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Thread: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

  1. #101
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Ah, not this year! I heard you could still go full monte but no drinking allowed!

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Lovesya Terry but if you think I'm running 7.5 miles naked and drunk with a full phase one kit, you only half know me :-)

  2. #102
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Trust me, you'd have to be drunk to deal with seeing me a la Monty...

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Tim,

    You could just don a hastily made Bentley costume and fit right in
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  4. #104
    stewpid
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Guys, (note the 's') I'm taking my life in my hands here but honestly, I'm not trying to rain on the bonfire so please see this as a genuine question. In the 35 iso shots I see much more noise than I would have expected. In fact, in all the shots this applies. I am comparing this to my own shots taken on various Phase backs plus Hass 39/2. On all the backs (so this is NOT an anti Phase thing) I see less noise at around 100 iso than the 180 samples at 35.
    I know these are web samples but I am used to allowing for that. And let me repeat/emphasise, I'm not interested in getting involved in a flame war, or pointless defences of latest toys, I'm upgrading my own gear constantly and all I'm interested in is accurate info. Does anyone else notice more noise, or is it me?

  5. #105
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Why you so nervous , we do not have flame wars here. EVER. LOL


    Actually good observation and let me explain what you are seeing and Jack did touch on this as well in one of his posts. Its actually quite simple

    The ISO 35 setting on the 180 just like the ISO 50 setting on the P40 and P65 is the extended DR range of these backs . So in other words the lowest or base ISO has more DR than the higher ISO settings like ISO 100. Jack and I always shoot at the lowest setting when in the field to gain the highest DR range. This is actually normal on the Phase backs.

    Now with that normally on the P40 and P60 that extended range is NOT like the extended DR on the Iq 180 sensor in reality we are seeing at least a 1/2 to full stop more DR on this new sensor. Jack and I are playing it safe without that type of testing to say a 1/2 more DR than our current P40 and P65.

    Now this is huge and folks need to understand what actually happens here. WE are seeing in area's of the shadows that we have not seen before so its not so much noise although there most likely will be because we are seeing in area's that normally would clip and even on our backs these area's would clip. Jack and I both have said it to look normal on the IQ 180 we might be adding some black since the DR is so big it almost looks flat looking and far reaching in the shadow details than any other current back on the market. I would throw Hassy in here as well as others. Now on the Leaf back it might just be mirroring this as well since it has this new sensor. I'm taking a educated guess on the leaf since i have not tested it.


    So in short the range is so great on DR we are simply seeing in area's that we dared not to go on anything else so the detail is so deep in the shadows it does not look normal but we are seeing so deep in hell here we are not used to seeing this.

    Here is a good example i shot this at ISO 35 and i actually underexposed it but this shot is not clipping in the slightest and trust me on this on my P40 this would clip in the shadows no question. So in short I have NO true black which is so odd that we are not used to seeing this

    Look into the depths of hell here and you can actually see the detail and actually i did comment on this when I posted it in this thread . I will repeat my comment after the image



    Post 17

    This is pretty interesting. I was actually testing the 210 F4 lens here and I was at F4 wide open and was shot handheld and proved to me this was a good lens but more important I shot this at ISO 35 and was a stop underexposed and there is no true black in this frame not a thing that is clipped on the low side. I can see all the detail in all the shadow areas and no highlights clipped either. That is some serious DR folks. This would have clipped with anything else out there.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    So the noise that you maybe seeing is actually more detail far beyond what we normally are used too, these areas now would be clipped with our current gear. So we have jumped into a new area of DR that we simply have not seen before.

    Hope that helps explain it.

    Now i will add here GetDPI is about data not brand wars and flame wars and trust me on this the forum is heavily moderated to prevent such silliness. Its simply not in the best interest to our members but good frank discussions are always welcome.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Here you go i took this up to 100 percent and made a 1200 x1200 crop of the bottom right area for you to see. Now in all honesty my P40+ would have clipped here but with this new sensor it is seeing really deep in the shadows. Noise yes i see a touch and this maybe the effect of this expanded range but it is also a area that normally we might not see. So really good on one hand and maybe a touch misleading on what we are used to seeing. So i can see your question as a very valid one for sure. FYI P40+ and P65+ are identical sensors so the results would be the same but the 180 is new and has more DR

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    This maybe the deepest area I can find in this image upper right doorway

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Also, re the "noise" visible in the shadows of these images --- my guess is you are viewing on a laptop. The way a laptop backlights can boost shadows and why I mentioned cranking monitor brightness up. Also, I suspect gamut is an issue, more than the laptop display can handle properly. If you view the same images on a display designed for editing that is properly calibrated then you will not see the same noise signatures you see from the laptop display. I sort of did address the noise "wart" in the very first post...
    Jack
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  10. #110
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Hi Guy (no "S" this time!), thanks for your incredibly detailed and thoughtful reply. And yes, Jack, you did mention noise in your first post and I seem to have missed that - sorry.

    Your reply does sound credible, Guy, but I still have a concern; if we can see it on a monitor (profiled NEC PA271W by the way Jack) then I suspect it might show up in a large print. I think it would have to be very large, but then that's one of the reasons for getting such a big sensor. I guess I'll just have to do some tests and maybe that's what this is about for me - desperately trying NOT to get impressed. The new tech certainly has me interested.

    (Not really nervous by the way, Guy; just trying to avoid being my often clumsy self and upsetting people needlessly.)

  11. #111
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Tim,

    You could just don a hastily made Bentley costume and fit right in
    Well buddy, that's the closest I'm likely to get to a Bentley after paying for my upgrade! Just spoke to my dealer. '...end of the month...' and the was me all excited!

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by stewpid View Post
    (Not really nervous by the way, Guy; just trying to avoid being my often clumsy self and upsetting people needlessly.)
    You'd be hard pressed to do so on this forum. Only those who make it very clear they are just goading someone raise flags around here. Otherwise we're all in it to learn and discuss.

  13. #113
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by stewpid View Post
    Hi Guy (no "S" this time!), thanks for your incredibly detailed and thoughtful reply. And yes, Jack, you did mention noise in your first post and I seem to have missed that - sorry.

    Your reply does sound credible, Guy, but I still have a concern; if we can see it on a monitor (profiled NEC PA271W by the way Jack) then I suspect it might show up in a large print. I think it would have to be very large, but then that's one of the reasons for getting such a big sensor. I guess I'll just have to do some tests and maybe that's what this is about for me - desperately trying NOT to get impressed. The new tech certainly has me interested.

    (Not really nervous by the way, Guy; just trying to avoid being my often clumsy self and upsetting people needlessly.)
    Well heck I have a 7900 right here let me make a print and take a look at it
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    You'd be hard pressed to do so on this forum. Only those who make it very clear they are just goading someone raise flags around here. Otherwise we're all in it to learn and discuss.
    Exactly I learn everyday here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Jack - When you get a chance would you try and print a higher ISO sensor plus shot/or crop at full resolution to see how well they print up?
    So I just finished processing and printing up the two high ISO S+ images Terry is referring to. I re-processed both files in C1 at base settings and in color with no added NR over my basic for ISO 50 files, which is extremely low and thus represents a "worst case" scenario for print noise in these examples. I printed the files at native size at 360 PPI, then uprezzed both to 4x enlargements (21x28 prints) and printed them out. It's difficult to render how a print looks visually on the web, so you'll just have to take my verbal descriptions -- and any of you are welcome to stop by my office and view the prints for yourselves to confirm my findings. Here they are, offered FWIW:

    ISO 1600 S+ at native size: The noise is essentially not visible. It resembles what you'd see in a typical 35mm 4x6 print from ISO 100 print film. Seriously, that good.

    ISO 1600 S+ at 4x enlargement: Here you do get a hint of noise in the smooth-toned areas. I would say it is reminiscent of the same 35mm ISO 100 print film enlarged to an 8x10 print -- again, impressively good.

    ISO 3200 S+ at native size: Here you have visible, but subtle noise, some very small colored dotting visible in smooth-toned backgrounds. I would say this is reminiscent of 35mm ISO 400 print film at a 4x6 print size.

    ISO 3200 S+ at 4x enlargement. Here we have more visible noise, larger colored dots slightly visible in some of the more textured areas. I would say this is probably stronger noise than the 35mm ISO 400 film at an 8x10 enlargement, but not nearly as much as say 35mm ISO 800 print film was at 4x6 if that makes sense.

    So I reprocessed the ISO 3200 shot with NR boosted in C1 to 35/50. Here I printed another 4x enlargement and the result is back to about what 35mm ISO 100 (or maybe 200) print film showed at 8x10 enlargements --- IOW, VERY VERY clean...

    Seriously folks, I am impressed. I will not hesitate to use 3200 S+ if I need it, and certainly will use 1600 S+ without hesitation even for relatively large prints.
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Oh dear, this is getting dangerous!

    Convinced myself that the IQ backs were all hype but reading Jack and Guy's reviews has get me thinking.........

    Since getting my P65+ I've been wanting to shoot my Canon kit less and less and the type of work I now shoot is 99% interiors and product work.

    This got me thinking today on a shoot...... do I still really need the Canon gear? Now the IQ180 shoots at 20MP in sensor+ mode its basically like the Canon. I don't ever use AF and always shoot with a tripod. I use an Arca M2 for as much as I can but the Canon does come in handy for the quick, simple or dirty factory jobs.

    So my question to Guy and Jack (any anyone else with a point of view) do you feel an IQ180 attached to a DF in sensor+ can replace the Canon which means freeing the money for the P65+ to IQ180 upgrade?

    I personally can't think of one job I've shot in the last 12 months, from product cut-outs to set build studio shots that couldn't be shot with a DF over the Canon.

    What is your feeling having used the IQ/DF combo.

  17. #117
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    I did it before with just the DF and I shoot everything from PR to whatever and I'm going solo again and sell the Sonys off. No question you can get it done but more care is needed.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Here is my experience with Leaf Aptus-II 12, the same sensor as IQ180 (correct me if I am wrong), in studio test or highlight/shadow recovery:



    Full review :

    http://www.akelstudio.com/blog/leaf-...els-that-count
    Last edited by AKElstudio; 16th May 2011 at 12:52.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by AKElstudio View Post
    Here is my experience with Leaf Aptus-II 12, the same sensor as IQ180 (correct me if I am wrong), in studio test:
    Hi Alex, thanks for your comment however I don't think the studio side of it comes into question as my P65+ smokes my Canon files and being tethered in the studio kind of voids the IQ features. What I'm more interested in is how a DF works with the IQ as a substitute for the Canons in sensor+?

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    So my question to Guy and Jack (any anyone else with a point of view) do you feel an IQ180 attached to a DF in sensor+ can replace the Canon which means freeing the money for the P65+ to IQ180 upgrade?
    Did you read my post #2, the S+ review part in this thread? Simple answer is, "Yes." More complex answer is, "The AF works great too!"
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Did you read my post #2, the S+ review part in this thread? Simple answer is, "Yes." More complex answer is, "The AF works great too!"
    Think I might have a talk to my dealer to find out the cost to upgrade tomorrow....... just out on interest.

  22. #122
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Jack,
    Thanks for doing the prints. That is really good news. I'm really looking forward to getting mine. New lens should arrive soon and hard drives have plenty of space (I think - ) too bad I only have a quad core

  23. #123
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    too bad I only have a quad core


    Yeah, I could say it but won't! Seriously, for what I shoot -- and now that my wallet is lighter than empty -- I can afford to be a little patient with my 3+ year old Mac Pro LOLOL! I will however be upgrading to the next gen as mine is getting long in the tooth for a computer. But on the upside, even though it's slower than the new stuff at least it still runs smoothly and reliably!
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  24. #124
    HCHeyerdahl
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I did it before with just the DF and I shoot everything from PR to whatever and I'm going solo again and sell the Sonys off. No question you can get it done but more care is needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Did you read my post #2, the S+ review part in this thread? Simple answer is, "Yes." More complex answer is, "The AF works great too!"
    Sorry my ignorant question, but I just need to get this streight for myself:

    Should I understand this such that an IQ/Phase combo using sensor+ can be used hand held "more or less" like a 24mp DSLR/ Leica S2? I mean both image quality and handling wise?

    Chris

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by HCHeyerdahl View Post
    Sorry my ignorant question, but I just need to get this streight for myself:

    Should I understand this such that an IQ/Phase combo using sensor+ can be used hand held "more or less" like a 24mp DSLR/ Leica S2? I mean both image quality and handling wise?

    Chris
    In theory, certainly. With an IQ180 you'd be dealing with the pixel binning that would essentially provide the rough equivalent of 10.4um and higher sensitivity (I know that the pixel binning algorithms don't quite equate exactly to the simple aggregation of 4 pixels but it would be close enough), both of which should make handheld shooting results somewhat better than you'd get from regular 24mp DSLRs. It'll be interesting to get some real world feedback - the theory at least sounds promising.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    In theory, certainly. With an IQ180 you'd be dealing with the pixel binning that would essentially provide the rough equivalent of 10.4um and higher sensitivity (I know that the pixel binning algorithms don't quite equate exactly to the simple aggregation of 4 pixels but it would be close enough), both of which should make handheld shooting results somewhat better than you'd get from regular 24mp DSLRs. It'll be interesting to get some real world feedback - the theory at least sounds promising.
    In fact, it should be in theory much more hand-heldable than a 24 MP DSLR, because the resulting binned pixels will be much larger - the larger the pixel, the easier to hand held. Of course, that's only theory and it doesn't take into account the size/weight of the DF plus lenses and, especially, the size/weight and energy of the mirror/shutter mechanism, which has much more inertial movement and slap than the smaller mirror/shutter found on a DSLR. These factors can affect handholding more than pixel size, so in the end I'd say we are about equal between a 24 MP DSLR and a 20 MP binned MF digital camera...
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    In fact, it should be in theory much more hand-heldable than a 24 MP DSLR, because the resulting binned pixels will be much larger - the larger the pixel, the easier to hand held.
    Is it not equally correct that if one downsize or crop an 80MP sized file to 24MP the camera will in theory be equally handholdable as a 24MP camera? Of course with a lens providing same field of view. Of if not, why would that not be correct?

    Thanks!

    Regards
    Anders

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    Is it not equally correct that if one downsize or crop an 80MP sized file to 24MP the camera will in theory be equally handholdable as a 24MP camera? Of course with a lens providing same field of view. Of if not, why would that not be correct?

    Thanks!

    Regards
    Anders
    Hi Anders, it is partially correct - other than pixel number, pixel size and therefore pixel density plays an important role in the equation (the circle of confusion). Thus, a larger sensor with the same number of pixels is more hand-holdable than the same pixel on a smaller sensor...
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Best way here to describe this the main factors working with MF cams is this . They really are the same weight and bulk as most Pro 35mm with a 24-70 lens on it. So once you get the shape or design style of the cam comfortable within yourself this will be equal. The stuff you can't cheat are the physics. Large sensor equals more visible movement. Larger mirror creates more vibration, larger sensor equals less DOF and maintaining higher shutter speeds to combat the first two. So in effect you need to maintain a good shutter speed but also at the same time a good aperture to maintain good DOF.

    All the rest of the chatter out there that you can't shoot MF handheld is a bunch of crock. I do it all the time on jobs all the time.

    The trick is maintaining a good shutter speed to get over the vibration of the mirror and a large sensor that shows bigger movements. But maintaining a 1/60 of a second is normal for me and even squeeze off 1/30 given all the right factors. Look at this thread with Sensor Plus in action. I was shooting all handheld until I got to the runway but even than I am shooting in low light with a 300mm lens on a monopod.

    Folks this comes down to cheating the physics and YOUR abilities. Nothing more.

    Read this http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379


    My advice here never listen to someone that says you can't do it here. You can do anything you want as long as you understand it and know how to work around it. Sure there are limits no question, you just need to get better as a shooter. That stuff takes time and anyone thinking they can pick up a MF and go to town is in for surprise right away. Its a different ballgame and you need to learn the ropes but it is so worth the effort and that is the key. Effort versus output. The more effort and work you put in the better the results. MF is work, this is not play time.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    +1 handheld

    Still learning in using my DF with P65+. I'm using it mostly handheld when shooting people in small villages in Hainan. Having it with my Canon 1Ds III
    and they seem to about the same size and same weight. Ofcourse with Canon I can use my 1.2 class when very low light.

    Trying to move more and more to just DF's use.

    I'm pleased with what I get using DF also just handheld. Also I've made some bigger prints with 9900 and still happy.

    Kirmo

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Some helping lenses here in Phase . The 150 2.8 is brilliant wide open, also the 80 LS at 2.8 or D. The 300 is also very good at 4.5

    These lenses you can shoot very close to wide open if not wide open and maintain some speed when your light hits a critical low.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Some helping lenses here in Phase . The 150 2.8 is brilliant wide open, also the 80 LS at 2.8 or D. The 300 is also very good at 4.5

    These lenses you can shoot very close to wide open if not wide open and maintain some speed when your light hits a critical low.
    Indeed, Guy's mentioned glass is great, and I'd add the 55 LS to the glass that helps shooting wide open, too. I also use the DF hand held all the time in the studio and out, and with the caveats Guy mentioned a couple of posts above you can use it just fine. Of course, you'll never be able to shoot where you'd be able to go with a M9 at 1600 ISO and the Noctilux wide open, or where you'd use a D3 at 3200 ISO and a 50 f1.2 wide open, but save for extreme situation I find that you can hand hold successfully with MF anywhere in daylight, anywhere with flash, anywhere inside with enough illumination (Guy's runways are a great example of that); of course, MF has never intended to go where a Leica shooter with a Nocti could, and that holds true with digital as well - but saying that you can only use MF on a support is way off IMO.
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Well said Veri
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by HCHeyerdahl View Post
    Should I understand this such that an IQ/Phase combo using sensor+ can be used hand held "more or less" like a 24mp DSLR/ Leica S2? I mean both image quality and handling wise?

    Chris
    Basically yes, but the S2 is probably not a good comparison. In the the case of the S2 we have different ergonomics, more DSLR-like and less MF-like, so for some that may impact hand-holdability positively or negatively. Next we have 35 MP in the S2 which should give it an image edge over the IQ180's 20 binned pixels.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    In theory, certainly. With an IQ180 you'd be dealing with the pixel binning that would essentially provide the rough equivalent of 10.4um and higher sensitivity (I know that the pixel binning algorithms don't quite equate exactly to the simple aggregation of 4 pixels but it would be close enough), both of which should make handheld shooting results somewhat better than you'd get from regular 24mp DSLRs. It'll be interesting to get some real world feedback - the theory at least sounds promising.
    I think it is more than theory, at least for me. I sold off my Canon's when my P65+ arrived because the P65+ 15MP binned was very close to the image detail of the 1Ds3's AA'd CMOS @ 22MP. Then color from the Phase was clearly superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    In fact, it should be in theory much more hand-heldable than a 24 MP DSLR, because the resulting binned pixels will be much larger - the larger the pixel, the easier to hand held. Of course, that's only theory and it doesn't take into account the size/weight of the DF plus lenses and, especially, the size/weight and energy of the mirror/shutter mechanism, which has much more inertial movement and slap than the smaller mirror/shutter found on a DSLR. These factors can affect handholding more than pixel size, so in the end I'd say we are about equal between a 24 MP DSLR and a 20 MP binned MF digital camera...
    I think this is correct -- the larger net binned pixel helps holdability, but the physical size, shape and weight of MF makes it less efficient to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders_HK View Post
    Is it not equally correct that if one downsize or crop an 80MP sized file to 24MP the camera will in theory be equally handholdable as a 24MP camera? Of course with a lens providing same field of view. Of if not, why would that not be correct?
    Not really -- at least in theory . While it's a good assumption, the problem is interpolation algorithms. A piece of black detail inside a white field that is smaller than a single pixel will render the single pixel black. Once it's larger than a single pixel, raw conversion algorithms will render neighboring pixels in shades of gray, essentially "fuzzing" the single black pixel. When we bin, we get 1 square pixel out of 4, so a larger pixel area, and a black that fits inside the new 4-square will render as black. However, when we downsample the same 4 into 1 new one, some of the original would have been gray, and the grays can be (at least partially) averaged into the new single downsampled pixel rendering it a shade of gray instead of black. This can work well for averaging out some noise, but at the same time it averages out detail so there's a detail/ISO tradeoff. Generalizing without any empirical support, I'd say we gain 2 stops of ISO with a 4x bin and retain a bit more native detail, where we maybe gain 1 stop ISO and loose a little of the retained detail with a 4x downsample.

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Hi Anders, it is partially correct - other than pixel number, pixel size and therefore pixel density plays an important role in the equation (the circle of confusion). Thus, a larger sensor with the same number of pixels is more hand-holdable than the same pixel on a smaller sensor...
    Exactly. Basically, when we view a digital image at 100% view, we are using pixel pitch as our new definition of CoC whether we wanted to or not. It only goes back to some realistic value when we print or downsample for web view; and the size we print or the amount we downsample for web directly affects the result.

    So in a nutshell: I will offer a partial "YES." I think the IQ180's 20MP of binning can replace a high-end DSLR as respects overall image quality, and in most cases it will be superior due to superior color and usable DR. (Flamesuit on, but I do believe MF offers more "usable" DR than DSLR's, contrary to what the strict engineering definition of "DR" is.) However it can NOT replace the DSLR capture rate, AF speed or extremely high-ISO work -- IOW if you're a sports/action or ultra low-light photographer, the modern DSLR still reigns king IMHO.
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    However, it can NOT replace the DSLR capture rate, AF speed or extremely high-ISO work -- IOW if you're a sports/action or ultra low-light photographer, the modern DSLR still reigns king IMHO.
    Well that's me convinced.... I don't need any of that in your list.

    Have emailed my dealer about upgrade cost and going to put all my Canon gear on ebay.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Yes if your not pushing the high ISO, Frame rates or long glass needs than having a DSLR can be a moot point. My big reason for even having the Sony's is risk factors and security reasons. Plus just being lazy. LOL

    Basically just don't want to take the Phase on a certain gig for theft and damage reasons, guess that is why you have insurance and loaded for bear on that one so really not a big issue . So basically the Sony is a throw away in a sense.

    But if i move to a 160 it's gone. 15 mpx sensor plus is perfect for me.

    One cool feature that never gets talked about is in the ISO selection you can go from a full res shot to a sensor plus shot in about 3 seconds . I have done this a couple times myself.
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    One cool feature that never gets talked about is in the ISO selection you can go from a full res shot to a sensor plus shot in about 3 seconds . I have done this a couple times myself.
    Actually with the new IQ touch-tech, I can do that in about 1 second!
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    I was being generous. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    No need to be, even with my fat fingers the new back is intuitive, fast and easy to use. Seriously, you tap the ISO button, finger scroll to your desired regular or S+ ISO and tap it, you done. It's as easy and fast as opening an app on your iPhone.

    Edit: I really don't mean to sound like a fanboy, but this new UI tech is a big and very real improvement for field shooters...
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    No need to be, even with my fat fingers the new back is intuitive, fast and easy to use. Seriously, you tap the ISO button, finger scroll to your desired regular or S+ ISO and tap it, you done. It's as easy and fast as opening an app on your iPhone.

    Edit: I really don't mean to sound like a fanboy, but this new UI tech is for real the best thing we've ever had in photography...

    Gear slut. Yea looks who talking
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Gear slut? Moi??? Seriously, I am down to the Phase kit and a GH2 kit, and I may now sell off the GH2 kit!!!
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Know the feeling bud i can just start packing my Sony's now. I need to have a MAJOR gear sale here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    This is probably a good place to reiterate a few considerations:

    1) The new UI tech is great for field shooters, but may not be necessary -- or worth the cost delta -- for shooters that shoot mostly tethered in the studio.

    2) The 80MP sensor does have some newer tech in it compared to the last generation 40 and 60, this may or may not be necessary for your type of shooting. Not sure yet if the Leaf 80MP sensor and the Phase 80MP sensors are identical -- they appear for now to be the same base chip with some different onboard processing capabilities.

    3) While 80MP of direct digital capture has definitely upped the game and set a new standard for digital imaging, the last current generations of 40 through 60 MP Leaf, Hassy and Phase backs are still all delivering outstanding image quality.

    4) Phase has made the upgrade path a lot more tolerable -- and hence the decision more difficult -- with their rather generous trade-in program; without it, I'd probably still be shooting a P45+
    Jack
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  44. #144
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Thanks for all the feedback. This is really helpful, and I feel I am gaining more insight into my long term upgrade question. I have seen and handled the S2 and really liked it, but it seems I have to take a serious look at Phase.

    Chris

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Some good news I heard from dealers they are receiving customer backs today. Yahoo
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Not really -- at least in theory . While it's a good assumption, the problem is interpolation algorithms. A piece of black detail inside a white field that is smaller than a single pixel will render the single pixel black. Once it's larger than a single pixel, raw conversion algorithms will render neighboring pixels in shades of gray, essentially "fuzzing" the single black pixel. When we bin, we get 1 square pixel out of 4, so a larger pixel area, and a black that fits inside the new 4-square will render as black. However, when we downsample the same 4 into 1 new one, some of the original would have been gray, and the grays can be (at least partially) averaged into the new single downsampled pixel rendering it a shade of gray instead of black. This can work well for averaging out some noise, but at the same time it averages out detail so there's a detail/ISO tradeoff. Generalizing without any empirical support, I'd say we gain 2 stops of ISO with a 4x bin and retain a bit more native detail, where we maybe gain 1 stop ISO and loose a little of the retained detail with a 4x downsample.
    Thanks Jack and Vieri now makes perfect sense!

    Jack, Apart from the UI which is merely a UI. Could you please further detail the advancemend in image quality matters of the IQ180? E.g. color palette, finer gradation of colors, DR with shadow and highlight performance/recovery?

    Thanks!

    Regards
    Anders

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Hi Jack,

    Since you had the P45+ before. How would you describe the quality of pictures has improved? I think at one point you mentioned the color accuracy has greatly improved. I often found that the color out of the P45+ required some adjustment especially when I use ND or polarizing filter.

    I had a short time with the IQ180 and felt that the focus mask will help me tremendously with my Techno setup. I can probably buy the 645DF with it since the discount on the camera and 80mm lens is huge, but I may not use it much.

    Thanks,

    Yat

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    My theory and i could be all wet here since I am not the scientist type. But i have been shooting Phase from the 9 micron sensors down to the new 5.2 and at every step of the way going down to the IQ 180 in micron size i have noticed more DR in each back and along with smoother tonal graduation going across the color spectrum and seems to me just smoother files as we keep going down in microns. Also credit to Phase engineers for building great algorithms along the way for each back. Case in point when I first tested the P40+ back when i was not impressed with the color palette at all. My skies where too cyan. The second time I tested it was better but my P30+ looked better at the time. Finally when Dave from CI brought me the P40+ to our Oregon workshop Phase finally nailed the color palette and than I wanted to buy it and did.
    So looking at these files from the IQ 180 it seems to me a nicer graduation of color across the board and smoother looking files and more accurate color. Now the detail is just flat out scary as well. So looks like Phase did a real nice job here and bumped it up a level. Now I still love the P65 and P40 files no question and getting one again but this does look very good. I need more time with the 180 as well and shoot some more with it to confirm more of my feeling about it. I do think as these are getting delivered in the next coming days we will see a lot of happy campers. Get you hard drives ready

    I'm sitting here figuring out how to get another IQ 180 in my hands to test more. Damn thing is addicting for sure once you start working with the new tech.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Hi Yat,

    Good questions, but the answers are a bit long:

    Quote Originally Posted by yatlee View Post
    Since you had the P45+ before. How would you describe the quality of pictures has improved? I think at one point you mentioned the color accuracy has greatly improved. I often found that the color out of the P45+ required some adjustment especially when I use ND or polarizing filter.
    There was a pretty significant bump in color accuracy moving from the P45+ to the P65+. My experience was the P45+ was very accurate in studio situations, but had more trouble with outdoor lightlng at varying altitudes such as a landscape photographer regularly encounters. I had to spend time tweaking to get vegetation greens looking good while keeping the skies blue and not shifting to cyan. When color editor was introduced in C1 it became my immediate best friend with the P45+ files...

    Enter the P65+ and a lot of that went away, giving us closer to correct hues with standard conversion processing. I mainly used color editor for creative enhancements to color. With the P65+ we also gained in fine detail rendering, and then in what I'll call color and tonal "smoothness." It's hard to describe until you see it, but when you see it, you know it -- there were smoother transitions between colors and smoother tonal transitions within the same hue family. I mentioned in the main review that most of us just started saying the files were more "film-like" for lack of a better explanation. Also, virtually ever shooter agreed that the P65+ files *and* prints looked less "digital" than their predecessors.

    With the IQ180 the color is another level improved, at least for outdoor shooting. It seems more accurate straight out of the gate, especially notable in subtle greens and blues. There is clearly more detail than the P65+ has -- which in itself is remarkable -- and we can question the need for it in all except the largest prints, but it does seem to move the tonal and hue smoothness up to the next level over what the (excellent) P65+ delivered. I have not printed a lot of my IQ180 files yet, so am reluctant to say too much more until I print more of the files. What I will say is my initial impression is another level up on smoother colors and tones in prints to the point of them appearing almost liquid. I can definitely see the difference in a P65+ print and an IQ180 print as respects color and tonal smoothness, but I have a difficult time quantifying it and want to do some more homework. It may be that the added resolution helps with this, I do not know -- but one thing for certain is you definitely gain significant crop capabilities with 80MP.

    Finally, DR has stepped up incrementally with each back as well. I estimated 1/2 to 2/3rds stop usable gain between the P45+ and P65+, and now I'd give the IQ180 another 1/2 stop or so in the DR department. However, the IQ180 gets even more with the shadow recovery slider in C1 since the low tones hold together so well when pushed. I suspect this does have to do with the added resolution combined with improved technology in the new 80MP chip.


    I had a short time with the IQ180 and felt that the focus mask will help me tremendously with my Techno setup. I can probably buy the 645DF with it since the discount on the camera and 80mm lens is huge, but I may not use it much.

    Thanks,

    Yat
    I do believe focus mask on the IQ backs will become the tech cam shooters immediate new best friend! Seriously, it works extremely well.

    Re the DF body. I would get one and at least a basic lens or two. The reason goes back to my review comments re hand-holdability, especially in Sensor Plus ISO modes. As a tech shooter, you will not be disappointed, and moreover likely appreciate, the performance from all of the LS lenses. I own the 55, 80 and 110 and they all render beautifully.

    Hope that helps,

    PS: I am heading into Yosemite today to shoot. I will for sure be printing up some larger prints and will come back with more commentary on color and tone accuracy and smoothness.
    Jack
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  50. #150
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Jack,
    How much is the color difference between the P45+ and the P65+ color do you think is simply the change from Kodak to Dalsa?

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