Jono,

    While there may be similarities to the current NEX-F3, the EOS-M appears better. The earlier NEX cams (3, 5, 5n, C3) all are crippled having no flash hotshoe and no useful touch screen.

    The NEX-F3 handles well. However, the way it is built makes you try it at eye level. There is no EVF. A pity.

    Lenses: Let us see if the 22mm f/2 is is as horrible as the E 16/2.8 and the 18-55 as bad as the E 18-55 (at the wide end) before passing judgements based on the looks alone.

    [Edit: Canon EOS M hands-on preview: Digital Photography Review a couple of comments on the lenses there. Also notes the presence of a fairly quiet shutter with electronic first curtain shutter. Offered in NEX-F3 and is absent in NEX-3, 5 and C3]

    The flash system Canon have are really versatile and useful. The video formats offered are useful as well.

    I am happy to see the EOS-M for many reasons-

    Sony, instead of trying to follow Samsung have someone else to think about.

    I do not think the toy cams from Nikon and Pentax need to be compared. They were dead on arrival, AFAIC.
    WRT 18-55 we only can hope it is far better than the APSC-DSLR 18-55 from Canon, because this one is really for the garbage!

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Looks like a camera without a purpose to me. Both the Nikon and the tiny Pentax look like better solutions. Small sensors will only get better, but Canon will always have to struggle with bigger lenses, particularly the zooms, for the larger sensor. The best compromise still seems to be m4/3.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Looks like a camera without a purpose to me. Both the Nikon and the tiny Pentax look like better solutions. Small sensors will only get better, but Canon will always have to struggle with bigger lenses, particularly the zooms, for the larger sensor. The best compromise still seems to be m4/3.
    Hi Jorgen
    I think so as well.

    I just found an interesting sensor size comparison site:

    Sensor Size Comparison

    if you like the 4:3 aspect ratio of µ43, then the Canon shows few advantages, but has the disadvantage of requiring a larger image circle (and therefore larger lenses) because of the 3:2 ratio.

    all the best

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Looks like a camera without a purpose to me. Both the Nikon and the tiny Pentax look like better solutions. Small sensors will only get better, but Canon will always have to struggle with bigger lenses, particularly the zooms, for the larger sensor. The best compromise still seems to be m4/3.
    By that line of logic why should anyone be investing in anything but compacts though?

    The Pentaxs just seems like a gimmick to me, I'm sure they have some uses but the advantges over a DSLR for the K-01 or a compact with the Q seem very limated.

    The Nikon just doesnt seem to gain enough from putting a sensor that small onto it if you ask me, the body is really no smaller than the M or the NEX and the lenses arent much smaller than m43.

    I'd say alot depends on the kind of system your looking at aswell, m43 is aiming to be a broad system with a full range of lenses so the ability to make them smaller obviously helps. The Canon and the NEX on the other hand seem to be mostly targetting users who'll be happy with either the kit zoom or a pancake prime while catering to the higher end market with there DSLR/SLTs, I doubt you'll ever see a 24-70mm 2.8 equivilent for example on either the M or the E mount.
    Last edited by Moreorless; 23rd July 2012 at 13:44.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Actually the Canon is not so different from the NEX series, as they both will "suffer" from larger lenses.

    m43 seems to be really the sweet spot here.

    Besides that I do not see any advantage of the Canon compared to the OMD

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    I would personally love to love the Canon as I have a good selections of lenses, multiple flash systems, etc. However it really looks like a very weak offering. No viewfinder, large lenses, no IS, etc.

    Unless it really surprises me I will pass.

    Jim

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Did Canon launch a camera today? All I see is a sea of beige mirrorless cameras.
    Come on Canon, are there any photographers on your design team or are they just engineers? Where is the Leica killer or even a Fuji X Pro 1 killer?


    John
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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Thought about this a little more. I like the OM-D because it allows me to carry a little kit with high quality lenses. The reason I would want a Canon mirrorless would be so I could have a small kit with my existing Canon lenses and flash.

    However, have you ever picked up a Canon 70-200 or an 85 1.2 lenses and a 580 flash? If so you will understand why this will never be a small kit no matter the size of the body. On my recent vacation I carried an OM-D, 12-50, 45 1.8, 25 1.4 and a small flash. That's not too far off in size from my 24-105 lens alone.

    That fact that the new Canon can use existing lenses and Canon flash systems is a great plus but maybe not enough of one to compete.

    Jim
    Last edited by JMaher; 23rd July 2012 at 15:16.
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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Seems like perhaps a great addition if you have a substantial investment in EF lenses.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by JMaher View Post
    Thought about this a little more. I like the OM-D because it allows me to carry a little kit with high quality lenses. The reason I would want a Canon mirrorless would be so I could have a small kit with my existing Canon lenses and flash.

    However, have you ever picked up a Canon 70-200 or an 85 1.2 lenses and a 580 flash? If so you will understand why this will never be a small kit no matter the size of the body. On my recent vacation I carried an OM-D, 12-50, 45 1.8, 25 1.4 and a small flash. That's not too far off in size from my 24-105 lens alone.

    That fact that the new Canon can use existing lenses and Canon flash systems is a great plus but maybe not enough of one to compete.

    Jim
    Again I'd say it depends on the market there going after, the impression I get is that the vast majority of mirrorless sales are to users who never get beyond the kit zoom and perhaps a cheap pancake or tele zoom.

    One area I do think Canon have potentially one upped Sony is the small and relatively cheap 22mm pancake, the NEX has been crying out for something like that and instead got the the large and expensive Ziess 24mm.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    I'm bored, can we talk about something else?
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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    If I have read the copy correctly today, the EF-M is not compatible with the legacy Canon flash equipment, such as the 580EX II.

    If true, that's very lame.

    I'm not interested in this camera at all. A great disappointment like the GX1.

    Oh brother [Canon] where art thou?

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by donbga View Post
    If I have read the copy correctly today, the EF-M is not compatible with the legacy Canon flash equipment, such as the 580EX II.
    Canon EOS M hands-on preview: Digital Photography Review says that it's a standard Canon hotshoe.

    Canon EOS M hands-on preview: Digital Photography Review says:
    "The EOS M is part of the wider EOS system, which means its compatible with a wide range of existing accessories, including the Speedlite flash system..."

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Hmmm, nonsens in official German data sheet? Turnable & tiltable display.




    KIPON will make full electronical adapters Canon-m4/3 and Canon-NEX ... FORGET CANON EOS-M ... and Metabones

    http://www.dl-kipon.com/en/articledetail.asp?id=56

    Last edited by hot; 24th July 2012 at 03:10.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Ah much better than the adapters that put an additional iris behind the lens, with all the vignetting problems that introduces.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    The build quality seems several magnitudes higher than that of the Sony NEX.

    The innards:


    EOS M... de hombres y chasis

    I am impressed.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The build quality seems several magnitudes higher than that of the Sony NEX.

    The innards:


    EOS M... de hombres y chasis

    I am impressed.
    Hi Vivek - it does look good - I've not seen a similar breakdown of either the NEX7 or the OMD . . . ?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    It would appear from the posts here that this is not a good offering.

    I shall wait for the market ( specially in Japan ) to have the final say. Maybe it
    is, maybe it is not.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Ken Rockwell posted a review saying this is THE only mirrorless camera to get it right.
    How in the world can he expect ANYONE to take him seriously when he says that the Canon EOS M was the only mirrorless camera that got it right??? Ken, please, at least don´t be so obvious about getting money under the table to say an atrocity like this.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    It would appear from the posts here that this is not a good offering.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Vivek - it does look good - I've not seen a similar breakdown of either the NEX7 or the OMD . . . ?
    I have seen few of the NEX cams. Based on that the EOS-M looks impressive.
    The shutter unit seems very secure for starters.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    haha vivek, hehe, my 5n shutter has not fallen off yet, hehe. the EOS-M seems to be lacking buttons and depends alot on the touch screen. Also no mention yet for an EVF accessory. Lastly from the Verge website, they have tested EOS-M and they state the hybrid AF is laggy and is not as good as the NEX AF.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Ken Rockwell posted a review saying this is THE only mirrorless camera to get it right.
    How in the world can he expect ANYONE to take him seriously when he says that the Canon EOS M was the only mirrorless camera that got it right??? Ken, please, at least don´t be so obvious about getting money under the table to say an atrocity like this.
    Ken is an interesting character. He sways from one brand to another. There was a time he used to be absolute pro Nikon, now he has changed tune and now anything Canon is good.

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by mazor View Post
    Ken is an interesting character. He sways from one brand to another. There was a time he used to be absolute pro Nikon, now he has changed tune and now anything Canon is good.
    Not that interesting
    He simply makes the most eye catching comments, because it brings traffic to his site, which, in turn, earns him money.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Ken Rockwell posted a review saying this is THE only mirrorless camera to get it right.
    How in the world can he expect ANYONE to take him seriously when he says that the Canon EOS M was the only mirrorless camera that got it right??? Ken, please, at least don´t be so obvious about getting money under the table to say an atrocity like this.
    What Rockwell said was, it's the first "serious" mirrorless camera. We all know he's full of hyperbole, but I don't consider his perspecitive so outlandish.

    It really is the first mirrorless to offer a full compliment of pro-grade lenses, including many wide and long fixed aperture zooms. Plus what amounts to 80mm and 135mm f1.2 primes.

    m4/3 and all the rest? It's hard to take a 5.6 zoom "seriously." And good fast primes over 90 FOV? Well the 75 just came out, but that's about it.

    Now, why you would use a compact with those big lenses is another matter. But you can. That seems pretty serious to me.

    John

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    What Rockwell said was, it's the first "serious" mirrorless camera. We all know he's full of hyperbole, but I don't consider his perspecitive so outlandish.

    It really is the first mirrorless to offer a full compliment of pro-grade lenses, including many wide and long fixed aperture zooms. Plus what amounts to 80mm and 135mm f1.2 primes.
    HI John
    Canon do f5.6 zoom lenses as well - and from using 4/3 lenses on µ43 and using Sony A mount lenses on NEX I wouldn't be too optimistic about using the pro-grade lenses and AF. Added to which - as you say -if you're going to use a lens weighing 1kg why on earth wouldn't you put it on a 7D body?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    m4/3 and all the rest? It's hard to take a 5.6 zoom "seriously." And good fast primes over 90 FOV? Well the 75 just came out, but that's about it.

    John
    - µ43 has plenty of reasonably fast primes, for longer focal lengths you can grab yourself a Leica R lens if you really need quality . . . . or anything else you fancy.

    As for zooms there's an f2.8 35-70 zoom which weighs 300gms, and a 70-200 f2.8 coming soon which doesn't weigh much more. The 7-14 f4 zoom is generally acknowledged to be one of the very best of the breed, right up there with the Nikon 14-24.

    I'm not suggesting perfection, just pointing out that denying µ43 a 'serious' label and then attaching it to a little Canon camera which doesn't even have an EVF and apparently has rather slow AF is pushing it a bit!

    . . .. . and as we know, Ken says things so that he'll get hits, not because they're true. . . . . . he's even honest about his motivation, but that doesn't make his hyperbole any more convincing.

    Just this guy you know

  40. #40
    Senior Member JohnW's Avatar
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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Hi Jono,

    No doubt a little hyperbole on my part. I agree with what you say. I have no interest in the Canon M, nor would I personally consider it any more serious than any other mirrorless solution. Just pointing out that Ken's logic may not be completely off the wall, at least to his own Rockwellian way of thinking.

    John

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Hi Jono,

    No doubt a little hyperbole on my part. I agree with what you say. I have no interest in the Canon M, nor would I personally consider it any more serious than any other mirrorless solution. Just pointing out that Ken's logic may not be completely off the wall, at least to his own Rockwellian way of thinking.

    John
    IMHO We should all indulge in a little hyperbole - life would be so boring without it . . . .

    . . . . and I'm not really defending µ43 either.

    On the other hand, you've used two mutually exclusive phrases: "Ken's logic" and "Rockwellian way of thinking". I suppose he may be capable of these things, but I don't see much sign of it on his website

    right - it must be the weekend Have a great one - I'm off home.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Canon's strength is that they have been done more right than wrong to be where they are today. Their biggest success is their EF mount - which prionnering the non-mechanical mount from its time of release and they just reached the 80 million lenses mark with roughtly 10 million lens sales per 8-9 months.
    So anything to do to make use of such large lens base will bring good success.
    I use SONY NEX-7 and love it, I got the Metabones adapter to make use of Canon lens, because not much else to select from.
    I could use my large collection of Leica M on NEX but then in travel it means a lot of gears to travel so I am more looking at a companion system to carry along, that EOS-M fit into that carteria well but then I will wait for the more pro-oriented version because that is my choice. But I have no doubt the first EOS-M will do well - or may be just so so but we have to remember the large EOS base consumer, when Canon doing so so, those number to other camera brand can be wild.

    BR,
    Pingang

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    Re: Canon EOS-M mirror-less camera

    Canon EOS M review: was Canon's first mirrorless ILC worth the four-year wait? -- Engadget

    Here is a mini-review It likes the image colors and resolution but not the camera body

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