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Thread: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Personally I would still pick the 5Ds over the R, even more so now when I've started to work with prints, where micro contrast is of less importance and aliasing is more worrying.
    Very interesting as I thought all MFD shooters would jump at the R version as many seem to love and have switched to the AA filter free Nikon D810 or Sony A7r which in theory should suffer more from aliasing having less pixels.

    I shoot architecture and product photography so it seems I may need both versions, R for product and regular S for architecture?

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Very interesting as I thought all MFD shooters would jump at the R version as many seem to love and have switched to the AA filter free Nikon D810 or Sony A7r which in theory should suffer more from aliasing having less pixels.

    I shoot architecture and product photography so it seems I may need both versions, R for product and regular S for architecture?
    Well, I'm a software engineer professionally and serious enthusiast landscape photographer. I've done quite some contributions to raw software, and when you get to see things on the "signal level" the taste gets a bit different I guess. What is detail worth if it's false? You can get a similar crisp look by adding a little noise. I've spent quite some time to look at different demosaicers and false color reduction etc, and my taste has then been turned towards shoot with more diffraction to smoothen things up, and AA filter yes please if it's available.

    I can't deny that there is a certain type of satisfaction of zooming to 100% and see that special crispiness, but really, that's artificial image quality. An image that instead is a little bit smoother is very robust to scaling and transformation (printing in huge sizes, lens corrections, rotations), and with proper sharpening workflow the detail loss is say 1-2% (Bart at Lula can explain in detail). AA filters in cameras are not particularly strong, just enough to remove the worst artifacts.

    One more thing is that for a demosaicer to hide color aliasing issues it seems like it must lower it's color resolution in some way. This haven't been that much investigated but I would not be surprised if you actually could get slightly better color resolution from the AA filtered sensor.

    I don't believe that there is any global advantage of not having an AA filter, that is if you zoom out or look at a distance so you don't see the pixel peep level then you won't see a difference. This is one of those religion type of things though. Before the D800 when there was a bigger gap between MFD and 135 the "no AA filter = feature" view grew strong, but I think it has more to do with that it was a differentiator than it actually provides a real advantage (except for pixel crisp).

    So I think you should only need one, the 5Ds... but yes it will be against the mainstream taste. There's nothing wrong in liking that pixel peep crispness and accept that the cost is false colors and details and occassional moire, but I think if someone made a well-presented case with A/B comparisons of the false color issues popping out here and there (also in "organic" subjects) I think more would be skeptical about the R.

    There have been some D800 vs D800E comparisons, but I don't think anyone with a deeper knowledge of aliasing artifacts, so they only looked for moire patterns which are rare (moving water can be a pain though, but fortunately shutter speeds on the tech cam usually smoothens out the water.. hehe). If I get the chance sometime maybe I'll do a 5Ds vs 5Ds R comparison.

    It should be said though that microlenses help (since more of the pixel area is sampled), so the 5Ds R will have less moire and false color issues than my H4D-50, I just don't know how large the difference will be.

    I think it will probably be like this; there will be more aliasing with the R and you can show it, also in organic subjects, but it will be at a level that some say "it's not too bad, I'll accept that", but on the other hand the sharpness difference will be very small too after proper post-processing. So it becomes very much a matter of taste, what would you rather get, drop 1-2% in resolution but get more accurate details, or the other way around? Since pixel peep sharpness stands very strong I think the R will win in most cases.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Concerning the DR, the most likely thing seems to be that it's like the 7DII on the pixel level. It means a ~12 stop camera without any banding or other noise pattern issues. That's not bad in an absolute sense, I can work with that in landscape no problem.

    But it does means that Canon is sort of last place in the DR race, and that's unfortunate, I'd like to see tighter competition now when Sony has a monopoly on high MP sensors with high DR. The lesser DR also means less pressure on the MF companies, which I also think is unfortunate as I think they need even more pressure to come up with some better business model that end customers would benefit from...
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    The lack of improvement in DR is my only beef, although if files are free of nasty banding when shadows are pulled that's at least something. Looks like a great camera, but regarding DR I can only sigh in exasperation at Canon's total lack of meaningful progress.

    For those implying that extra DR is only being requested by people who cannot expose properly, or who are pushing their files too far, I guess you don't do many 'on the ground' cityscapes at night (hello bright street lights and deep shadows in unlit areas) or do much contre jour shooting where flash is not remotely feasible. Sure, I can live with Canon DR 98% of my shooting, but when shooting London at night the lack of DR on my 5D III started to drive me nuts while my friend sailed along with his D600. I ended up having to use Nik Dfine to control banding in a fair percentage of my shots. You cannot always do exposure blending with moving (lit) water and other moving elements in the scene. If I can get 14 stops out of my£400 APS-C compact I feel I have every right to feel peeved that Canon falls two stops short of that with a full-frame camera launching at £3000. Its not like we need the additional DR all the time, its just that when you need it, you need it. Besides, we are only asking that Canon give us what pretty well every camera under the sun now has: more than 12 stops. Heck, the original RX100 compact with a sensor the size of an ant has more DR! So.. please stop implying we don't know how to use a camera or post process. Its just that your needs are not ours.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Before all us Canon shooters get too down in the dumps and go jump off a bridge over the DR and how rubbish the 5Ds will be, I've just had a look at what else was announced today and I feel its worth mentioning the new EF 11-24mm F4L. I already own the 17mm TS-E and while not perfect I have always considered it Canon's crowning glory and a fantastic piece of glass but this new 11-24mm just looks jaw dropping!!
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Before all us Canon shooters get too down in the dumps and go jump off a bridge over the DR and how rubbish the 5Ds will be, I've just had a look at what else was announced today and I feel its worth mentioning the new EF 11-24mm F4L. I already own the 17mm TS-E and while not perfect I have always considered it Canon's crowning glory and a fantastic piece of glass but this new 11-24mm just looks jaw dropping!!
    A lot of Sony users would be interested in the lens despite it looking HUGE even on the 5Ds body.

    I think the rear filter slot is a very nice touch.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    No doubt this monster lens is being launched because they know they have to produce a lens for landscapers that can have a fair stab at 50MP. The lens looks incredible and judging by the performance of recent wide angle L zooms, I expect performance to be superb.

    I certainly don't think the 5Ds will be any more rubbish than the 5D III I own, but I did dare to hope we would have a bit more of, you know, that stuff which cannot be mentioned!

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Personally, I see no use for a high megapixel camera if you don't print large. When I buy a HMP camera this year, I will make sure it is the best option under my budget possibilities.
    A good portrait studio would be better set with a 645Z for the tonality. A landscape photographer too but under a budget, FF is a must. Nikon, Canon and Sony (soon Pentax) have second best choices.
    Which is best for me? As I see it today and being invested in Canon L glass, the Sony still looks the way to go. I will keep my 6D for everything else that demands speed or for low-light conditions. In short, for all photography without a tripod.

    I'm sure at Metabones they're going now for the the fourth case of Veuve Clicquot. Cheers!

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    It's a step up for Canon, but far from revolutionary. I was hoping for a home run. (A little too late to the party, Canon)

    I'm still hoping that the "s" in the 5Ds model is a sign that a 1D series body with commensurate improvements is in the making. But somehow why is it I feel like Canon and Nikon have switched places (from about ten years ago) where Nikon had nothing with its feeble attempts to "sell" pros that DX sized sensors were all you needed while they cleaned up in the P&S market making money and only Canon had a FF DSLR?....

    I have all this Canon L glass and I'm not about to jump ship. So I wait. I don't care what Sony/Nikon are doing. Maybe I'll pick up the 5Dsr, maybe not. Maybe I'll just wait until Guy buys one and sells it after a few weeks....

    Fingers-crossed for a really clean 6400---not that sketchy thin 3200 file that I get with the 1DsIII.

    my .02. So I wait.....
    Last edited by kdphotography; 6th February 2015 at 10:24.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Torger, I love the way you explain things. Certainly this is not a black or white universe and of course photography neither.
    Regards and thanks
    Eduardo

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Well, I'm a software engineer professionally and serious enthusiast landscape photographer. I've done quite some contributions to raw software, and when you get to see things on the "signal level" the taste gets a bit different I guess. What is detail worth if it's false? You can get a similar crisp look by adding a little noise. I've spent quite some time to look at different demosaicers and false color reduction etc, and my taste has then been turned towards shoot with more diffraction to smoothen things up, and AA filter yes please if it's available.

    I can't deny that there is a certain type of satisfaction of zooming to 100% and see that special crispiness, but really, that's artificial image quality. An image that instead is a little bit smoother is very robust to scaling and transformation (printing in huge sizes, lens corrections, rotations), and with proper sharpening workflow the detail loss is say 1-2% (Bart at Lula can explain in detail). AA filters in cameras are not particularly strong, just enough to remove the worst artifacts.

    One more thing is that for a demosaicer to hide color aliasing issues it seems like it must lower it's color resolution in some way. This haven't been that much investigated but I would not be surprised if you actually could get slightly better color resolution from the AA filtered sensor.

    I don't believe that there is any global advantage of not having an AA filter, that is if you zoom out or look at a distance so you don't see the pixel peep level then you won't see a difference. This is one of those religion type of things though. Before the D800 when there was a bigger gap between MFD and 135 the "no AA filter = feature" view grew strong, but I think it has more to do with that it was a differentiator than it actually provides a real advantage (except for pixel crisp).

    So I think you should only need one, the 5Ds... but yes it will be against the mainstream taste. There's nothing wrong in liking that pixel peep crispness and accept that the cost is false colors and details and occassional moire, but I think if someone made a well-presented case with A/B comparisons of the false color issues popping out here and there (also in "organic" subjects) I think more would be skeptical about the R.

    There have been some D800 vs D800E comparisons, but I don't think anyone with a deeper knowledge of aliasing artifacts, so they only looked for moire patterns which are rare (moving water can be a pain though, but fortunately shutter speeds on the tech cam usually smoothens out the water.. hehe). If I get the chance sometime maybe I'll do a 5Ds vs 5Ds R comparison.

    It should be said though that microlenses help (since more of the pixel area is sampled), so the 5Ds R will have less moire and false color issues than my H4D-50, I just don't know how large the difference will be.

    I think it will probably be like this; there will be more aliasing with the R and you can show it, also in organic subjects, but it will be at a level that some say "it's not too bad, I'll accept that", but on the other hand the sharpness difference will be very small too after proper post-processing. So it becomes very much a matter of taste, what would you rather get, drop 1-2% in resolution but get more accurate details, or the other way around? Since pixel peep sharpness stands very strong I think the R will win in most cases.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    Really,

    Doubling the MP's is not raising the bar. Phase One and HB are shaking in their boots!

    I guess you need 100MP and DR of 20EV to make a statement
    Phase One sales are up year-over-year since the financial crises. They increased when the 645D was released, increased when the D800 was released, and we've been selling IQ250s more quickly after the release of the 645Z than before. Anytime the market talks about image quality and gets people thinking about the benefits of resolution/dynamic-range/color/tonal-smoothness/lens-quality, Phase One benefits.

    I'll be in SF next month if you'd like to get together and play with a Phase/Leaf system and drink some scotch. Schneider lenses that can hold their resolution wide open, big and bright viewfinders, sync speed of 1/1600th, access to tech cameras with native rise/fall/shift/tilt/swing on every lens, huge dynamic range, files that hold up to lots of abuse in post and still look organic, beautiful tonal transitions, and color only achievable by tightly integrating hardware and software. I think you'll see why, no, we are not shaking in our boots, but rather cheering Canon on. 2015 looks very bright for us.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Disappointed..for landscape work dynamic range makes a big difference..I'll be waiting for the Sony a7r version 2. .
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Phase One sales are up year-over-year since the financial crises. They increased when the 645D was released, increased when the D800 was released, and we've been selling IQ250s more quickly after the release of the 645Z than before. Anytime the market talks about image quality and gets people thinking about the benefits of resolution/dynamic-range/color/tonal-smoothness/lens-quality, Phase One benefits.

    I'll be in SF next month if you'd like to get together and play with a Phase/Leaf system and drink some scotch. Schneider lenses that can hold their resolution wide open, big and bright viewfinders, sync speed of 1/1600th, access to tech cameras with native rise/fall/shift/tilt/swing on every lens, huge dynamic range, files that hold up to lots of abuse in post and still look organic, beautiful tonal transitions, and color only achievable by tightly integrating hardware and software. I think you'll see why, no, we are not shaking in our boots, but rather cheering Canon on. 2015 looks very bright for us.

    Hey Doug,

    Will Capture One be available for the 5Ds when the camera is available in June?

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharokin View Post
    Hey Doug,

    Will Capture One be available for the 5Ds when the camera is available in June?
    Support for new cameras has, historically, been added to Capture One Pro 1-3 months after the camera ships. I have no reason to expect any different for this camera. That would point to a July-September timeframe.

    Timeframe varies based on how different the sensor is from previous sensors, whether the manufacturer gets a camera to Phase earlier-than-launch (usually not), and what cycle C1 is in when they get the camera (i.e. if they get it a day after they've just released a new version then it might be longer than if they get it two weeks before the planned launch for a new version).

    Sometimes raw support is provided before tethered support. This is especially true when a new tethering protocol is used. Given Canon's switch to USB3 with this model, and some of the ongoing issues with 35mm dSLR USB3 drivers and OSX and power (see also Nikon D800), I suspect this might be the case this time.

    Of course, it's all just speculation at this point (predicated on past experience and knowledge of the process, but speculation none the less).
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    The highest resolution sensor in an improved version of an immensely popular and proven camera body. Looks like a winner to me. Add to that the widest lens and the fact that other Canon lenses seem to be up to the task makes it a double win. If I were a Canon user, I would have been on the waiting list already.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Phase One sales are up year-over-year since the financial crises. They increased when the 645D was released, increased when the D800 was released, and we've been selling IQ250s more quickly after the release of the 645Z than before. Anytime the market talks about image quality and gets people thinking about the benefits of resolution/dynamic-range/color/tonal-smoothness/lens-quality, Phase One benefits.

    I'll be in SF next month if you'd like to get together and play with a Phase/Leaf system and drink some scotch. Schneider lenses that can hold their resolution wide open, big and bright viewfinders, sync speed of 1/1600th, access to tech cameras with native rise/fall/shift/tilt/swing on every lens, huge dynamic range, files that hold up to lots of abuse in post and still look organic, beautiful tonal transitions, and color only achievable by tightly integrating hardware and software. I think you'll see why, no, we are not shaking in our boots, but rather cheering Canon on. 2015 looks very bright for us.


    I have owed a P21,P40+, Alpa tech cam and loved them.
    Hard to beat the larger sensor and great lenses.
    I am looking to get back into photography and buy a new system this spring. I still drool over P1 gear, but the camera body is 30 years behind the times. When a new DF++ body comes out I will look again

    At least with the DF+ body you can fine tune the lenses which was lacking before.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    After reading and listening to the info available about the 5DS(R) I started to like this camera(s) very much. The 5D3 body design, a great high res sensor all in a reasonably priced package and an upcoming newer version of the 5D3 later this year for action shooting makes for a really great start. Plus the fact that there are already a number of L lenses which are up to the 50MP resolution - at least the latest designs.

    Actually now that I am completely out of Nikon (since some 6 months) this new Canon ecosystem becomes very tempting for me. Interesting how times change .....
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    The fact that people here are even comparing this new release by Canon to MF systems that are so far apart when it comes to costs, size and ease of operations is a huge complement to where 35mm camera tech has gone. I am so eagerly looking forward to getting my hands on the 5DSr.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    I just can't stop talking about 5DS vs 5DS R :-). I just hope Canon won't go the Nikon way and drop the AA filter in the next model, but for that to happen the taste among high res photographers needs to change.

    When you evaluate which one to get I think one should ask the following questions
    * Do you see a difference on a scaled down image, ie when not pixel peeping?
    * Do you ever scale or transform your picture (for printing, for lens corrections, rotations, perspective corrections), and if so do you think an aliased picture responds better or worse to those operations?
    * Resolution-wise you lose about 1-2% resolving power with the AA filter, do you think that 50 megapixels is so low pixel count that you need those 1-2% extra with the drawbacks of aliasing?

    If you think there's a difference on a scaled down image and the 5DS R looks better, then it's clear cut. I don't think there will be a difference on scaled down (except for moire) and there is no scientific reason why there would be a difference, but well you never now.

    If your conclusion is that it only comes down to pixel peeping, then it's time to start valuing how much that is worth. Worse scaling/transform properties, color aliasing, moire on one hand and 1-2% extra pixel peep resolution on the other, which most likely only exists there on your screen. When you publish there's either scaling down, or scaling up and when you scale up aliasing is not your friend.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    I hold my hands up and freely admit I understand very little about the tech behind all this but seeing as the 5DsR has an AA filter that is cancelled is it possible to have, for example 50% cancelling or is it a case of all or nothing? Can the R version potentially be a mid way between with and without AA filter that we won't know until it gets into users hands?

    In my product photography I've seen plenty of shots blown up large on exhibition stands and I know some of the photographers use 39Mpix (some less) backs and they have jaggies galore on the printed images. From a distance these are not noticable but what is apparent is they seems to have lots of detail (micro contrast?) and be it real or false it gives the shots that MFD look. With this in mind, is the 5DsR not a better match for this look, ailaising warts and all with the 5Ds just looking like another 35mm pretender?

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    I am pretty sure from what I read so far, that the 5DSR AA filter canceling works similar to what Nikon used in their D800E. Which I shot for over 3 years and never had any issues with moire etc. Also sharpness and resolution was just right and how to be expected - even when pixel peeping.

    The real concern is: how good are the lenses you use - with Nikon a lot of the lenses were not up to even 36MP. So I really hope it is true what Canon said, that most of their L glass (at least their latest) are up to 50MP resolution.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    I agree torger. I was thinking that the regular 5Ds looks a more sensible bet for most people. The other issue is the apertures you use. A lens will have to be used at its best apertures to see any real difference in the R model. These are small pixels, so presumably diffraction will be even more noticeable and so the aperture will need to be even more optimal than with the D800 to benefit from the R. Is my logic sound here - can someone more technically minded help? But anyway, reason may not come into it. I suspect people will flock to the R as Canon has pitched it as offering 'more resolution' Did you hear me? I said more!

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    We can make some estimates ourselves and the bottom line is this: if it shows any deficiencies whatsoever on the 5D III in terms of resolution, it will fall apart in those areas on the 5Ds. I do however think that Canon is far better positioned than Nikon was 3 years ago re lenses, but there still are not that many wides and superwides that will convince at the edge and in the corners.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I am pretty sure from what I read so far, that the 5DSR AA filter canceling works similar to what Nikon used in their D800E. Which I shot for over 3 years and never had any issues with moire etc. Also sharpness and resolution was just right and how to be expected - even when pixel peeping.

    The real concern is: how good are the lenses you use - with Nikon a lot of the lenses were not up to even 36MP. So I really hope it is true what Canon said, that most of their L glass (at least their latest) are up to 50MP resolution.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    We can make some estimates ourselves and the bottom line is this: if it shows any deficiencies whatsoever on the 5D III it will fall apart in those areas on the 5Ds. I do however think that Canon is far better positioned than Nikon was 3 years ago re lenses....
    Lets hope

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I hold my hands up and freely admit I understand very little about the tech behind all this but seeing as the 5DsR has an AA filter that is cancelled is it possible to have, for example 50% cancelling or is it a case of all or nothing? Can the R version potentially be a mid way between with and without AA filter that we won't know until it gets into users hands?

    In my product photography I've seen plenty of shots blown up large on exhibition stands and I know some of the photographers use 39Mpix (some less) backs and they have jaggies galore on the printed images. From a distance these are not noticable but what is apparent is they seems to have lots of detail (micro contrast?) and be it real or false it gives the shots that MFD look. With this in mind, is the 5DsR not a better match for this look, ailaising warts and all with the 5Ds just looking like another 35mm pretender?
    I guess it would be possible to make a 50% cancelling, but I don't think that's how they've done it, you wouldn't get that cutting feeling when peeping if they leave some AA-effect in.

    It's important to note that a camera AA filter is quite weak too, it *is* possible to get moire with AA filtered cameras too, it's just a whole lot harder. So the manufacturer chooses some threshold where you get away with almost all moire and aliasing in almost all situations, but not not more than that so you keep almost all real resolution.

    Then we get the interesting question - if the AA filter does not solve the problem 100%, how much worse is it then to be without AA filter? I cannot answer that question really so I'd like to test. How sharp lenses are and how effective the microlenses on the sensor are will have an effect. If there was such a thing as an aliasing-problem-scale I'd think that being with AA filter would be 95% problem free, and without would be 30%, ie there is quite a large difference, but say it would be 70 vs 60 percent than one maybe think the R would be worth it...

    I do know that the microlens-less MFD sensors like 39 megapixels P45+ and indeed my H4D-50 combined with razor-sharp tech lenses will have more aliasing issues than the 5DsR, but without testing I don't know how large the difference is. Would I buy "in the blind" I'd surely go for the 5Ds though, for the principles behind it. 1-2% extra resolution is not worth the possible extra issues.

    The other point is interesting, if those aliasing artifacts in fact is an important component of the elusive "MFD look". I don't know. I haven't really seen the "MFD look" and not really seen anything special about it. The older CCDs have both this pixel peep microcontrast thing but also quite high noise level so you get a certain "grain" or texture, while a clean CMOS with AA filter might look more "artificial" despite it's more exact in its capture. Possibly this is a "MFD look" thing, but again it's pixel peeping. Now when MFD has the superclean CMOS that aspect is going away.

    I'm pretty allergic to pixelated prints, but that too is a matter of taste. I haven't yet had much experience of really large prints, but heard others experiment with adding some light high resolution noise on top of the upscaled image to get a pleasing texture up close on the finished print, and that's probably something I would look into too, but to make the upscale work well to start with the original picture must be suitably soft on the pixel level otherwise pixelation is very hard to get rid of. I don't like the look of fractal upscalers, creating more resolution than was captured is simply not a good idea. I've looked at a lot of upscaling algorithms and the basic "bicubic smoother" always gives the best looking result.

    As noone really knows what the MFD look is it is tempting to mimic them as much as possible, and sure the 5DsR is more like them. But pixelpeeping an image to find the MFD look I think is cheating

    The reason why MFD lacks AA filters is not fully clear to me, but if I may guess the reason is that the CCDs used, which are used for many other applications, did not come with AA filters in the standard product range so they would have to be developed specifically for photography probably at a steep cost, and then it was better to make it a feature. More resolution is easy to understand and see, while the advantages of a slightly softer image takes a bit longer time to explain... I think it became more obvious to me now when I've started with printmaking, you're always resampling the image to match the print size, that pixel peep sharpness becomes less useful and that aliasing becomes more of a pain.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Yes I think too that Canon is better prepared concerning lens resolving power than Nikon was. The Digital Picture has some excellent peeping tests of a lots of lenses and Canon wins again and again over the Nikon lens range when compared side by side. Canons lenses are more expensive too though.

    I'm quite sure they won't reach all the way to medium format sharpness though, ie Hassy H and DF+ with a 50c or IQ250 will make sharper 50 megapixels. One have to be a bit practical too, the closest to "no compromise" lenses is probably the Zeiss Otus range, and they're not exactly lightweight or cheap. My feeling is that Canon has struck a pretty good balance between resolving power and being practical.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Hypothetically, if a 5DsR has a defraction limit of for example f8, is it better to shoot at f11 to slightly blur aliasing when required as with your MFD printing workflow but when this is not an issue benefit from the sharper AA free sensor?

    Sorry if my posts are driving you round in circles as my thinking is if I miss this Canon and wait for the Sony 50Mpix which will be AA free, the worry of false colour and aliasing actually put the Canon in better favour even with 2 stops less DR???

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Hypothetically, if a 5DsR has a defraction limit of for example f8, is it better to shoot at f11 to slightly blur aliasing when required as with your MFD printing workflow but when this is not an issue benefit from the sharper AA free sensor?

    Sorry if my posts are driving you round in circles as my thinking is if I miss this Canon and wait for the Sony 50Mpix which will be AA free, the worry of false colour and aliasing actually put the Canon in better favour even with 2 stops less DR???
    Despite the maybe possible advantages of a Sony 50MP version camera, the most important thing is the quality lens lineup. And there Canon wins hands down WRT IQ and number of high quality L glass in every focal length and for all special purposes.

    So my choice would be clear .... Canon! Even if DR is maybe not as good as an upcoming 50MP Sony sensor

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Hypothetically, if a 5DsR has a defraction limit of for example f8, is it better to shoot at f11 to slightly blur aliasing when required as with your MFD printing workflow but when this is not an issue benefit from the sharper AA free sensor?

    Sorry if my posts are driving you round in circles as my thinking is if I miss this Canon and wait for the Sony 50Mpix which will be AA free, the worry of false colour and aliasing actually put the Canon in better favour even with 2 stops less DR???
    Yes, diffraction blur help, but not as much as an AA filter, that is AA filter can kill aliasing with less blur than diffraction needs.

    f/8 on a 36x24mm sensor corresponds to about f/11 at with my H4D-50 49x37. I've attached a pixel peep crop of an f/11 shot using a SK47XL, that is similar to how f/8 on a sharp lens would look on the 5DsR. The sharpness is of course mouthwatering, but thinking one step further, if I ever want to upsize this good luck with hiding those jagged lines. And if I downsize I won't have any use of that extra microcontrast.

    Those magenta-toned pixels here and there was of course not there in real world, that's false colors. This is using Phocus which when I've tested a few raw converter is among the best at hiding false color aliasing. The image is also a bit desaturated so it's not a worst case in any way. False colors are most often seen as pink/magenta and green/cyan in edge zones of small details.

    Of course it would have been great now if I had the same shot at f/16... unfortunately where I sit now I don't have any such example, but yes at f/16 the image has less aliasing. In fact I've now started to shoot at f/16 as base aperture unless I need a quicker shutter speed. I am quite positive that f/11 with AA filter would have lead to less aliasing and sharper image than f/16 without AA.

    I'm sure some looking at those crops would think that I'm overly picky on those false colors, but then my question back is aren't you overly picky on pixel peep sharpness, skipping the AA filter is like wanting 55 instead of 50 megapixels. It's a philosophical question what real image quality is.

    The question "would you rather have a 50 mpx AA-filtered camera with 12 stops, or a 50 mpx AA-less camera with 14 stops?" is kind of cruel . I know that for my shooting style and my dreams of printing really big the 12 stop with AA would do the most for image quality... but pushing shadows crazy amounts and watching how increadible clean they is just as poisonous attractive like pixelpeep crops that cut you.

    I really like using my Linhof Techno so I have no such choice to make though, but if I would choose between getting a 5Ds or a Sony A7rII with adapters, I would get the 5Ds, but other things like I prefer the body and user interface of the Canon would also be part of the decision. I surely would hold forward the merits of AA filter though when my poor Canon would get DR-bashed by some Nikon or Sony guy

    I hear some photographers claim that with Canon they would need to HDR-blend 90% of their shots, and with a 14 stop Nikon or Sony that dropped to 10%, and sure if I had that shooting style and post-processing style which would benefit so much in workflow from those 2 extra stops, then I would probably go that way. But I'm used to working with 12 stop and don't tonemap that much and then 12 stops is plenty, especially if that banding goes away...
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Doug,

    FYI - I've had zero issues with my D800E, USB3, macbook pro with Yosemite after the latest updates. It's been great. Thank you Capture One.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Support for new cameras has, historically, been added to Capture One Pro 1-3 months after the camera ships. I have no reason to expect any different for this camera. That would point to a July-September timeframe.

    Timeframe varies based on how different the sensor is from previous sensors, whether the manufacturer gets a camera to Phase earlier-than-launch (usually not), and what cycle C1 is in when they get the camera (i.e. if they get it a day after they've just released a new version then it might be longer than if they get it two weeks before the planned launch for a new version).

    Sometimes raw support is provided before tethered support. This is especially true when a new tethering protocol is used. Given Canon's switch to USB3 with this model, and some of the ongoing issues with 35mm dSLR USB3 drivers and OSX and power (see also Nikon D800), I suspect this might be the case this time.

    Of course, it's all just speculation at this point (predicated on past experience and knowledge of the process, but speculation none the less).

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Despite the maybe possible advantages of a Sony 50MP version camera, the most important thing is the quality lens lineup. And there Canon wins hands down WRT IQ and number of high quality L glass in every focal length and for all special purposes.

    So my choice would be clear .... Canon! Even if DR is maybe not as good as an upcoming 50MP Sony sensor
    I've been very unimpressed with most of my wide to normal Canon L glass compared with Leica R's and Zeiss. Even the 5Dmk3 brought out optical deficiencies with my 16-35 2.8, 17-40, former 23-70 2.8, 35 1.4, etc. The TS-E's and the new 24-70 2.8 are superb in my experience. The L long lenses have been great though. But 50MP with no AA filter is going to be a new challenge for sure. Even my Leica R's on my Nikon D800E shows slight issues that I never noticed on my 5Dmark3 images from the same lenses. I think we would have to expect new optical designs and tolerances for such high MP sensors. With prices to match.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    The best part about releasing a 50MP camera (for Canon) is all the upgraded Mk II lenses they will sell. And think of all the people who will eagerly await the next round of super lenses.

    Releasing a 50MP camera will create a whole bunch of problems, which Canon will be only too happy to profit from solving. I am not being critical here - fair play to them - but we need to recognise the road in front of us if we go down it.

    Some interesting insights being raised regarding aliasing and false colour/detail. I do, however, disagree that DR is all about pushing files to the max just because. I think it comes down to what we shoot and it is perhaps because I come from B&W film, where I am used to being able to do pretty well anything I want in terms of contrast ranges (with a lot of hard work, sadly), that I need digital to be able to give me that if I am to continue shooting in the way visual instinct now drives me. In general use, I would say less that 1% of my images runs into DR issues with 11.7 stops (banding more often). If I am shooting London at night, that rises to about 15-20% (including banding in there with the DR issue), depending on the circumstances of each shoot. I can't stand HDR imagery and so my DR aspirations are totally unrelated to achieving that (IMHO appalling) end result.

    The aspiration for more DR is nothing more than a reflection of what people used to do with B&W negative film. Nobody noticed or cared to comment then, because it was taken for granted as integral to the process, if you really wanted to pull it out. Few people did, but for them it was important, just as it is now. One only has to remember St Ansel talking about using water bath development of some of his famous negs.

    If Canon gets the banding issue fixed in this body it will at least be progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterSteve View Post
    I've been very unimpressed with most of my wide to normal Canon L glass compared with Leica R's and Zeiss. Even the 5Dmk3 brought out optical deficiencies with my 16-35 2.8, 17-40, former 23-70 2.8, 35 1.4, etc. The TS-E's and the new 24-70 2.8 are superb in my experience. The L long lenses have been great though. But 50MP with no AA filter is going to be a new challenge for sure. Even my Leica R's on my Nikon D800E shows slight issues that I never noticed on my 5Dmark3 images from the same lenses. I think we would have to expect new optical designs and tolerances for such high MP sensors. With prices to match.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I guess it would be possible to make a 50% cancelling, but I don't think that's how they've done it, you wouldn't get that cutting feeling when peeping if they leave some AA-effect in.

    It's important to note that a camera AA filter is quite weak too, it *is* possible to get moire with AA filtered cameras too, it's just a whole lot harder. So the manufacturer chooses some threshold where you get away with almost all moire and aliasing in almost all situations, but not not more than that so you keep almost all real resolution.

    Then we get the interesting question - if the AA filter does not solve the problem 100%, how much worse is it then to be without AA filter? I cannot answer that question really so I'd like to test. How sharp lenses are and how effective the microlenses on the sensor are will have an effect. If there was such a thing as an aliasing-problem-scale I'd think that being with AA filter would be 95% problem free, and without would be 30%, ie there is quite a large difference, but say it would be 70 vs 60 percent than one maybe think the R would be worth it...

    I do know that the microlens-less MFD sensors like 39 megapixels P45+ and indeed my H4D-50 combined with razor-sharp tech lenses will have more aliasing issues than the 5DsR, but without testing I don't know how large the difference is. Would I buy "in the blind" I'd surely go for the 5Ds though, for the principles behind it. 1-2% extra resolution is not worth the possible extra issues.

    The other point is interesting, if those aliasing artifacts in fact is an important component of the elusive "MFD look". I don't know. I haven't really seen the "MFD look" and not really seen anything special about it. The older CCDs have both this pixel peep microcontrast thing but also quite high noise level so you get a certain "grain" or texture, while a clean CMOS with AA filter might look more "artificial" despite it's more exact in its capture. Possibly this is a "MFD look" thing, but again it's pixel peeping. Now when MFD has the superclean CMOS that aspect is going away.

    I'm pretty allergic to pixelated prints, but that too is a matter of taste. I haven't yet had much experience of really large prints, but heard others experiment with adding some light high resolution noise on top of the upscaled image to get a pleasing texture up close on the finished print, and that's probably something I would look into too, but to make the upscale work well to start with the original picture must be suitably soft on the pixel level otherwise pixelation is very hard to get rid of. I don't like the look of fractal upscalers, creating more resolution than was captured is simply not a good idea. I've looked at a lot of upscaling algorithms and the basic "bicubic smoother" always gives the best looking result.

    As noone really knows what the MFD look is it is tempting to mimic them as much as possible, and sure the 5DsR is more like them. But pixelpeeping an image to find the MFD look I think is cheating

    The reason why MFD lacks AA filters is not fully clear to me, but if I may guess the reason is that the CCDs used, which are used for many other applications, did not come with AA filters in the standard product range so they would have to be developed specifically for photography probably at a steep cost, and then it was better to make it a feature. More resolution is easy to understand and see, while the advantages of a slightly softer image takes a bit longer time to explain... I think it became more obvious to me now when I've started with printmaking, you're always resampling the image to match the print size, that pixel peep sharpness becomes less useful and that aliasing becomes more of a pain.
    Perhaps it would be of value to consult with a master print maker to get a handle on techniques they use to produce such lovely looking large prints? I vaguely recall reading some fairly complex articles on the subject from those dedicated to making large prints.

    As a point of related interest, some older MFD CCD backs had a user removable AA filter.

    - Marc
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    They bring a new wide angle zoom and I assume they designed it so its up to the task.
    We allready know the current 24-70/28II is a very good lens (better than Nikon counterpart) so maybe it is up to the task.
    Than there are the Sigma 35 and 50 Art.
    And Canons Tele lenses are very good as well.
    So IMO chances are not that bad that there are quite some lenses which might perform fine on a 50MP FF sensor.
    Do we need /want 50MP is another story. There are probably more people who want it than people who need it.
    I am interested how color will look like.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Perhaps it would be of value to consult with a master print maker to get a handle on techniques they use to produce such lovely looking large prints? I vaguely recall reading some fairly complex articles on the subject from those dedicated to making large prints.

    As a point of related interest, some older MFD CCD backs had a user removable AA filter.
    On common trick is to use large format film

    I've asked around but beyond bicubic smoother and fractal/vector upscalers I have not found that much, but there are indeed some home-cooked recipes to try out. Truth is that it's a quite narrow use case, few print at those very large sizes and nose the prints afterwards. I may look into cooking up some own methods. I think that if you make a crossover between bicubic and vector and mask with some light high frequency noise you could do something better. It will reduce the jaggies issue but it won't solve false colors, for that you need to do even more guess-tricks in the demosaicing in the raw conversion.

    Anyway I know my view (well, I'm not exactly alone on this) on the merits of antialias is controversial and not so popular in the MFD camp (where all current sensor are without AA). For a long time being without AA was one of the claimed reasons why MFD had better image quality, and I say that it's the opposite, to get better image quality you should have an AA filter. Not popular.

    Noone in high-end audio would think about removing the AA filter to get high frequency noise and claim it would be better quality. The eye is obviously easier to fool than the ear.

    If someone is able to demonstrate that you can get better image quality on a file viewed on a distance by not having AA I will gladly change my view, but so far I haven't seen any such thing (ie it's only about that pixel peep satisfaction), and see no reason why one would want to add artifacts for a 1-2% resolution increase. Then I think it's better to produce highest quality files possible now and wait with the resolution increase until an even higher resolution sensor is released, and they usually don't add only 2% extra, I would guess the next step is 70-80 megapixels.

    50 megapixel is indeed a lot of pixels, 8688x5792, which means that a 100 ppi print will be 57". I think it's only below 100 ppi one needs to start to worry about pixelation aliasing, so in light of that it's not a big issue for most. On the other hand with that huge amount of resolution, why not secure the quality by adding the AA. Moire can happen in landscape, moving water is a classic. I've seen prints in books by well-known landscape photographers with water moire...
    Last edited by torger; 8th February 2015 at 04:17.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Do you think that the R version is going to present real world issues with Architecture (exteriors) and interior photography where fabrics are the norm?
    Thanks,
    J. Paul
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by jpaulmoore View Post
    Do you think that the R version is going to present real world issues with Architecture (exteriors) and interior photography where fabrics are the norm?
    Thanks,
    J. Paul
    +1

    I would like to know the exact same thing however its only a guess until the cameras are in the hands of users. I was going to pre order a 5DsR but in light of torgers excellent comments I'm now going to wait until the cameras are released and evaluate then. If the Sony is introduced during the wait then all the more choice.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    I would just love to rent a 5DS and a 5DS R and really make a thorough A/B testing. Before that I don't really know how it will behave exactly. As said earlier I'm convinced the 5DS R will alias less than my H4D-50 because 1) even if Canon lenses are great and sharp, they are not as sharp as my tech lenses, 2) the 5DS R has modern microlenses, my H4D-50 has no microlenses at all which means less of the pixel sampled and more aliasing.

    But if it's so little that it's negligible I don't know, and if it's negligible for person A doesn't mean it's negligible for person B, so a thorough test with examples so one can make an own decision from what is seen would be great. Although I think resolution-wise it's next to meaningless with the AA-filter less version and I think that is quite easy to demonstrate, there might be other advantages, such as a sharper live view which makes live view focusing easier, and it will be easier to really get that forensic analysis of lens sharpness, and I can't deny pixel peeping is more fun when it's sharper.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Last 3 years spend to much on High MP war, and just 20% of my clients saw or care about the difference against my 5DM3. Some H3D 39MP beautiful files got wasted in poor large prints made in a run for 2 or 3 days of booth fairs...

    I make my run in DMF - mamiya zd - H3D 22MP - H3DII 39MP but i feel that in the last 5-6 years just pentax was bold to bring something new to this medium, and with the "right" prices and best body technology.

    Now the problem its not about resolution its about motion ! i saw in the last 2 years a swift in my clients to the motion-movies.
    My industrial clients now don't have large prints on there fair booths they have LCDs with movies !!!

    I go to the shopping mall today and the fashion shops don't have beautiful large prints ! they have large vertical LCDs with fashion videos!!!

    My next buy sad to say, will be a Canon C100, and today i spend more time on cinematographer discussion forums and less on medium format or pursuit of a High MP camera.

    There will hallways be room for big resolution photography, but in the corporate business-some fashion i see a swift for more video/motion

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Was interesting to read the below posted on Northlight Images Canon rumour site.

    .......testing a pre-release 5Dsr with a test version of DPP4. Low ISO DR is put at 1.5-2 stops better than the 1D X, but high ISO performance (6400) falls marginally behind the 7Dmk2.
    The sensor is similar to the 7D2 technology, but has apparently been tuned to maximise low ISO performance.


    I know this is only a rumour but there still is hope Canon may have pulled at least 13 stops of DR out of the 50Mpix sensor which I'd happily live with.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I don't believe that there is any global advantage of not having an AA filter, that is if you zoom out or look at a distance so you don't see the pixel peep level then you won't see a difference. This is one of those religion type of things though. Before the D800 when there was a bigger gap between MFD and 135 the "no AA filter = feature" view grew strong, but I think it has more to do with that it was a differentiator than it actually provides a real advantage (except for pixel crisp).
    Your arguments are refreshing and interesting BUT - don't you think that it's easy to extrapolate and just decide the 20mp is enough?

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Be it this is the pot of gold or not it pushes the industry for better. That's the real take away. I'll sit it out until it hits the streets and see if it makes sense but going back to a DSLR is not something I want to do. BTW I'm not buying it has not improved in the DR area. Lot of info going on without any REAL hands on testing with a production model. I'm also waiting to see what Sony does.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Your arguments are refreshing and interesting BUT - don't you think that it's easy to extrapolate and just decide the 20mp is enough?
    From 20 to 50 there's more than a doubling of pixels. From 50 with AA to 50 without AA there's corresponds to an increase of say 50 to 55 or so.

    Trading that small resolution increase for risks of false color and moire artifacts is considerably harder to motivate.

    But sure, also 20 megapixels reaches very far. I'm sure there are many users that would have preferred that they had stayed at 20 megapixels and instead achieved a record breaking dynamic range.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR



    I'm seduced by Torger's way of seeing things, until I see this kind of things (hope it survives the copy, paste, send to forum operations):



    I enjoy sensor crispness better than softer results needing a software sharpness push. Even if this is not the better way to go, it's just more exiting ...
    Last edited by anGy; 10th February 2015 at 02:26.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Yes, I can't deny the pixel peep satisfaction

    However both of those images are quite soft (with that kind of softness aliasing is unlikely), and you would in a real situation apply more sharpening on the AA-filtered version.

    Technique in both shooting and raw conversion will be important to make the cameras perform as good as they can. Standard jpegs and indeed standard raw conversion is generally not tuned to make it as pixel peep sharp as possible.

    The jpeg compression artifacts around the text suggests a quite heavily compressed jpeg which too will affect sharpness negatively.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Once upon a time, there was a sound recording medium called the LP. But the LP had a problem - hiss. It had a lot of high frequency noise. So the engineers came up with a partial solution. They would BOOST the high frequencies on recording, and REDUCE them on playback. That way, the hiss would be reduced and you would hear more of the good high frequency sounds.

    In particular, this meant that the RAW (see what I did there?) recorded sound was deliberately NOT what anyone would want to hear, nor should they EVER listen to it unless for some particular diagnostic purpose. No one would ever, say compare the RIAA encoded signal to the unencoded signal of a different method and say that one was better than the other. It would be crazy.

    Best,

    Matt (Who usually prefers non-AA sensors, but that's because it's the system that counts and other factors often outweigh this one. I have had some hellish aliasing on the M9, but I do this for fun. And I fall for that pixel-sharp look every time. Sigh.)

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    Those pictures are a very compelling argument for the R version as the S just looks like a standard Canon file - a little soft and mushy just like my 1Ds3 (but do sharpen well).

    However, if every bitingly sharp R image is accompanied by these funny coloured highlights (false colour as explained by Torger) as illustrated in the Hippo Canon test shot then who knows which is the best solution. This probably boils down to subject matter etc. I personally think its shaping up to be a great camera especially if the base ISO 1.5 - 2 stop increased DR rumours are true.

    I can't wait for release so I can test for myself.


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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    I would guess that the Hippo processed in Capture One would render better highlights, the problem with pixel neighbors to clipped specular highlights is quite easy to solve. Phase One has long experience with AA-filter-free cameras and makes substantially less artifacts than for example Lightroom, and since Canon is doing their first(?) AA-filter-free camera I would not be surprised if their demosaicer in-camera is worse at hiding aliasing artifacts than Capture One.

    So we can get to very different results depending on subjects, lenses, software, sharpening workflow and personal taste.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Worth noting is that the 5Ds R vs 5Ds image with the flowers and blue apple has the following data:
    Canon EOS 5Ds R w/ EF 24-70mm F2.8L II USM lens, ISO 400, f/11, 1/15 sec

    It's an f/11 shot which means that there will be quite some diffraction onset. The crop is also far out to the left in the frame, and it's a zoom lens so it's not surprising that it's a little soft, could be hand-held too. At f/11 most aliasing will be gone due to diffraction, even with a perfectly sharp lens.

    f/11 on the 24x36mm sensor corresponds to about f/16 on a 49x37mm sensor.

    The cityscape from the air is also a f/11 shot (won't see much aliasing), while the hippo is a f/4 shot and there it will become more apparent. I think you will need to shoot at f/8 or larger aperture to see aliasing.

    Here are some more sample shots using the 5Ds R, but unfortunately they have been scaled down:
    http://www.ephotozine.com/article/ca...e-photos-26928
    They look promising though in terms of that real-world results in terms of aliasing will be considerably better than we're used to from medium format, because if it had been really bad we would have seen it also in the scaled down samples.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Here are some more sample shots using the 5Ds R, but unfortunately they have been scaled down:
    Canon EOS 5DS 5DS R Hands-On Sample Photos
    They look promising though in terms of that real-world results in terms of aliasing will be considerably better than we're used to from medium format, because if it had been really bad we would have seen it also in the scaled down samples.
    They look excellent and the construction images on the 5DsR have no signs of moire so a good indication for us Architectural shooters.

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