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Thread: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a.m.

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    anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a.m.

    I got my 5D back from max max yesterday and am in Fremont tomorrow and probably early Monday before going back to Fort Bragg. If someone wants to meet for a couple of hours and do some comparison shooting I can probably make some time.

    I took a few jpgs with it today and so far have seen only a very little aliasing in some hair. A finely woven sweater shows no evidence of aliasing at all. I'll post a few pics in a bit but be warned they are nothing to write home about.

    Mike

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    pics are at http://www.pbase.com/masimo/5d_hotrod please have a look and tell me what you think and how they compare to normal 5D pics. Unfortunaely all were taken with sharpening set to 2. the 5D is a new camera for me.

    Mike

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Hi Mike:

    I'm considering this same conversion. The reason is, to my eye the hot-rod has more inter-pixel sparkle, a clarity that is missing on the stock 5D. No, it doesn't make the 5D a MF back or even DMR, but it does improve it notably --- call it 50% there. The downside, at least on the full rez files I've studied, is the added artifacting. The good news is it only occurs in a narrow range of high-frequency detail and usually is such that it would go un-noticed in a print.

    My biggest hold up is putting $500 into a camera I hardly use any more... But then again, if I did the conversion, maybe I'd use it more? Decisions, decisions...

    PS: I'm across the bay in Los Altos, and would love to meet with you (even though I don't have any R glass anymore), but it's that time of year and I have family visiting from out of town --- maybe next time!

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    You are too far north for me, otherwise.... I also have a "spare", slotted for travel, 5D body that could be converted. I am still considering.... Please keep us updated on the results. Thanks.

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    pics are at http://www.pbase.com/masimo/5d_hotrod please have a look and tell me what you think and how they compare to normal 5D pics. Unfortunaely all were taken with sharpening set to 2. the 5D is a new camera for me.

    Mike

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Mike,
    Your pictures look just fine but it is difficult to render opinions on images that were not taken under the same shooting conditions. If I decide to have my 5D converted, I would take a few shots before sending the body in and do the same after and compare the before and after shots. Both times of the same subject and preferably using the same lighting setup.

    Joshua

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    MIke. I would be interested in doing this too. I live a mile or two from Jack. However, this weekend is not good for me either.Mark

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Maybe I could swing a few hours tomorrow, say mid morning in Alviso? I could bring my stock 5D and my two best lenses, the 90 TSE and 200 L.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Joshua,

    Joshua,

    I'll be in Irvine for Chinese New Years February 6th. Maybe we can get together then and shoot the two 5Ds with the same lenses. I have the 17-40, 24-105, 24mm TS-E, and 70-300 DO.

    Hopefully by that time I will also have a Sigma SD14 converted to Canon Ef mount.

    I did the max max conversion as soon as I got the camera because coming from the Sigma world and having seen some of Mark McAlmonts images I was pretty sure it was something I wanted to do. I do have some old mtf tests of the 5D with some xenotar lenses that I can quasi repeat sometime in January. I expect that the Koren lens target I used will show the moire up pretty well. Interestingly I compared them to the SD14 when I did them and the 5D system mtf was slightly better than the SD14 even with the AA filter. That was a different 5D than this one though.

    Mike

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Maybe I could swing a few hours tomorrow, say mid morning in Alviso? I could bring my stock 5D and my two best lenses, the 90 TSE and 200 L.

    Jack,

    That will probably work for me. I need to confirm with my wife and daughters. I'll get back to you later today.

    If we do it I'll be content to let you do the testing. I only have the camera, a flash and a 24-105 with me. If you have an extra plate for your tripod to put on the camera it'll make things a little faster.

    I only suggested Leica initially because that seemed to be the cameras to which the hotrod conversion would be most applicable.

    I agree with the sparkle and see it a lot in kodak 14x images. Unfortunately the kodaks have too many other problems to be a consideration for me.

    The Sigma of course has many of thoes same qualities. Many folks with Sigmas attribute it to the true color pixel but I think the lack of AA filter is just as important if not more so.

    Later,

    Mike

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Well I just opened my box on a brand new 5D this morning and not excited about it really but i would love to see some good side by sides done and if it looks good i will jump all over doing it than shave the mirror at the same time. than get a couple R lenses for the future R10 and use this in the meantime.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Quote Originally Posted by docmaas View Post
    Jack,

    That will probably work for me. I need to confirm with my wife and daughters. I'll get back to you later today.

    If we do it I'll be content to let you do the testing. I only have the camera, a flash and a 24-105 with me. If you have an extra plate for your tripod to put on the camera it'll make things a little faster.

    I only suggested Leica initially because that seemed to be the cameras to which the hotrod conversion would be most applicable.

    I agree with the sparkle and see it a lot in kodak 14x images. Unfortunately the kodaks have too many other problems to be a consideration for me.

    The Sigma of course has many of thoes same qualities. Many folks with Sigmas attribute it to the true color pixel but I think the lack of AA filter is just as important if not more so.

    Later,

    Mike
    Well Jack has a few good canon lenses the 90 TSE for one and even that doing a side by side should reveal what we want to see between the hot rod version and the stock version. i would love for you guys to also go after a shot that you know will moire.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Quote Originally Posted by docmaas View Post
    Joshua,

    Joshua,

    I'll be in Irvine for Chinese New Years February 6th. Maybe we can get together then and shoot the two 5Ds with the same lenses. I have the 17-40, 24-105, 24mm TS-E, and 70-300 DO.

    Mike
    Mike,
    I will be on the other side of the world that time, in Africa or Tanzania to be exact.... Sorry. I would like to hook up with you though. I do go up to Central Valley from time to time, maybe we can get together near Tracy or so. Better yet, the Sandhill Crane season is still going. Maybe near Lodi some place?

    Joshua

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Quote Originally Posted by AGeoJO View Post
    Mike,
    I will be on the other side of the world that time, in Africa or Tanzania to be exact.... Sorry. I would like to hook up with you though. I do go up to Central Valley from time to time, maybe we can get together near Tracy or so. Better yet, the Sandhill Crane season is still going. Maybe near Lodi some place?

    Joshua
    Joshua,

    I'll be going up to Seattle probably on the 28th but will be back at the latest second week in January. May go to PMA in Vegas followed by Death Valley then to Irvine.

    When were you thinking of?

    Mike

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Mike,
    It is likely that I will be up in the Central Valley in the 3rd week of January. I will email you around the 10th when I get back from Austin, TX. Too many plans, not enough time .

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Quote Originally Posted by AGeoJO View Post
    Mike,
    It is likely that I will be up in the Central Valley in the 3rd week of January. I will email you around the 10th when I get back from Austin, TX. Too many plans, not enough time .

    I know the feeling. Looking forward to your mail. I should be able to make that time frame. My sister lives in Rio Vista so I could stay there a couple of days.

    Best,

    Mike

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    You blokes blow me away… this is really interesting stuff … one thing which has caused me to resist the temptation to get into Canon digi is the muddiness (for lack of a better description) of the files. As Jack pointed out further up the thread they kinda lack that sparkle. The way I see it is the devil is very much in the detail with Canon files. And I’m looking for something with an edge… It not that they are bad as such with some subjects material they just lack that extra verve which pulls an image together into something a little more special. Its not quantifiable but it is tangibly there. It’s a bit like Leica lenses, they are not necessary better than other makes, but they have something.

    Hope this drivel is understandable to y'all. Then again I might be a bit mad.

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Completely understood. i just shot a couple frames with my new 5D and the 200 2.8 , nice sharp lens for what i need it for but the files put me asleep. They need a lot of processing
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Anyone know how MaxMax removes the AA filter? I thought this was cemented in place?

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    SOrry i could not join you -- how did it go and what were the results?

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    Anyone know how MaxMax removes the AA filter? I thought this was cemented in place?
    Here are illustrated instructions for the IR cut filter. I think the AA filter is similar. I wouldn't attempt this myself though.

    http://www.lifepixel.com/ir-tutorial...structions.htm

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Quote Originally Posted by mark1958 View Post
    SOrry i could not join you -- how did it go and what were the results?
    Jack and I met and spent about an hour on some different targets. What I have seen so far is that the impact of the aa filter is obvious both in the original size pics where texture is more obvious with the modified and in huge pixellated blowups of irregularly shaped objects where the aa filter spreads the colors of the object over a larger amount of space effectively blurring it. The number of colors is also impacted by the aa filter as it appears to cause a secondary blendng of colors through the blurring process. A color count using irfanview between two matching shots shows 862981 unique colors in the non AA version vs 801291 in the AA filtered image. There isn't much difference though in very straight edges like letters nor as far as I could tell in repeating patterns like chicken wire. I used Adobe Raw Converter on a Mac other raw converters may reveal more and different differences.

    I haven't seen any aliasing at all.

    I'll post some examples of my findings later today.

    Mike

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    My comments after just a cursory view echo Mike's as respect color. His camera seemed to produce more saturation and slightly better inter-pixel contrast --- I was not surprise at the inter-pixel contrast, but was surprised by the more intense color (positively so).

    We used the 200L at f5.6 on both cameras, then the 28/1.8 prime on my camera at f8 and the 24-105 zoom at 28mm f8 on his camera. You can see more fine detail with the hot rod, but frankly I only noticed this with regularity with the 200L in fine structure --- as Mike said, no difference rendering chicken-wire at 50 meters distance with either camera, but there was on the stucco of the building at that distance. IOW, more detail is there, but it has to be pretty fine and you have to be at 100% to see it. To quantify further, I would say the 5D hot rod resolves about halfway between the 5D and 1Ds2.

    I noted some aliasing in the stucco on the building we shot with the 200 on his camera, which was also where I saw the most prominent detail gain. IMO the aliasing was so slight as to be a non-issue, while the detail gain was more notable. (Whether it would show significantly in a print is debatable, and I will print the crops up tomorrow and comment afterward.) I did notice some gains in detail on higher-contrast features with the lesser lenses, such as corrugated metal siding on a building, but this was slight and would probably never render in a print.

    IMO, the big gain is in tonality and color fidelity --- the hot rod looks better out of the box --- and a little bit of "crispness" that Canon files generally lack. I was hoping for enough more crispness to make the 5D file look more like a DMR, but sadly, that wasn't the case --- the hot rod gets maybe 25% of the way there from the regular 5D.

    I'll try and work up some crops to post later tomorrow. I again want to thank Mike for allowing me the opportunity to meet with him and compare our cameras!
    Jack
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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Very interesting reading… look forward to seeing some samples

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    I posted full size pics from both cameras along with a couple of crops illustrating some of what I found.

    http://www.pbase.com/masimo/5d_hotrod

    I replaced the rock images with correctly sized images.

    Mike
    Last edited by docmaas; 26th December 2007 at 00:53. Reason: replaced pictures

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Forgot to mention that the pics were converted with ACR (latest version) and that all sharpening and noise reduction are set to 0.

    Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by docmaas View Post
    I posted full size pics from both cameras along with a couple of crops illustrating some of what I found.

    http://www.pbase.com/masimo/5d_hotrod

    I replaced the rock images with correctly sized images.

    Mike

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Part 2 --- the images.

    Here are my images with little commentary. First, all were processed in ACR at the same settings except where indicated, the lens used was the 200 L.

    For reference, here are the full shots. I used "as shot" WB on both. Interestingly the 5D Reg was 5500 +7 while the 5D Hot Rod was 5450 -5 --- This is very close on base color temp at only 50 degrees apart, but significantly different on tint at 12 points different. (Note: Don't pay too much attention to the sky as there were fewer background clouds when we shot the Hot Rod.) The exposure was 1/2000 @ f5.6, ISO 200 for both cameras:

    5D Reg:


    5D HR:


    Here are the first two crops. The first is the 5D reg and second is the 5D HR which received identical post processing of just light sharpening to extract detail. Note the difference in interpixel contrast and color saturation. Then I added some post to the 5D Reg crop to add some interpixel contrast which also added a bit of saturation to make it look more like the Hot Rod. The two files now look pretty close, except you can still see more detail in the Hot Rod crop. I have circled the light artifacting I mentioned earlier in the Hot Rod crop (which I feel is of zero consequence).

    Reg:


    Hot Rod:


    Reg, additional post:


    Lastly, here are a pair of crops from the top of the image, again these were identically processed with WB "as shot". I include this to show the difference in red and blue hues. IMO removing the AA filter seems to generate better color, at least to my eye. The added clarity of the Hot Rod can be seen in the stucco, in the roof tiles and along the high-contrast edges of the peeling paint:

    5D Reg:


    5D Hot Rod:


    ~~~

    Now for the true test, a print --- but keep in mind this is purely subjective and I have no way to "show" these subtleties online...

    I printed the crop ares out on glossy paper for direct side-by-side comparisons at both 360 PPI and 240 PPI. My assumption was the Hot Rod might show better at 240 than the Regular due to no AA filter and corresponding cleaner pixel edges. The bottom line is that even when viewing the prints under a loupe, the detail differences seen at 100% above are essentially undetectable in a print at EITHER resolution. I say essentially because in the high contrast paint chips, I see what may be the impression of crisper edges, but it is not definitive. IOW they all look pretty identical from a resolution standpoint. Also, as expected, the slight artifacting in the Hot Rod file is undetectable.

    However, color is a different story --- and a minor surprise as well. In the prints, the most accurate looking file as processed (and to my eye) was the regular 5D with my added post processing, followed by the regular 5D's. For whatever reason, there was a slight --- and I mean slight --- muddiness in the colors of the Hot Rod file, even though they look better in the online sRGB crops (again, at least to my eye). Please note the difference I'm describing here are *very* slight and I only mention them because I noted them when viewing the print. Moreover, I am confident a more selective raw white balance accompanied by a simple print output curve tailored to the hot rod would alleviate this minor difference.

    ~~~

    Conclusion for me: If the 5D were my only camera AND if I was going to be posting/presenting jpegs, I would do the conversion. However, for my uses and the way I process files for print output, I don't see enough added benefit to warrant the conversion.

    As always, this is my opinion only and YMMV
    Jack
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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    My IMO, the big gain is in tonality and color fidelity --- the hot rod looks better out of the box --- and a little bit of "crispness" that Canon files generally lack. I was hoping for enough more crispness to make the 5D file look more like a DMR, but sadly, that wasn't the case --- the hot rod gets maybe 25% of the way there from the regular 5D.
    It may be that the DMR's qualities are related more to the CCD sensor and the camera's processing than the lack of an AA filter.

    Robert

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    Re: anyone with a leica and eos mountable leica lens for a shoot tomoorow or Monday a

    It seems the AA filter also degrades color and reason many of us think Canon files are flat looking.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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