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Thread: Phase One IQ180 first look

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    Arrow Phase One IQ180 first look

    Hi folks,

    Guy and I met with Kevin Raber from PhaseOne today to get our first look at the new Phase IQ180, 80 MP digital MF back. What we're going to do is start by tossing a few images up for you to get a closer look at, then add images and discussion points going forward. Keep in mind this is a first look at a new back, and the model we shot with is one of two prototype units in existence. As such, final specs will likely be tweaked and altered, so all of the usual disclaimers apply -- this is meant as nothing more than a glimpse into what we might expect when the actual production units hit dealer shelves. We also do not have a final set of profiles yet either, so color is a tad off. For consistency, we used a WB of 5000/0 for all of the images. The images were processed in C1 v6.1, and had light capture sharpening applied.

    This first shot is of a power plant about 1/4 mile away, taken with the phase 150/f2.8 lens at f11. First full image and then crop area:





    Next image is of a condemned building interior, taken with the Phase 28mm lens also at f11. Here the C1 lens corrections were applied as well:


    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Just wanted to chime in here also about this hands on demo via some video. As we talk about the back it should be noted many features are at this time are not available and things will be added and updated. Some important features to come Live View, Focus Mask, Artificial Horizon ( both roll and pitch). What we did want to bring to the table at this prototype stage is it has some serious impact on IQ . The interface as you will see is nothing short of amazing and will get even better on production release.

    I am loading this on You Tube but for right now we have this Movie
    for everyone just to get a idea on the interface. Get popcorn out its 10 minutes and we could have gone on longer.

    This is a must see

    U-Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GYKfT0jvec
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Also want to add a general comment regarding file quality and traits. It is clear that the extra 20MP over my P65+ back do translate into meaningful additional image information. (It is worth noting that if you crop the IQ180 file to a square, it will still be 60MP!) To be perfectly honest, I did not really expect this as I was not convinced the Mamiya, Phase or even Schneider lenses were up to utilizing more than the P65+ had to offer, but I was wrong. Every lens we used --- 55LS, 80LS, 110LS, 150D and even the 28D --- made good use of the extra pixels.

    I am going to go out on a limb and add that it appears the new sensor also has a bit more DR than the P65+. I would estimate it at around an additional 1/3 stop or maybe a little more just by looking at the files.
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Just wanted to add a couple quick shots here also. Here are two nice images that I thought where kind of interesting



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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Oh wait was just joking those are the crops here are the real images. LOL

    First image shot with the 80 LS and second the 110 LS



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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Couple shots here showing some detail and DR which I have to agree with Jack looks like images have expanded in the DR range which is quite interesting with this new sensor.

    Both images are shot with the 80mm LS . If you want to see images 3000 pixels wide go to this link click the thumbnail than click the preview image to expand to 3000 pixels wide.

    http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/browseimages.php?c=289



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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Guy i love the setup with those two crops posted first and then the next post with full frame

    compared to Leaf Aptus 12 whois images are impressive but at close inspection 100% crops IMO the fine detail kind of looks slightly mushy compared to these IQ180 images that you guys posted..

    perhaps Leaf Capture renders differently compared to C1..

    not sure if you guys spend enough time with Leaf Aptus 12 but if you did..
    do you guys see any such difference?

    I don't really have any more excuses after three years of torture.. the resistance is finally over


    much appreciated to both of you!!! 'cause bottom line is most of us need real world images...

    that's what is all about...keep them coming

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    Ronan
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    All handheld?

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Guy,
    What picture is the last enlargement of the doorknob coming from?
    I cannot see it in the image above it.

    Thanks,
    Darr
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Looks good. What about using the large file size on the computer?
    Download speed, upload to C1, processing out the jpegs?

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    C1 on MBP full res. 16bit 428 final tiff. 26 seconds which is quite good.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Guy and Jack,

    thanks a lot for the great video on the interface of the IQ!

    I have two questions:

    - histogram: if you have the image on the left and the small histogram on the right, can you zoom into the image and get a histogram of this particular part of the image? or is what you see in the small window on the right always the histogram of the entire image?

    - white balance: has Phase implemented a way to set a custom WB in the field (as in the leaf backs) - you have your grey card, you take a picture, touch the grey card in the image, and you are set for all subsequent images?

    Chris

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by JSK Rangefinder View Post

    not sure if you guys spend enough time with Leaf Aptus 12 but if you did..
    do you guys see any such difference?
    Sorry Rangefinder, neither of us has had an opportunity to shoot with the A12. However, they are the same sensor, so theoretically they should be able to achieve the same net level of detail and DR. But then physical factors such as criticality of alignment, rigidity, vibration from chosen cooling systems, etc, all come into play.

    Hopefully we'll get to demo one one of these days, however I'd have to admit to already being spoiled All joking aside, I see the Phase <> Leaf relationship as offering their customers three distinct options in high-resolution digital imaging: 1) The Leaf series with state of the art sensor, but without sensor plus, at attractive base pricing; 2) the P+ series adding a more robust and weather-sealed casing along with sensor plus for those who want that; and 3) the new IQ series with the new tech in the LCD for those who regularly want to work un-tethered. (Keep in mind that for a photographer that shoots primarily in the studio tethered to a large monitor, these new rear LCD technologies are not all that compelling -- the real benefit, at least IMHO, to the new LCD and UI tech is for field shooters like myself.)
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronan View Post
    All handheld?
    Uh, no.
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    Guy,
    What picture is the last enlargement of the doorknob coming from?
    I cannot see it in the image above it.

    Thanks,
    Darr
    Hi Darr,

    That was just a full-frame capture downsized for web view on it's own, no detail crop from it shared. That image and the one above are in direct Sun, and while difficult to convey on the web via a jpeg, you can see surprising detail in the heavy shadows behind the bright features.
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    Guy and Jack,

    thanks a lot for the great video on the interface of the IQ!

    I have two questions:

    - histogram: if you have the image on the left and the small histogram on the right, can you zoom into the image and get a histogram of this particular part of the image? or is what you see in the small window on the right always the histogram of the entire image?

    - white balance: has Phase implemented a way to set a custom WB in the field (as in the leaf backs) - you have your grey card, you take a picture, touch the grey card in the image, and you are set for all subsequent images?

    Chris
    Re Histo: Excellent question, and I don't have the answer -- I never pulled the histo up on a zoom. Kevin is testing the back with another reviewer today, so I have emailed him and asked him to check that. However, realize that if you are in split-screen view and double-tap to go to 100%, the split histo view goes away and is replaced by the 100% crop. Now, what happens if we call the histo up after going to 100% view, I don't know, and that's what I've asked Kevin to check. again, great question!

    Re WB: actually all my Phase backs since the P45+ had that feature, and would hold up to three custom WB settings.
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    The speed of the back is astonishing.

    I just think about the way I shoot right now. I generally want to see the histogram and then to check focus. Moving from the histo to the to image review, then to the desired spot and magnify is a lot of button presses and still isn't great at the third level of zoom.

    With the new back the histo and highlight clipping already showing and then a simple double tap for 100%......I'm drooling.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Re C1 v6.1 speed. First off, C1 file processing times are affected significantly by what adjustments get applied during conversion. For example, adding lens corrections and spot removal add significantly to the processing time over not having those on. I did find C1 V6.1 notably faster on my MBP (2.66 core i7 with 8GB RAM and SSD.) I also found that the net time to spit out a 16-bit 80MP (~480MB) file was not notably different than when I do a 60MP P65+ file -- which I found interesting. If there is interest, I can do some actual benchmarks on my machines later next week. Suffice it to say, I used my MBP to output 16-bit tiffs for all the shots shown so far and it handled them totally fine without any hiccups, even with CS5 open at the same time to extract the 100% crops.
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    About speed of system . About the only part that actually took a pause was when shooting and initial review of image maybe 2 seconds. Now given this is a prototype the engine most likely is not optimized yet and also the CF cards being used. The fastest card used was a Sandisk Extreme which is 60mg read/write not any of the faster cards on the market. Everything else in the IU was extremely fast and rendered almost immediately. You do see a slight rendering going on with the double tap to 100 percent this will also take into account the type of card in back. Even so for a prototype is was amazing and we have to realize we are talking a 80 mpx image going through this process. If you go back to the you tube video and watch how fast the IU is going on different functions it's very fast.

    What I can't describe in our writings here is how much a game changer this really is. It is not even close to thinking it is just a new LCD display. After some use you can't imagine going back. This is coming back to a need not a want. LOL
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    One other note we have been processing on laptops and pretty amazed how fast C1 is rocking these images out.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Re WB: actually all my Phase backs since the P45+ had that feature, and would hold up to three custom WB settings.
    I think "cly" refers to a different feature on the Leaf backs. On the Leaf you can click on the LCD with a pen and the actual image then will be white balanced (you can click for instance on a captured grey card or on any "neutral" area in the image). This setting is then applied as WB preset for the subsequent captures. Cool feature!

    In the video you said you can set the target values for highlight warning in the histogram (so Capture One style). Do you know whether Phase will also implement a tool to set the threshold of the focus mask?

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post

    In the video you said you can set the target values for highlight warning in the histogram (so Capture One style). Do you know whether Phase will also implement a tool to set the threshold of the focus mask?
    Thanks for the clarification on what cly's question was -- I do not know. I don't know the answer to your above question either as not all of the bells and whistles were fully implemented in the prototype back yet. One would expect similar implementation as C1 though.
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    I think "cly" refers to a different feature on the Leaf backs. On the Leaf you can click on the LCD with a pen and the actual image then will be white balanced (you can click for instance on a captured grey card or on any "neutral" area in the image). This setting is then applied as WB preset for the subsequent captures. Cool feature!
    thanks thomas, this is what I had in mind. I think if you want to use a custom WB on the P40+ or P45+, you set the WB in C1 and then upload it to the back. So it's only possible when working tethered.

    Chris

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Nice initial look at the Phase One IQ180, Jack and Guy. I think you just about brought out the enabler in everyone.

    ken

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post
    thanks thomas, this is what I had in mind. I think if you want to use a custom WB on the P40+ or P45+, you set the WB in C1 and then upload it to the back. So it's only possible when working tethered.

    Chris
    Cly, to clarify with the P backs, you can shoot a gray card and use that file directly in the back to set a custom WB. You can then store and save 3 such custom WB's for use.
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Nice initial look at the Phase One IQ180, Jack and Guy. I think you just about brought out the enabler in everyone.

    ken
    Coming from you, that's really saying something!

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Okay, was looking though the files and found something interesting to share. For this shot, I pointed at the guy on the mast and AF'd, then recomposed and captured this frame:



    Now look at the crop of the man working. Note first I had to blur his face out in CS because he was totally recognizable and we clearly did not get a signed release. Second, note that he is well over 100 yards away on that mast, which is swaying back and forth slowly as he works. This shot is captured with the 150D at f11:



    If you look at his pants, you can see moire. So we have moire in a swatch of fabric shot on a worker that is about 150 yards distant. If you understand what moire is and what causes it, then you should understand my incredulity with this finding.
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    As moire is usually perceived as a negative, in reality for this image it is a sort of credit to the sensor, lens and total combined imaging system.
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Going back the You Tube video, you will see we did a little product shot. In a normal situation, we would most likely be shooting tethered to check focus, layout, WB, exposure and blown highlights. Now with this new LCD it was very easy to view image layout along with histo and check blown highlights on the LCD. That eliminated the need (at least for me) to being tethered. With just a few taps on the LCD I can judge histo and blown highlights using the side panel icons, then with quick a quick tap go to 100% or more to judge focus and scroll to the area to check focus not mentioning area to check for layout design issues, just as you would on a computer doing it tethered. We found this very intuitive compared to what we are used to with our Plus backs. These images clearly represent what we saw on the LCD as we were shooting. I did do a Color Checker on a previous shot brought my WB over from it to this image. I focused on the 1:3.5 on the Leica lens for this shot, it was the 110 LS at f12 and you can see the shallow DoF:



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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    And yes, that really was Sonny Bono's Leica IIIF!
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Some artsy fartsy shots with the 28mmD lens.





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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Bicycle Bokeh, the 110LS at f2.8:

    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Hey guys, thanks for the informative pictures!

    My observation: The files seem exceptionally clean at 100%. Noise is almost completely imperceptible on the product shot close-up of the leica camera. Do you think there's a difference compared to the Aptus 12? Maybe due to the different circuitry?

    Or is it just Capture One 6.1?

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    i know you didn't see the production model, but what is your expectation for live view?

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Hi Paul and John great questions and lets see if we can capture your questions here. I delayed my trip home so still in SF with Jack and we have been discussing these type of questions this morning. First Live View and we have to say not so sure how valuable that tool really is at this point given the control of this LCD and UI. In the past obviously seeing what is going on has been a challenge given the current LCD situation with all the backs. Here I view this technology more as shoot and make adjustments as you go since we tend to do that anyway OR we rely on Viewefinders, E-modules and other tools hanging off the tech cams to help . Today with the IQ backs we have real visibility on what we are doing as we shoot. Besides histo and highlight control so available on screen the 100 percent (to 400%) zoom really do increase usability along with scrolling features.

    Lets imagine the tech cam shot at the moment we take all the extra stuff like finders and such off the cam itself. With new features like Artificial horizon tool which will first set horizontal and vertical with pitch and roll and getting the back lined up and square (Ergo just replaced the cube somewhat). Than lets say basically aim the cam in the direction you need and take a quick shot. Okay here you can evaluate several things right off the bat, your framing for one, histo, highlight control, focus and such. Now here maybe the one place where I see live view has a place that makes some sense and it would be in only the framing side since the LCD can answer all the other issues most likely a lot better like critical focus, exposure and highlight control.

    So I see the value of live view much less a need since we have these other controls that will answer our issues much easier than before. So our conclusion on live view is simply this the only major advantage at this point with this tech is coming down to framing initially. But let me address it also like this as well you may take 1 image make adjustment than take another and treat the process more like shooting a Polaroid and getting your adjustments in order for the final image. Now one may say this takes time but are we not doing that anyway and can save some time in loading all the hardware on the cam anyway to figure those kinds of tools anyway. I take it down to saving buying those sliding backs, viewfinders and exposure tools and tossing them out the window and not using them anymore. We now could go out with the basic kit of back, tech cam and lens, and with the LCD UI controls we can work much better and smoother without those hardware tools and also maybe avoid relying on live view as much.

    What is the interesting part here and we realize no one has tried this yet but after you work with it some your thoughts turn to this is so efficient some things like Live view as we thought where so important become less of a need than we thought.

    Now the one tool which we did not have which even with the zoom 100-400 percent feature is the focus mask maybe a really nice tool to confirm maybe a little better visually to us the confirmation of focus but more in the area's where the TILT of lens was applied and see that without scrolling to it at 100 percent. So the reality there maybe you see full screen exactly where the focus mask is landing on screen and giving you a quick confirmation that you nailed it. This is something I look forward seeing implemented on final production.

    Little change in topic and this is the part that is scaring Jack and I as we both have said to each other we would take this back TODAY even with the prototype warts, and some stuff not fully implemented yet. The LCD UI implementation to us has really shown us how much better the workability of this back is today even without those added features not loaded, like the Artificial Horizon, Live view and focus mask yet to come.

    What I just wrote is pretty much the heart of this review for me. We all know much to well this is REAL money we are talking about and we'll all have to pay to get in the door. While it's painful I've already decided I want one, and the next step is working it all into my personal budget.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    Hey guys, thanks for the informative pictures!

    My observation: The files seem exceptionally clean at 100%. Noise is almost completely imperceptible on the product shot close-up of the leica camera. Do you think there's a difference compared to the Aptus 12? Maybe due to the different circuitry?

    Or is it just Capture One 6.1?
    Yes, it is exceptionally clean -- cleaner than my P65+ using the same minimal settings in C1, and this isn't even a final production back! To answer, I honestly don't know, never worked with the Aptus 12 or Leaf Capture. But my guess for the Phase is it's mostly how they design their backs to integrate so well with C1, not either-or but both, if that makes sense.
    Jack
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    John,

    My .02 on Live View: I view it (haha) as a feature, and certainly nice to have, but not a prime necessity for my style of shooting for basically the same reasons Guy just spelled out. The reality for me is that with the new 100% review being so darn good, LV becomes more of a framing and composition tool than it is a critical image (p)review tool. In that, it could replace a somewhat expensive VF for a tech camera, and as Guy also mentioned, the other new UI features may have eliminated the need for associated tech-cam hardware like sliding backs, GG's and laser RF's for many tech shooters.
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Thanks guys.

    my use for LV would also be framing, but maybe for accurate focus; reading right off the sensor would be cool with this kind of LCD

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by cly View Post

    I have two questions:

    - histogram: if you have the image on the left and the small histogram on the right, can you zoom into the image and get a histogram of this particular part of the image? or is what you see in the small window on the right always the histogram of the entire image?

    - white balance: has Phase implemented a way to set a custom WB in the field (as in the leaf backs) - you have your grey card, you take a picture, touch the grey card in the image, and you are set for all subsequent images?

    Chris
    Histo: The answer is no, the histo on the back remains for the full image regardless. The reason for this is that if the whole histo is good, then anything inside it will be within the ability of C1 to adjust it up or down to any level you want. You DO of course get the histo for your crop view when in C1, and so can fine tweak after the fact.

    WB: I did confirm what I said earlier, the new back will have the same three spaces for custom user WB settings. These will be set as they are now, simply by using a gray-card file to set them off of.
    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Thought we where done ah. Not

    Couple images from the 150D at F11 along with some 100 percent crops. This is my lens and one of those out of my dead cold hands deals.

    There is no sharpening other than my C1 capture sharpening which is very very light.








    2 crops from this one



    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Wow, not sure where you found that sunshine yesterday but it was cold and dreary in Palo Alto the whole day. For anyone not familiar with the bay area we can have completely different weather (micro climates) in areas very close to one another.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Sure glad I don't have $43k burning a hole in my pocket right now.....the quality of these images is sure impressive! Truly amazing.

    Gary

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Thanks for the review Jack and Guy! I ordered the IQ140 yesterday, can't wait....

    Cheers, -Peter

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Terry: Indeed, it was dreary until we hit Marina, which was a pleasant surprise.

    Gary: Thanks for the kind words, it is incredible image quality for sure.

    Peter: welcome to GetDPI and congrats on your order!
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Also want to add a general comment regarding file quality and traits. It is clear that the extra 20MP over my P65+ back do translate into meaningful additional image information. (It is worth noting that if you crop the IQ180 file to a square, it will still be 60MP!) To be perfectly honest, I did not really expect this as I was not convinced the Mamiya, Phase or even Schneider lenses were up to utilizing more than the P65+ had to offer, but I was wrong. Every lens we used --- 55LS, 80LS, 110LS, 150D and even the 28D --- made good use of the extra pixels.

    I am going to go out on a limb and add that it appears the new sensor also has a bit more DR than the P65+. I would estimate it at around an additional 1/3 stop or maybe a little more just by looking at the files.
    Jack, the whole reason that Phase has invested so much in the new lenses is that they were aware of what new sensors were in the pipeline, and more importantly, they were aware that Blads lenses are mostly already at their performance limits. As such, the new lenses are in a sense future proofed.
    Claus Molgaard was also at pains to point out that the IQ180 has in fact got extended DR. I neglected to ask him if this was hardware or software driven.
    If you get the chance, run some P40+ or P65+ files through C1Pro 6.1 and that might give us some clues as to whether the DR is software driven.

    Cheers,
    Siebel
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Guy/Jack,

    Could you describe the auto virtual horizon/tilt feature? Obviously today we have the horizon display/beep on the P+ backs - is this new feature correcting/cropping a skewed image in camera? Not sure if you discussed this in the video or not but I'm on an iPad in Europe right now & download rate challenged so haven't been able to watch it in full yet.

    Thanks!

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Little change in topic and this is the part that is scaring Jack and I as we both have said to each other we would take this back TODAY even with the prototype warts, and some stuff not fully implemented yet. The LCD UI implementation to us has really shown us how much better the workability of this back is today even without those added features not loaded, like the Artificial Horizon, Live view and focus mask yet to come.

    What I just wrote is pretty much the heart of this review for me. We all know much to well this is REAL money we are talking about and we'll all have to pay to get in the door. While it's painful I've already decided I want one, and the next step is working it all into my personal budget.
    Guy, I'm guessing the helmet's not going to help much. As such, I can offer you the spare bunk at my place so you can stay low until "She who must be appeased" has calmed down.....
    Siebel
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  48. #48
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    Thanks a lot Jack and Guy for posting these.

    You did not say what ISO you were using, I assume you used base ISO on all shots? Did you shoot higher ISO as well?

    Did you try sensor + on higher ISO as well?

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    What is Base iso on the IQ180? 50 ? What is the aptus 12 Wanst it something like 80?

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 first look

    IQ180: 50-800 and 200-3200 in Sensor+
    AptusII 12: 50-800

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