Leica S2 Review by Guy Mancuso and Jack Flesher/ GetDPI.com

[thomas]

Guy, if you want to see how it looks like in a RAW converter that supports the S2 simply take RAW Developer.
I'd say in general RAW Developper is on par with C1 regarding detail extraction and tonal transitions; a bit smoother regarding contrast and a bit different in color reproduction. I don't see any reason why RAW Developer should be behind C1 with the S2. So in reverse I think even if C1 will support the S2 it won't be significantly better than RAW Developer (workflow and speed of the softwares is another story).
Anyway... in RAW Developer I see basically the same shortcomings in the S2 files as in LR3 Beta. So I would not expect any wonders from C1 here.
Firmware upgrades may improve things. Maybe. Phase (Hasselblad, Leaf...) is obviously quite experienced and sophisticated when it comes to the interaction of sensor data, firmware and software. IMO. But I don't see any expertise of Leica here. So... it may improve, but it is also possible that it will not. So I agree 100% with you that the system has to age. And that it is seriously too early to draw final conclusions... but at the same time too early to invest in this system unless you want to be an unpaid beta tester.

BTW i just added these two images to the Raw downloads

I can't access your site anymore. Is it temporarily offline?

[Guy Mancuso]

Yes I have not tried Raw Developer yet and Brian does a great job on many cams it supports. I have no doubts it is better overall right now than C1 surprised it's on the same level as LR3 though. I would have thought a lot better

No site is still alive and well. Looking into the link now Thomas and will update . Not sure what Apple is doing. LOL

[Guy Mancuso]

Here try this .

http://public.me.com/guymancuso

[thomas]

surprised it's on the same level as LR3 though. I would have thought a lot better

it is better (details + color + tonality; all at defaults and sharpening + NR disabled). Still the files don't really do it for me. But try by yourself.

[thomas]

Here try this

this one is working. Many thanks!

[Guy Mancuso]

it is better (details + color + tonality; all at defaults and sharpening + NR disabled). Still the files don't really do it for me. But try by yourself.

Have to download the demo again. Thomas thanks for updating us on Raw developer

[thomas]

Have to download the demo again.

compare your noise tests of the S2 and the P40+ both at base ISO and both in RAW Developer. The P40+ is so much cleaner, finer, sharper...
(and in C1 the P40+ is even a little bit better).

[gogopix]

LR2, crop of the same file. peter

Sorry guys you gotta help me
in the tiles scene looks like gamut splotches WAYYY too big to be noise (even at 100%)
also, look in the dark shadows at bottom on right and in center near wire
Can't see any noise there, where you would expect it.

I'm not sure this shows anything yet. Don't panic.

Also not consistent with other tests. At 160 the S2 shot I have seen all looked damn good.

Victor

[Guy Mancuso]

Okay downloaded Raw developer and color is nicer but I still see the same issues in highlights and artifacts. Highlights are better and can deal with it . Check this out processed in RD

[Guy Mancuso]

Play a little more when I get to LA this morning. But I am seeing issues that are bugging me. I know these are very very harsh conditions BUT hey it's not always controlled either in the real world.

[Guy Mancuso]

Had to try a studio shot with some highlight control and such. Raw Developer again and the color looks pretty good ( still not great though), default on noise and sharpening just the basics.

[Guy Mancuso]

Not crazy about the shadow side though. Going home to C1 . LOL

[Guy Mancuso]

Now a P40+ shot but not crazy about the color( although very neutral in look, the S2 has more yellow) but the detail is killer and the S2 is not in this program. Interesting C1 the S2 is actually over sharpened and have to back off on it. Weird but I don't use this program very often so let's chalk it up to who the hell knows. LOL

Okay was bored off to catch a plane

[thomas]

Okay downloaded Raw developer and color is nicer but I still see the same issues in highlights and artifacts. Highlights are better and can deal with it . Check this out processed in RD

Here's another approach; RAW Developer 1.8.7
(still artifacts in the hair. And, of course, from the makeup)

Settings:

In-Tab
Exposure: -0.2
Highlight Recovery: 20 (Highlight: Medium)
WB: 5442 | Tint: +36

Adjustments Tab
Saturation: -5
Tint Midtones: +18

Sharpening + NR Tab
Sharpening: Hybrid | Smooth: 5 | Strength: 4
Enable NR: yes | Enable Soft Look: no
Early stage NR: 0
Chroma: 3
Color Smoothing: 15
Luminance Smoothing: 0
(Hot + Dead Pixel Threshold: off)

[Guy Mancuso]

Looks better Thomas but obviously some work to be done on them.

[thomas]

Looks better Thomas but obviously some work to be done on them.

true. but that's not really fair as the shots are over exposed.
As to the artifacts: yes, that's a job for detailed retouching.

[Guy Mancuso]

If they are over exposed blame the S2 and it should not be a very balanced metering scene for any cam.

[thomas]

If they are over exposed blame the S2 and it should not be a very balanced metering scene for any cam.

true

[LJL]

Play a little more when I get to LA this morning. But I am seeing issues that are bugging me. I know these are very very harsh conditions BUT hey it's not always controlled either in the real world.

Guy,
your statement about it being "not always controlled in the real world" sort of underscores some of the issues being raised over the need for in-viewfinder exposure compensation. In a harsh light situation as you had shot, a lot of folks might have thought about knocking down the exposure a third of stop to not overexpose the face and hair of the blonde. Not criticizing your shooting at all, but had you been able to easily see where things were while shooting, you may have been able to fire off an extra frame or two easily with the compensation, rather than having to go through menus, etc., thus breaking concentration while shooting. Just a thought. I find having that sort of exposure compensation readily available and visible without taking my eye from the viewfinder, to be invaluable, especially in tricky lighting situations. (Harsh, bright, direct sun is one of those situations, when the normal metering might be reading for blue sky or dark clothing. Unless you spot meter the face/head in this sort of shot, you can almost be assured of being a bit overexposed for the skintones.)

LJ

[John Black]

Regarding Raw Developer, to control artifacts use the hot-pixel suppression - take it the max. Also, do NOT use their convolution sharpening; that is intended for digging out sharpness in highly blurred images. The simple USM sharpening works best IMO. When it comes to toning, there are many options in Raw Developer, such as raising the brightness on the shadows. RAW Developer starts with a linear tone curve, so you can either manipulate the tone curve (ie - creating points and making your own "S" curve) or by brightening / darkening the highlights-midtones-shadows via the three sliders. It's similar result and sometimes I think the slider approach is easier, or at least more predictable. Lastly, the WB can be toned via the hue adjustments in the highlights-midtones-shadows sliders. That's really cool because cold shadow areas can be warmed up - great for rescuing images shot under harsh light conditions.

RAW Developer has some good mechanics under its hood, but after using it for a couple years plus C1, it's pretty easy for me to get the same result out of both. The one thing RAW Developer has which I'd love to see added to C1 is the Hot & Dead pixel suppression. That can do wonders for minimizing the digital artifacts found with digital back files. Likewise, with upper ISO images and/or long exposures, it can work miracles.

I would not expect C1 to do much for the S2. Phase One develops a nice list of profile options for their backs, but for other cameras & backs, all we get is the "generic" profile for that device.

----

LJL - I too find Leica's menu approach to EC adjustment surprising - that's a very basic function, so to bury it in menus is stupid.

[Incognito]

Nice eval.

[fotografz]

This review is pretty outdated now ... it was done in December 2009, almost 2 years ago.

Much has changed.

-Marc

[pophoto]

Yes, anyone care for an updated review?
(Hint hint Marc :P)

Or help contribute somewhat perhaps, I know there's been a lot of longer term users who use the S2 more regularly, I'm sure this combined with their usage on other systems will give a good evaluation in terms of quality and reliability as well. I've been asking questions and reading a lot of the threads, but nothing will compare to the in-depth review from someone with experience can tell, I'm sure even if I were to hold one for any given hour, I may not know certain things about it. I know it's a shot in the dark, but here's to trying and thank you in advance!

[irakly]

Yes, anyone care for an updated review?
(Hint hint Marc :P)

Or help contribute somewhat perhaps, I know there's been a lot of longer term users who use the S2 more regularly, I'm sure this combined with their usage on other systems will give a good evaluation in terms of quality and reliability as well. I've been asking questions and reading a lot of the threads, but nothing will compare to the in-depth review from someone with experience can tell, I'm sure even if I were to hold one for any given hour, I may not know certain things about it. I know it's a shot in the dark, but here's to trying and thank you in advance!

Here is your updated review
Leica S2 against megapixel arms race: Digital Photography Review
Not without Marc's invaluable help, I must admit.

[docmoore]

Irakly,

Wonderful review of the S2 as used in fashion and advertising.

Loved the contrast between studio and night in Times Square.

It is totally consistent with my experience with the camera ... as an non-pro shooting mainly landscapes. It continues to reveal subtleties that defy my ability to discern prior to capture...however they are very evident in the files and in print.

While it is camera that is simple ergonomically, it rivals my prior H3D II 39, Phase 20 Back on H2 and both backs on Alpa with R. and S. lenses. Nice to have a weather sealed option for outside shooting.

Again, nice to see such compelling pictures in your review...thanks for sharing this.

Bob

[pophoto]

Here is your updated review
Leica S2 against megapixel arms race: Digital Photography Review
Not without Marc's invaluable help, I must admit.

Yes, I had to speed your review over at the other forum, which Marc had pointed out! Thank you for doing it, and I am glad so to have read this last night. The S2 for me is still the camera I very much want, but there's been too many temptations in-between, I've sort of lost track. I'm glad for people like you, Marc, Kurt and others who shared so much about the S2. Leica alone is not enough. I will spend more time re-reading your article soon. It is just a shame the Aptus acted up. I hope others like you can continue to add, to what is a terrific camera made for the pure enjoyment of photography.

[irakly]

Thanks
Clearly, S2 is a camera which one can use for a very long time. It is hard to imagine what can be done to make any further improvement consequential to improving workflow, or making pictures better.
As for Aptus, I am sure that what I found was outside of its normal behavior. What makes me wonder, though, is how the hell the back with such an issue could have passed quality control.

Yes, I had to speed your review over at the other forum, which Marc had pointed out! Thank you for doing it, and I am glad so to have read this last night. The S2 for me is still the camera I very much want, but there's been too many temptations in-between, I've sort of lost track. I'm glad for people like you, Marc, Kurt and others who shared so much about the S2. Leica alone is not enough. I will spend more time re-reading your article soon. It is just a shame the Aptus acted up. I hope others like you can continue to add, to what is a terrific camera made for the pure enjoyment of photography.

[irakly]

Thanks Bob. It is always a pleasure to write about something that makes sense and does not require bending the truth

Irakly,

Wonderful review of the S2 as used in fashion and advertising.

Loved the contrast between studio and night in Times Square.

It is totally consistent with my experience with the camera ... as an non-pro shooting mainly landscapes. It continues to reveal subtleties that defy my ability to discern prior to capture...however they are very evident in the files and in print.

While it is camera that is simple ergonomically, it rivals my prior H3D II 39, Phase 20 Back on H2 and both backs on Alpa with R. and S. lenses. Nice to have a weather sealed option for outside shooting.

Again, nice to see such compelling pictures in your review...thanks for sharing this.

Bob

[Paratom]

Here is your updated review
Leica S2 against megapixel arms race: Digital Photography Review
Not without Marc's invaluable help, I must admit.

Hi Irakly,
very interesting to read your review.
I have now used the S2 for about 1 year (for personal/hobby use) and while I have never made such systematic analyses like you I can confirm many of your points.
For example how good the 70mm works for people/portrait and skin, how I find while being very sharp it still doesnt draw skin "clinical/unpleasant sharp).
I also agree how good the dng-files come out without having to do much post processing.
And how good ISO 640 works which I use very often.

Besides price I am very happy with the system, it handles so easy that I even use it a lot for "snapshots and things like that".
PS: Whenever I see any images from you I am constantly impressed. Allways look interesting/different/a bit mystical.

[rfyweretiu]

Doug for your type of work the S2 makes some sense. It's quieter and your needs don't need the modular design but you also need the long stuff or at least a 1.4 on the 180mm which I found to be a nice lens. Actually I liked it better than the 70mm. It is a really nice cam with a lot of potential and I believe there certainly is a place for it just needs to age some but I give Leica a lot of credit for taking the risk on it. Certainly will appeal to a lot of folks. BTW thanks for the comments, my only regret is Idid not ask for it longer since i did not get to everything but I know a lot of that data is around and we focused much more on the output than it's functionality and ergo's. Hopefully in February I will get it again but some things I would like to have on my system is the 3 inch LCD, 2 card slots and maybe the weather sealing also. It's a nice cam and I do wish Leica the best with it.

[elitegroup]

Hi,

Will we see a thorough analysis of the new Leica S in the digital camera review section of the forum. I know several people have already acquired their S cameras on getdpi.

If possible here's a list of things I'd love to see.....

- Dynamic range at ISO 100 vs the S2 at ISO 160
- Noise levels comparison at all ISO's vs S2
- Lightroom profiles review for the new S
- Auto white balance performance
- Grey Card WB efficiency specific to skin tones under ambient and strobe lighting conditions.
- New Leica Image Shuttle tethered speed review

Cheers

[Kolor-Pikker]

I'd like to see a review of the new S too, I recently handled one at a Leica store and liked what I saw, but we now have new backs and cameras from other manufacturers too.

[RVB]

I'd like to see a review of the new S too, I recently handled one at a Leica store and liked what I saw, but we now have new backs and cameras from other manufacturers too.

Here is an ISO series from the new S.. taken a few weeks ago on a dull day..

https://www.yousendit.com/download/U...eDNoMlg0WjlVag

[Kolor-Pikker]

Here is an ISO series from the new S.. taken a few weeks ago on a dull day..

https://www.yousendit.com/download/U...eDNoMlg0WjlVag

Appreciate it, but unless there are some side-by-sides with say an DF+IQ140 and/or H5D40, it doesn't help too much. My local Leica shop does have a couple other MF cams, but aren't really comparable to the S, so all I know about it is in a bubble.

Reading through the pages here in retrospect, the S seems to have fixed most of the issues of the S2, and we now have the 24 & 30mm's. I wonder if people here still think the S lenses are nothing special compared to Phase/Hassy glass.

[RVB]

Appreciate it, but unless there are some side-by-sides with say an DF+IQ140 and/or H5D40, it doesn't help too much. My local Leica shop does have a couple other MF cams, but aren't really comparable to the S, so all I know about it is in a bubble.

Reading through the pages here in retrospect, the S seems to have fixed most of the issues of the S2, and we now have the 24 & 30mm's. I wonder if people here still think the S lenses are nothing special compared to Phase/Hassy glass.

I doubt a H5D will be any different to a H4D,I haven't used Phase glass But I do use hassy glass and the Leica glass is better imho,the hassy glass is good but requires DAC in phocus to correct the flaw's,S glass I have used (24mm,35mm and 70mm.. 120 and 180 are on the way) is excellent.

Having said that the Hc 100 and 120 macro mk2 are really good,the 28 is nice as long as DAC is applied,and I hear the new 50 is really good,overall there is little difference in I.Q between the H and S,I think it comes down to preferences like aspect ratio and ergonomic's etc and Hassy as a complete system is excellent with WLVF and Tilt shift device and the ability to use a tech camera..

[RVB]

One other point is that imho S glass is better wide open...

[Paratom]

I can give some feedback about the new "S" from amateur user point of view:
-continuous AF has improved. For example I had been never successful with c-AF of my S2 when taking images of my kids on a bike for example. With the new S I am more successful.
-AF accurancy - I am one of those who found the AF accurancy already good on the S2 and I still feel its very accurate on the S.
-high ISO: My impression high ISO has improved - not so much showing less noise but in a way showing more detail at high ISO. I now even use 1600 ISO more often than I did use ISO 1250 with the S. Still try to stay in the range 100-800 as long as possible
-handling - the mini joystick is nice to have and allows easier/faster access to some funktions
-built in gps: it works and is nice to have it in camera
-viewfinder now also shows ISO - by the way I find the viewfinder besides IQ one of the big pluses compared to smaller sensor cameras; the Canon 5dIII has a nice viewfinder but the S viewfinder is still clearly better;

I am still quite happy with the S; For my taste the handling is simple and excellent; Due to weather sealing and large hoods I have been confident to use it in bad weather without any problems so far;
For my part I really like the lenses a lot. They are so good wide open that I have no hesistation to use them wide open very often. (I can talk only about 35/70/120/180).
I also have a Hassy 110/2.0 with adapter because I loved that lens with the Rollei Hy6 and was afraid the 120 drawing too "clinical" as a Macro lens. But this is not the case and I never use the 110Hassy but allways the Leica 120 if I want a lens in this focal length range.
I handle and use the camera like a DSLR by the way, maybe I could achieve even sharper images when using a tripod more often, but one can get scary sharp images handholding the camera as well.
Of course it is not really a low light camera, but it is a very flexible system.
Tom

[Kolor-Pikker]

Here is an ISO series from the new S.. taken a few weeks ago on a dull day..

So I looked at the files today and wow, that is some bad weather, I hope it isn't often like that where you live? It makes it seem as though there is noise in the image, even at ISO100, but actually it's an atmospheric effect like a light rain or something.

[RVB]

So I looked at the files today and wow, that is some bad weather, I hope it isn't often like that where you live? It makes it seem as though there is noise in the image, even at ISO100, but actually it's an atmospheric effect like a light rain or something.

For sure,it was a long winter here,It's been pretty good for the last few days though and summers are good... I will post a H4D-50 vs S shot soon..

The big attraction to the S is glass and small size of the body.. it feels like a 5Dmk3 with a huge viewfinder..