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Thread: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Nice text!

    A couple of questions raised in my mind from Bob's text alone:
    - Is there any conclusion that can be made for lower frequencies?
    - Even if there's a difference in the perceived high-frequency noise in favor of the CMOS, is the "measured" noise more or less the same on both technologies or are they also different?
    - Are we able to say why(i.e. the causes or reasons) there is a difference between the theory and the practice?

    From what Bob's wrote and taking this extract from Dalsa page (beginning of the last paragraph) into consideration ,...
    "CCDs and CMOS will remain complementary. The choice continues to depend on the application and the vendor more than the technology.",
    Is it fair to say that:
    - the presence and/or the strength of the AA filter is probably more important than the choice of CMOSvsCCD.
    - having a Kodak sensor vs a Delsa sensor is probably going to make more difference regardless if one is a CCD and the other is a CMOS.

    Semantics: According to any of you, when Dalsa refers to "application", does it mean "how it has been applied/implemented" or does it mean "for what(or how or in which context) it is going to be used"?

    Thanks!
    Francois
    Last edited by Mozbee; 24th September 2009 at 11:32. Reason: typo and structure fixes.
    Francois B.

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mozbee View Post
    Nice text!

    A couple of questions raised in my mind from Bob's text alone:
    - Is there any conclusion that can be made for lower frequencies?
    - Even if there's a difference in the perceived high-frequency noise in favor of the CMOS, is the "measured" noise more or less the same on both technologies or are they also different?
    - Are we able to say why(i.e. the causes or reasons) there is a difference between the theory and the practice?

    From what Bob's wrote and taking this extract from Dalsa page (beginning of the last paragraph) into consideration ,...
    "CCDs and CMOS will remain complementary. The choice continues to depend on the application and the vendor more than the technology.",
    Is it fair to say that:
    - the presence and/or the strength of the AA filter is probably more important than the choice of CMOSvsCCD.
    - having a Kodak sensor vs a Delsa sensor is probably going to make more difference regardless if one is a CCD and the other is a CMOS.

    Semantics: According to any of you, when Dalsa refers to "application", does it mean "how it has been applied/implemented" or does it mean "for what(or how or in which context) it is going to be used"?

    Thanks!
    Francois
    Thanks!
    1: - Is there any conclusion that can be made for lower frequencies?
    Yes, lower frequency noise is apparent in many CCD based systems to a greater degree than CMOS bases systems due to greater "system noise" superimposed on "sensor noise". This is one reason that vendors often "clip" the darks to make it less obvious. Almost all modern CMOS sensors present digital data on the pins of the chip. CCD sensors present analog signals. analog signals are also more subject to the shielding of those signals from external electromagnetic radiation. I had a certain camera which would produce very noisy files if my cell phone was just about to ring while the sensor was reading out. Of course much of this system noise can be managed by very careful attention to analog electronic design and "fields and waves" principles. Not very often the strongest suit for most pure-play camera makers.

    2: the presence and/or the strength of the AA filter is probably more important than the choice of CMOSvsCCD
    Well, I wouldn't be too sure about that YMMD. There are applications where smooth transitions are more important than sharpness. Fashion shots for the print media come to mind.
    diversion: I found it interesting to note that talking to professional fashion and glamor re-touchers, that they mostly no longer receive raw or even TIFF files any more. That speaks volumes about the need for clean files in that business.
    Almost all the effects of a well-designed AA filter can be eliminated to the point of invisibility through proper sharpening except for those of us, like myself, who pixel-peep raw files. Unfortunately well-designed AA filters are a fairly recent innovation.

    3: Are we able to say why(i.e. the causes or reasons) there is a difference between the theory and the practice?
    Usually there are design constraints like power consumption, total available development cost, time to market, sloppy design, weight, manufacturing cost, etc which cause engineering compromises. I have yet to see a no-compromises system. The closest seems to be the high-end digital backs and MIL spec systems, but even those need to live within constraints.

    4:Semantics: According to any of you, when Dalsa refers to "application", does it mean "how it has been applied/implemented" or does it mean "for what(or how or in which context) it is going to be used"?
    I think that when they say application they are talking about things like video vs still photography, machine vision systems vs QC inspection systems, surveillance systems, and so forth. There are a lot of applications for these sensors besides taking pretty pictures.

    -bob

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Well we will get the M9 again in a couple weeks for the workshop and Jack and I will have it on the way up to Oregon so he gets a chance to give it a workout for 2 days before giving it up for the attendees to play. If we missed anything let us know or want us to try something also. I guess this thread has slowed down some but I certainly hope I did a decent job with it and you folks learned some good stuff about it. It came at a really busy time for me so it was a little tough on me with 3 big jobs at the same timing. Now If i could keep the money i made for those jobs i could get one but my wife has other plans of course. LOL

    Okay gotta run to the Grand Canyon and shoot a job be back tonight
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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Bob - thanks for the CCD vs CMOS explanation. I learned a LOT reading throught that.

    Interesting that all the effects of a (modern) AA filter can be eliminiated through sharpening. So for those who only care about a finished/printed output, CMOS is just as good as CCD (and better at high ISO).

    But for those of use who enjoy seeing the raw image on screen, then CCD will show more "out of camera" sharpness.

    I used to print a lot of my stuff. But for the past couple of years, I've actually used my 30" cinema display as my primary medium for showing my images (to friends and family). The 30" screen at 2560x1600 can be pretty demanding on an image, especially since I will often zoom-in to show detail at 100% as I go through the images.

    As I browse through folders full of processed images from multiple cameras (M8, 5DII, 1DsIII, E-P1, M9, etc), I do notice a different "look" that these systems produce. The CMOS systems with higher density of pixels tend to produce a more "harsh" final image, while the CCD bodies (M8 and M9) tend to produce a smoother final image.

    Of course this may be more a result of my processing algorithms than of the raw image itself, but the same tends to hold true when I browse the raw images.

    My point in all this is that my style of showing images on screen, and my impressions of the raw image have heavily influenced my taste for CCD over CMOS. While if I was a working pro who lived on the printed image, it would probably not matter at all.

    Mike
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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Mike

    Funny you should mention smoothness...exactly my reaction to the M9 files. I have always associated this characteristic with the leica lenses. as in the bokeh has a smooth fall off from sharp to unsharp.

    Using the M8 and the M9 together ...to be honest on many of the images I have to look to see which is which. This was sunny day images of Tiger Woods at the Tour Championship. But the M9 files are smoother and really hold up to detailed inspection at high magnification.

    Its actually good for a mixed body system to have the same sensor (look) too bad the uv/Ir issue is mutually exclusive.

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    @ Bob

    while I back most of your explanations - and BTW thanks for this great summary - I cannot share what you say about A filters and that their effect can be reverted by sharpening.

    The issue is that the AA filter makes for loss of image information and even if this can be compensated to some degree by sharpening, finally lost information cannot be recovered.

    So for me all solutions which can survive without AA filter are clear favorites, as I demand highest IQ. Of course there are situations where the use of an AA filter makes absolute sense.

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I guess this thread has slowed down some but I certainly hope I did a decent job with it and you folks learned some good stuff about it.
    Okay gotta run to the Grand Canyon and shoot a job be back tonight
    You did great Guy, thanks and good luck with the job!

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    You did great Guy, thanks and good luck with the job!
    More than great ... so many questions and solutions dealt with in a matter of days.

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Like Peter, I have been working under the impression that the AA filter will cause some sharpness to be irretrievably lost. Bob, however, covers his point well by admitting that the loss can only be seen by dedicated pixel peepers and that the recent "well designed" AA filters are necessary for that to be the case.

    I do not have the knowledge or background to feel firm on any of my biased observations. I just seem to see a clarity and color honesty to more images from the M8s and M9s than other dig. cameras.

    But, then I factor into my preference equation the fact that skilled imagemakers and skilled PP can blur what my preferences are based on, and I'm back to square one, admitting that we buy what we like for whatever reasons we choose.

    Decisions, decisions!
    Roger
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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    I'm at CG but I almost refuse to buy CMOS anymore. After about 5 years of CCD except for a few nikons in there. I just can't go back to CMOs. More than any I love the look and color of CCD . Never been happy with color from Nikon or Canon and main reason I sold them.
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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm at CG but I almost refuse to buy CMOS anymore. After about 5 years of CCD except for a few nikons in there. I just can't go back to CMOs. More than any I love the look and color of CCD . Never been happy with color from Nikon or Canon and main reason I sold them.
    Similar true for me!

    Except my Alpha 900 which I like because of the Zeiss glass, but again, the images look kind of "waxy" compared to CCD and NO AA filter.

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Thanks too for the interesting read regarding alternate technologies. If money were no object for me, I'd buy the M9 (or a H3D II 50 for that matter) in a heartbeat. Alas, the demands of working life have now dictated to me my future and I'm forced to move into a more practical SLR type system. Comparing non image characteristics, such as build quality and handling, the Nikon wins for me subjectively over Canon. From a limited amount of tests, I also prefer the files from Nikon as it seems to me the AA filter isn't as heavy handed. When owning an M8, I was always amazed at how sharp the images were straight out of camera. The detail really did blow me away for a 10mp camera in a way that pixel peeping a N or C file in ACR doesn't. But I got a lot of Moire with the M8 which used to drive me nuts. Noise with the M8 was also a problem for me, especially when I shot another system that used CMOS alongside it. I just found the CCD noise objectionable by comparison, especially in the shadows.
    I guess all I'm saying, in a long winded way, is that what Bob has written seems to be backed by my admittedly limited experience.

    On another note, I wonder how limiting the electronic components are of the M9 with regard to introducing system noise etc. From memory, Jenoptic developed the digital components as an evolution from the M8 electronics and the parts aren't overly specialized, compared to what will be under the hood of the S2 and future offerings. I'm not engineer so I have no idea about what the advantages would be to using the Meistro chip etc. Either way, the M9 seems sweet and wish I had the money to get one to use with my lenses instead of being forced to go in the opposite direction... Bloody life choices are biting me in the butt.

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    @ Bob

    while I back most of your explanations - and BTW thanks for this great summary - I cannot share what you say about A filters and that their effect can be reverted by sharpening.

    The issue is that the AA filter makes for loss of image information and even if this can be compensated to some degree by sharpening, finally lost information cannot be recovered.

    So for me all solutions which can survive without AA filter are clear favorites, as I demand highest IQ. Of course there are situations where the use of an AA filter makes absolute sense.
    If you demand highest IQ, then you might desire no aliasing. Sensors themselves, since they are periodic by their construction, are subject to all sorts of sampling artifacts. The absence of an AA filter does not remove these at all. The presense of an AA filter reduces the degree to which they influence the image.
    Theoretically, if an AA filter is tuned correctly, you will not be able to see its effect, other than a reduction in artifacts. Some look at these artifacts as "sharpness" which it is not, since it includes frequency compenents greater than half the period of the sensor.
    If you like it, great, but it is not quality, it is an illusion; there is no data there.

    Now I agree that bad AA filters are bad, and I have seen AA filters that were too strong for their purpose. Yes those are terrible, but a well designed AA filter is sweet and almost invisible, unless you are an artifact aficionado. Sharpening can increase the pixel to pixel contrast to levels that might be expected without an AA filter provided that the bandpass of that filter approximates twice the inter-pixel period. If it is stronger than that, its effect is to reduce the sensor resolution to whatever its bandpass might be. The best way to look at files, under those situations, is to down-res the files appropriately, since there is no information other than what is passed by the AA filter.
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 26th September 2009 at 17:22.

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Well the future will bring CMOS, CCDs are more or less at the limit. Perhaps one more generation of MFDBs. I really think CMOS are better in a lot of ways. What would I give for real live view with my Phase back when working on a large format camera.

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Theoretically, if an AA filter is tuned correctly, you will not be able to see its effect, other than a reduction in artifacts.
    With Canon and Nikon, this is very much theory: the results are very heavy-handed and horribly unpleasant.

    I wonder if this is what Leica has done with the S2? On the one hand, it should be possible to produce moiré with that sensor, especially given how incredibly sharp the results are, yet on the other hand, no one has apparently been able to so far. On the gripping hand (semi-obscure sci-fi reference), Leica claims that there is no AA filter and that it is handled in software, as far as I know. Some software!
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    From layman's terms and my bet is somehow in camera processing is going on which the sensor reads the limit and has a cutoff for the nyquist limit. Sort of like a governor in a car. But you would think that be a big marketing tool and it is barely mentioned. Not sure how this is done because every sensor on the planet has the same issue it is what they do to deal with it. AA filters usually are the answer. Any 6 micron sensor will moire and I have done it with the P40+ it is better than the 6.8 micron sensor.

    Just have to wait until I get this in my hands.
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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    it would be interesting to test this with a graduated ruled-plate, which has a series of parallel lines that gradually get closer together.
    It might also be testable with something like a window screen at the proper distance calculated to cause on-sensor lines at about the range of 1.0 pixel pitch and then varying it to around 4.0 pixel pitch. That should be interesting.
    If the firmware were doing high frequency anti-alias roll-off, then the screen would simply disappear. This technique is sometimes implemented in raw converter de-bayering algorithms.
    Older Canikons really over-did it with too strong filters but the latest generation camera are noticeably better in this regard. I have used a proprietary raw converter used for geo-surveillance at one consulting gig which used this technique since there was no AA filter at all in the satellite's camera. It did not work that well, at least for this purpose, since sampling alias artifacts were still quite visible near the Nyquist limit unless the cut-off frequency was set quite low which produced a result surprisingly similar, well predictable actually, to an AA filter. The trick is not to eliminate the filter but to have the right filter. This is actually a fairly difficult proposition and fairly expensive especially during quality control. It seems to be harder to make precisely blurry glass than extremely clear glass.
    -bob

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    With Canon and Nikon, this is very much theory: the results are very heavy-handed and horribly unpleasant.

    I wonder if this is what Leica has done with the S2? On the one hand, it should be possible to produce moiré with that sensor, especially given how incredibly sharp the results are, yet on the other hand, no one has apparently been able to so far. On the gripping hand (semi-obscure sci-fi reference), Leica claims that there is no AA filter and that it is handled in software, as far as I know. Some software!
    I agree, didn't like it on the 1DMKIII, 1DsMKIII or the D3 and D700.

    Not heavy handed on the D3X. Still there, but much, much better. Which in part is maybe why it makes such a good B&W DSLR ... really close to the M8. Nikon got this one right IMO.


    -Marc

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    it would be interesting to test this with a graduated ruled-plate, which has a series of parallel lines that gradually get closer together.
    It might also be testable with something like a window screen at the proper distance calculated to cause on-sensor lines at about the range of 1.0 pixel pitch and then varying it to around 4.0 pixel pitch. That should be interesting.
    If the firmware were doing high frequency anti-alias roll-off, then the screen would simply disappear. This technique is sometimes implemented in raw converter de-bayering algorithms.
    Older Canikons really over-did it with too strong filters but the latest generation camera are noticeably better in this regard. I have used a proprietary raw converter used for geo-surveillance at one consulting gig which used this technique since there was no AA filter at all in the satellite's camera. It did not work that well, at least for this purpose, since sampling alias artifacts were still quite visible near the Nyquist limit unless the cut-off frequency was set quite low which produced a result surprisingly similar, well predictable actually, to an AA filter. The trick is not to eliminate the filter but to have the right filter. This is actually a fairly difficult proposition and fairly expensive especially during quality control. It seems to be harder to make precisely blurry glass than extremely clear glass.
    -bob


    Back of a air conditioning unit , works every time. I run into this all the time also shooting avionics screens for a customer my trick is to back off on critical focus and stop down a extra stop. Still get sharp images but the patterns go away. Here is a sample when I backed off on the focusing
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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    backing off the focus a touch is pretty much like adding your own form of AA filter.
    It removes the sharpest of the sharp (takes away the highest frequencies).
    -bob

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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Exactly Bob and when you know you have a issue at hand a good trick
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    Re: M9 Another Leica Journey (Report)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Another nice candidate for printing. Here I took what I learned from the saturation post on the M9 went -10 and than I had to balance the exposure between them to balance.

    But here just looking how nice cousins they really are . Holding up ever so nicely together .

    I should note I do have a thing for the Kodak sensors that I always liked there color better. Now with the new Dalsa sensors I still have to play around with that. Some may say these are old sensors the P30 and M9. Trust me nothing wrong with these older tech sensors in the slightest. They produce and that is what counts. Again watch the marketing out there
    I was asked to explain how to set this up in C1 as a style. What I learned from the M9 files and the C1 profile and this also seems true in LR as well is the saturation needs to come down a little and also the Kelvin temp is about 300 to the warm side, plus lets add in here -1 on tint has a slight red bias overall. Now i could add clarity if i wanted to but not every file you will want this. Basically when you setup a style to apply to all your images in your folder you should really think in terms of basic camera calibration. This way everything gets that same treatment than do your WB and Clarity and other individual controls per image than as a group.

    So lets set this up in C1 . First image as it comes in. Second image making those basic camera calibrations. Now lets be clear there is nothing wrong with the camera coming in but more to do with the profile in your raw converter. So these basic issues will be in LR as well but maybe slightly different hard numbers. So fist image coming in than second image adjustment changes and underlined in red you can see that change
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Now very important here . After you made that change go to the thumbnail and right click you mouse. Than COPY the adjustment
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Now go over to the adjustment clipboard 10 tabs over from the left. It should look like this. Now check the columns you want to save as the camera calibration style.Now I checked DETAILS which i could have left off but I do have a base sharpening going on so I do want to copy that. Some thing are at zero anyway like highlight recovery and shadow recovery. It's okay to copy them if you did nothing to them which here I did not
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    If you notice the very bottom left there is a style button and here you hit save as style. Than you get a dialog box and change the name to whatever you want. Did not do it here but I will call mine M9 Import. You will see that on next post
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    So now I have my new style which is the basic calibration setup. Now I could add here you can do more styles like this and apply to certain types of files. It's endless

    Now back in the tab which for me is the third tab over from the left. I have my style menu . Here after I select any images of the thumbnail and apply to that image. (Note not sure what happened on the color of this something must have stuck on something weird but not a function of C1)

    Now this will do one image at a time and simply trick here after you set the style on one copy that do a select all and than apply adjustments to all images or a group of images
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Hopefully that helps some. Now obviously these are adjustments i thought where as close to a color checker card and close to a P30 file. Now there is nothing wrong with a warmer kelvin temp if that is what you like and on many outdoor scenes it is a nice look. So here you can make a style for different scenes like outdoor , indoor and so on. I don't always work this way either so again need to find your workflow.

    Like Photoshop there are other ways to skin the cat too and I asked a few other experts to weigh in as well.
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Now Version 5 coming out may change this a little and hopefully we will have a tutorial on that coming soon
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  29. #279
    sebasco
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Thanks Guy,

    That was a great tutorial. I have one basic question, however. It appears to me that one would have to do a different style setup each time you import photos as there really is no way to decrease the temperature by 300 kelvin or so on each print, right? Or am I missing something?

  30. #280
    bender
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Now Version 5 coming out may change this a little and hopefully we will have a tutorial on that coming soon
    Any news on version 5? I am just learning 4.8.3 as I tend to work out of Aperture most of the time but I like the output that i am seeing from c-1

  31. #281
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Version 5 is scheduled for a October 28th release. Fingers crossed. Here are some items we have heard and maybe even more than this.

    - All present Leaf cameras will be compatible but no word on older ones. (my guess would be yes though)
    - Live Preview is back
    - Focus tool is improved with multiple focus points and small focus window and can float.
    - Focus Mask tool , works like exposure warning but highlights areas that have sharpness in each thumbnail
    - Metadata now has unlimited customizable entries
    - Dust eraser in raws
    - Uniform Light tool replaces LCC's and is applied. Also fixes up to 4 stops of falloff!
    - Indivdual RBG channel mods is back
    - Vignetting on crops
    - strong Watermark tool
    - Simplified and corrected Importer from CF cards with activity monitor (yes, you guys will be happy with this)
    - Customizable tabs. You can eliminate all the tabs if you want to or add new ones.
    - Local "apply all" on each tool
    - improved noise reduction
    - Session tab pull down menu added
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  32. #282
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Like to update my comment here , what we are hoping for in version 5 is when you import a CF card you can also do a import with style. So when things comes in they automatically get the style you may have created

    My quote for reference
    Now this will do one image at a time and simply trick here after you set the style on one copy that do a select all and than apply adjustments to all images or a group of images
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  33. #283
    bender
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Wow, nice to see a mature product still aggressively looking to improve. How does there upgrading process work? free minor releases but pay for the big upgrades (such that 4.x. to 5.x is a pay for upgrade but 4.x to 4.y is free?).

    Thanks Guy for the info.

    (sorry to have hijacked the thread..)

  34. #284
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Yes I think and we will see what numbers come in but in whole numbers like 3,4,5 are upgrades and 4.7 to 4.8 is free updates. Have to wait till they confirm the pricing coming out. I think owners at version 4 upgrade is 100 dollars but don't quote me
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  35. #285
    kitty
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Does Capture One v.5 support M9 tethering to Mac?

    kitty

  36. #286
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Both C1 and LR have capture hot folders in their program but I did not try and see if it does actually work in C1 4.8.3 . I don't have LR on my system anymore but maybe someone here could try it. I think the M9 is USB. I will have the M9 again in Oregon starting late next week and we certainly can try it in both programs and we should have C1 Version 5 also.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  37. #287
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Just FYI i have C1 beta of version 5 and the noise has improved even more on the M9 files . At ISO 1250 it looks very good with just a touch of noise reduction. Being a beta i can't show this but I am impressed. I know that was a tease sorry but still a beta it is not nailed down all the way either and i don't want to dilute results until full version is out the end of the month but get ready i think M9 folks will be happy.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  38. #288
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Version 5 is scheduled for a October 28th release. Fingers crossed. Here are some items we have heard and maybe even more than this.
    The word on: http://forum.phaseone.com/En/index.p...0ff7b1d39689bc is that the keyboard shortcuts that were on v3 will return on v5. A shortcut editor, also. Does your beta confirm that?
    Roger
    Leica M6, M8.2 & assorted Leica glass

  39. #289
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Not sure Roger have yet to really dig deep but the ones I use are still there. Okay You do have a choice to get 3.7 shortcuts so yes. Trying to be a little careful here but I can give one up. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  40. #290
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Understand. NDAs are such a pain!
    Roger
    Leica M6, M8.2 & assorted Leica glass

  41. #291
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisssteeven View Post
    One of the most frequent questions I've received over the last six months has been, "When will Leica come out with an M9?" My honest answer has always been that I didn't know, just that the M9 was a top priority for Leica. What we didn't know was that they have been quietly working on one since April of last year. Then, back in July I was invited to make a pilgrimage to Germany and get a rare opportunity to test out the S2. No I didn't just make a typo. Yes, this is an M9 review.
    Sorry, I don't understand your point. Also I'm confused; the M9 was announced Sept. 9, which would be over 5 months ago.

  42. #292
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    It's a spam bot, I think. Look at the signature. They are getting more and more clever. I could be wrong about this one, but I have seen it happen at other forums.

  43. #293
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Well that will get ya banned which i just did . Thanks for the heads up Helena and another good member here.

    And yes they are certainly getting more clever but thanks to members here that pick up on this stuff we appreciate you letting us know. BTW just hit that little triangle in the signature area and that reports stuff to all the mods.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  44. #294
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Oddly enough, that except was copied and pasted from my M9 review.

    Very strange.

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

  45. #295
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Very. Well he is banned. I don't need these links for one and i obviously don't like plagiarism either.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  46. #296
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Oddly enough, that except was copied and pasted from my M9 review.

    Very strange.

    David
    Not sure how it works, but it must be automated somehow, because I can't imagine actual people doing this? Or maybe they have hired poor people to do it?

    They have probably figured out how to make a spam-bot (automated spammer script or something) sign up, set up a signature with a link to whatever product they want to promote, and then copy text with certain keywords and paste that text into other threads (matching those keywords) as new posts. Very sophisticated if that's how it works. I wish they could use that time and effort into something useful instead...

    Why am I in a M9 thread btw.!? I guess I enjoy reading about it and looking at photos and dream...

  47. #297
    Super Duper
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Can't help but scratch my head and wonder who profits from these types of posts or emails.
    Don Libby
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  48. #298
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Guy thank you, thank you for starting this M9 review and forum and making the files available for download (which I am doing as I write this). I would like to address one question to you regarding focusing. The files I've looked at of yours so far are all tack sharp. I've been researching the M9 for a couple of weeks now and read so much about so many folks having focusing issues...."can't focus", M9 and lens focus incompatibilities, or both, etc etc. Only range finder I've ever used was the Mamiya 7 film and don't remember having any focusing issues.

    Do you have focusing issues with the M9....is it THAT difficult to get proper focus, especially wide open? Do you use the magnifier?

    Many thanks! Eleanor

  49. #299
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Eleanor,

    I'm not Guy however let me add my 2cents worth here.

    Focusing - I've had no problems and I wear tri-focals (corrected to 20-20). This is the first camera with a viewfinder that I've had no problems with using while wearing glasses. I find I'm always looking over the top of my glasses when I use my IR or Sandy's 1DsIII however I'm looking straight through them with the M9.

    I haven't had any problems with focusing and I do not use a magnifier on any of the lens (35 f2, 50 f/2, 90 f/2.5)

    Don

    I've written about my first couple weeks experiences using the M9 on my blog and have added images as I went.
    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
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  50. #300
    Senior Member eleanorbrown's Avatar
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    Re: Leica M9 Review ( The Journey Begins)

    Thanks Don. good to hear from someone not having any focusing issues! I would be focusing with my right eye, which has contact lens correction for looking at my 30 inch computer screen from 22 to 34 inches...close to 20/20 when my eyes are not tired. I have no idea if I will need to purchase a minus diopter for the M9 or not. (think I read that one needs correct vision at 1 meter for the M9 rangefinder).....Wish they had made the M9 diopter correctable like in every other camera I've owned (well except for my mamiya 7 which was also a rangefinder.)
    eleanor


    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    Eleanor,

    I'm not Guy however let me add my 2cents worth here.

    Focusing - I've had no problems and I wear tri-focals (corrected to 20-20). This is the first camera with a viewfinder that I've had no problems with using while wearing glasses. I find I'm always looking over the top of my glasses when I use my IR or Sandy's 1DsIII however I'm looking straight through them with the M9.

    I haven't had any problems with focusing and I do not use a magnifier on any of the lens (35 f2, 50 f/2, 90 f/2.5)

    Don

    I've written about my first couple weeks experiences using the M9 on my blog and have added images as I went.

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