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Thread: Alpa 12 TC images

  1. #51
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Natasa you won't need the Kapture group one just get the one from Capture integration for 90 dollars. Save a bundle that way, yes sometimes i am just cheap. LOL
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    As far as I understand, the Sinar backs also stay on, so you don't need an additional cable.

    As for the photos not having "pop", I think there are two factors at play. 1. Since there is so much depth of field, you don't have the sharp/unsharp transition that generally gives a 3D impression. Since everything is sharp, they have more of a point and shoot look. I don't mean that in a disparaging way.
    2. You are looking at tiny images for the web. These are files with a native size of 16x20 inches or larger, and when they are comparably microscopic on our screens (which also can't display particularly fine detail. It is hard to communicate the true sharpness and tonality of medium format images on the web -- in a way, the web is the great equalizer), they just don't usually look all that impressive.
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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Natasa the Leaf system does not use the power up feature like the Phase system. I believe you turn it on and it stays on and uses fans to keep cool. Yair correct me if I am wrong. The Phase system uses a power down wake up system, so when the back is off the Mamiya mount it needs to wake up first reason for the wake up cable. This keeps the back cool without the use of fans.

    I am using the Phase wakeup cable. http://www.captureintegration.com/ph...stom-products/
    The Dalsa sensor is designed so it can be instantly reset after the data was taken off of it.
    The Kodak takes longer to "get rid" of the data and then it needs to be reset before taking the next shot.
    WE DO NOT KEEP THE SENSOR ON, it is just that it is very quick to get ready, hence why we only need one sync cable from lens to back.
    The fans are there for cooling the electronics (RAM, CF read/ write and so on) and mostly to maintain an optimal working temperature when Live Video is in use - this is the reason why you walk into some still life studios and you see Aptus backs that are being left in LV mode all day as it doesn't affect the quality of the images taken after LV.

    Other backs would normally switch LV off automatically after a certain period of time to avoid over heating (and if not, then you'll be advised to let the back cool off a bit before shooting again)

    Hope this is clear enough?

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  4. #54
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Thanks Yair , yes it does get a little confusing on how the different backs operate. Thanks for clearing it up some.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Guy,

    Interesting viewfinder solution! It appears that you are also using the Alpa accessory adapter with spirit level to attach the Zeiss 25/28 viewfinder. Can you see the bubble level through the viewfinder?

    John

  6. #56
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Yes I can and it works fairly good
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Guy, they are schneider lenses, what are they doing different to them?

    BTW I really love your website, so simple, so uncomplicated, can tell at a glance what you do without all the waffle!
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Couple shots from Sedona
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    No lack of DOF with these that's for sure. Looks like a superb handheld landscape kit.

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    As a matter of interest, how are you metering with this setup or going by the amount of sunlight in them, is it sunny f16?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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  11. #61
    Workshop Member Woody Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Guy - Could we see some crops?

    Regards

  12. #62
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    As a matter of interest, how are you metering with this setup or going by the amount of sunlight in them, is it sunny f16?
    Sunny 16. Histo helps also
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Campbell View Post
    Guy - Could we see some crops?

    Regards
    Sure just waiting for my main MacPro to come home today, Than I can do it a little better.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Let's try one for now.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    But the foreground rocks are soft. I need to test and see if i need a shim. Been to busy to test that and this week is not a good one for testing. have another 4 day shoot starting wednesday. I am sure i shot this at F11. The foreground rocks are about 12 ft away
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    See the infinity is sharp as a tack but foreground is not carrying. Now this is probably my fault in focusing
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Not to confuse the subject but this is with the Phase body and new 80mm D lens. This is maybe the most telling reason to go MF . Look at the 100 percent crop. It is so sharp with detail it is scary. Shot at 5.6
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    The other side , my wife is going to kill me for posting this. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    If you notice the critical focus plane is pretty much on her and Dylan the tall kid. My son Jack is a little out of the critical focus. F8 may have been a better choice. 5.6 on MF acts more like 2.8 on 35mm. This is the one downside to MF is carry enough DOF when you need it , you simply have to stop down more.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Your son Jack is the splitting image of his mother. That's the kind of detail I usually get from my 5D.....if the people had completely filled the frame!
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  21. #71
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Exactly Ben, now it is a lot clearer what MF can really do. This stuff is amazing and scary at the same time. No doubt the 5D is a really capable machine but it won't hold water when you get into this MF stuff nor will any 35mm system.

    Yes both my kids are there mother. Obviously i have the weak genes here.LOL
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    you simply have to stop down more.
    The new kids on the block with MF should repeat this as a mantra over and over again. Can't count the images I've shot at f/5.6 that would have been better if stopped down to f/11.

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    On the other hand Guy you're the splitting image of my old boss and I'm afraid that it isn't a compliment, he was a right bastard! However as you aren't a bitter old South African man I assume he doesn't do you justice and not the other way round. I know from your history that you're certainly not as tight fisted as he was!

    Thing is, I've been doing a lot of stitching with my 5D ending up with 39 megapixel images and although there is a lot more detail it really does show that 25 megapixels is very much not double 13 and although the 6 frame stitched image gives me a native 30X15" @ 250DPI, you would expect it to be far far more if you didn't know better. Although there is an increase in the resolution, the story is more in the DR, the depth and most importantly for me, the overall tonality.

    Resolution wise every subject has a specific level of detail that is expected to be resolved by the eye. It's how it resolves that detail after that point that counts.
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  24. #74
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Damn than I am going in for a face lift. LOL

    Yes i only touched on the detail but the DR and other factors are amazing as well.

    The question also is do you need it . For you as a wedding shooter a Nikon /Canon maybe the better options no doubt but I know there are times that MF would be welcome. Done a few weddings myself and for wedding shooters it's a tough call. Not sure you can just go MF only. You can go 35mm only but MF is a tougher system to work in that field.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    As I work with 2 cameras and one permenantly set to iso 1600 with fast lenses wide open...

    I know Marc can make it work in a wedding enviroment but although I would love the detail of these backs for group/portrait work, I don't actually need it, I haven't found the slightest inclination that the clients could tell the difference and as such it wouldn't be a justifiable business decision. My price level at present is capped by my expertise as a wedding photographer and not by the resolution of my 20X16" wall print sales.

    I do some personal work, my Jerusalem project detailed in another thread for example. Although I could kill for the detail, especially for when I need a one shot solution (can't stitch) but am shooting with a 6X12 crop for very big prints. Until I can make sure that these projects are going to convert themselves into profit - especially linked to print sizes above what my present 5D can manage - however incredibly sexy that Alpa looks, and it really does, I'm not making enough to spend that kind of money to spend on equipment if it isn't a solid investment oppotunity.
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 4th August 2008 at 07:38.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    I agree, I do wish the P21 Plus had a screaming ISO 1600 than that for me would completely eliminate the 35mm. I still may get a D700, I have some of the same needs as the wedding shooter sometimes. So i am still debating the purchase of the Nikon D700. Sometimes you just need the speed. I cheated in 35mm and you cheat in MF too. Nothing is perfect and the need for 2 systems does not seem to go away.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    It's only the price that makes us wish that it could!

    BTW given the price of the Alpa for what is a pretty simple design, I'm surprised that companies such as Horseman* and Fotoman haven't jumped on the bandwagon offering similar but cheaper options. The price of 2nd hand backs is getting extremely cheap these days, certainly well within the 'hmmm' factor for any landscape photographer thinking of a 1Ds mkIII, make a cheaper solution and I think there is a market for it.

    Even if Alpa are doing some magic to these lenses, the regular digital Rodenstocks and Schneiders are still world class leading and certainly similar in price to Canon L glass, methinks there is room in the market for those who don't need the expense/automation of the new MF bodies or even the bulk of the older ones.

    *funniest URL in the photographic world - www.horsemanusa.com
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 4th August 2008 at 07:48.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    guy, you are focusing by guessing distance and setting the numbers on the barrel, so the shim would be to see if the infinity setting on the barrel is right?

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Actually Guy, I would be incredibly interested in a resolution shoot out between the P25 and a 1Ds mkIII, L versus digitar. Same megapixels technically. I even know a company that might be interested in making an Alpa 12 TC competitor.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    I think that is correct . I need to talk to Doug and see if he can help me. Either that measure say 10 ft set lens at 10 ft and be wide open and see what I get. If it is on track than fine or shim to adjust. That is what I need to figure out my infinity setting looks very good right now but do I adjust to that or something else.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Actually Guy, I would be incredibly interested in a resolution shoot out between the P25 and a 1Ds mkIII, L versus digitar. Same megapixels technically. I even know a company that might be interested in making an Alpa 12 TC competitor.
    Would be interesting but from the tests I saw of the 1dsMKIII compared to it's own 5D it was not that big a difference. Jack did that test and made me wonder if the 1dsMKIII was worth the upgrade. Jack can further comment on this and I think Doug from CI also ran some tests too.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Guy - thanks on the crops. My experience with a similar setup is that minor issues of focus and shutter speed show up all too clearly because of the sensor's incredible resolving power. These are better than my handheld guestimates - bravo.

    Ben - this issue with the Canon, I believe, is its aggressive AA filter, which is pretty well documented. It won't come close to the mf backs that don't have an AA filter.

    Regards,

    Woody

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    You also have to remember that you are using a 47mm lens...the depth of field is the same as it would be on 35mm and you don't generally expect a 50mm lens to have huge depth of field from foreground to infinity, even if you are stopped down to f/11 or so. There will be more apparent depth of field due to the much wider angle of view on the larger format, but at 100%, it is going to be just as thin as it would be on 35mm.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Thanks Stuart and that is part of the issue. In my head I am thinking wide and that is really not the case. I have to adjust my thinking. Now I want a 24mm. LOL

    Seriously though it really is not a very wide angle and my expectations are off there
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    I will say though when it hits the critical focus it is amazing. So do these lenses justify themselves and there price tags. You bet , I need to just adjust my DOF scale in my head for the 47mm, otherwise I am doing okay with it. Getting good at the guessing
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    It's such a vicious circle. To get more resolution you need bigger sensors. As such to preserve perspective you need a longer lens which you then can't stop down as much because of diffraction. Not so much of a problem for people shooting which I expect is the majority of the uses of these backs but for landscape or architecture it must be a nightmare.

    This was what eventually made me part with LF. To maintain perspective (v.important for me with architecture) I needed longer lenses, to maintain DOF I needed to stop down to f128 by which time I was losing a large portion of the resolution benefit aside from having to use shutter speeds that killed the photo if there was any foliage present, i.e. most of the time. I'm now shooting with a 5D and stitching. To maintain the perpective of a 50mm lens I'm having to use a 100mm due to the wide nature of the stitch. As such I'm shooting at f16 but that isn't that much of a problem for a FF 35mm sensor diffraction wise and I'm refocusing as I go along which works if you're very careful. I also have the ability to use much higher iso's to freeze movement. Best of both worlds if you don't need a one shot solution which most people do....

    I know it sounds silly but it wouldn't be too expensive, if one were to make a rig from 4 DSLR's which were held on a frame so that each one slightly overlapped the field of view of the other and had a trigger to fire all at the same time then you could get all the extra resolution, higher iso and lack of diffraction limitation with the only disadvantage being the bulk and the limitation to subjects that do not preclude set up time.

    Might be fun to play with when 5D's drop to $500 each on the 2nd hand market!
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 4th August 2008 at 12:06.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    My real question on this is how far can you REALLY stop down until you actually SEE issues. i keep hearing F11 but I bet you can do better with these lenses and maybe this 47mm is really okay at F22 and the shorter ones like the 24mm are F11. Now this is a topic i would like to see discussed and tested. What are the real numbers here.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    not sure if this is what you meant, but when the foliage,(or anything else) moves between stitches, you have a problem, so that 4-banger would solve that one.

    same problem with moving subjects using Helicon Focus and several focus brackets, but the "DOF" is amazing, and basically unlimited.

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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    That's why I haven't resorted to Helicon yet, it's bad enough with HDR shooting but with stitching I have to either wait for the foliage to settle down for each shot or hope!
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  40. #90
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    I've been shooting landscape for far more years than I care to remember but could count on one hand the times conditions would have allowed for perfect HDR, let alone stitching.
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    The first shot on this thread: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2789 (didn't want to repost the image) was shot in windy conditions, it's a 7 shot stitch. I waited for the wind to die down, shot at a fast enough speed to freeze the branches (I needed iso 400 due to the polariser and even then it was a 1/25th) and then repositioned the camera and waited for the wind to die down again. Needs a lot of patience and forget HDR, you have seconds in between the gusts of wind. I'm doing another shoot tomorrow which should be far more tricky, lot more leaves and needs to be polarised to hold the sky, I'll add it to the thread when I've got it right!

    Just had a nasty thought, the setting sun will be right behind me, hope I won't have long shadow problems!
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  42. #92
    Natasa Stojsic
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Thanks Stuart and that is part of the issue. In my head I am thinking wide and that is really not the case. I have to adjust my thinking. Now I want a 24mm. LOL

    Seriously though it really is not a very wide angle and my expectations are off there
    As I said before... they should fasten their seat belt if you buy
    few more lenses

    I think personally Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/24 mm XL is better choice although Rodenstock Apo-Sironar digital HR 4.5/28 mm is good too....

    Whatever you decide to buy I would appreciate if you would let me know
    because let's say if you go for 24mm I will buy 28mm or vice versa... that way we can share more experience and the lenses if we need them for particular jobs

  43. #93
    Natasa Stojsic
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I even know a company that might be interested in making an Alpa 12 TC competitor.
    Who may that be... very interesting, care to share?

  44. #94
    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    My real question on this is how far can you REALLY stop down until you actually SEE issues. i keep hearing F11 but I bet you can do better with these lenses and maybe this 47mm is really okay at F22 and the shorter ones like the 24mm are F11. Now this is a topic i would like to see discussed and tested. What are the real numbers here.
    Guy, to answer your question from my own personal testing on that same 47XL you are using, f11 is about the limit. At f16 and beyond, things go to mush pretty dang quickly. On the other hand, they are excellent wide open also, with the peak on the 47mm being at f5.6 in my own tests.

  45. #95
    Super Duper
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Natasa, I can't talk about it in public, I tried to PM you but your box is full, let me know how else to contact you.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  46. #96
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    Actually, Guy teased me with the prospect of making a trim body, no shifts or tilts, that would take the digital lenses and any back via adapter plates.
    if the interest is there I will do it, so please lets start making a wish list of features.


    jm

  47. #97
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    You make cameras jm? Seems to me that using another companies helical mounts might make the job much easier, the fotoman ones are said to be very good and are a fraction of the price of the Alpa's, they also have a very nice rangefinder that works with it.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  48. #98
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    my experience is with the Horseman, who mount a lens/shutter and helical barrel on their own plate.
    I would make the body, per se, so you could use someone else's lens/shutter/focusing barrel/plate. i'll look into the fotoman product.

  49. #99
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    i just checked out fotoman. it looks like he has already filled the bill and the prices are completely reasonable. it may be his is not optimized for a digital back, but the 6x9 looks like the right item

  50. #100
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    Re: Alpha 12 TC images

    As far as I can see Fotoman has no digital integration at all. No plates for MFDB's, maybe that's all that's missing? I have no idea if the cameras themselves need to be made to tighter tolerances due to the need for the back to be perfectly flush more than film needed? Please educate me!

    The 69 and 69S do look good though, if anyone is having a look, click on 'more pictures' for a better view.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

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