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Thread: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

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    Senior Member doug's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    And I would think that a 1.4x or 1.7x extender might be on your list as well, Doug. That 350 won't have the reach you're used to on the larger S2 sensor.
    Yup a 1.4x or so would be very nearly essential for me. The 350 by itself on the S2 would have the same field of view as a 280 on an R10 or SL, ordinarily about the shortest focal length that would be useful to me.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Doug your just going to have to go into super stealth mode. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Guy, do you know of any possible advantages to owning the central-shutter lenses other than flash sync? Is it possible that they might have a hand-held advantage at slower shutter speeds? Just wondering, I've never owned a system with a shutter choice before. Thanks

    In the review, you stated that the CS lenses might add some weight. I'm trying to decide if it's worth the extra expense and possible weight to use CS lenses. I will mostly be using HMI and tungsten for future shoots and probably won't need the flash sync capabilities. Although, it may be a good feature to have on reserve "just in case"...still deciding...

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Totally agree here they do need to come up with a 1.4 like the did on the R system which was extremely good BTW. This way the 180 and 350 could use it. Phase needs one also, pretty sure Hassy has a 1.7.
    Yeah, definitely agree that so does Mamiya/Phase, like yesterday! I would actually be fine with a killer 1.5x ...
    Jack
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    Guy, do you know of any possible advantages to owning the central-shutter lenses other than flash sync?
    I'd say exposure of the sensor plane is more even than with a focal plane shutter...

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike M View Post
    Guy, do you know of any possible advantages to owning the central-shutter lenses other than flash sync? Is it possible that they might have a hand-held advantage at slower shutter speeds? Just wondering, I've never owned a system with a shutter choice before. Thanks
    Theoretically, a leaf shutter generates less directional vibration than a focal plane shutter. Problem is that focal plane shutters are now made of very lightweight materials so have little mass and are very well damped hence shutter shake really isn't the issue. The bigger issue for MF cameras was mirror-slap and also the need for the light curtain which had to be opened and shut for film -- to view through a leaf-shutter lens, you need the lens open and the film blocked off. The light-leak issue went away with digital, and so could then the light curtain -- and likely why the last few Hassy H bodies and the latest Phase/Mamiya DF body won't take film backs. So the main trouble area remaining is mirror-slap, and it appears that Hassy and Phase/Mamiya have improved that significantly in the latest bodies too.

    So back to shutters. In a perfectly controlled situation, I would expect that mirror slap is going to be more detrimental than FP shutter shake, so my guess at this point is we won't see a huge motion advantage to leaf shutters.

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I'd say exposure of the sensor plane is more even than with a focal plane shutter...
    One issue with leaf shutters that is rarely discussed is shutter induced falloff at wider apertures. Depending on how they're designed, the center of the lens is effectively open for a fractionally longer period of time than the edges, and since the shutter plane is not at the exact aperture plane it can impart a falloff in the image. This was a known problem with large format cameras and larger MF cameras when using fast lenses at maximum apertures, however I suspect (hope?) this will not be a prominent issue with the newer MF designs.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    One issue with leaf shutters that is rarely discussed is shutter induced falloff at wider apertures. Depending on how they're designed, the center of the lens is effectively open for a fractionally longer period of time than the edges, and since the shutter plane is not at the exact aperture plane it can impart a falloff in the image. This was a known problem with large format cameras and larger MF cameras when using fast lenses at maximum apertures, however I suspect (hope?) this will not be a prominent issue with the newer MF designs.
    Makes sense, thanks Jack.
    From my own exprience with Contax645 and a view camera I see a somehow diagonal light falloff on the Contax with the edges at the bottom of the image beeing slightly darker (actually it's not visible - I've just discovered this when I prepared some lens cast corrections for the Contax lenses; but it's reproducable). That may be a sync issue of the P45 as well, I don't know. As the LF lenses in any case produce more falloff from center to the edges (beeing much closer to the sensor than 645 lenses) I never thought about the phenomena you've outlined; but it makes sense.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    Makes sense, thanks Jack.
    From my own exprience with Contax645 and a view camera I see a somehow diagonal light falloff on the Contax with the edges at the bottom of the image beeing slightly darker (actually it's not visible - I've just discovered this when I prepared some lens cast corrections for the Contax lenses; but it's reproducable). That may be a sync issue of the P45 as well, I don't know. As the LF lenses in any case produce more falloff from center to the edges (beeing much closer to the sensor than 645 lenses) I never thought about the phenomena you've outlined; but it makes sense.
    Re the angular falloff. *Most* of the time, this probably indicates a dragging or sticky shutter blade, which is what happens when multi-blade focal-plane shutters start to fail...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Re the angular falloff. *Most* of the time, this probably indicates a dragging or sticky shutter blade, which is what happens when multi-blade focal-plane shutters start to fail...
    well, unlikely. The body has around 4000 actuations which is nothing. Maybe I will compare it to my second body to see if there is a difference. I'll report back if there is something wrong...

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Shutters can get sticky from non-use...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Shutters can get sticky from non-use...
    not exactly "non-use". Constant use but just with few actuations.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I understand from some Leica moles that Tim gave himself a Christmas present and made the jump --- CONGRATS TIM! It will be really helpful to have actual customer experiences shared as you gain familiarity with the entire S2 system.

    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I understand from some Leica moles that Tim gave himself a Christmas present and made the jump --- CONGRATS TIM! It will be really helpful to have actual customer experiences shared as you gain familiarity with the entire S2 system.

    Right, good for you Tim!. The worst thing in life is NOT working around decisions that might not be perfect (and occassioanlly thet are!)

    the worst thing is the "...might have been."

    Somehow, I don't think you are going to regret it

    Best Regards
    Victor

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Atta boy Tim !!!!! Looking forward to hearing your impressions as you get more familiar with it.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Congrats Tim. Hope it all works out to your style of shooting.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Whoa, congrats, and I hope it works out as well as you hope
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Thanks everyone!

    I have to get Christmas out of the way before I can get to the S2 in any detail... bah humbug!

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Are you saying that you already have the S2 in hand? Did you get both 70 and 180?
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks everyone!

    I have to get Christmas out of the way before I can get to the S2 in any detail... bah humbug!
    Oh, yeh we all understand, priorities..

    hell, its just a CAMERA!

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by gogopix View Post
    Oh, yeh we all understand, priorities..

    hell, its just a CAMERA!
    Oh no it's not!

    ;-)

    Carsten, I did get the 70 and the 180 though the limited frames I have run off so far are on the 70 but.... you know me, I did insist on testing the 180 in store to make sure it was a good'un and I think it probably is!

    Now over twenty four hours with the S2 and only ten frames taken... grrr... too much else to do... but tomorrow there'll be a festive flash-filled fun session to look forward to. Lucky family!

    Merry Christmas to all

    Tim

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Congratulations, Tim... that's a heck of a stocking stuffer you've got there Merry Xmas to you too.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Congrats Tim

    NO one is more particular than you so I am anxious to hear how it works for you. Have fun and good shooting

    Woody

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I think a lot of us are as particular as Tim, but no one else has his luck IIRC it all started with a focus-shifting 35 Lux ASPH.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I think a lot of us are as particular as Tim, but no one else has his luck IIRC it all started with a focus-shifting 35 Lux ASPH.
    Thanks Carsten! You don't know the half of it though... I have stories to tell!


    t

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I'd love to hear them! Maybe you should have your own forum for that
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I wonder if Leica's risk management department knew that they were going to sell Tim an S2?
    -bob

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    just picked up my S2. i couldn't resist.this will be an interesting test.....---)))
    peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Congrats Peter, look forward to hearing your thoughts.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Congrats Peter, look forward to hearing your thoughts.
    ---))))) thanks, peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Damn I forgot to mention this specifically in this review but let me quote Tim on another thread and than add my answer.

    From Tim
    Excellent - and if you find a way to get it to do continuous file numbering even after a card format, rather than resetting to XXX-0001, I'd be grateful to hear about it!

    Also I'd be curious to know what serial number yours is: mine is, rather worryingly, showing the same serial number as the unit that I tested on the shoot day in mid-november!

    My answer
    Tim that is a firmware update Leica needs to do immediately and they do know that. That is really dangerous as hell right now so be very careful you don't drop stuff in the same folder it WILL over right them. I do know that is being worked on and was warned when we did our review. I completely forgot to mention that in our review , my apologies on that.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    just picked up my S2. i couldn't resist.
    after all your contributions in this thread... I am confused :-)
    Or just for testing?

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I wonder if Leica's risk management department knew that they were going to sell Tim an S2?
    -bob
    Tres Drole...

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    When Leica's insurer heard that Tim was buying one, they called up Leica to raise the premiums...
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    after all your contributions in this thread... I am confused :-)
    Or just for testing?
    just gear addicted---))) and the S2 does feel nice.
    p

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    just gear addicted---)))
    okay

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    just gear addicted---))) and the S2 does feel nice.
    p
    Enjoy your toy

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    here are crops of an S2 shot, 70mm lens, iso 160, f5.7. developed in C1, sharpening and noise reduction turned off. please take a look (100%) at the windows and the roof. there is a lot of color noise around, which-IMHO- should not be there at base iso. makes me worried. and keep in mind that the jpg conversion already killed a lot of noise. i am happy to email the full jpg to whoever is interested in.
    peter
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/images...s/confused.gif

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    here are crops of an S2 shot, 70mm lens, iso 160, f5.7. developed in C1, sharpening and noise reduction turned off. please take a look (100%) at the windows and the roof. there is a lot of color noise around, which-IMHO- should not be there at base iso. makes me worried. and keep in mind that the jpg conversion already killed a lot of noise. i am happy to email the full jpg to whoever is interested in.
    peter
    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/images...s/confused.gif
    that's C1. DNG support is not very good. Too, with the S2 files I've seen so far there are a lot of image artifacts that are not present in LR3 Beta and/or RAW Developer. If you like to, you can send me the RAW instead of the fullrez JPG and I can load it into both the programs (if you don't have them).

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    that's C1. DNG support is not very good. Too, with the S2 files I've seen so far there are a lot of image artifacts that are not present in LR3 Beta and/or RAW Developer. If you like to, you can send me the RAW instead of the fullrez JPG and I can load it into both the programs (if you don't have them).
    That has nothing to do with C1.
    Look at the raw matrix in the files.
    If it is bad there then you are asking for nothing but magic electra-shave from your post processor.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    That has nothing to do with C1.
    Look at the raw matrix in the files.
    If it is bad there then you are asking for nothing but magic electra-shave from your post processor.-bob
    compare S2 RAW files in C1 and RAW Delveloper and you'll see what I mean.

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I look at the raw matrix without the interference of the raw processors that do their best to smooth the defects.
    None of these can add information, just homogenize the color noise in various obnoxious or not ways.
    -bob

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I look at the raw matrix without the interference of the raw processors that do their best to smooth the defects.
    None of these can add information, just homogenize the color noise in various obnoxious or not ways.-bob
    so in a kind of analyzing tool? I don't have such software... I just use RAW converters...
    But looking at some S2 files from this thread again... there is noise in shadow areas (still in C1 the files look more coarse).

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    compare S2 RAW files in C1 and RAW Delveloper and you'll see what I mean.
    LR2 developed file.
    peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by markowich View Post
    LR2 developed file.
    so the crops above are not processed through C1?

    edit: got it... you are fighting with an attachment

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    here is the LR2 file, cropped.
    peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    LR2, crop of the same file. peter

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    so the crops above are not processed through C1?

    edit: got it... you are fighting with an attachment
    yes, i was---)))
    this is bad news AFAIAC. very bad.
    p

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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    LR2 does not have an S2 profile, does it? Try LR3 Beta before deciding anything.
    Carsten - Website

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    I posted this on the LUF and thought i would add it here as well and make this part of the review.

    Well Peter you do have a complete system behind you so that greatly helps you cause. C1 right now besides a color profile, sharpening and noise algorithms has a bigger issue and that is the spectral highlights or this highlight transition area that C1 is not handling very well. LR3 handled it better. Here you can see exactly what C1 is not doing correctly today without a good profile. Also in the third image the eye is getting color artifacts. All of this needs C1 to make a correct profile to handle everything not just the color. In essence C1 is not ready for the S2 and LR3 is better right now but it still is beta and hopefully will be ready for the S2 on release. Obviously this is neither Adobe or C1 fault either just that they are not ready for prime time and in our review we clearly point that out. This is much more than just a color profile as you can see. As you can see my aging comment makes sense. If you have a S2 now than these are the issues that you will deal with until C1 get's on board and LR3 just seems a little better but it still needs some love also. Now I am not saying don't buy the S2 what i am saying is be very aware of what you are buying today, now next week or next month this can all change. Obviously doing a review we are limited by what is available at the time we did it, will it change is the real hope and get better. I think undoubtedly it will . Now just a note I processed these very fast and was going after the certain area's that are the problem area's . I did use a Profile Jack created but again they only deal with color. C1 needs to dig in deep and really profile this cam like they do with there backs. Well this happen , that I can't say but my bet is they will as they support many cams out there. My believe is C1 does not see the S2 as a competitor to there Phase backs simply because it really is a different audience. Could I be wrong in that sure can no doubt. I can't and won't speak for Phase or leica for that matter on support .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

    BTW i just added these two images to the Raw downloads

    File names S2_GetDpi 0102
    S2_ GetDPI 0139
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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