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Thread: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Some questions for Guy and Jack

    Hi Chaps,

    Having read everything there is to read on the S2, and having shot it side by side with my Phase gear for an hour or more, I end up with a check list of things I should know the answer to but don't and if you guys can help I'd really appreciate it!

    1) It was stated in the early puff that each individual lens's performance with regard to focus shift with stop-down was measured at the factory, with the information being stored on chip so that it could be transferred to each individual camera body, which would micro-adjust AF appropriately. This claim is now missing from the brochures. Do you have any idea if it was ever implemented?

    2) We know that you can't adjust exposure compensation without looking at the LCD but I can't work out, from the instruction book, when you are in A mode, how much (if any) warning is given in the VF. There's a plus-minus indicator but MR seems to e saying that is only active in M mode. There's also an over/underexposure warning bar with what looks like half stop markings to plus/minus 3 stops and my understanding is that this does not indicate how much compensation is set, it just shows you how much over or underexposure the meter is currently 'seeing' relative to whatever value is in the AE lock. ANy further ideas or comments here would be incredibly useful

    3) The 'jog wheel' selector switches, when pushed inwards and when the Mode dial is set to A, between A and P modes. In my shooting this was incredibly irritating because it was too easily activated unintentionally and I was told that shipping versions of the camera would have a lock on this wheel. Did the version you had have this?

    Thanks for any info!

    Tim

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    2 sec MLU for handheld shooting?
    Why not? frequency on movement slap, and hand are very different. It is important if you are going to 'blow up' for deatil; motion blur algorithms fix reasonably well, but mirror slap is messy.
    Actually 2s delay is a LOT simpler than switching on-off (esp w menu)

    But mostly is good for tripod, you are right.

    Victor

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    Re: Some questions for Guy and Jack

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Hi Chaps,

    Having read everything there is to read on the S2, and having shot it side by side with my Phase gear for an hour or more, I end up with a check list of things I should know the answer to but don't and if you guys can help I'd really appreciate it!

    1) It was stated in the early puff that each individual lens's performance with regard to focus shift with stop-down was measured at the factory, with the information being stored on chip so that it could be transferred to each individual camera body, which would micro-adjust AF appropriately. This claim is now missing from the brochures. Do you have any idea if it was ever implemented?
    I don't know either. What I can tell you is that when shooting the models outdoors in AF mode with apertures ranging from wide open to about f8, putting the AF crosshair on the eyes I nailed focus maybe 50% of the shots regardless of aperture -- nailed meaning the eye I focused on was actually in crisp focus. With the Phase DF body, I nailed it maybe more like 70%. I did not mention this in the review because I assume the difference was likely due to my greater level of experience using the Phase body.

    2) We know that you can't adjust exposure compensation without looking at the LCD but I can't work out, from the instruction book, when you are in A mode, how much (if any) warning is given in the VF. There's a plus-minus indicator but MR seems to e saying that is only active in M mode. There's also an over/underexposure warning bar with what looks like half stop markings to plus/minus 3 stops and my understanding is that this does not indicate how much compensation is set, it just shows you how much over or underexposure the meter is currently 'seeing' relative to whatever value is in the AE lock. Any further ideas or comments here would be incredibly useful
    I only noticed the bar-graph indicator visible in the VF in M mode, and I believe it was 1/3rd stop tics. As I said in one of my early posts, I suspect a firmware update could make this visible in Av or Tv modes for the exposure comp readout, but currently it isn't. I do recall a blinking 1/4000th when in Av mode and wide open, so I am thinking that is your overexposure warning.

    3) The 'jog wheel' selector switches, when pushed inwards and when the Mode dial is set to A, between A and P modes. In my shooting this was incredibly irritating because it was too easily activated unintentionally and I was told that shipping versions of the camera would have a lock on this wheel. Did the version you had have this?
    If it had it, we didn't find it, and our camera was still a Beta version firmware. We had the camera swap to P mode a few times and had to reset it to A mode. This is clearly a good fix for the shipping cameras. Very few pros will ever use P mode, and only occasionally use Tv mode. Av and M are common, and when we set them, we usually want them to stay put. One feature the Phase body has that is VERY useful, and perhaps Leica could implement it, is that when in M mode, if you press the AEL button and hold it for a second, Av mode kicks in and sets an Av exposure, release and you are back to M mode. This gets you to a relatively accurate exposure in a hurry, then lets you tweak manually from there.
    Jack
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  4. #254
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Some questions for Guy and Jack

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Hi Chaps,

    Having read everything there is to read on the S2, and having shot it side by side with my Phase gear for an hour or more, I end up with a check list of things I should know the answer to but don't and if you guys can help I'd really appreciate it!

    1) It was stated in the early puff that each individual lens's performance with regard to focus shift with stop-down was measured at the factory, with the information being stored on chip so that it could be transferred to each individual camera body, which would micro-adjust AF appropriately. This claim is now missing from the brochures. Do you have any idea if it was ever implemented?

    I'm sure it is Tim but again maybe just not something they are using in the marketing materials right now. I will forward these questions on though

    2) We know that you can't adjust exposure compensation without looking at the LCD but I can't work out, from the instruction book, when you are in A mode, how much (if any) warning is given in the VF. There's a plus-minus indicator but MR seems to e saying that is only active in M mode. There's also an over/underexposure warning bar with what looks like half stop markings to plus/minus 3 stops and my understanding is that this does not indicate how much compensation is set, it just shows you how much over or underexposure the meter is currently 'seeing' relative to whatever value is in the AE lock. ANy further ideas or comments here would be incredibly useful


    Sorry bud never used it in testing but I do believe there is a exp. comp warning in finder. We really focused on the image side since our time was short with it


    3) The 'jog wheel' selector switches, when pushed inwards and when the Mode dial is set to A, between A and P modes. In my shooting this was incredibly irritating because it was too easily activated unintentionally and I was told that shipping versions of the camera would have a lock on this wheel. Did the version you had have this?


    No lock when Jack and I did this review

    Thanks for any info!

    Tim
    I will forward these questions on this morning. Should have answer soon on it.

    E-mail has been sent. Rather get it all from the horses mouth as they say
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Thanks Jack, that is very useful and helpful!

    The 'warning' I referred to was not an over or under exposure warning but an warning reminder that exposure comp was set. In the Phase bodies, Canon 5D and even M9 you do get an indication that comp is set, the ability to see how much is set, and the ability to change it, without removing the camera from the eye - which I find pretty vital!

    Best

    T

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Some questions for Guy and Jack

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I will forward these questions on this morning. Should have answer soon on it
    Thank you Guy!

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks Jack, that is very useful and helpful!

    The 'warning' I referred to was not an over or under exposure warning but an warning reminder that exposure comp was set. In the Phase bodies, Canon 5D and even M9 you do get an indication that comp is set, the ability to see how much is set, and the ability to change it, without removing the camera from the eye - which I find pretty vital!

    Best

    T
    Damn Tim from memory talking with Leica on it . I think there is a warning, but I don't want to guess to much here. Rather it be accurate info.

    We should also keep in mind very much the manual could change in a heartbeat with ongoing firmware updates.


    Case in point and I was not involved in the M9 but from the time it started shipping to the time it hit the streets there was a update and I warned everyone to update upon arrival. Some cams had it but some did not. Reality is firmware is being worked on constantly and i know that from helping them on the M8 so the manual i would look at as a guide only not hard fact at this time.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I agree. And just think what we'd all be saying if Leica hadn't weatherproofed it!

    ,
    Boy do I agree with this.

    Try to remember back in the M8's early days how much print was spent on Leica's stupid decision to omit weather sealing? So I think Jack is spot on.......what if Leica failed to deliver it from their pro system?

    Woody

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    Re: Some questions for Guy and Jack

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I don't know either. What I can tell you is that when shooting the models outdoors in AF mode with apertures ranging from wide open to about f8, putting the AF crosshair on the eyes I nailed focus maybe 50% of the shots regardless of aperture -- nailed meaning the eye I focused on was actually in crisp focus. With the Phase DF body, I nailed it maybe more like 70%. I did not mention this in the review because I assume the difference was likely due to my greater level of experience using the Phase body.
    Ouch! I wonder what the % would be with your 1Ds mkIII Jack? I know from wedding shooting with my lowly original 5D that f1.8 on a 85mm nails focus 95% outdoors (much less indoors in low light), 50% is a joke, not that impressed with 70% either to be honest, who has the time and patience to sift through checking focus on a time critical commercial shoot? I know well enough the fustration of a great moment captured but the focus is nowhere near, now I can get away with it to an extent with wedding work. I couldn't with commercial...
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Boy do I agree with this.

    Try to remember back in the M8's early days how much print was spent on Leica's stupid decision to omit weather sealing? So I think Jack is spot on.......what if Leica failed to deliver it from their pro system?

    Woody
    and the M9?---)))
    peter

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    Re: Some questions for Guy and Jack

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Ouch! I wonder what the % would be with your 1Ds mkIII Jack? I know from wedding shooting with my lowly original 5D that f1.8 on a 85mm nails focus 95% outdoors (much less indoors in low light), 50% is a joke, not that impressed with 70% either to be honest, who has the time and patience to sift through checking focus on a time critical commercial shoot? I know well enough the fustration of a great moment captured but the focus is nowhere near, now I can get away with it to an extent with wedding work. I couldn't with commercial...
    Ben, I should qualify this better -- Virtually ALL of the images I shot would appear laser sharp at 8x10 or even 11x14 from these MF cams. What I was referring to was the perfect, on the eyeball focus -- which as you can see from the eyeball crops I showed on the first page, these 6 micron MF backs have very little DoF even at f11. Were I shooting the 135/2 wide open on my 1Ds3, I doubt I'd have any more than 70% of my shots at precise eyeball focus with it either, though probably 95% of them would be perfectly acceptable as 8x10 prints...
    Jack
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Why not? frequency on movement slap, and hand are very different. It is important if you are going to 'blow up' for deatil; motion blur algorithms fix reasonably well, but mirror slap is messy.
    I know what it is about. But 2 seconds is everlasting when shooting handheld. The trick with Hasselblad's shutter latency is that it is still almost instant but prevents mirror shake (to some extend).

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    Re: Some questions for Guy and Jack

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Hi Chaps,

    Having read everything there is to read on the S2, and having shot it side by side with my Phase gear for an hour or more, I end up with a check list of things I should know the answer to but don't and if you guys can help I'd really appreciate it!
    Tim,

    I'd be happy to answer all these questions. I was extremely busy today, so this is the first chance I've had to even check in online today.

    1) It was stated in the early puff that each individual lens's performance with regard to focus shift with stop-down was measured at the factory, with the information being stored on chip so that it could be transferred to each individual camera body, which would micro-adjust AF appropriately. This claim is now missing from the brochures. Do you have any idea if it was ever implemented?
    This has been implemented. Every lens is individually calibrated and measured in the factory (both for aperture and distance). I personally saw the testing apparatus in the factory back in August. I do need to follow up with my friends at Leica to see if this particular version of firmware is making full use of these data points.

    2) We know that you can't adjust exposure compensation without looking at the LCD but I can't work out, from the instruction book, when you are in A mode, how much (if any) warning is given in the VF. There's a plus-minus indicator but MR seems to e saying that is only active in M mode. There's also an over/underexposure warning bar with what looks like half stop markings to plus/minus 3 stops and my understanding is that this does not indicate how much compensation is set, it just shows you how much over or underexposure the meter is currently 'seeing' relative to whatever value is in the AE lock. ANy further ideas or comments here would be incredibly useful
    There is a pyramid-shaped "+/-" warning sign in the viewfinder (lower left). This is only illuminated when you have EV comp dialed in. Also, the top OLED shows either a "-" or "+" to the right of the mode, indicating if there is negative or positive EV comp dialed in. For instance, if I was in aperture priority with +1 EV, the OLED would read "A+". And, on the rear LCD, the EV comp amount shows in the top left Camera quadrant.

    You are right, currently, the exp meter display in manual does not indicate any EV comp. There have been suggestions to use this display in program modes (P, A, T) to show the current EV setting, but it has not been implemented yet.

    3) The 'jog wheel' selector switches, when pushed inwards and when the Mode dial is set to A, between A and P modes. In my shooting this was incredibly irritating because it was too easily activated unintentionally and I was told that shipping versions of the camera would have a lock on this wheel. Did the version you had have this?
    This is something that I immediately noticed in my first shooting with the camera and one of my first comments to Leica. I did get used to it and only encountered the problem early on, but I still think it would be useful to have a lock on changing modes, or perhaps requiring a 3-sec push and hold rather than a simple click. Along the same lines, I also noticed that in M (or A) mode, hitting the thumbwheel accidentally resulted in my aperture getting knocked out of whack a few times. A lock function, similar to Nikon's would be great here.


    Thanks for any info!

    Tim
    My pleasure.

    David
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I am comparing the S2 against what I already own and use. What I already own and use has its strengths and limitations.

    The S2 is not a Hasselblad and it is not a CaNikon. The more I think about this system - the more it is seriously flawed from a comparative and relative point of view. The only thing I like about it - is the fact that is made by Leica - and I want Leica to succeed.

    For a serious user of these MFD systems the best acessory is a tripod and or lights - not a different body.

    If you arent into tripod shooting - forget about 40+ megapixels shot at ISO 100

    If you want high ISO - get a 35mm system - the truth is that all these pushed files in MFD are crapola.

    I dont want or need high ISO in a MFD back.

    As for focus accuracy ( another dirty little secret) you need fat light/strobes and shooting at f8-16 to gt everything you want in focus. If you want POP - be really clever with a Zeiss 110 or a Fujiblad 100/2.2
    OR do yourselves a favour and look at any M lens or a Nocti.

    so much noise in this forum spent talking abotu what this or that system CANT do - instead of talking abotu what these systems CAN do.

    truth is NOONE has put a JPEG on the net showing how ANY MFD system can make a better pic than a CaNikonSony @ 20 mgapixels.

    truth is tehse 35mm systems can do a hell of a lOT ofthings that MFD systems wil NEVER be able to do.

    Pete

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    Re: Some questions for Guy and Jack

    (snip)
    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Tim,
    There is a pyramid-shaped "+/-" warning sign in the viewfinder (lower left). This is only illuminated when you have EV comp dialed in. Also, the top OLED shows either a "-" or "+" to the right of the mode, indicating if there is negative or positive EV comp dialed in. For instance, if I was in aperture priority with +1 EV, the OLED would read "A+". And, on the rear LCD, the EV comp amount shows in the top left Camera quadrant.

    You are right, currently, the exp meter display in manual does not indicate any EV comp. There have been suggestions to use this display in program modes (P, A, T) to show the current EV setting, but it has not been implemented yet.

    My pleasure.

    David
    David, thank you for that, it is very useful though I am surprised that much of it isn't made clearer in the manual and brochure buy hey ho I guess a lot of this stuff is not fixed til the fat lady ships.

    Just to try and bottom out this issue of exposure comp setting and indication: I'm not after what is indicated in the LCD or the OLED, just very specifically in the VF and mainly in what happens there in A mode. Can you confirm that in that mode, the +/- indicator lights up if comp has been set? If so, does it say +/- or does it specify which of plus or minus is set? And is it your personal feeling, seeing the bar indicator and the way it is able to convey information, that it could be used after a FW update, to show both the direction and quantum of any comp that has been set?

    My ideal would be to be able to program the jog dial's 'click' so that instead of switching me into a mode I will never use (such as P) it can be programmed to set either ISO or Comp, and with the resulting value being shown in real time in the VF.

    Thanks again for your help David: I would like to make a decision on all this before the end of the year because our sales taxes are rising as of 1st Jan and realistically, with dealerships closing over Christmas and so on, that means more or less making my mind up by tomorrow...

    Best

    Tim

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Does the decision really depend on the exposure compensation being shown in the viewfinder, Tim? It seems a strange thing to let it hinge on, and a strange thing that you would rush into such a costly decision. Can you not place the order now, to get this year's price, and then cancel the order if Leica doesn't promise the right things?

    Would you keep the P45+ and tech camera? There is no wide angle and no T/S lens for the Leica yet, and who knows when they will finally ship. I guess you don't need tethering, so at least that aspect of the Leica doesn't affect you.

    If you do buy, and you need someone standing around on your shoots saying "yes, master" and holding the S2 for you, just drop me a note This offer is not valid for the Phamiya.
    Last edited by carstenw; 20th December 2009 at 03:39.
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Does the decision really depend on the exposure compensation being shown in the viewfinder, Tim? It seems a strange thing to let it hinge on, and a strange thing that you would rush into such a costly decision. Can you not place the order now, to get this year's price, and then cancel the order if Leica doesn't promise the right things?

    Would you keep the P45+ and tech camera? There is no wide angle and no T/S lens for the Leica yet, and who knows when they will finally ship. I guess you don't need tethering, so at least that aspect of the Leica doesn't affect you.

    If you do buy, and you need someone standing around on your shoots saying "yes, master" and holding the S2 for you, just drop me a note This offer is not valid for the Phamiya.
    The prices are going up?

    -Marc

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    The taxes in Britain are apparently going up, and hence the prices. Still, even if the taxes are going from 16% to 19% (British tax to EU tax, I think), and even if the total price of Tim's initial system is €30.000, that is still only €900 Euro more. Enough to want to make a firm decision a little earlier, but not enough to want to rush into anything.
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Well truth be told I upgraded to the 40+ right in the middle of this review. One that decision was already made to increase the value of my system from the P30+ and like Tim i wanted also to get my tax deduction in and talking to Dave at Capture Integration they have never been busier than right now at the end of the year. So totally understand wanting to get that in and I also got my DF body in yesterday as well. Obviously this is one part of my equation the other is the P40+ is maybe one of the best back out there at the moment at a good price and I certainly improved my system over my P30+. Now if Leica was ready maybe the conversation to myself would have gone on longer but two lenses made that decision very easy for me. Also to switch systems is just too costly.
    The other is looking at this review and shooting the S2 is I saw no clear cut advantage over my existing system . It's a great system with some additional feature sets that are very nice. LCD and two cards plus a few others but this is the category of folks that will be hard to turn the existing MF shooters. Coming in new to MF , moving up from 35mm and those that have a very very small investment to start like ZD users this may make more sense. But the transfer folks it is going to be tough. For a one system shooter like me there is just not enough out in the S2 that can make me switch right now.
    Tim you have a tough decision and I wish you luck in that
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    The taxes in Britain are apparently going up, and hence the prices. Still, even if the taxes are going from 16% to 19% (British tax to EU tax, I think), and even if the total price of Tim's initial system is 30.000, that is still only 900 Euro more. Enough to want to make a firm decision a little earlier, but not enough to want to rush into anything.
    Carsten forget the tax for a second the most important part is not rushing into anything in MF. It is a calculated decision based on a crap load of needs and wants for the individual shooter. That alone requires a lot of real homework and real facts.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    You're right Guy. But Carsten, if I do make the decision in the next day or so, it won't have been a rush in: I have used the camera enough to have evaluated pretty much every aspect of the decision and now know that I would like to try the system out for a while, probably at first in parallel with my Phase gear. If I list all the relative advantages of the two systems then for my particular use, the S2 comes out ahead by a certain margin which is large enough to make me give it a go but not so large as to be a no-brainer. The saving due to the upcoming tax hike is about 600 but there are 1st Jan price hikes too so the saving over a two lens system is over a thousand pounds which is enough to make me want to not dally, and to collate all the info I have.

    Given that the degree of margin (for my use) of the S2 over the Phase kit is not huge, some of the apparently less important details do matter. I wrote in a post I made about my trial morning with the S2 something that I still think is important:

    "There will, before final release, be locks on the top rotating dial and on the thumbwheel. Were it not for this assurance I'd have got my P60 this afternoon because that pesky thumbwheel has a mind of its own and is constantly switching from A to Pshift mode without my wanting it to!"

    My understanding from Dave's helpful post above is that though the product manager told me at the time that such a lock would be provided before shipping, this hasn't been done. That seriously shrinks my margin of preference because the dial is badly designed, is actuated too easily, and that costs you shots. I suspect that the spate of bad exposures that Jack and Guy experienced are down to this one factor.

    As for the question of exposure comp info in the viewfinder: its absence betokens a lack of understanding about the process of using cameras such as this. I use exposure comp a fair amount and like all humans, I will set it, use it, put the camera down and forget that it's set, then grab the camera and lose a frame or a few frames. Not having such basic info where it is needed is just plain daft IMHO and MR over at LL thinks so too. It is not in itself a total deal killer but it is a nail in the coffin of the slim advantage I refer to above.

    Finally, the issue of lens calibrations being delivered to the body was a real USP for the S2 and one of the things that most attracted me to the original spec. No more lost shots due to focus shift etc, no need to do the calibrations and adjustments oneself. Just the purity of picking up a camera that delivers, first time.

    So this small list of factors, between them, do matter - to me at least - because these sorts of decisions are often made on the marginal details!

    Best

    t

  22. #272
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    You're right Guy. But Carsten, if I do make the decision in the next day or so, it won't have been a rush in: I have used the camera enough to have evaluated pretty much every aspect of the decision and now know that I would like to try the system out for a while, probably at first in parallel with my Phase gear. If I list all the relative advantages of the two systems then for my particular use, the S2 comes out ahead by a certain margin which is large enough to make me give it a go but not so large as to be a no-brainer. The saving due to the upcoming tax hike is about 600 but there are 1st Jan price hikes too so the saving over a two lens system is over a thousand pounds which is enough to make me want to not dally, and to collate all the info I have.

    Given that the degree of margin (for my use) of the S2 over the Phase kit is not huge, some of the apparently less important details do matter. I wrote in a post I made about my trial morning with the S2 something that I still think is important:

    "There will, before final release, be locks on the top rotating dial and on the thumbwheel. Were it not for this assurance I'd have got my P60 this afternoon because that pesky thumbwheel has a mind of its own and is constantly switching from A to Pshift mode without my wanting it to!"

    My understanding from Dave's helpful post above is that though the product manager told me at the time that such a lock would be provided before shipping, this hasn't been done. That seriously shrinks my margin of preference because the dial is badly designed, is actuated too easily, and that costs you shots. I suspect that the spate of bad exposures that Jack and Guy experienced are down to this one factor.

    As for the question of exposure comp info in the viewfinder: its absence betokens a lack of understanding about the process of using cameras such as this. I use exposure comp a fair amount and like all humans, I will set it, use it, put the camera down and forget that it's set, then grab the camera and lose a frame or a few frames. Not having such basic info where it is needed is just plain daft IMHO and MR over at LL thinks so too. It is not in itself a total deal killer but it is a nail in the coffin of the slim advantage I refer to above.

    Finally, the issue of lens calibrations being delivered to the body was a real USP for the S2 and one of the things that most attracted me to the original spec. No more lost shots due to focus shift etc, no need to do the calibrations and adjustments oneself. Just the purity of picking up a camera that delivers, first time.

    So this small list of factors, between them, do matter - to me at least - because these sorts of decisions are often made on the marginal details!

    Best

    t
    tim,
    so you are buying into sa two lenses system? or did they give you any guarantees about the timing of the lens line up?
    peter

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    tim,
    so you are buying into sa two lenses system? or did they give you any guarantees about the timing of the lens line up?
    peter
    That's what I am trying to establish from them... I don't want a dodo system where the promised wides and TS lenses never materialise...

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    So Tim, you expect Leica to tell you that they're not going to deliver on their lens promises, while continuing to promise the rest of us that they will? I think that's unlikely.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    That's what I am trying to establish from them... I don't want a dodo system where the promised wides and TS lenses never materialise...
    tim, i do understand your point entirely. but please...let me be privy to that information once you have it...---))))
    peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    So Tim, you expect Leica to tell you that they're not going to deliver on their lens promises, while continuing to promise the rest of us that they will? I think that's unlikely.
    No Stephen, that isn't what I expect. The world not being made in black and white, I expect merely an acceptable shade of grey...

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    The world not being made in black and white, I expect merely an acceptable shade of grey...
    it's these shades of grey that make MF so unpredictable. I wouldn't trust any announcement of neither MF company. But especially not of a company introducing a new system.
    But, of course, that's totally up to you.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    it's these shades of grey that make MF so unpredictable. I wouldn't trust any announcement of neither MF company. But especially not of a company introducing a new system.
    But, of course, that's totally up to you.
    I know that, but there are degrees of likelihood that in the end one has to try to assess. One of the many reasons I originally chose the Phamiya rather than the Hassy system was because of the then upcoming tilt/shift lens. That one disappeared discreetly from their website some time ago though I did briefly lay my hands on a truly appallingly bad pre-production copy... and Phase and my dealer between them did supply me with a heavily discounted Cambo setup when I whined about the whole episode... so I don't expect people to know what the truth will eventually be let alone tell it transparently but I do expect a certain amount of give and take.
    Last edited by tashley; 21st December 2009 at 03:48.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I know that, but there are degrees of likelihood that in the end one has to try to assess. One of the many reasons I originally chose the Phamiya rather than the Hassy system was because of the then upcoming tilt/shift lens. That one disappeared discreetly from their website some time ago though I did briefly lay my hands on a truly appallingly bad pre-production copy...
    I see.
    As to the T/S lens I think it will be one of the last lenses they are going to produce (in the video-interview with the lens designer guy of Leica made by M. Reichmann and published on Lum.Landscape he didn't even wanted to confirm plans of a TS lens*). Anyway, I wouldn't expect too much from a TS lens in conjunction with an offset microlenses sensor. Admittedly on the S2 the lens is not as close to the sensor as LF lenses on a view camera. Still movements will be limited as vignetting will be introduced quite easy.
    Maybe I'm not right. But if the TS lens is important for you I would at least wait until the lens ships.

    * on the S2 website there are 4 lenses... no TS lens: http://s.leica-camera.com/leica-s-system/
    Last edited by thomas; 21st December 2009 at 03:56.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    As it turns out I almost never need tilts but sometimes need shifts so my strategy is not to assume the lens will happen but to hope for it and plan, if it doesn't, to use either my Phase gear if I still have it or get a TS lens for my Canon gear.

    More important for me is that, as others have observed, Leica's real strength in lens design and production should show itself at the wider end, where Phase and Hassy are less strong. Taking the original S2 press release as my guide

    "The lens range will consist of 24mm ultrawide, 30mm tilt-and-shift, 35mm wide, 70mm standard, 30-90mm standard zoom, 100mm short tele, 120mm macro, 180mm telephoto, and 350mm telephoto optics (all of which will apparently incorporate leaf shutters)."

    I hope to hear that the 24mm at least is pretty much a certainty...

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    More important for me is that, as others have observed, Leica's real strength in lens design and production should show itself at the wider end, where Phase and Hassy are less strong. Taking the original S2 press release as my guide

    Two very misguided comments. I trust a press release as much as i trust my dog won't eat a steak off the counter and that is any press release. The word SHOULD is no guarantee of anything , not to knock Leica by any stretch here but assumptions will bury you. Also I disagree on Phase and Hassy wides. Compared to WHAT and WHO MAKES them better in the DSLR form factor.

    Tim you want the S2 than buy the S2 and get it over with and trust Leica to deliver. Your hedging like crazy here and making assumptions and statements that first are maybe not real or could be shot down by a single arrow . We have thousands of Hassy, Sinar, Phase, Contax lens users that are extremely happy with there lenses. If your not than move on. It really is that simple. Your looking for greener pastures the only way to know if it exists is buy it. Sorry to be so blunt and brutally honest here but you are running around in circles. Please don't take offense here we are all trying to help you but there are a lot of happy users out here regardless of the s2 or not.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    More important for me is that, as others have observed, Leica's real strength in lens design and production should show itself at the wider end, where Phase and Hassy are less strong. Taking the original S2 press release as my guide

    Two very misguided comments. I trust a press release as much as i trust my dog won't eat a steak off the counter and that is any press release. The word SHOULD is no guarantee of anything , not to knock Leica by any stretch here but assumptions will bury you. Also I disagree on Phase and Hassy wides. Compared to WHAT and WHO MAKES them better in the DSLR form factor.

    Tim you want the S2 than buy the S2 and get it over with and trust Leica to deliver. Your hedging like crazy here and making assumptions and statements that first are maybe not real or could be shot down by a single arrow . We have thousands of Hassy, Sinar, Phase, Contax lens users that are extremely happy with there lenses. If your not than move on. It really is that simple. Your looking for greener pastures the only way to know if it exists is buy it. Sorry to be so blunt and brutally honest here but you are running around in circles. Please don't take offense here we are all trying to help you but there are a lot of happy users out here regardless of the s2 or not.
    Well Guy, I appreciate the help. Thank you.

    Tim

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I hope you took that the right way. I know sometimes i write a little over the top but I want you to be careful no matter which direction you turn. We have seen things announced that never came to light. Some things are just on wish lists if you know what I mean. Not saying anything bad about Leica here , which i do like them very much but the difference between real and supposed to be is sometimes a very fine line in the sand.

    End of the day is a liked the S2 but i want to see stuff before I leap but that is me.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    As it turns out I almost never need tilts but sometimes need shifts so my strategy is not to assume the lens will happen but to hope for it and plan, if it doesn't, to use either my Phase gear if I still have it or get a TS lens for my Canon gear.

    More important for me is that, as others have observed, Leica's real strength in lens design and production should show itself at the wider end, where Phase and Hassy are less strong. Taking the original S2 press release as my guide

    "The lens range will consist of 24mm ultrawide, 30mm tilt-and-shift, 35mm wide, 70mm standard, 30-90mm standard zoom, 100mm short tele, 120mm macro, 180mm telephoto, and 350mm telephoto optics (all of which will apparently incorporate leaf shutters)."

    I hope to hear that the 24mm at least is pretty much a certainty...
    Hmmmm... I have to say Tim, it sounds like perhaps you are buying on the come; buying into a system because of what you hope will happen. That hope may be based on past experience, but with a completely different platform that only happens to be from the same manufacturer, not what is actually known or proven.

    I think the only safe assumption here is that *IF* Leica builds it, it should be very good. But buying something based on what you hope they will produce sounds like a good set-up for a big let-down. And there are only 4 S lenses listed on the website at present, with no mention of what may be delivered in the future and no mention of a 24 or any TS lenses or any zoom...

    My .02 only,

    PS: Have you tried the Mamiya 50 shift lens? Generally excellent performer, though it is an all manual lens. FWIW only...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    As it turns out I almost never need tilts but sometimes need shifts so my strategy is not to assume the lens will happen but to hope for it and plan, if it doesn't, to use either my Phase gear if I still have it or get a TS lens for my Canon gear.

    More important for me is that, as others have observed, Leica's real strength in lens design and production should show itself at the wider end, where Phase and Hassy are less strong. Taking the original S2 press release as my guide

    "The lens range will consist of 24mm ultrawide, 30mm tilt-and-shift, 35mm wide, 70mm standard, 30-90mm standard zoom, 100mm short tele, 120mm macro, 180mm telephoto, and 350mm telephoto optics (all of which will apparently incorporate leaf shutters)."

    I hope to hear that the 24mm at least is pretty much a certainty...
    tim,
    i do happen to disagree. my HCD 28mm + Phocus lens corrections work marvellously. in fact rather close to what the Rodenstock 28mm apo sironar does.
    peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I am pretty sure that Leica has got the message from prospective buyers that they must have a wide angle (e. g. 24mm) and a T/S lens to make the system appealing. As a result I think they have shifted priorities in their lens development in that direction. I don't know anything for a fact and don't have any insider knowledge to support my assumption. However, this assumption is based on reading between the lines on the amswers to my inquiries to more than one Leica person regarding availability of the 30-90mm zoom. Originally, it was to be available soon after release of the S2 - now I'm told it is far down the list of priorities and presumably behind the wide angle lenses.

    Please take this information with a grain of salt, but this is what I have concluded and that is coming from someone who really wanted the 30-90mm as their first lens for the S2.

    Mark

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    It would have been a great lens to open with for sure.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    As it turns out I almost never need tilts but sometimes need shifts so my strategy is not to assume the lens will happen but to hope for it and plan, if it doesn't, to use either my Phase gear if I still have it or get a TS lens for my Canon gear.

    More important for me is that, as others have observed, Leica's real strength in lens design and production should show itself at the wider end, where Phase and Hassy are less strong. Taking the original S2 press release as my guide

    "The lens range will consist of 24mm ultrawide, 30mm tilt-and-shift, 35mm wide, 70mm standard, 30-90mm standard zoom, 100mm short tele, 120mm macro, 180mm telephoto, and 350mm telephoto optics (all of which will apparently incorporate leaf shutters)."

    I hope to hear that the 24mm at least is pretty much a certainty...
    Well I think - no I know - that in principal Leica is famous for strong wides. And I actually do not doubt that they will deliver finally also for the S System.

    Point is that you can buy Hasselblad or Phase wides, which are both extremely good. I can personally speak for the Hasselblad HCD 28 which delivers stellar results. I doubt that Leica can top this - really I doubt. And if they top it, then with exorbitantly higher pricing and availability in how many years?

    If you want to work today, then go for what is available today - or in near future, if you have lot of time and are not sure what to buy, then you can wait anyway, but speculations will not bring you anywhere

    My advice - buy a system which is available today, work with it, enjoy it and then in 2-3 years, when the Leica S System lineup will be complete, then go for it. Or maybe you do not need or like it any longer because you became so close friend with another MFD system.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I know a lot of folks shun zooms and think they give up a lot of IQ, but for the S2, as I said from the start, a 30-90 zoom should have been one of the first lenses out of the gate, given the somewhat drawn out timetable of lens releases. Since they are selling everything separately anyway, for a new system that tends to mimic a 35mm DSLR, the zoom would be a big draw, I am sure, except maybe the probable cost.

    The superwide (24mm) would be another first choice for many folks, except maybe the supposed fashion shooters that this almost system was originally targeting ;-) Hell, they should have had ALL the lenses ready to go at launch, and stop dicking around with rumors, maybe releases, changes in order of release, etc. (My opinion.)

    LJ

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by LJL View Post
    Hell, they should have had ALL the lenses ready to go at launch, and stop dicking around with rumors, maybe releases, changes in order of release, etc. (My opinion.)

    LJ
    This is the real point (in my opinion). At least four lenses available with the body at launch.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Well I can't afford 4 lenses at launch so that doesn't bother me, but I can see where it would be important to others.
    Last edited by Mark Gowin; 21st December 2009 at 11:38. Reason: Corrected typo

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
    Well I can't afford 4 lenses at launch so that doesn't bother me, but I can see where it would be important to others.
    I wasn't suggesting that everyone would want four lenses to start, but it's not likely that all would want the same focal lengths either. But more importantly, there would be some confidence in knowing that it really is a "system" capable of expansion as soon as needed.

    Just a little "Monday morning quarterbacking". I'm not interested in the S2 for personal use (as it is currently presented), so my opinion is worth even less than normal. It is interesting to watch the business elements of this process though.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Tim, if you decide to go for the S2 I would try and press Leica for a commitment that you will be at or near the top of the list when new lenses do come out. I'm speculating here, but they are likely to be in short supply for a while.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I'm curious to find out which versions of CS or non-CS lenses will end up selling the best to S2 customers.

    Originally, I had planned to buy the CS versions. But am starting to lean away from leaf shutters at the moment...

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Hmmmm... I have to say Tim, it sounds like perhaps you are buying on the come; buying into a system because of what you hope will happen. That hope may be based on past experience, but with a completely different platform that only happens to be from the same manufacturer, not what is actually known or proven.

    ..
    PS: Have you tried the Mamiya 50 shift lens? Generally excellent performer, though it is an all manual lens. FWIW only...
    And when were they to come out?
    the leaf shutter lenses
    the wide?
    the 300+ telephoto?

    oh, BTW I am NOT talking about the S2...
    just remembering some of the posts here about the Phamyia lenses...

    Tim, go for it!
    as a minimum, you'll get fantastic bragging rights...
    and if you don't like it maybe I'll buy it from you

    Regards
    Victor

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    "Tim, go for it!
    as a minimum, you'll get fantastic bragging rights..."

    Finally, some advice that makes sense. If you're looking for a camera that will give you bragging rights, the S2 is certainly for you. The only question is whether to buy it now or wait for the Hermes collectible version.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    I wasn't suggesting that everyone would want four lenses to start, but it's not likely that all would want the same focal lengths either.
    Good point. I'd only want one focal length, but how many others could work with only a 350mm lens?

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Good point. I'd only want one focal length, but how many others could work with only a 350mm lens?
    And I would think that a 1.4x or 1.7x extender might be on your list as well, Doug. That 350 won't have the reach you're used to on the larger S2 sensor.
    Last edited by Dale Allyn; 21st December 2009 at 20:52.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Totally agree here they do need to come up with a 1.4 like the did on the R system which was extremely good BTW. This way the 180 and 350 could use it. Phase needs one also, pretty sure Hassy has a 1.7.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Totally agree here they do need to come up with a 1.4 like the did on the R system which was extremely good BTW. This way the 180 and 350 could use it. Phase needs one also, pretty sure Hassy has a 1.7.
    Yes, I have and use the HC 1.7X which is pretty well corrected and also is recognized by the Software with further corrections.

    It works on the AF HC 300/4.5 to become an effective 510mm, but renders the lens manual focus only due to the fact it becomes a f/7.65 max aperture. Thankfully, the H camera's viewfinder is so big and bright it is not an issue to manual focus.

    When the HC 1.7X is used with the HC 210/4 it becomes a 360mm f/6.8 ... but oddly retains full AF ability even though effectively a f/6.8 max aperture.

    I wish for a 1.4X for the 300/4.5 from Hassey to provide a 420mm with a f/6.3 max aperture ... which, if the 210 is any indication, would retain full AF ability.

    -Marc

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