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Thread: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Thomas not sure what happened in this for sure since the software showed it in a different order than I loaded it. Never seen that before so those two could be wrong, . these are the sensor plus tests
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Doing it in a singles post P40+ iso 1600
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    P30 ISO 1600
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    P40 ISO 800
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    And the P30 ISO 800
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay that should clear that up
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay that should clear that up
    yep. And now... the P40+ looks better at high ISO, no?

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    I must say from what I see in this comparison and from the web published images that P40 is kind of the winner for me overall - under these conditions.

    Interesting to see how it will perform outdoors under daylight

    Interesting to see how the A900 will be able to hold up against this

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Heading out right now Peter. I do like the P40+ but keeping a open mind. I will say under tungsten it is closer to reality in color. Look at the towel on the right that is the proper color and the back wall is like a sand color
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    What I see is a lot of MPX in a faster back and i like the sensor plus idea for my event stuff . I know need to stop thinking like this it just will cost me $. I do love my P30+. The P40+ is kind of the best worlds between the backs on either side.

    Now obviously we can change color and tweak these to be even better looking, just more trying to get what you see out of the can. Okay losing light check in in a few hours. Nothing special shooting wise trust me these are test images coming
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    My small take at Full res P40+ to 400 is excellent than switch to sensor plus
    P30+ beats them all at Full Res up to 800 than has 1600 to boot.

    But for ME ISO 800 and 1600 are more event crap so the P40 is kind of a plus

    Have to be careful what you are asking for here

    P45 Plus would not go past 400
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Question is what do I take to Brazil. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I must say from what I see in this comparison and from the web published images that P40 is kind of the winner for me overall - under these conditions.
    I'd say they are all quite close (though the P45+ at high ISO certainly not...). For use on MF camera the difference of the P40+ to the P30+ is the higher frame rate and 7MPx more. But the interessting thing about the P40+ is that you can use it on a view camera as well due to the lack of microlenses.
    And it's less prone to moirée.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Interesting to see how the A900 will be able to hold up against this
    what is interessting here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I will say under tungsten it is closer to reality in color.
    I think these Gretag targets are not accurate for white balance. At least you should use a grey card without metameric errors to judge about colour reproduction.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    I did NOT WB any of the shots, straight out of the can. It's there to show color range. Also from every source I know that second grey in is perfect white balance and exactly like my WhiBal card

    Okay went out shooting got some decent stuff than was called home in a hurry the pool pump lines blew up and mud and gravel everywhere so now i am going swimming in mud to get the gravel. HOME FOR SALE

    You know the saying everything happens in three's well just my luck I have triple three's going on.
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Let's remember that was specifically a noise test
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Mud and gravel - should provide good texture for detail shots with some great potential for specular highlights!

    Sorry to hear of your troubles in the middle of your Phase frenzy weekend. Good luck Guy.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Guy, just call it a "pond" in stead of a "pool" and then you can go shooting in stead.

    Sorry about the pool woes. Never a good thing.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Yea . Like to fill it in with dirt and make a putting green out of it
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    Good stuff, Guy. Thank you.

    I agree with Hrannar's comments regarding the P30+ winning on noise and handling the WB a bit differently. In "real life" one would process each file to the best possible outcome for each shot, rather than give them even treatment across the board, but it's good to see these comparisons so that we can glean the "tendencies" from these sensors' output.
    Also keep in mind that I do not believe guy used the Tungsten color profile ( because it was a noise-oriented test). The color profiles Phase provides for it's digital backs are tailored to the peaks-and-valleys of lightsources like flash, daylite, and tungsten light. Color accuracy in the very very crappy output of a tungsten light source is greatly improved by using the specifically tailored tungsten profile, but that's not the point of a noise test.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hauxon View Post
    Interesting. First impression: P30 wins easily on noise. P40 better on noise than P45. ..and the P30 white-balance is not as good as the others, has pinkish cast.
    I agree with Jack that the P40 wins on noise at S+ ISO 1600 and is the only back of the three with S+ ISO3200. I find this interesting because you generally shoot in one of two situations: tripod and/or plenty of light where you rarely leave base ISO, and crappy-event light where you'll be shooting near the max ISO that you can live with. In my experience (and obviously this is highly dependent on the individual), the "middle" ISOs of my systems get used far less often than the low and high ISOs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauxon View Post
    I'd like to see comparison in subdued light. Most cameras perform pretty well at high ISO and good lighting. Difficult lighting will reveal problems like banding.
    Banding is very, very, very rare with any digital back (maybe with the exception of the ZD). But you're absolutely right that tough lighting situations often extenuate and show and weakness. As I've pointed out many times on this board tungsten light is a near-worst-case scenario since the underexposure of the blue channel represents an effective 1 or 2 stop push of the blue channel and a 0.5 or 1 stop pull of the red channel, resulting in unusually high noise for any given "marked" ISO.

    In other words if you set your camera to ISO 400 in tungsten light (assuming you are shooting without a lens filter, and you are correcting back to neutral gray in post) you are in fact shooting the blue channel at ISO 800-1600 while over exposing the red channel by a stop.

    Skin tones, which require that the red channel's highlight information not be clipped by overexposure, are often the first to go in tungsten light, and blue dresses often show extreme noise.

    Shoot a Canon and Phase at base ISO in tungsten light (e.g. an interior design shot) and you'll see the outcome is very very different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauxon View Post
    Guy, landscapers care about long exposure performance witch is somewhat related to high ISO performance. I'd like to see 15-30 second exposures compared. The P45+ is of course the only option if you want longer than 30 seconds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Actually I agree a long 15 second shot would be interesting and also the P40+ is rated at 1 minute but Doug might have been testing it at 2 minutes
    We'll do long exposure tests while out West next week. Promise.

    Until then I'll limit my comments. The 30+ can EASILY handle 30 second exposures (given a decently cool ambient temperature it could reach an hour). Though you are right that no back in the world will handle long exposures as well as the 45+. Also the 40+ will be able to go past 30 seconds; how far past 30 seconds and at what ISOs (and what it looks like) will all be addressed next week in extensive testing.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    This don't count as a test , played around with this P40+ 150 at 5.6. Handheld
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    One more same everything I am vignetting the corners
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Also keep in mind that I do not believe guy used the Tungsten color profile ( because it was a noise-oriented test). The color profiles Phase provides for it's digital backs are tailored to the peaks-and-valleys of lightsources like flash, daylite, and tungsten light. Color accuracy in the very very crappy output of a tungsten light source is greatly improved by using the specifically tailored tungsten profile, but that's not the point of a noise test.


    Your right I did not pick the tungsten profile. Stupid me, sorry folks. So much going on at the moment. Running in and out of office trying to everything ready.

    P40+ Sensor + ISO 1600 with the Tungsten profile and it looks damn good.
    I may run the P30 and P40 again in the sensor plus mode and 800 full res mode tonight or extremely early in the morning. I have todays stuff to process as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Here is the same one in the flash profile which i did all the rest at. Again my bad
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    I see more noise in the flash profile, Doug is correct.

    Fair warning Dave you may want to think about not getting this home. ROTFLMAO

    I like this back . Today I shot all three in the field, first I should say a dangerous operation by yourself juggling 3 backs. Finally decided the car had to be right next to me to work from. Honestly this is a two person testing situation. Going to wait to the workshop since I have others there to hand stuff to. But I know .8 Vs 1.25 does not sound like a lot faster frame rate until you have them both in your hand shooting. This thing seems to fly at shooting plus playback stuff is very quick also. I did notice one thing the review from the P40+ seems brighter and also warmer in temp. and actually maybe more accurate. Did I mention the shooting speed, just checking.
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Not part of test and have some with all three and i am looking pretty much at the DR here. This is warm early light with a 45mm D P40+.

    Look at the left side now in AZ the sun is bright and DR is a big factor here. Lot's of good detail in the shadows. Did not play with anything here
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Wow, I'm impressed by the difference made by the profile setting in this case. I see some difference in my use of Flash vs. Daylight profiles, but obviously not this much. We know tungsten to be horrible, and it's nice to see the profile make a honest difference here.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    This was meant to be a color test outdoors but a strange thing is happening all backs are set for daylight and ISO 100 and I picked all the same outdoor profile BUT both Kodak sensors P30 and P45 Plus backs came up with 4300 kelvin and tint -2. Now the Dalsa sensor the P40+ back came in exactly at 5500 kelvin and straigt up as the tint. Now they should all be coming in at 5500 kelvin because that is daylight.
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Now obviously it is 6:30 am and the kelvin I know is around 4400 . So interesting how the Dalsa rendered it correct in the file and the Kodaks rendered the actually color temp and I am set at daylight and that should not change.
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    So let me pick a standard kelvin and apply to all That I think is correct for this early in the morning and it should be warm.
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    okay went in and had set individually the color temp for each file at 4900 kelvin . What is interesting is they are radically different profiles applying 4900 on a p45 sent the P40 to 10k when I tried to apply to all from the P45 . Did not like that one bit. So each file was set at 4900 kelvin. Also I have my highlight and shadow control on and the word Killer the Kil is blowing out some which is expected but I see the shadows blocking up more in the P30. So obviously this tells me it has less DR than the P45 and P40 which are about equal here, maybe more on the P40 but we will get into the DR again as we go
    all at the same color temp that I feel represents morning light. Now outdoors WB means nothing it is what you want the file to look like and we will get more into WB stuff when we get in the studio at much more controlled light and such, if I get a chance to shoot that hopefully and I want to at least get into skin tones at some point in time
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Now the P40 held the KIL actually better and also less blocked up in the shadows going by the warnings. As Jack and I noted when testing the P65 it has more DR than the Kodaks by about 1/4 to 1/3 of a stop. Not a big deal but it is there
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Little different color looks and this may come down to just preference. Let you all be the judge. More to come in the morning but I do see a difference between the backs in these regards. Detail I can tell you is not going to be earth shattering against each other. The images are jumping off the screen , this is not even a concern as I see it. BTW all with the 28d lens. Ya it sucks. LOL

    Could not resist. But I have to say maybe the digitars are better in theory but man i really would like to see the worldly difference in print and this stuff is extremely sharp.

    I had to get my two digs in because I am pretty sick of hearing how ****ty mamiya glass is. Sorry but from a lens whore it bugs me to hear it when I am knocking them out of the park on a daily basis. Had to be said and I will drop it right here. I'm entitled to one bitch on my own forum.
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Thanks, Guy.

    Is there a labeling error in the last two sets? The first shows P30+, P40+, P45+, but the second shows P40+, P30+, P45+. While the color and crops suggest that the order did not really change between the two sets.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    It went 40,30 and 45. Software is acting weird and I original put the continuous order and did not delete. Go by the warning label
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Detail test. all with the 150d lens at F11. I did WB these off the white candle area, thought it would show some difference in color between them. I also processed them exactly the same size just a touch bigger and I mean a touch than the P30+ otherwise my crops won't match up and I did move the 45 in to match closer to the crop frame backs


    Back name is on file
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It went 40,30 and 45. Software is acting weird and I original put the continuous order and did not delete. Go by the warning label
    I read the "warning label" but didn't get that it applied to both sets.

    To clarify, both sets are 40, 30, 45. Right?

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    This is coming in all screwed up Dale . I am going to start actually putting the back name on the file. It goes by name than changes by size when you load them . Driving me freaking nuts
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Sorry for your hassles, Guy. I appreciate what you're going through. I did not want to add to your frustration, but just looking for clarification. You're doing great in spite of the software glitches. Thank you.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Allyn View Post
    I read the "warning label" but didn't get that it applied to both sets.

    To clarify, both sets are 40, 30, 45. Right?
    Hang on going to name them and reload. Give me a minute
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    This is coming in all screwed up Dale . I am going to start actually putting the back name on the file. It goes by name than changes by size when you load them . Driving me freaking nuts
    Don't just do an insert all. Insert them one by one and you will get them in the order you want.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    haha. I grabbed the files and saw that they were in fact the P30+, P40+ and P45+, in that order, just prior to you applying the labels.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay all fixed now, sorry about that. Easier I just put the file name . Okay I had a few cocktails. LOL No I am good
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay 100 percent crops
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    In big light like this, this last set looks to go in order of detail: P45+, P40+, P30+. About what one would expect and hope. Thanks.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Detail test.
    P30+ and P45+ show moirée, P40+ not. Damn, that's good!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay 100 percent crops
    did you apply sharpening? looks like...

    Hey, that's a lot of work - so thanks for all the comparisions, appreciate it.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    I did put some sharpening in across the set, not sure I like it though. I have another set coming that I will keep even lighter.

    Check out the moire was going to post this last night but the internet went south. Moire will happen but it is less so with the 6.8 micron sensors and even the 6 micron may have the edge here
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Looks like the Kodak has more of a wider band of moire going across. Also I can see the P30+ showing it's lack of MPX. The P40 and P45 have a little more detail. Let me make a note here on the P65 PLus not being tested here but I have in the past . If you see the P30 compare to the P45 detail difference well if you threw the P65 in there expect about that same difference if not a touch more over the P45 and P40 which here look pretty even. So yes there will be a gain with the P65 no question but being a worldly difference it will not be. But if you need or want the absolute highest the P65 will get you home
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Check out the moire was going to post this last night but the internet went south. Moire will happen but it is less so with the 6.8 micron sensors and even the 6 micron may have the edge here
    now that's interessting to see - thanks a lot! The 40+ has not less moirée it just has finer moirée... was not visible in the full size shot above.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    What I am finding and others maybe coming to some conclusions as well the P40+ is really the mix of the two Kodaks has high MPX and detail but can handle noise like the P30 without the use of micro lenses and still use it on a tech camera with no wake up cable. The only real downfall is the exposure limit against the P45 otherwise it is even faster to run. BTW the crop sort of works in your favor with the 28mm it is sharp to the corners without adding corner sharpness. I will show that as well. Let's move on to some DR stuff..

    BTW to make these test what I did was separate each group from each back and put them in the same folder so every scene has all three backs in it when I go to process. So I maybe loading the raws up later so you folks can play around. Makes it easier to work with also like this
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by thomas View Post
    now that's interessting to see - thanks a lot! The 40+ has not less moirée it just has finer moirée... was not visible in the full size shot above.
    Maybe better said Thomas agreed. It's going to happen on occasion no doubt but the 6 micron handles it better
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