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Thread: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Jack,
    How much is the color difference between the P45+ and the P65+ color do you think is simply the change from Kodak to Dalsa?
    Probably a lot of it, but I do feel the smaller pixel pitch is equally involved in the smoothness...
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Well there is a noticeable difference between the Kodak and the Dalsa sensors. One word Dalsa is "smoother"

    I agree with Jack as well the pixel pitch and DR increase has a lot to do with it.
    Not to say the Kodak is bad but just different and i call it crunchier.
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Probably a lot of it, but I do feel the smaller pixel pitch is equally involved in the smoothness...
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Well there is a noticeable difference between the Kodak and the Dalsa sensors. One word Dalsa is "smoother"

    I agree with Jack as well the pixel pitch and DR increase has a lot to do with it.
    Not to say the Kodak is bad but just different and i call it crunchier.
    Pixel pitch (and pixel count, of course) in a Bayer sensor definitely play a role in color accuracy and, more than that, color smoothness: for the same area of image, you have more pixel available to define colors and color transitions, and this improves smoothness of transitions and color accuracy as well. For example, imagine having to reproduce a color spectrum card or hue card (one with continuously changing colors, not those with squares or the like) with a 10x10 pixel sensor: due to interpolation (and of course to the low pixel count itself), you will end up with a very inaccurate result; imagine increasing the pixel number per same area to twice that, and you will get better accuracy; and so on up to today's 80 MP... this is why we all found the P65+ to give more accurate colors; I think that we like to define that as "film like" colors, because in (low ISO) color film there is practically no interpolation and no "gaps" between different colors, and this is what our eye is used to. Higher pixel count backs bring us closer and closer to the point where the "gap" between pixel becomes irrelevant in order to define the colors and the transitions between them with enough accuracy to reproduce the colors of the image subject seamlessly for all purposes, even on large or huge prints.

    Sorry for the low accuracy and low "smoothness" of my explanation above - I hope this makes some sense anyway
    Vieri Bottazzini
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    has anyone done a several shot pano or stitch with one of these babies? I'd like to know how the pano software can handle the file size

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    So got in to Yosemite for a few hours today with the IQ180. Valley was magic -- light was constantly changing, light dusting of snow, mixed Sun, clouds, light rain and snow, green grass, the dogwoods are blooming and the falls are flowing. Anyway, here is a quickly processed (on my laptop) cliche shot from Tunnel View just to give you an idea what it was like. 55LS, 1/80 @ f12, ISO 35, processed in C1:



    And for some reason I just felt motivated to try it in B&W. Again, all on my laptop, and all done with C1's B&W tool:



    I can't wait to do some light selective editing on this one and print it up
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    That's a dynamite B&W, Jack.

    But please stop flaunting that IQ180. I haven't got mine yet! (Color me green.)
    Bill

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Pixel pitch (and pixel count, of course) in a Bayer sensor definitely play a role in color accuracy and, more than that, color smoothness: for the same area of image, you have more pixel available to define colors and color transitions, and this improves smoothness of transitions and color accuracy as well. For example, imagine having to reproduce a color spectrum card or hue card (one with continuously changing colors, not those with squares or the like) with a 10x10 pixel sensor: due to interpolation (and of course to the low pixel count itself), you will end up with a very inaccurate result; imagine increasing the pixel number per same area to twice that, and you will get better accuracy; and so on up to today's 80 MP... this is why we all found the P65+ to give more accurate colors; I think that we like to define that as "film like" colors, because in (low ISO) color film there is practically no interpolation and no "gaps" between different colors, and this is what our eye is used to. Higher pixel count backs bring us closer and closer to the point where the "gap" between pixel becomes irrelevant in order to define the colors and the transitions between them with enough accuracy to reproduce the colors of the image subject seamlessly for all purposes, even on large or huge prints.

    Sorry for the low accuracy and low "smoothness" of my explanation above - I hope this makes some sense anyway
    We can consider what Leaf has made to same generation sensors. What I was told by Leaf is that the 40 & 56MP sensors compared to their prior generation 28/33MP sensors present an overall improvement in terms of color saturation (better RGB filters). Thus improvements in bright colors where the higher saturation allows them to create ICC profiles that are smoother and with better, more subtle gradations. Also that the higher resolution contributes to finer gradations and a more "film like" look, which thus assumably for a given print size and viewing distance lets one experience a finer "grain/pixel size".

    I would guess also P1 have similar improvements in their Dalsa sensors in 40 and 60MP backs. Comparing raw files from the 56 and 80MP Leaf's to my 28MP, colors appear incrementally improved in the 56MP but as if a bigger step is in the 56 to 80MP, albeit in part that might be due to the higher resolution etc per above. Thus I would gather that the 80MP backs are additional steps in improvements of both color and gradations. I much appreciate more info from you guys who use them.

    Let us at same time bear in mind that Leaf backs already in earlier generations were considered more "film like" and color accurate than the P1 backs with Kodak sensors. Perhaps the use of Dalsa and acquiring of Leaf thus had something to do with this?

    Regards
    Anders

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Have to say Jack I really like the B&W!
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    That's a dynamite B&W, Jack.

    But please stop flaunting that IQ180. I haven't got mine yet! (Color me green.)
    Bill
    Me too Bill. One good thing I got to shoot it for a whole day and that made me feel pretty good but I am going a little stir crazy for one in any flavor. The tech is just nice as can be. Frankly not sure where they go from here. We don't need more MPX
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Bill and Don,

    Thanks -- I liked the B&W too. I'm going to work on it more tomorrow when back at my main machine and print it up. I suspect it could maybe get a frame and a space on the wall
    Jack
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Me too Bill. One good thing I got to shoot it for a whole day and that made me feel pretty good but I am going a little stir crazy for one in any flavor. The tech is just nice as can be. Frankly not sure where they go from here. We don't need more MPX
    And we found out how weather resistant it is after all the drooling....
    Don Libby
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    I'm not looking...I'm not looking...I'm not looking!

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    I looked and I'm hooked and now we are all broke. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Very nice image Jack! Any further comments about shooting with it compared to the 65 in a "real life" situation?

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Well I think I sticking to my P65+. Just received an email from my dealer and to upgrade to the IQ180 with a DF and SK80mm LS its going to cost me $31,000.

    So much for the generous upgrade promotion as I estimated more in the $20,000 region. I could employ an assistant for a couple of years to hold my laptop and have an ever bigger screen then the IQ's for that sort of money.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Gareth, that sounds a bit too high a quote - your dealer should give you 65% off the price of the new back, and the DF +80mm should be around 4-5000 US or less if bought with a new back...
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Gareth, that sounds a bit too high a quote - your dealer should give you 65% off the price of the new back, and the DF +80mm should be around 4-5000 US or less if bought with a new back...
    That is what I thought (hoped) but not the case for me.

    Oh well, Phases/my dealers loss and saved me joining Guy's ski mask knitting club.

    (I'm not based in the US so unfortunately can't use Doug or Steve)

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    That is what I thought (hoped) but not the case for me.

    Oh well, Phases/my dealers loss and saved me joining Guy's ski mask knitting club.

    (I'm not based in the US so unfortunately can't use Doug or Steve)
    Where are you based, if I may ask? I am based in Turkey and still get the promotion...
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Where are you based, if I may ask? I am based in Turkey and still get the promotion...
    UK

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    UK
    Have you tried to contact Phase Denmark directly? That might help - I don't see why they shouldn't honor the deal in the UK as well. Otherwise, you can try any other EU distributor/dealer, you can PM me for the italian dealer's info (I know for a fact that he honors the deal).
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    That does not sound correct. I would check around
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    has anyone done a several shot pano or stitch with one of these babies? I'd like to know how the pano software can handle the file size
    I've done some panos and flat stitches and used CS5's photomerge tool. No handling problems (on a laptop) it just takes a bit longer compared to smaller files

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    PTGui, 20 or 30 P65 files. No problem. Still quite fast for the huge files.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    So I worked the B&W above up a little more and printed it. In a word, WOW! It looks great to be sure, but it also has an elevated level of tonality and depth -- not sure how to describe it, but I'd call it a bit more "glow" than before.

    I think I'll offer this one up in the gallery:

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Jack, I told you it was a great shot already.
    Now STOP FLAUNTING THAT BACK!

    ps you did process it awfully well.....

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    Now STOP FLAUNTING THAT BACK!
    I CAN'T STOP!!!!

    (And thank you!)
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Gareth, that sounds a bit too high a quote - your dealer should give you 65% off the price of the new back, and the DF +80mm should be around 4-5000 US or less if bought with a new back...
    The IQ series upgrade pricing changed at the end of March over here. They adjusted the trade in values to be in line with the amount of Megapixels of the Phase One model, so a P65+=60% trade in value,P45+ = 39%, etc. . Also you are right the DF bundle when purchased with an upgrade is $5k.

    Also Jack , Passing Storm is great. I can only imagine how it looks printed large.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by lance_schad View Post

    Also Jack , Passing Storm is great. I can only imagine how it looks printed large.
    Thanks Lance! Let me know if you want a copy for your offices
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    That really is a superb image Jack. Lots of drama and can see you've used restraint and sensitivity to provide wonderful balance.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    So I worked the B&W above up a little more and printed it. In a word, WOW! It looks great to be sure, but it also has an elevated level of tonality and depth -- not sure how to describe it, but I'd call it a bit more "glow" than before.

    I think I'll offer this one up in the gallery:

    Awesome b&w Jack! The depth in this image fantastic. Are the foreground trees backlit?

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    So I worked the B&W above up a little more and printed it. In a word, WOW! It looks great to be sure, but it also has an elevated level of tonality and depth -- not sure how to describe it, but I'd call it a bit more "glow" than before.

    I think I'll offer this one up in the gallery:

    All I can say is WOW! Great job on the BW conversion, great shot. I hope you have a lot of room left on that wall, it looks like you and your new IQ180 will need it
    Vieri Bottazzini
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Amazing shot, Jack! Especially like how you kept the delicate light on the front trees. Ansel would be proud of that one ;-)

    Cheers, -Peter

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Here is my first IQ180 image with virtually no processing....I have much to learn in that arena.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    First IQ180 image.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by cs750 View Post
    First IQ180 image.
    So what is your opinion so far compared to the P65+?

    Worth the investment?

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    Awesome b&w Jack! The depth in this image fantastic. Are the foreground trees backlit?
    Thank you everybody! Ed, the Sun was mostly behind clouds, but would have been almost up to overhead and to the right, so more side than back lit where it could sneak through.
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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Gareth, my best response is that I do not for a second reqret the upgrade; there is an indescribeable beauty of the images which I rarely was able to get with the P65+. I barely know how to use it at the moment and need much work on getting the most from my processing. I am interested in a technical camera and I believe the IQ180 is going to open up new vistas there. Meanwhile, I have much room for growth with the DF645. I will try to post some more images as soon as I get more time.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    My P65+ tradein: Dave at Capture Integration took possession of my very low mileage P65+ (about 5000 actuations) Wednesday of this week when I picked up the IQ180; so, those who might be interested should be in touch with Dave. Charles

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Jack - Splendid image and workup! Demands a studious careful viewing.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Evening Shadows II: The only thing done to this image was to use the brighten slider and sharpen some in converting the image to this jpeg. The image was made using 645DF 80mm, f/11, 1/8s ISO 35. Charles

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Jack, I want to chime in and agree that your Passing Storm image (both color & B & W) image is wonderful! Charles

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    One More IQ180 Image with minimum processing: 80mm, 1/15s, f/11, IS0 35, 645DF. Evening Shadows III. Only processing was: Shadow Slider 25 and some sharpening in converting to jpeg. Comments on what you would have done in processing would be much appreciated (I know several things I might do...but wanted to get these images posted with as little processing as possible). Charles

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by cs750 View Post
    One More IQ180 Image with minimum processing: 80mm, 1/15s, f/11, IS0 35, 645DF. Evening Shadows III. Only processing was: Shadow Slider 25 and some sharpening in converting to jpeg. Comments on what you would have done in processing would be much appreciated (I know several things I might do...but wanted to get these images posted with as little processing as possible). Charles
    I think this is a great candidate for a minor exposure drop followed by a low % HDR using the HDR via LCC in Capture One.

    Not to take it into la-la land but to just bring up the light fall off across the subject matter in the bottom right and avoid those shadow areas becoming muddy/visually-undifferentiated.

    Should take under a minute and very little effort to do. I'd suggest starting at -0.3 exposure (from where you are now) and a 15% HDR ("light fall off" slider at 15% after you do the LCC>Analyze). If it's your first time using this technique don't freak out when you push analyze and the image goes nuts - just uncheck "color cast" and turn the fall-off slider down to around 15%.

    Edit: the main point of the 0.3 stop exposure drop would be to prevent those rocks in the center from being blown out. A local "burn" via a quick Local Adjustment Layer would also work for that purpose.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Doug, thanks for your suggestions and I will play with them this evening....unfortunately I have work to do on the "honey do" list, and it is not a good plan for me to let the IQ180 interfere with that right now! Charles
    Last edited by cs750; 20th May 2011 at 10:21. Reason: typo

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    I think this is a great candidate for a minor exposure drop followed by a low % HDR using the HDR via LCC in Capture One.

    Not to take it into la-la land but to just bring up the light fall off across the subject matter in the bottom right and avoid those shadow areas becoming muddy/visually-undifferentiated.

    Should take under a minute and very little effort to do. I'd suggest starting at -0.3 exposure (from where you are now) and a 15% HDR ("light fall off" slider at 15% after you do the LCC>Analyze). If it's your first time using this technique don't freak out when you push analyze and the image goes nuts - just uncheck "color cast" and turn the fall-off slider down to around 15%.

    Edit: the main point of the 0.3 stop exposure drop would be to prevent those rocks in the center from being blown out. A local "burn" via a quick Local Adjustment Layer would also work for that purpose.

    Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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    Well, the HDR method is Great. It is very sad that it does not work for a lot of people. So I can only urge phase to allow two corrections or a different tool for the HDR method.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by cs750 View Post
    Gareth, my best response is that I do not for a second reqret the upgrade; there is an indescribeable beauty of the images which I rarely was able to get with the P65+...
    Jack, I am a bit surprised by this comment on the image quality of the IQ180. I had the impression from your earlier commentary that any image quality improvements that you saw in the IQ180 files compared to the P65 were quite subtle and incremental.
    I do hope you are right, though!

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by cs750 View Post
    My P65+ tradein: Dave at Capture Integration took possession of my very low mileage P65+ (about 5000 actuations) Wednesday of this week when I picked up the IQ180; so, those who might be interested should be in touch with Dave. Charles
    One guess who just received your old back!

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Don, I think you will get much more out of My P65+. I hope you will be very happy with it. I note you show Atlanta as "one of your locations". I can barely handle one location! Some time when you are in Atlanta, and want to explore north Georgia with your camera...give me a call. I have a separate apartment at my rural north Georgia home and maybe we could get in some photography. I warn you though....I will be trying to extract as much as I can learn while you are here. That offer also applies to anyone else from GetDPI. Jack and Guy....are you listening? You need at least one workshop in the southeast. Charles

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by cs750 View Post
    Don, I think you will get much more out of My P65+. I hope you will be very happy with it. I note you show Atlanta as "one of your locations". I can barely handle one location! Some time when you are in Atlanta, and want to explore north Georgia with your camera...give me a call. I have a separate apartment at my rural north Georgia home and maybe we could get in some photography. I warn you though....I will be trying to extract as much as I can learn while you are here. That offer also applies to anyone else from GetDPI. Jack and Guy....are you listening? You need at least one workshop in the southeast. Charles
    Sounds good to me and thank you.

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    Re: Phase One IQ180 Initial Review and Impressions (With pics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by cs750 View Post
    Don, I think you will get much more out of My P65+. I hope you will be very happy with it. I note you show Atlanta as "one of your locations". I can barely handle one location! Some time when you are in Atlanta, and want to explore north Georgia with your camera...give me a call. I have a separate apartment at my rural north Georgia home and maybe we could get in some photography. I warn you though....I will be trying to extract as much as I can learn while you are here. That offer also applies to anyone else from GetDPI. Jack and Guy....are you listening? You need at least one workshop in the southeast. Charles
    Don't have to ask me twice. LoL


    Fun seeing you all getting your new backs. Really happy for all of you and no I'm not jealous but anxious when they start shipping the IQ 160. I would have had a 180 when Jack got his. There was one with my name on it. I assure you though I will be the first to get my model or I'm on the warpath and that is not a pretty sight. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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