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Thread: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

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    Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    This forum is a lonely place so I thought I's post some (potentially) good news.

    A 50.6Mpix sensor in a 5D body and the options of with (5Ds) or without (5DsR) low pass filter. No mention of if the camera uses a Canon or Sony chip but as long as its not the usual 11 stop Canon DR its the camera I've been waiting to buy.

    Fingers crossed for the official announcement (next Friday?) and its the camera all Canon users have been wishing sooooooooo long for?
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    One of the rumors was that the sensor development is in fact a collaboration between Canon and Sony.
    Canon gets the Sony dynamic range, and adds the pixel level AF sensor.
    Let's see if that is true. I am also a bit scared of the price, and I hope it will not be much more than the Nikon D800e at launch (about 3200 Euros).

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    This is Canon, it will be more expensive IMO unless they stop selling the 5D mkIII or drastically reduce its price. The S version of the 1D bodies was always more so can't see this bucking the trend as I think Canon know how desperate Canon users are for a high Mpix camera meaning it will sell in droves to people like me, what ever they charge.

    Now the rumour of the long(er than the 90mm) macro TS-E to be also announced and released at the same time as the new camera and I'll be a very happy Canon user again.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    highest ios 6400 that will suit me as I only ever go above iso 200..if it is a sony sensor it shows how lazy canon are ..if it has a good dynamic range and a nice 3.2 inch screen I will get one ..with the iso only being 6400 maybe canons own sensor be interesting to see

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Yeah, pricing on this one may be quite high. This may actually push me to nikon as the price for the d810 may drop somewhat... who knows. I'm curious to see how the AF is and if there will be any cross type AF points. If not, it could be limiting to me.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Canon's S (studio) camera's have never been high ISO monsters, high fps machine guns or had lighting reaction AF systems so why anyone can expects all this in the new camera really confuses me. It would be nice but I'm being realistic.

    Lots of pixels meaning lots of fine detail coupled with smooth colour transitions and cavernous amounts of DR is what I expect (hope?). Everything else is available else where in more suitable (but lower resolution) cameras.

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Hopefully this marks signs of a more significant 1Ds III body successor...

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    CanonWatch - The Source for Canon Rumors and News


    Update2:
    The source also stated that the sensor is made by Canon using a new CMOS manufacturing process.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by ceh View Post
    Update2:
    The source also stated that the sensor is made by Canon using a new CMOS manufacturing process.
    The more accurate colour bit really interests me about this sensor. No mentions of increase in the usual Canon DR yet though. 15 stops please Canon.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    I, like many of us, have been waiting a long time for this! It still is incomprehensible to me that Canon has been so slow to replace the 1Ds Mark lll (which I own) with a worthy upgrade. I have been using a Sony A7r with Metabones lll adapter, but it's a clunky solution. This new Canon needs to be something really special (more than just megapixels) to make me want to buy it. They need to let the world now that they are a player again in this market, if they want it. The competition from much smaller companies has either surpassed them or is nipping at their heels.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    At last there is something to talk about Canon. Even if it's only rumors.
    Who'd knew!

    Eduardo


    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    This forum is a lonely place so I thought I's post some (potentially) good news.

    A 50.6Mpix sensor in a 5D body and the options of with (5Ds) or without (5DsR) low pass filter. No mention of if the camera uses a Canon or Sony chip but as long as its not the usual 11 stop Canon DR its the camera I've been waiting to buy.

    Fingers crossed for the official announcement (next Friday?) and its the camera all Canon users have been wishing sooooooooo long for?
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    given the recent price cuts to 1dx and 1dc, the new models are imminent!

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Even as a Nikon user, I see forward to this release. Competition is needed, and the D800/810 models have been rather alone in their market niche for too long. The 5D III is a nice camera, but it's showing its age, and the difference in resolution is certainly noticeable.

    I really hope that the new camera comes with a Canon sensor. Sony has a too dominant position in the sensor market, and without Canon, there aren't many others left, although some Nikon models apparently have sensors from different suppliers, like Toshiba.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    yes sounds like it is a canon sensor ..will be interesting what sony have also ..canon need to get the dynamic range on this if not I cant see the point..also no mention of the screen lcd..it has to be 3.2 inch with a 3.2 ration ..tilt would be nice but I can do with out it..final thing is for canon to get any respect from me they have to be fair with the price ..my guess none aa filter version £3500 uk

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    At last there is something to talk about Canon. Even if it's only rumors.
    Who'd knew!

    Eduardo
    I always assumed cameras were taking pictures not talking about on forums.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    From the standpoint of taking pictures:

    It seems to be aimed at landscape and studio photographers. I personally welcome it because for FF BW landscapes, Leica MM is currently the best (may I say 'only'?) way to go. But 50MP w/o AA filter would yield BW conversions with IQ equal to MM files. Also there'd be LV for pre-visualizing (which is so difficult with RF and external finders). The LR/ACR/PS BW conversion sliders would be available again for shaping an image's tonally. And at this point, continuing to upgrade the Leica system (after 40 years of using 'em) seems to have become a fool's errand from the standpoint of expense.

    I'll be considering this Canon, alongside whatever Sony offers next, as successor to my MM as a picture-taking machine.

    Kirk
    Last edited by thompsonkirk; 31st January 2015 at 14:56.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Another thought ran through my mind about the photo of this camera floating around. It just looks like they crammed all the supposed new components in to a 5D Mark lll body. Surely, after all of this time they would make some improvements. This camera has been so long in coming that it should even come with an espresso machine

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Someone over at dpr has listed the most common complaints about this yet to be released camera

    1 Too many pixels
    2 Too much noise at high ISO (related to (1))
    3 Too soft (no good enough lenses for it)
    4 Low DR (without even knowing anything about it)
    5 Too expensive
    6 It's a "brick"
    7 It's a "dinosaur" - no EVF
    8 Highest ISO too low
    9 5 fps only
    10 Not as balanced as the 5D3

    I think he forgot "Not enough pixels" and "Lowest ISO to high"
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    I am also very excited about this announcement. I'm ready and willing to sell all my Nikon gear and return to just one system again. BUT- until I test it and see if it's really as good as the D800E, I will be skeptical. Canon's track record for their sensors is not that good. I really hope this one is as least as good as Nikon or Sony's. I've been waiting for a few years for Canon to catch up, so my excitement is hard to contain..... now we wait and see....
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    In retrospect (from a photographer's point of view), I think it was a mistake to merge the 1D and 1Ds lines. It probably made business sense because of the comparatively limited number of sales at the top. But at the same time it feels like Canon really forgot about professional (still) photographers.

    1Dx never floated my boat. It struck me as a stop-gap measure body. Some improvements but nothing that knocked my socks off for my uses. At this point I just need a solid replacement in light of my aging 1Ds III. Don't need 50+/- megapixels. Just a couple more really usable stops of performance would make me happy---and in a 1D series body.

    ken

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Looking forward to this as well. Was thinking about the pentax 645z, but will hold off for now.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Canon has great lenses now for a high res camera, but my question is about DR as well. I'd rather 36MP, great DR and a well rounded camera, than 12 stops and severe banding upon heavy manipulation.

    I will be pleasantly surprised if this is a Canon sensor AND has the DR and banding issue licked. My instincts tell me no, but then again Canon may claim the sensor in the same way as many singers claim to have written the songs they sing.

    We will know very soon! As for price, it won't be cheap, but the 5D IV is coming later this year it seems and will retain far greater speed and high ISO. they can keep the 5DS priced sensibly and hope to sell you both.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Hopefully this marks signs of a more significant 1Ds III body successor...
    +1

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Hopefully this marks signs of a more significant 1Ds III body successor...
    +2

    And some talented Canon engineer have cracked being able to incorporate a global shutter into it as well then I'll hapliy take both 5Ds now and 1Ds later in the year.....

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Someone over at dpr has listed the most common complaints about this yet to be released camera

    1 Too many pixels
    2 Too much noise at high ISO (related to (1))
    3 Too soft (no good enough lenses for it)
    4 Low DR (without even knowing anything about it)
    5 Too expensive
    6 It's a "brick"
    7 It's a "dinosaur" - no EVF
    8 Highest ISO too low
    9 5 fps only
    10 Not as balanced as the 5D3

    I think he forgot "Not enough pixels" and "Lowest ISO to high"
    There is also the "Not big enough" complaint
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    I'm happy to see Canon getting back on track with offering a higher performing sensor.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Photorumors quote


    " Canon EOS 5Ds: €3,499 (around $4,000)
    Canon EOS 5Ds R (no low-pass filter): €3,699 (around $4,200)
    Canon EF 11-24mm f/4L USM: €2,999 (around $3,400)

    Expect the US prices to be lower.

    Read more on PhotoRumors.com: http://photorumors.com/#ixzz3QnRDkw3h"


    Also everything I have read says Sony sensor which will also manufacture the Nikon 50mp on a different line this year
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    In retrospect (from a photographer's point of view), I think it was a mistake to merge the 1D and 1Ds lines. It probably made business sense because of the comparatively limited number of sales at the top. But at the same time it feels like Canon really forgot about professional (still) photographers.

    1Dx never floated my boat. It struck me as a stop-gap measure body. Some improvements but nothing that knocked my socks off for my uses. At this point I just need a solid replacement in light of my aging 1Ds III. Don't need 50+/- megapixels. Just a couple more really usable stops of performance would make me happy---and in a 1D series body.

    ken
    I too always had the 1D series bodies until the 5D3 came along. I used the 1DX on a few jobs and liked it but it certainly didn't offer anything for me that the 5D3 didn't already do for a lot less money. I hear the same thing from many other pros too. Now with the newer 5D models coming out, it may be a while before they bother with a 1D upgrade. I don't think I'd every buy one again.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    Photorumors quote

    Also everything I have read says Sony sensor which will also manufacture the Nikon 50mp on a different line this year
    I would love it, but I doubt it. Unlike Nikon, isn't Canon in the sensor business?

    Let's hope....

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterSteve View Post
    I would love it, but I doubt it. Unlike Nikon, isn't Canon in the sensor business?

    Let's hope....
    We'll find out Friday

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Seems like the AA filter is not removed as with the Nikon D810 but has an additional low pass cancellation filter similar to the original Nikon D800E according to the leaked official (supposedly) press release.

    EOS 5DS R: Engineered for the ultimate in DSLR image quality
    When nothing but the absolute maximum level of detail possible will do, the EOS 5DS R features a low pass cancellation filter to ensure the sharpest possible results. Great for landscape photographers, where patterns are very often organic, the camera’s low pass cancellation filter produces the stunning level of detail required to turn agreat shot into an incredible shot.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    Looks like a great landscape set-up. That wide zoom announcement is brilliant to be paired with the new cameras!

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Remains to be seen if "wide dynamic range" is the same as "high dynamic range"

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    ... and regardless of DR, what this means for pattern noise/banding under rigorous processing. Canon will be rumbled very quickly if they are delivering a weak solution to the issues many Canon users have been raising....

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Remains to be seen if "wide dynamic range" is the same as "high dynamic range"

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    ... and regardless of DR, what this means for pattern noise/banding under rigorous processing. Canon will be rumbled very quickly if they are delivering a weak solution to the issues many Canon users have been raising....
    Trying not to sound like a Canon fanboy but pattern noise/banding is just a sign you've pushed the file way too much isn't it? My Canon's are 1Ds3 and 5D2 and always think the image looks all funky (flat) and just wrong when pulling the shadows long before I see any issues with noise. The same went for my Phase One back so not just a Canon trait. It's bery possible due to my cameras being older generation chips (?) but I've never seen banding in any of my images so am I doing something wrong?

    Isn't the whole banding, pattern noise, light flare (or what ever the forum room hot topics are) are just discovered by poeple who love shooting pictures of brick walls, unrealistically testing their cameras hoping to find issues for kicks?
    Last edited by gazwas; 5th February 2015 at 15:03.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    An odd, and disappointing, product. I was hoping for Canon to raise the bar (like they used to do) and push the other guys to do even greater things. It's like they haven't been paying attention at all.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Like someone at DPR said, this is beyond tragic.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEvangelist View Post
    An odd, and disappointing, product. I was hoping for Canon to raise the bar (like they used to do) and push the other guys to do even greater things. It's like they haven't been paying attention at all.
    You can do everything (outdoors wise) with this one body - stunning landscapes/portraits at 50 megapixels and even wildlife or sporting shots in the crop mode that provide 20 or 30 megapixel RAW files. Sure the ISO could be expanded further but it the ISO 3200 or 6400 is relatively clean I don't think there's much to complain about.

    Maybe I need to pay closer attention but it seems like a decent addition for the Canon shooters. I thought the built in crop modes would make this work well for everyone from landscape/portrait to wildlife shooters.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEvangelist View Post
    An odd, and disappointing, product. I was hoping for Canon to raise the bar (like they used to do) and push the other guys to do even greater things. It's like they haven't been paying attention at all.
    Really,

    Doubling the MP's is not raising the bar. Phase One and HB are shaking in their boots!

    I guess you need 100MP and DR of 20EV to make a statement

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    DP Review:

    "Canon tells us that at a pixel level, noise levels should be very similar to the EOS 7D Mark II and slightly better than what we'd expect from a 5D Mark II (note: not a 5D Mark III)."

    and

    "As far as dynamic range is concerned, we're told that the new 5DS and 5DS R should give the same performance as the current EOS 5D Mark III."

    Seems like it's pretty much an upscaled 7DII sensor, right? Personally, I call that disappointing.

    We use 5D III's at work, and I generally like them but hate the pattern noise, which I can see at base ISO without any big edits. Regardless, like Nikon – which I own and use – I wonder what AF lenses are seriously up to the task of 50MPX, particularly at the wide end.

    This seems like an advancement of sorts, but certainly not revolutionary like the D800 was. For Canon shooters who need more resolution and are happy with the IQ of their MKII or III, then I guess this is the ticket. For people buying into full frame from scratch and wanting "the best", I guess it's a harder sell. In my opinion, one would be better to choose what they feel more comfortable holding and using than buying on spec anyway. In my case, I'd prefer the D810, but others are different and difference makes the world go around!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    Really,

    Doubling the MP's is not raising the bar. Phase One and HB are shaking in their boots!

    I guess you need 100MP and DR of 20EV to make a statement
    Lets wait until the real world samples come out, eh?
    I'm no fanboy. but I'll put money on this Canon being no competition against the H-50c / IQ250/150 / Credo 50 / 645Z.

    Anyway,

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Gareth,Wex photographic are advertising the 5DS R at 3200

    Canon EOS 5DS R Digital SLR Camera Body (0582C004AA) - Wex Photographic

    Rob
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Yes the DR thing was a bit disappointing, although not that surprising, we've seen this over and over again for a few years now. For studio work with controlled light I don't think it will be an issue though, but as said above it isn't a "now I'm switching back to Canon!" type of camera.

    With no ability to compete on the DR I'm a bit surprised that they waited this long with releasing a high MP camera.

    I don't think we will see any noise pattern issue, just checked out the 7DII and it has no such issues, which means that the DR that is there can be used to its full potential. Just need that raw file...
    Last edited by torger; 6th February 2015 at 01:11.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Seems like the makings of a great camera but considering all but the resolution has stood still (actually slightly less tested DR than my 1Ds3) and Canon has decided to reduce its video capability while all other manufacturers are boosting their cameras (Olympus OM-D E-M5 II) its not a camera I'll be rushing to pre-order. With an overly long predicted June delivery date estimate, this gives Sony 5 months to come out with their version so I'll sit this one out and see what develops. The £3200 price point was a pleasant surprise though as I thought it would be more.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Wow those sample images do look very impressive, especially the 5DsR ones. I do however see some weird colours in the specular highlights along the body of the Hippo in the water. Is that just a lens thing?

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Wow those sample images do look very impressive, especially the 5DsR ones. I do however see some weird colours in the specular highlights along the body of the Hippo in the water. Is that just a lens thing?
    No, that's aliasing. False colors, a result from the demosaicing. AA filter has always been a good idea to have, but somehow it has in the photography world been distorted to be a "feature" rather than the bug it is.

    Moire will be rare, but false colors "christmas tree colors" is there as soon as you have a sharp lens and sharp detailed transitions between dark and bright.

    I see this all the time with my medium format camera, I can live with it though especially since I shoot f/16 often (where diffraction evens it out a bit), but if there would be a choice like it is in this case I would go for the AA-filtered version.

    1-2% in extra resolving power is just not worth the false color issues.

    Aliasing is also not going to make lens corrections or image rotations perform better. No problem on my medium format camera as I have distortion free tech lenses lenses and always shoot from a tripod, ie I don't do any image transformations, but with a DSLR with retrofocus lenses and hand-held shooting I would think about taking image transformation performance into account, and then again an AA-filtered input is better.
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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I see this all the time with my medium format camera, I can live with it though especially since I shoot f/16 often (where diffraction evens it out a bit), but if there would be a choice like it is in this case I would go for the AA-filtered version.
    Yes, shooting architecture I never liked to sharpen my Phase files too much as I always thought they suffered quite badly from aliasing.

    As a 50Mpix H4D shooter what do you thing of those files - they look very impressive to me and no issues with moire or aliasing in the 5DsR skyline shot. At first glance and considering they are only early sample files they compare very similar to how my Phase files looked. With prime lenses and better processing this looks to improve further I'd imagine.

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    Re: Canon 5Ds/5DsR

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Yes, shooting architecture I never liked to sharpen my Phase files too much as I always thought they suffered quite badly from aliasing.

    As a 50Mpix H4D shooter what do you thing of those files - they look very impressive to me and no issues with moire or aliasing in the 5DsR skyline shot. At first glance and considering they are only early sample files they compare very similar to how my Phase files looked. With prime lenses and better processing this looks to improve further I'd imagine.
    I think it looks promising, and Canon has quite many sharp lenses so I think it will be fine. I have only looked at them briefly, and in-camera jpegs tend to render a good bit softer than if you have a raw workflow. Canon (and Nikon and I guess any other Japanese camera maker) has never really worked hard to make the sample shots overly impressive, it's more like random test shots.

    When it comes to color aliasing it depends also on the demosaicer a lot, the demosaicers that are best at extracting detail from AA-filtered sensors may make false colors more visible on AA-less sensors, maybe Canon has some work to do there. Personally I would still pick the 5Ds over the R, even more so now when I've started to work with prints, where micro contrast is of less importance and aliasing is more worrying.

    I have the TS-E 24 II, but for Canon to be a real alternative to my tech system they need to upgrade the 45 and 90 too. At some point I'd like to do a side-by-side test with the TS-E 24 II + Canon 5DS and my H4D-50 + SK35. I think results will be similar, with a little sharpness edge to the H4D-50, and less distortion of course. DR will probably be about the same.

    It shall be interesting to see if there is any truth in the rumours that they have focused the CFAs on better color separation. I don't have the best eyes to see such a thing, but others have. If color is great and they have the noise just as well-behaved as on the 7DII (which is better than the 5Dmk3!), then I think it will be a great camera.

    High MP DLSRs is not super-cheap from a lens perspective though, so just-below-top-notch MFD (like I have) or the Pentax 645z are quite real alternatives. The flexibility of a DSLR system and lens lineup is undeniable though of course.
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