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Thread: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    guy and jack,
    excellent review, finally after a lot of rather boring stuff. thank you guys a lot for your efforts.
    as far as i am concerned, it became clear that leica has learned a lot so far but still has a long a long way to go as far as digital technology goes. even the lens comparism isn't clearly in leica's favour. my conclusion is: interesting, with potential, not bettter (slightly worse actually) than the competition but much more expensive and inflexible system. canikon will be there at their next iteration, with live view, sensor cleaning, video and you name.
    you gus have just saved me a lot of money, happy to wine&dine you at our first personal meeting. i am off the S2 list (btw i have held first place there completely uncontested....this also tells a story i suppose...).
    peter
    Same for me, after reading all these reviews, analyzing all available images and having my VERY POSITIVE experiences now with Hasselblad H System and using the Sony Aplha 900 as DSLR with all Zeiss glass, I am out of the game for the S System for many years to come.

    The next iteration of Nikon, Canon and even more Sony will be pretty close to the S System, but for a much more attractive price and much more features.

    And Hasselblad with their coming H4D60 is something almost light years ahead of the competition in terms of IQ I am pretty sure.

    Saves lot of money - YEAH !!!!!

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I wonder why the camera was launched into the very obvious "public test market" without the 35mm?
    Marc
    Been wondering the same thing Marc... and not only because the lens lineup is incomplete. Leica obviously has a made a huge investment in developing this system. I don't think they did themselves a favor by allowing public testing before resolving some of the issues mentioned in this review (and others). The buffer and tethered shooting issues should either have been remedied before release or there should have been some kind of "known issues" statement made. I suppose one could argue that Leica has learned some things about it's camera from these tests but it seems to me that they should have been able to discover them on their own, privately. Not my idea of brilliant marketing. Having said that, I really liked the S2 and am confident that these issues will be addressed and fixed... hopefully, very soon. Jack and Guy... thanks for the effort, it was a great review.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Well first thing out of the gate is lossless compression. It would help the buffer by being able to push data faster and tethering as well. That software is still beta but regardless it still has to push data. The P40+ for example is a 35mg Raw file. If Leica can at least half the 70 mg DNG than it just has to push faster through the bottlenecks. Even if it is only 25 percent faster than the buffer would jump to 8 or so. Not a engineer but this seems to be a no brainer. My bet right now is they are attacking this and it should be corrected and let's assume it does. Tethering needs to be preview in less than 3 seconds otherwise it is a issue when checking focus and stuff that happens on set quickly. I think noise is another area Leica will be working on. But I would love to see pixel binning sometime down the road as well.
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Sorry Guy, but I really have doubts that Leica can manage anything like it. I sometimes really wonder if they have any clue when it comes to working with software based stuff. (firmware, compressions and all that stuff) I mean even the Leica M9 files are way to large compared to Canon, Nikon or Sony files.

    I really hope they manage something, I just hope even more that they create a lossless compression and don't go the same route as with the M9 and destroying the files to a lower bit version in the compression mode.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    From the S2 user manual:
    "B for longtime exposures up to maximum 32 s"

    Leica are having a big joke at our expense. All that moolah for a camera which won't even let us take long continuous exposures, e.g. astro? 32 seconds is nothing. And a "series" of 10x 32 seconds is neither the same as a single 320 second exposure (as the series has temporal gaps and is noisier), nor is it long enough still.

    It's pretty clear what happened - this camera was designed by techies who like binary numbers i.e. powers of 2 (2^5 = 32). It was not designed by reference to the actual needs of photographers.

    BTW, fantastic job, Guy and Jack! You are doing a great service to the community.
    Last edited by ondebanks; 15th December 2009 at 05:38. Reason: Forgot to acknowledge the excellent work of the reviewers!!

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    A question for Doug Peterson: are you sure using the focus button on the back of the S2 camera always mandates Continuous Focus? When I used the S2 some time before your Dec. hands on, it was single focus when using the back button ... or so I thought.
    I'm completely sure this was true of the specific production-hardware prerelease-firmware S2 that I shot with on December 3rd. However, earlier or later versions of the firmware may show different behavior. The Leica reps were not aware of the issue, but to be fair 1) firmware can be a surprisingly fast moving part of camera development so this may have changed and 2) most photographers wouldn't use the AF-On button, and most that would use it wouldn't mind if it was AF-Servo with no option for AF-OneShot - it is a very specific market that would find this to be a problem.

    Hopefully the release-firmware will either allow the option for either One-Shot and Servo on the AF-On button.

    Doug

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    Last edited by dougpeterson; 15th December 2009 at 06:20.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Guy and Jack,
    Kudos and thanks for all the great and tedious work you went through to produce a good, objective and useful review. This is very helpful for anyone seriously thinking about any of these systems. I think it was a very good choice on your parts to publish both the default processing samples and to make the RAWs available. It is good to see just what the S2 produces straight out of the camera using the provided software. Also very nice that you have provided some insights on just how much tweaking, direction and amounts folks might need or at least start with to get very respectable files from the start. Great stuff.

    Without getting into details, and also echoing what others have said above and in their own perspectives, it seems like the S2 has hit MOST of its marks, but maybe not some of those that are still important for this type of camera. Hoping Leica does take positive action on some of this to help make the S2 even better.....or maybe just hitting more of the marks From what you have shared, it does seem clear that the S2 is a worthy contender, but may have some headwind, as the differences in IQ compared to P40+ seem negligible....to me at least. I still am not seeing too much "magic" from the legendary Leica glass either. It is doing an excellent job, no doubt, but for the costs, I was kind of expecting a bit more somehow. The "wow" factor is not really there for me, but the glass does look very good.

    On the processing side, it does appear that Leica really needs to get a lot more involved with the software side of things, and not just hand it off to Adobe and hope they are able to get what Leica may be thinking and wanting. This also applies to the tethering software. Both of these are absolutely critical to the overall performance and acceptance of this sort of camera, in my opinion. Not saying the third party folks will not produce things that are not good, as they will, eventually. Just thinking that the new flagship camera from Leica should come with seriously good and current support from the start.

    The other things mentioned, such as buffer size, lack of ISO posting in viewfinder, etc., still have me wondering how that was missed or undershot in design and build, especially if there is not a good live video and computer connection to make it more usable. Just thinking out loud here....

    Anyway, thanks again for doing such a great job on this review, and providing files that many of us can work in our own ways. That makes the review stellar.

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    From the S2 user manual:
    "B for longtime exposures up to maximum 32 s"
    Trust nothing the user manual says. For logistics reasons they have to already have a user manual done (or at least a strong publicly viewable pre-release version of it) many weeks before the camera ships.

    This is the sort of thing that can change overnight in pre-release firmware improvements. Or not. The point is not to take the user manual you read as a bible of the features or capabilities of the system. I read the manual cover-to-cover before our test day and during only two days of testing I discovered many menus or specific behaviors that were documented differently in the user manual. One example is that (on the S2 firmware that we tested) the Exposure Compensation will be remembered when you turn the camera off-then-on while the Exposure Bracketing will be reset - the manual (at least the one available the week before our testing) stated that both would be reset.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    One other thing ..

    Also, I tend to disagree with the poster that felt the S2 mid-tones tend to pop more. Maybe compared to how the Phase One shots were provided for this review, but in working with S2 files for some weeks now ... I tried doing S2 B&W conversions and IMO that is where mid-tone "POP" reveals itself more clearly ... or lack of. I still feel the S2 files are a bit flat and lack some aspects of Leica 3D character one would expect.


    Marc
    This "pop" and 3D is usually the first charateristic that I look for. I couldn't open the S2 in LR 3 beta 64 bit , so went to C!
    even without the profiling files look good.
    First impression; the P40+ files are damn good! real "reach into' kind of 3D look.

    The S2 had but to a lesser extent. I think the problem is the different focus points; that, and the different DOF may be changing the character, frame to frame.

    The fact that the S2 can compete with P40+ on IQ, at roughly same price would seem to make it competitive.
    It comes down to; easy handling in rugged, small platform [S2] or flexible back, techcam capable [Phase back]

    I see nothing that would make me sell Contax/P65+ for this; but if I had nothing, I would likely go the S2 route.

    Victor

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Thanks LJ the big thing we wanted to do is get the raws in folks hands that don't have a chance to try this thing out. It's a nice shooting cam no doubt. I loved the 3 inch LCD ( who would not coming from MF Land) and some of the features like dual cards and a DSLR style of shooting make it a nice cam to use. Obviously it's not for everyone that shoots in MF land today with tech camera's and or needs the modular design and replaceable parts which to some is very important. This is stuff we have all shared many of times but end of day i liked shooting it but the first day with AF i was missing a ton until we found that rear button for AF to me at least it made all the difference shooting.

    As far as processing i wish we could do more C1 as fine a program that it is and i do love it , which I make no secret about that. It just is not cutting it until the profiles are built and the gnomes from Phase get there grimey fingers on the files that it should rock. Again LR is not so hot either and i was not really excited what I was seeing from that as well. Obviously beta and not supporting it. Would love to see what Raw developer is doing on these . Hopefully someone can process a few up and post them here. Like anything else this stuff takes time. Phase, Hassy, Sinar and leaf have been around for a long time and there systems are pretty solid for the most part but they have had time to do that. Leica needs a little time as well but my one bitch is the glass where is it and try shooting a 70 and 180 for two days I was pretty frustrated not having a wide angle . Let's be honest here i can't survive without wide angles. LOL
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    This "pop" and 3D is usually the first charateristic that I find. I couldn't open the S2 in LR 3 beta 64 bit , so went to C!
    even without the profiling files look good.
    First impression; the P40+ files are damn good! real "reach into' kind of 3D look.

    The S2 had but to a lesser extent. I think the problem is the different focus points; that, and the different DOF may be changing the character, frame to frame.

    The fact that the S2 can compete with P40+ on IQ, at roughly same price would seem to make it competitive.
    It comes down to; easy handling in rugged, small platform [S2] or flexible back, techcam capable [Phase back]

    I see nothing that would make me sell Contax/P65+ for this; but if I had nothing, I would likely go the S2 route.

    Victor
    Pretty amazing how those phase lenses are. LOL

    Victor just giving you some stuff.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Part of this is we are processing these files dumb and what I mean by that we are not going beyond the defaults. If you try clarity in C1 this will boost the mid tone contrast and such. So really not all the available tools or our processing in this review is beyond the defaults. We did NOT take creative license in this review because it just is not controlled enough to be a reliable fair test. As a tester or reviewer you just can't give out non repeatable tests so we have to be careful in these tests. On the S2 files I would actually add black in and watch LR it adds 5 points of black coming in to start. Reason get a few files and work them to your needs. In my Phase P40 back I would add maybe 15 on clarity. So outside this test we will do some things differently and that we did not explore here. At least not yet
    Guy and Jack,

    Nice work on the testing.

    Perhaps I can offer a suggestion on LR processing. I had a conversation with Stephan Shulz (product manager of the S2) at PhotoPlus in October and he gave me some pointers on LR settings. I had originally processed many of my S2 pictures from Germany using either the default black level of 5 or higher. He recommended lowering the black level to either 2 or 3 and using the shadow slider under tone curve to increase shadow contrast. I went back and reprocessed my files and saw a noticeable improvement in shadow detail without sacrificing contrast.

    I tried this with some of your DNGs and found similar results.

    Stephan indicated that once the firmware in the S2 is finalized, the resulting DNGs will most likely carry the default black value of 2 into LR so the user doesn't have to change it. In the meantime, I've created a LR preset to do the same.

    With regards to sharpening, I agree that the S2 files can be pushed over the edge pretty easily. I found that I had to take the radius all the way to the minimum (0.5 in LR) and keep my sharpening amount under 50. Also, I found that adding clarity (any at all) just wasn't to my taste as it created a digital look.

    Just adding my 2c for anyone who might be processing the S2 DNGs in LR for the first time themselves.

    David
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    From the S2 user manual:
    "B for longtime exposures up to maximum 32 s"
    The current maximum exposure time in B is 120s.

    32s is the maximum in A or P mode.

    David
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Thanks David I did exactly that and dropped the black point immediately down. On what I posted here I actually leveled it out to zero with no clipping but my taste for sure would be 2 or 3 . I like a little snap myself and regularly clip just slightly on the shadow side on purpose. Good tip and one reason we wanted folks to play around with the raws and find out some of this on there own and there taste. Hopefully we provided a good balance of shooting to to fit what types of photography people do. I might with some time here go back in and process what I personally like. We tried to keep things as neutral as possible for better comparisons but all these files both the s2 and P40 have a ton of pushing around elbow. Just watch the sharpening on the S2 at least in C1. In C1 try pre sharpen 1 than lower it down to about 130 or so. That looked pretty good . Maybe Jack can give some more thoughts on settings , he did create a profile but that dealt with color.
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Pretty amazing how those phase lenses are. LOL

    Victor just giving you some stuff.
    Yes, maybe Phase has had a good effect on Mamyia - whatever works.

    On the S2, maybe surprised there isn't a stroneger character in the S2 lenses, but I think all such detailed musings must wait for optimal post processing.

    BTW, in using the color checker frames, really helped to get better color in C1. What's nice is you can click thru the 'white-greys' for the look you want.

    Nice set of opened/closed and ranges of ISO an speed. Thanks for the hard work,

    Now, one thing (like asking about interconnects in steroe!)... you don't think the fact that the P40 was on a CUBE and the S2 was on a BALLHEAD made any difference? do you?

    ......nahhhhhh :-)

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Victor BUY one of those Color Checkers passports we really liked them a lot. No difference on the heads mine is a rock. LOL

    Actually all the P40 and s2 where on mostly my tripod , yes i am a looser with no cube. LOL

    Hell wish I made them to be honest but I highly recommend them.
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Good review guys.....thanks

    Sandy

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Folks also if we missed something and need some clarification and such let us know. I can get some answers from Leica as well to questions that you may have. I know we missed some stuff, so if you have anything please let's get them out so we can get answers for you.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    First impression; the P40+ files are damn good! real "reach into' kind of 3D look.
    Victor
    Agreed.....it's those P40+ images that impressed me the most!

    Gary

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    It also should be mentioned that the Leica S lenses are considerably more expensive than the other MF alternatives, with some exceptions, so a total system price would be much higher for the Leica.

    I don't understand why these S lenses need to be so big, especially seen next to the alternatives, including medium format and 35mm AF lenses.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    i do wish leica had invested the R&D that was needed to get the S2 to its present state into the M9 instead. that would have made a great camera out of the M9 on one hand and on the other hand the MF world would not have lost anything. i still hope that nikon goes into MF (but doubt it).
    peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    ....I mean even the Leica M9 files are way to large compared to Canon, Nikon or Sony files.
    ...
    Maybe in case of the M9 it is all the details in the images which make the files so big

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    why are the 40 files not showing full size in LR? The S2 are, but looks like Im only getting big thumbnails of the phase
    my LR says it has ACR 6.0?
    Victor et al;

    A note on processing Phase files in LR:

    Recent firmware upgrades for Phase backs allow for an "IIQ" (all caps) file extension. Phase's historical raw extension has been "TIF" (all caps) with either IIQL (lossless) or IIQs (slightly lossy) compression. As of now, I think LR does not recognize the Phase TIF extension as a Phase raw file, so reads the embedded icon tif which is a thumbnail. The TIF raw Guy posted is identical to the IIQ raw, so all you should need to do to open the TIF in LR is to rename the extension to IIQ (all caps).

    EDIT: It seems the P40+ raw file in either format is not supported at all by ACR or LR currently.

    All that said, I do NOT recommend processing the Phase files in ACR or LR -- C1 does a significantly better job with them.

    Cheers,
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    A tour de force, gentlemen, well done!

    A great read for me. Though not a candidate for DMF, it's fun seeing what those of you who are in photography, professionally, are looking for.
    Roger
    Leica M6, M8.2 & assorted Leica glass

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Thanks Roger , I think it is safe to say to the OEM's we are a big PITA. LOL

    We certainly ask a lot out of these companies to build us a perfect box but on the same hand a lot of it is genuinely needed as well. Digital is a different realm and the need for many different options is obviously there. Just looking at the DSLR cousins with a million menu items which many think are too much but we are dealing with a huge variety of shooters that require certain items. We may think it is too much but to the guy that needs a certain function he is a happy camper.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Curious are we able to get the raws okay. I know it's slower than watching paint dry but the are BIG
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Hi Guy and Jack
    Phenomenal amount of work here. I can only join with everyone else in saying thanks for doing a great job. Makes my decision to upgrade from the AFD3 to the 645DF much easier too! BTW I'm not having any problems downloading the RAWS, they're pretty quick. Thanks again.

    Olaf

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Great good to hear that. Any questions on processing and such . Here to help .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Let me add my .02 here.

    First of all congratulations on writing such a great review. I know how difficult a challenge this can be so thanks on behalf of all of us for taking the time to do this (and under such time pressure as well as the usual issues)

    I am not very concerned about a number of the issues you discovered as I am sure Leica will correct these in firmware (hopefully faster than they are correcting some of the M9 issues!)

    My biggest concern is the quality of the lenses. I didn't feel that the issue of a tech camera was such a big deal since I felt, based on the MTF's and many interviews with Peter Karbe of Leica that the Leica lenses should be the equal of the Rodenstock and Schneider digital lenses. It would appear this is not so given the equality of the Leica lenses and their Mamiya/Phase counterparts. I think this may be a serious issue for Leica to overcome, particularly at their price points. But we'll see when a true production system is able to be bought. I would say though that no one should be considering to sell their WRS, Alpas etc

    Anyway, again my thanks and appreciation for you work on our behalf. It is an interesting world we live in for sure.

    Best

    Woody

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Any idea on what's going on with the exposure differences between ISO 50 and 100 on the P40+?

    Looking at the ugly house shot files 315.tif and 319.tif they were shot at equivalent exposures but the 100 ISO shot needs -.5 EV correction to match.

    Also when playing around in Raw Developer, I'm seeing what I guess are centerfold issues on some of the P40+ files but not the S2 files. It even shows up in C1 on some of the ISO tests.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Woody, I think the Leica lenses will hold their own against the competition. We have yet to see any real lens comparisions in terms of corner sharpness, vingetting, distortion, wide-open vs stopped down, etc. I know when I tried the S2 I did not shoot any brick walls or test targets because my time was limited and I was more concerned with getting a feel for performance of the overall package. Keep in mind that I am not saying the S2 lenses are better than anything else.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Woody my personal believe as good as the Rodenstocks and Schnieders are rated I am not so sure they are worlds away from the Hassy, Rollie, Phase and leica lenses but that is certainly worth testing for sure. Sure there are some dogs we may leave on the porch but most of the modern glass we are all using is just damn good. Who among us besides the Phase shooters thought they where this good. Come on admit it folks , better than the reputation of the Mamiya name and that has been it's issue. The D glass is good maybe not up to the build standards of some but they produce. Okay maybe i am a little bias there but I'm not leaving any on the porch either. LOL

    Bottom line they are all good systems we just need to find the ones that work for you.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    Any idea on what's going on with the exposure differences between ISO 50 and 100 on the P40+?

    Looking at the ugly house shot files 315.tif and 319.tif they were shot at equivalent exposures but the 100 ISO shot needs -.5 EV correction to match.

    Also when playing around in Raw Developer, I'm seeing what I guess are centerfold issues on some of the P40+ files but not the S2 files. It even shows up in C1 on some of the ISO tests.
    Greg can you show us the centerfold issues. I know Doug would be real interested in that.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    Any idea on what's going on with the exposure differences between ISO 50 and 100 on the P40+?

    Looking at the ugly house shot files 315.tif and 319.tif they were shot at equivalent exposures but the 100 ISO shot needs -.5 EV correction to match.
    Yes, that was one of the oddities and I am not sure exactly what is going on, but my guess comes back to WB and profile since both will affect exposure. For the clipping test, I actually boosted the S2 exposure by 0.2 and reduced the P40+ exposure by 0.2 to get them to match values on the gray in the tin roof. Why we give you the raws!

    Also when playing around in Raw Developer, I'm seeing what I guess are centerfold issues on some of the P40+ files but not the S2 files. It even shows up in C1 on some of the ISO tests.
    Exactly which P40+ file are you seeing centerfold issues out of C1 in, and what version of C1 are you running?
    Jack
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    While I primarily use LR for S2 file processing, C1 does have the advantage of being able to use a true ICC camera profile vs. the proprietary Adobe DCR file. Using my EyeOne XT system and a little tweaking, I've developed a camera profile for use in C1. I shot the Color Checker SG test target (140 color patches) using the latest S2 firmware in a controlled studio environment.

    Feel free to download it here: LeicaR8-Leica S2 v2 (DF 1209).icc

    The reason for calling it LeicaR8 is so that C1 will show it under the profile options in the quick tab. If I tried calling it LiecaS2.... it won't show, most likely due to there being no official support for S2 DNG files. To install, locate the DSLR folder under Color Profiles and drop it in. Restart C1 and navigate to Leica -> R8 -> Leica S2 v2 (DF 1209). I find it useful to right-click, do a clone variant, and apply the profile to the new variant. That way you can see the differences more easily.

    The result should be fairly neutral skin tones, much improved sky, foliage, and primaries like red and yellow. Of course, I'd appreciate feedback, and I'm happy to work on variants for different tastes.

    Please note that this profile only addresses color of S2 files in C1 and does not address the maze pattern artifacts, specular color "sparkles", etc. that I've noticed (and Jack has mentioned in his piece above).

    David
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Yea we seen some of the color sparkles in the eyes with makeup and some hair artifacts. Thanks David for providing the profile. I would not worry about anyone getting a S2 on this issue , all of this should be straightened out soon with LR and C1.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post

    Exactly which P40+ file are you seeing centerfold issues out of C1 in, and what version of C1 are you running?
    I'm running out the door now otherwise I'd post a crop, but it shows up in Noise_0005 and 0004 in the wood drawers just under the Mentadent bottle. It jumped out at me on the Raw Developer version so I took a closer look under C1 and still noticed it although not as bad. I'm using 5.01.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post

    Now Leica's tethered program is in beta so i don't want people to be mislead that this is final going out the door and they are working it but everyone has to have realistic expectations on what market this camera will serve. It's very good and I will be the first to tell you that but it's new and it needs to age as well.
    did the leica folks indicate that this was being worked on?? that there will be a better solution for tethered?? maybe I missed it but why did you not shoot tethered to the s2 with lightroom?

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by paulmoore View Post
    did the leica folks indicate that this was being worked on?? that there will be a better solution for tethered?? maybe I missed it but why did you not shoot tethered to the s2 with lightroom?
    Paul,

    The Leica Image Shuttle program (in beta - I used v0.9b two weeks ago) communicates with the camera and provides functionality to transfer images to any folder you specify on the host computer. Then, you can use LR or C1 to watch the folder for auto import.

    The Image Shuttle program also allows complete control of the camera from the computer (Aperture, Shutter, ISO, WB, focus, program mode, mirror lockup, etc.).

    I'm anxious to see what v1.0 looks like when it ships. Perhaps some of the current issues will be worked out.

    At our studio event last month, we shot over 700 images in 2-3 hours using the tethering program and LR. Everything went pretty smoothly, especially considering the beta status of the software and firmware.

    David
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by paulmoore View Post
    did the leica folks indicate that this was being worked on?? that there will be a better solution for tethered?? maybe I missed it but why did you not shoot tethered to the s2 with lightroom?
    Still very slow going to a hot folder but Leica IS working on it yes. We shot tethered in C1 for the P40 which got us all setup with lighting , exposures and such than made the lights drop 2/3 a stop when we used the S2 .We shot the P40+ at ISO 100 which is not it's base ISO which is actually 50. Preview time for the P40+ at full res is about 1.5 seconds to my MacBook Pro. In Sensor Plus mode almost instant. Personally anything longer than 2 seconds is unacceptable at this level of camera. Hopefully Leica will get there with there program.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Woody my personal believe as good as the Rodenstocks and Schnieders are rated I am not so sure they are worlds away from the Hassy, Rollie, Phase and leica lenses but that is certainly worth testing for sure. Sure there are some dogs we may leave on the porch but most of the modern glass we are all using is just damn good. Who among us besides the Phase shooters thought they where this good. Come on admit it folks , better than the reputation of the Mamiya name and that has been it's issue. The D glass is good maybe not up to the build standards of some but they produce. Okay maybe i am a little bias there but I'm not leaving any on the porch either. LOL

    Bottom line they are all good systems we just need to find the ones that work for you.
    Guy

    Can't fault your logic here and Mark, I never meant to imply that the Leica lenses were less than any of their counterparts i.e. Hassy, Mamiya etc. I was hoping that the Leicas would hold up against the Digarons etc so the need for a portable back for tech cameras is significantly less. Still might need the tech camera for swings, tilts etc but not just for being able to use the high quality lenses from Rodenstock and Schneider

    Woody

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Guess what is what I am driving at Woody is maybe with the 6 micron sensor this is the best we can see today. Now how well they do with a different sensor remains to be seen in the future. I don't know if we are at sensor limits or lens limits right now. My gut tells me sensor limits but heck I'm no engineer either and no offense don't wanna be. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Seitz View Post
    I'm running out the door now otherwise I'd post a crop, but it shows up in Noise_0005 and 0004 in the wood drawers just under the Mentadent bottle. It jumped out at me on the Raw Developer version so I took a closer look under C1 and still noticed it although not as bad. I'm using 5.01.
    I'd encourage anyone interested in this to go look at those files in 5.0.1.

    In this tungsten light image At ISO800 (the last ISO for full resolution on the P40+) in the area of continuous deep red colored shadow you can see a very subtle change in color in the center. It is not a hard edge (definitely not a line).

    If your back was against the wall and you absolutely needed to use ISO800 at full resolution in tungsten light rather than turning on sensor+ or getting more light then this shot could be tweaked in about 10 seconds in color editor and copy-pasted to any/all shots from this scene to eliminate the very subtle color change.

    This is the worst possible case:
    - ISO800 (last ISO for full res capture)
    - Tungsten light (not much blue light)
    - Dark red subject (not much blue content)
    - Continuous tone subject (easy to see very slight changes in color)

    In this worst case scenario the back shows a VERY slight color artifact which can be removed using built in tools in about 10 seconds if needed.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    We also have some cross daylight coming in from the right as well not as strong but certainly but there.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    While I primarily use LR for S2 file processing, C1 does have the advantage of being able to use a true ICC camera profile vs. the proprietary Adobe DCR file. Using my EyeOne XT system and a little tweaking, I've developed a camera profile for use in C1. I shot the Color Checker SG test target (140 color patches) using the latest S2 firmware in a controlled studio environment.

    Feel free to download it here: LeicaR8-Leica S2 v2 (DF 1209).icc

    The reason for calling it LeicaR8 is so that C1 will show it under the profile options in the quick tab. If I tried calling it LiecaS2.... it won't show, most likely due to there being no official support for S2 DNG files. To install, locate the DSLR folder under Color Profiles and drop it in. Restart C1 and navigate to Leica -> R8 -> Leica S2 v2 (DF 1209). I find it useful to right-click, do a clone variant, and apply the profile to the new variant. That way you can see the differences more easily.

    The result should be fairly neutral skin tones, much improved sky, foliage, and primaries like red and yellow. Of course, I'd appreciate feedback, and I'm happy to work on variants for different tastes.

    Please note that this profile only addresses color of S2 files in C1 and does not address the maze pattern artifacts, specular color "sparkles", etc. that I've noticed (and Jack has mentioned in his piece above).

    David
    Oops. My hosting service decided to rename the profile when I published the link, making it a bit hard to use.

    Try this link instead:

    LeicaR8-Leica S2 v2 (DF 1209).icc

    David
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Everybody must be processing , got quiet around here. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Forgive me, I'm probably missing the obvious due to the fact that I haven't been following the progress and release of the S2 particularly closely, but why no DOF scales on the lenses? I noticed this on early release images of the lenses but imagined they were mock-ups rather than the finished product.

    Am I missing the obvious or are the lenses missing the obvious?

    Keith

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Looks like they are not there Keith. Great question
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Forgive me, I'm probably missing the obvious due to the fact that I haven't been following the progress and release of the S2 particularly closely, but why no DOF scales on the lenses? I noticed this on early release images of the lenses but imagined they were mock-ups rather than the finished product.

    Am I missing the obvious or are the lenses missing the obvious?

    Keith
    On a related note Leica's rep told me they are considering implementing a Hyperfocal mode (accessed in a way similar to M. Up right now) which would automatically place focus at the right hyperfocal location for the selected aperture. That could be a REALLY killer feature (assuming they do it, and assuming it works reliably) as Hyperfocal Focusing a high-end system, even with a DOF scale is error-prone and time consuming* (at least compared to pushing one button).

    If you are new to hyperfocal (many dSLR users are) see wikipedia.

    At first blush using the DOF scale to set hyperfocal distance is cakewalk, but the problem is that systems which have one set of lenses which can be used with multiple sensors. DOF and resolution are related so you any given DOF scale can only reference one resolution, and since digital back resolutions are always on their way up the lens manufacturers stay with referencing film for the DOF scale and the end-user has to translate that number into the equivalent for their digital back. In fact this is maybe why the S2 does not include DOF scales on the lenses (maybe not though - im speculating) as Leica intends to develop this as a line (moving into the future) and an S3 would not be able to use the S2 DOF scale for a lens (without the end user translating the numbers themselves).

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I wonder what the image circle is on those S2 lenses?
    The mount looks like there might be room hmmmm
    -bob

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