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Thread: canon TS-E 17

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    canon TS-E 17

    Here are two shots of Stanford Memorial Church with new 17 TS-E on 1ds3.
    The first one is shifted some to limit the courtyard foreground and the 2nd is max shifted up. The next day I went back there to shoot some comparison shots with my 14-24G Nikon lens. So far the 17 seems to match the center sharpness of my 14-24G at 17mm but is softer in the extreme borders and corners compared to my 14-24G at f8 when unshifted and at f8 or f9. I want to do more testing just to confirm this. I will post example shots to show this.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Wayne, thanks for these. The 17 mm looks good, although hard to judge without crops. That it is bettered by the 14-24 Nikon zoom isn't surprising; that lens is a masterstroke and at 17 mm it is in the best FL range.
    As for the 17 mm TS, I wonder if there could be some curvature of field involved, not inconceivable given the large FOV of this lens.
    Anyways, looking forward to your further results, highly relevant in my case.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Thanks Arne for looking at these test shots.
    Here are some 100% crop shots of the image on the left above.
    I think the top and bottom center crops look great.
    But you can see the slight loss in resolution in the far left of
    the lower left side crop. Not bad though. This was with the lens shifted up some.
    I now realize that I need to go back and shoot some maximum shift shots in the longer side direction since that will be worse than shifting in the shorter side direction.
    I will also post next my 14-24G and 17 TS-E comparsion shots with crops.
    I moved closer to the church to make sure the corners were contained within the front wall of the church and so you can see the corner performance including the distortion near the edge of the frame. The sides of the church seemed to distort outward some when doing the maximum shift up.

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    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Thank you Wayne, interesting. I agree with your assessment. Assuming these are taken at f8, we are probably looking at peek performance overall.
    However if you reshoot the scene, it might be worth trying some focus bracketing just to see how the edges behave.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Arne,
    The above shots were taken at f9, not f8.
    The next shots are the TS-E 17 unshifted at f9 vs. the 16-35 mkI at f9
    with same shutter speed for both ,was in manual mode.
    First one of each comparison is the TS-E 17.
    These were still far enough back that I didn't see a lot of distortion at he edges. Crops are 100%.
    Last edited by wayne_s; 31st July 2009 at 01:31. Reason: mistake

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Ok, here are the comparison shots between the TS-E 17 and the 14-24G Nikon.
    The first one is the TS-E 17 unshifted at f9, the 2nd is the 14-24 is at ~17mm and ~f8.
    Crops are 100%.
    I take back my earlier remarks that the TS-E 17's center sharpness equals the 14-24G. I must have been confusing the 16-35 shots with the 14-24G.
    The 14-24G is slightly sharper in the center and sharper in the corners/borders.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    I think I will redo my test shots from another day when I was varying the aperture and also the amount of shift. The camera was not properly leveled and the angle was not perfectly straight on so this may have caused some of the distortion.
    Going to sleep now.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Thanks for the report Wayne. I would say the 17 shift's performance is still quite good, given what it is.
    Jack
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    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Thank you Wayne. So far I see little to discourage me from acquiring this lens, if I can convince myself that I need it
    Any further results would of course be much appreciated.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Here is a shot I took today after work with TS-E 17 of the Agnews Clock Tower in Santa Clara, CA. First shot is a reduced version of the original shot,
    which doesn't do justice to the amount of detail captured in the original by my 1ds3.
    But the next two shots are 100% crops of the top-center clock face on the tower and the next crop is the far bottom right corner.
    Just and awesome lens. It is a real treat to have ultra wide angle with shift capability and not lose much in the IQ dept compared to a regular prime.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Wayne ... After correcting for a bit of difference in the exposures, I think the 17mm TSE is pretty close to the 14-24 in terms of sharpness in the corners. The Nikon may be a bit better but darn close. I had the Nikon for a bit I did not like what i had to do to use it was too complicated.

  12. #12
    Shelby Lewis
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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    The question is... once you correct perspective of the 14-24 in post, does the loss of detail due to interpolation even the playing field? I'd suspect that if the intent of a shoot was to produce a persp. corrected shot, the 17mm might actually be a tad better in the end... but I don't speak from experience here.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Marc,
    Yeah, looking back at my original raw shots at 100% again I agree that the difference between the Canon 17 at f9 is very close to the Nikon 14-24 at 17 f8. The nikon will be sharper in the corners at f5.6 and below. I guess I had some prejudice against a TS lens like the 17 being able to match up with a top of the line wide angle but I think Canon did an excellent job here. The size of the image circle must be so big, so I don't see that much of a dropoff in resolution even when you shift all the way in the long direction.
    When I get time next week, I hope to post some of my testing shots and hope to meet up with Marc to do some comparison shots between 17 + 1.4 and 24 TS-E mk2.

    Shelby, you are right that you lose some in post doing the correction and I hate fiddling with correcting it in PS.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Wayne... I ended up breaking down and buying a 17mm TSE. i am so impressed with the new 24mm TSE. I stopped over at the Stanford Church and took some shots with the 24mm TSE and sigma 10-22 inside and outside the church. I would have liked to have tried the 17mm TSE today .

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    That church ought to put a collection box up front labeled "For Lens Testers"
    -bob

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Quote Originally Posted by mark1958 View Post
    Wayne... I ended up breaking down and buying a 17mm TSE. i am so impressed with the new 24mm TSE. I stopped over at the Stanford Church and took some shots with the 24mm TSE and sigma 10-22 inside and outside the church. I would have liked to have tried the 17mm TSE today .
    Congrats Mark on the new 17 TS-E.
    Wow, both the 17 and 24 mk2.
    Is the 24 much sharper?

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    That church ought to put a collection box up front labeled "For Lens Testers"
    -bob
    And another one labeled "wedding photographers".

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    BOb this cracked me up... That is a great idea.. I think we should provide you with an honorary degree... . On second thought, I think as an employee, if i were to put up such a box -- the headlines might not read too well.


    Wayne. THe lens was shipped but I will likely get it Monday. I am still happy to meet up with you and do some tests together. I can say that i have tried so many of the wide and super wide angles on canon in the past. The contax zeiss 21mm distagon was king for resolution (albeit some did not like the distortion). Each at f2.8 it was amazing. Whatever the formula for the Nikon zoom is -- well that is another masterpiece. It is just so darn difficult and a pain to use on canon. So now i have settled (ya right) on the sigma 12-24. At f8-16 and higher it is pretty darn good at the wider end and it is quite inexpensive. The corners are not stellar but most of the time does not matter. My son has started High School Marching Band (although not something I have promoted) and i am one of the two photographers. The sigma lens has been quite useful. Now we come to the 24mm TSE and i am just really impressed. Canon finally got the wide end right. I can use this as a 24mm prime. I mean it may not be as good as the L 1.4 until stopped down but most of the time i shoot wide angle stopped down. The shift is very useful. I am anxious to try the 17mm TSE inside the church as well. M

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    That church ought to put a collection box up front labeled "For Lens Testers"
    -bob

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Met up with Mark at Stanford and took some comparison shots with his TS-E 24mk2 and my TS-E 17 + 1.4x TC. Here are two crops, the first one is the 17 + 1.4xTC and the 2nd is the 24. Mark also took shots with his H3D with the 28 which I will let him post which is interesting to compare against these shots.
    Thanks again Mark and it was nice meeting you.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    I am not too surprised to see the 24 do better than the 17+1.4TC, but I AM surprised to see how well the 17+1.4TC actually did.
    -bob

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I am not too surprised to see the 24 do better than the 17+1.4TC, but I AM surprised to see how well the 17+1.4TC actually did.
    -bob
    Bob,

    That is exactly what I thought too.
    Since I think I will be shooting more at 17 than at 24, I think I will be ok with just the 17 and can use the 17 + 1.4x TC for those few times when in a pinch for a 24 TS and not have to shell out another $2300 for the new 24.
    Having both would be great but there are other things on the buy list ahead of that.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Wayne thanks for posting. What happened when you shifted?

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Mark,

    I only took fully shifted up shots with 17 TS-E by itself, then 17 + 1.4xTC and then TS-E 24 by itself. The two crops I just showed above were actually near the bottom. Here are the three full original shots. Because the amount of max shift is different, that is why the two 24mm comparison shots are not covering the same exact part of the church.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Here are the top left crops of the 17 + 1.4xTC and the 24:

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Ooops, looks like I have just reached some upload quota and I can't upload any more of these crop comparisons.
    Jack, can you tell me what I should do?


    Anyway, Mark I am glad you asked about the shifted performance as I then thought about looking at the corners more to see how they compared and am now seeing what I had noticed in the MTF's awhile back between the two and it is the fact the 24 is sharper in the center than the 17 but then falls off more towards the corners than the 17 which is more even across the frame. I hope to show this more with the rest of the crops I have ready to upload to this thread.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Wayne and Mark,

    Great report and tests, thanks!

    Sorry I missed meeting you guys that day, but I had a pet emergency and was at the emergency clinic most of the day. It didn't end well either Anyway, please keep me posted for next time.
    Jack
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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Jack sorry to hear about the pet emergency.. was this your dog? i was just at the dog er.. but not too serious

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Wayne and Mark,

    Great report and tests, thanks!

    Sorry I missed meeting you guys that day, but I had a pet emergency and was at the emergency clinic most of the day. It didn't end well either Anyway, please keep me posted for next time.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Quote Originally Posted by mark1958 View Post
    Jack sorry to hear about the pet emergency.. was this your dog? i was just at the dog er.. but not too serious
    Hi Mark:

    Unfortunately, it was our lovable yellow lab. She was only 7 and perfectly healthy three weeks ago, but for some unknown reason her kidneys started failing rapidly. We had to rush her in that Sunday for fluids, then she died a few days later on Thursday...
    Jack
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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Hi Mark:

    Unfortunately, it was our lovable yellow lab. She was only 7 and perfectly healthy three weeks ago, but for some unknown reason her kidneys started failing rapidly. We had to rush her in that Sunday for fluids, then she died a few days later on Thursday...
    Wow, Jack, sorry to hear the bad news. I have a black lab that is 9 and I am always worried about something like this. My sister's goldern retriever just passed away from cancer.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Here are the two top right crops, again first one is 17+1.4xTC, 2nd is TS-E 24mk2:

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Here are the top center crops:

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Thanks Mark again for letting me use your new 24 TSEmk2.
    I was able to get some time the Thursday after labor day to get into the church and take a bunch of shots with the 17 and hope to finish my 3 shift point/multi exposure image in photoshop and photomatrix. The dynamic range was very large as there were only one set of lights on and the rest of the church was lit by the afternoon sun through the stain-glass windows. Just a gorgeous church inside. I already printed out one of the stitched images large on my Z3100 printer and the detail is just incredible for 35mm.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Jack.. sorry to hear about your dog.. that is really hard. i know that our dog is part of the family...

    Wayne can you post some of those church shots?

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Mark,

    Here is a quick rendition of one the interirior shots but it is only combining 3 shots (one shot no shift, one shot max shift up, one shot max shift down) all at 15 second exposure at f11. This image I used shadow highlights to lighten the dark sections and to darken the burnt out sections some. I have bracketed exposures up to 1/15s which I am in the process of blending in so that the far winidows are not blown out and the domed section in the middle with skylight is not blown out either. I just haven't got much time lately to work on finishing this. It looked great printed out max size on my 24inch Z3100.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    So how does the 17 compare to the new 24???
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    So how does the 17 compare to the new 24???
    Well, I thought I said it above while showing the crops but let me summarize what I thought from doing comparison shots of the 17 TS-E + 1.4xTC vs. the new 24 TS-E mk2. The 24 was sharper in the center than the 17 + 1.4 as expected but the 24 was less sharp in the corners when max shifted in the vertical direction while in landscape position. This seems to match the MTF's on Canon website which show the 24 sharper in the middle but then dropping some in the corners while the 17 remains more flat over the frame into the corners.
    What do you guy's think after seeing the comparison crops above?
    Also, any C&C on the above interrior shot is always welcome.
    Mark, maybe you can reverify my findings when you get your 17 back from Canon?

    Thanks,

    Wayne

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Wayne i did get it back yesterday. I need to get some time and can do some comparisons too. I am going to Nova Scotia for a few days next week. I am debating which lenses to take. To be honest it is a work meeting and will have little time to do shooting
    Quote Originally Posted by wayne_s View Post
    Well, I thought I said it above while showing the crops but let me summarize what I thought from doing comparison shots of the 17 TS-E + 1.4xTC vs. the new 24 TS-E mk2. The 24 was sharper in the center than the 17 + 1.4 as expected but the 24 was less sharp in the corners when max shifted in the vertical direction while in landscape position. This seems to match the MTF's on Canon website which show the 24 sharper in the middle but then dropping some in the corners while the 17 remains more flat over the frame into the corners.
    What do you guy's think after seeing the comparison crops above?
    Also, any C&C on the above interrior shot is always welcome.
    Mark, maybe you can reverify my findings when you get your 17 back from Canon?

    Thanks,

    Wayne

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Quote Originally Posted by wayne_s View Post
    Well, I thought I said it above while showing the crops but let me summarize what I thought from doing comparison shots of the 17 TS-E + 1.4xTC vs. the new 24 TS-E mk2.
    Wayne,

    Sorry, I should have clarified that that frankly I did not see much difference in the crops you posted, so was looking for some added personal impressions -- thank you for supplying those .

    Also, I'd love to see a similar shot with the 17 plus 2x converter. that could be a VERY versatile trio for architecture...
    Jack
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    Subscriber Member kit laughlin's Avatar
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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Very good to see these; the 24 TS-E Mk I is why I moved from Canon FF in the first place; the Distagon 21/2.8 wide open thrashed the 24 TS-E stopped down to ƒ8, believe it or not.

    To me, looking at the crops, the 17 + 1.4 seems a touch sharper to me. I had no idea extenders could be used on wides.

    I now shoot FF Nikon and use the 14–24/2.8 exclusively for my architectural work. Yes, I need a bit of PP if I cannot place the camera perfectly, but I would prefer a Nikon T/S that has the flexibility of the new Canons (particularly the capacity to move the tilt axis vs. the shift one). Overall, the new TS_E lenses are not enough to get me to switch back—yet—but are a giant step forward. Thanks for the tests, kl

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Wayne,

    Sorry, I should have clarified that that frankly I did not see much difference in the crops you posted, so was looking for some added personal impressions -- thank you for supplying those .

    Also, I'd love to see a similar shot with the 17 plus 2x converter. that could be a VERY versatile trio for architecture...
    My only impressions from shooting the new 24 was that it is less likely to pick up flare do to its smaller angle of view which also allows it to have a hood which further helps.
    Both lenses have the new ability to easily adjust the axis of tilt and shift independently. Just push against a small pin/lever and rotate the lens. They also have lock knobs on tilt and shift which help the lens from drooping down if the tilt is in the vertical direction or the lens from shifting accidentally if the shift is in the vertical direction, due to gravity.
    I have a 2xTC and I will post some pix when I get some time. I think the 2x will reduce the sharpness/contrast too much but we will see. Could always use the 17 on a crop camera like the new 7D to get a less wide focal length T/S solution.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Kit,

    I use the 14-24G with Mark's adapter on 1ds3 and still enjoy that great lens.
    I posted some crops above comparing the Nikon and the new 17 at 17 at f8-f9 and I was surprised how equal they were to me. I am sure the Nikon is better at wider apertures as the Canon 17 needs about f7.1 to get sharp enough in the corners. Still quite an improvement on their old TS-E 24mk1 like you mention and the 17 is quite an accomplishment for Canon I think.
    Canon doesn't recommend using a TC on the 17 in the 17 lens manual but obviously designed it so it could. When using the 17 + TC, the camera still records the focal length as 17 and the lowest f-stop of 3.5 still shows up in the display instead of adding the extra stop.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Thanks for that extra info, Wayne. Cheers.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Has anyone tried the 24 tse II with the 1.4x ?

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    I need to go to Canon and borrow this lens

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    This one was a dud in colour, so its now BW

    Three images 10deg shift left-center-right stitched using hugin.

    Last edited by Andrew Gough; 2nd October 2009 at 12:23.

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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Cool perspective and framing for sure. Would like to understand better why you think the color sucked?
    Jack
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    Re: canon TS-E 17

    Hi Jack,

    The highlight areas were slightly blown, once I pulled them back down in lightroom the image simply seemed dull, so I left them up and went with a BW conversion.

    Note: I have since created a solution to attach my lee grads to this lens, which should allow me to solve the problem.

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