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Thread: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Well thanks to the folks at CI . Shipped overnight in my care is a P45+,P40+ and of course sitting here is my P30+. Okay who has my ticket to Brazil.

    I have posted armed guards at my door and Drake my dog who would kiss you before even thinking about biting you . Okay he is worthless as a guard dog.

    Anyway I hope to get out late this afternoon and start comparing the 3 backs. One awesome thing is real easy to shoot tests with this because all you do is switch the backs out on a firmly planted tripod , lens and body so everything is on equal ground. I will have to compensate by moving the P45+ closer in to match the framing of the P30 and P40 not a big deal.

    Now these backs and bodies and such are making there way to our workshop next week with 9 shooters total so you will be seeing many images taken with all three starting next week. I get a chance until Tuesday to run some tests beforehand to see what the P40+ is all about.

    What is interesting here is this is a Dalsa sensor and the same as the P65+ but with a crop factor and additional shooting speed. So in essence we really are comparing the Dalsa backs to the Kodak backs. The P40 Plus is a interesting back since it kind of rides the middle ground of the P45+ and P30 Plus. Couple things of note here it is a 40mpx back so equal to the 39mpx P45+ but with a crop sensor 1.3 and it is a 6 micron compared to a 6.8 micron. Several other slight differences as well much faster shooting times and even faster than the P30+ which is a 6.8 micron 31mpx 1.3 crop factor camera. Iso for the P45 + is 50-800, P30+ 100-1600 and the P40 Plus 100-800 normal 40 mpx than 1600 and 3200 I believe 11 mpx. Have yet to check that out or even mount the backs yet. Interesting question here is who does it go up against in it's own line . It's a mix of high MPX back with fast shooting speeds and high ISO. Couple things it does not need a wake up cable for a tech camera but it does have a limit of 1 minute according to specs. Something we will try is longer exposure times as well.

    Anyway this maybe the first big test of all three Phase backs and if we are lucky a P65 may just show up next week. So i like to get enough of these test done before we all head out the door to go shoot them for real. Stay tuned

    BTW this is a exclusive to GetDPI forums. I just don't have the time to post anywhere else, do to getting ready for the workshop and fixing about 5 more repairs in my house. So if you have friends than direct them here if they want to read these results. Again thanks to Doug, Chris and Dave at Capture Integration for getting these out to me before the workshop to give them a nice workout.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Sounds like great fun and potentially very useful information.

    Re. moving the P45+ to compensate for FoV: I like to see at least an occasional inclusion of shots from the same position as a reminder of the degree of cropping, etc. It's not something that many of us can do in this class of camera/back on our own. Of course we can arrange it by cropping a file, but that's not quite the same.

    Looking forward to your posts, Guy.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    I was planning on that as well Dale
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Yes, get those house repairs done, Guy. It must be in tip top shape when it undergoes the necessary inspection prior to the refinancing that will make some cash from it available to you.

    Anyone want to get in on the pool that is forming? You guess how many of the backs will be returned after the workshop. The arrival of a P65 will make it even more exciting.
    Roger
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Great to hear that Guy, looking forward to test all this next week.

    I am especially interested in the P45+ an the P40+ and want to find out if the crop factor of the P40+ is limiting for my work.

    Of course the P65+ will be great if we get - just for comparison

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Wait....I'll buy you a Gura Gear bag to hold it all.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Great to hear that Guy, looking forward to test all this next week.

    I am especially interested in the P45+ an the P40+ and want to find out if the crop factor of the P40+ is limiting for my work.

    Of course the P65+ will be great if we get - just for comparison
    If it shows up the P65+ i would be surprised but Doug has requested it from Phase. The P40 is essential the same except for the crop and a touch faster shooting speed so regardless we can get a great idea on how the Dalsa performs for both the Dalsa backs.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Wait....I'll buy you a Gura Gear bag to hold it all.
    No it's still too big. LOL

    It is a nice bag though and Andy did a nice job on it
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member Dave Gallagher's Avatar
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Take care of it Guy! You have my children's college fund in your hands! : )

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    If it shows up the P65+ i would be surprised but Doug has requested it from Phase.
    Well I thought that Phase would ship that to us, knowing I am where

    Just kidding. I fully agree that he P40 has the same characteristics as the P65. And to be honest, I will not be able to afford a P65+ anyway.

    The P40 looks very interesting from all aspects - price, technology, features etc

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Gallagher View Post
    Take care of it Guy! You have my children's college fund in your hands! : )
    In the safe Dave. Not sure i trust myself. LOL

    Okay time to play
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay I lied. Sorry

    P40+ back ISO 50-800 at 40mpx

    When you engage Sensor + ISO 200-3200 at 11mpx I believe.


    I actually like this better and for a guy that shoots events with MF , Yea i know i am one sick puppy but I could do the whole job with Sensor + on.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Couple new features here . On playback there is also a rating system like there is in C1 you can rate the image 1 to 5 stars.

    Another really nice one is a grid system on the back so on review you could have. I love this since i teach it all the time

    Golden Rule grid
    Center Cross
    Rectangle
    Square

    Color or B&W preview

    One other note playback is much faster zooming and scrolling than my P30+ by a lot

    Shooting speed I believe is .8 for the P40, 1 second for the P65+, 1.25 seconds for the P30+ and 1.5 seconds for the P45+. Now this is the time gone by before you can hit shoot again. Want to make that clear.

    For P21+ folks it is the same speed as yours even though it is pushing 22mpx more raw data through the pipeline. Okay I am impressed here. That is a big file getting tossed pretty darn quickly. Yea it deserves a big
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Good luck with the workshop Guy. I've got a feeling this will go down as one of the workshops folks will remember for awhile.

    Just checked Intellicast and it looks like great weather conditions.
    Don Libby
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Yes lots of storms out there and thanks Don. Okay just shot the worst test first the noise test under ugly tungsten light , the worst noise light to photographers but I said many times when i test it is at the worst conditions and trust me tungsten is the worst for noise. I did move the P45 in on this test and just for grins I did put a color chart in . I will get to some real shooting in the morning when I sneak out at 6 am
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Hate to say it and before I process this stuff, I do like the speed of this P40+ back and me liking something is not a good thing for my bank account. Let's see if it is all it can be over the next week and half though. Hard to beat that P45+ and P30+ backs.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Hope you have a great workshop---and fun testing all the Phase One MFDBs....

    Congratulations on your new P40+ Guy!!



    (Has Roger or anyone else set up that pool yet?)

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Hate to say it and before I process this stuff, I do like the speed of this P40+ back and me liking something is not a good thing for my bank account.
    OMG

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    I am interessted in corner sharpness with the P40+ at 20mm and/or the P65+ at 10mm shift with a Digitar 47XL.
    Any chance to do do some test like this? Would be great!
    Regards, Thomas

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Don't have a 47mm lens. Not sure what Doug is bringing for the Cambo and someone is bring a Alpa next week but not sure what he has
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Don't have a 47mm lens. Not sure what Doug is bringing for the Cambo and someone is bring a Alpa next week but not sure what he has
    As long as there is a view camera that's great! The P65+ at 10mm shift (something concrete in focus at 10mm shift... not just sky) will tell enough I think...
    Thanks, Thomas

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Will do.

    Okay question when I compare the Sensor + files to the normal files obviously there is a size difference. Maybe I should downrez the big files on that test
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Will do.

    Okay question when I compare the Sensor + files to the normal files obviously there is a size difference. Maybe I should downrez the big files on that test
    no, no... that's okay... just straight a crop of the corner at large movements. The P65+ at 10mm shift compares roughly to the P45 at 15mm shift... so that's what I would appreciate to see (the actual size doesn't matter).
    Thanks again!

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Thomas was talking about the noise test to get the same 100 percent crop. I will have to down rez the P40+ 40mpx 100,200,400,800 down to match the Sensor Plus 11mpx files to compare 200,400,800,1600 and 3200. I will do this when I reprocess the 40mpx files for the second part of the test. I will explain this as I go. Also the P30 plus
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Just testing sizing here
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Good enough to tell the noise levels. This is a 1200x900 crop
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Another
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    I'd like to see (corner) comparison of the P45+ with the Mamiya 35mm lens and P40+ with the 28mm lens. Roughly the same angle of view, same resolution and same price.

    Best, Hrannar
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    No 35mm lens but a 45d
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay DON't post until i get this all up for you.Let you know when trying to keep this in order. Interesting noise test

    Okay everything shot at F11 tripod mounted , mirror up and manual focus. All with the 45D lens. Now 100 percent crops got a little tight so I took 1800x1800 size chunks from all the files. Here I am just looking for noise more than anything else. Now these are WITHOUT SENSOR PLUS , that comes after i post all these at there full maximum MPX . Obviously the P30 + is a little wider crop but I am after noise so it maybe okay. First off the P30 Plus will most likely be the noise king here with full MPX because of the micro lenses but I have yet to compare either so we will see. After this test I will show you the Sensor plus with the P30 and P45 with exactly the same resolution since i downrezed them to equal the P40 sensor plus files . Why because that is most likely what we do anyway on some gig is reduce the file. I know I do this all the time for event and runway work. So you get two tests here.

    C1 processing is identical on all files , a very small amount of sharpening, all noise levels are set at 25 for luminance and 36 for color. I would normally have this slightly lower on luminance but this is what got applied to all the files. I set up a style and applied to everything. Also lens correction was set for the 45mm. I did have to give the P45 a slight bump in exposure.

    Okay in order every time P30, P40 and P45 Plus backs

    ISO 100 Full Frame . Also shot under tungsten set at tungsten and did NOT WB any of this
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay here we go ISO 100 crops

    30,40,45
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay here we go ISO 200 crops

    30,40,45

    Watch the Color checker( grey box) the knob on top right and cabinet bottom right
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay here we go ISO 400 crops

    30,40,45
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay here we go ISO 800 crops. Last of all three together

    30,40,45
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay the lone wolf the P30 Plus at 1600 at full resolution. This was somewhat expected results. Also we are not cropped in as tight with the P30 with it's only 31mpx. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Now This can all be tweaked as well and the color can go higher and the luminance a little lower . I will show a example with the P40 plus.

    First one is the revised file with luminance at 10 and color 50 , second is the original 26 and 36. ISO 800 P40 file
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Just from casual looking the P40 clearly beats the P45 at ISO 800 which is starting to smear as well.

    Okay next test coming
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay this test is pretty interesting the P30 VS P40 Sensor Plus.

    Okay here is how I did this test . The P40 Plus files are 11mpx approximately 12.5 x 9 inches 300 dpi when using the sensor plus and you have ISO 200-3200. Now what I did here was downrez the P30 plus files to match. Now little secret when i do a lot of PR work with the P30 + this is exactly what i do is downsized it so I can process faster and for wedding shooters as well shooting MF they may do exactly the same. Obviously i don't need 31mpx for this stuff, so just shooting it at 11mpx gives me a huge benefit right out of the gate of pushing the files much faster in C1 and when on deadline this is heaven. So here I downsized the files right in C1 at the raw processing level for the P30 files

    Now these are 100 percent 900x 900 crops

    Lets start at ISO 200 P30 first than P40. I left the P45 out here since it only goes to 800

    WARNING Watch the POST TO SEE WHAT IS FIRST . ISO 200 AND 400 THE P30 CAME UP FIRST AND THE REST 800 AND 1600 THE P40 DID
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    ISO 400 shots

    P30 is first here
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    ISO 800

    Darn the P40 is coming up first here
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Lets try 1600

    again P40 first. It's a size issue
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    And the lone wolf P40 3200
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay without sitting and looking with a very critical eye in this test at least The P30 plus is taking the noise test and making it seem the best on a noise level and the micro lenses may have something to do with that and ultimately the processing parameters maybe better served at different settings for noise with different backs. Even so i think the P30 wins this contest with the P40 in second and looks to me the P45 did not do very well after ISO 400 and 800 looking not so hot.

    Also obviously we are very upfront and personal with all this and in print form maybe a totally different animal. As we go along we will form different opinions on what you are after as well and your style. The landscape shooter does not care about high ISO stuff and as always said you want high ISO buy a D3 and certainly some truth to that thinking but even so with sensor plus I am noticing even at the 11mpx the detail did not diminsh at all and very equal to a P30 downrezed. Interesting
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Member Hauxon's Avatar
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Interesting. First impression: P30 wins easily on noise. P40 better on noise than P45. ..and the P30 white-balance is not as good as the others, has pinkish cast.

    I'd like to see comparison in subdued light. Most cameras perform pretty well at high ISO and good lighting. Difficult lighting will reveal problems like banding.

    Guy, dandscapers care about long exposure performance witch is somewhat related to high ISO performance. I'd like to see 15-30 second exposures compared. The P45+ is of course the only option if you want longer than 30 seconds.

    Best, Hrannar
    Last edited by Hauxon; 13th June 2009 at 20:51.
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Okay enough already go shoot something decent in the morning. LOL
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauxon View Post
    Interesting. First impression: P30 wins easily on noise. P40 better on noise than P45. ..and the P30 white-balance is not as good as the others, has pinkish cast.

    I'd like to see comparison in subdued light. Most cameras perform pretty well at high ISO and good lighting. Difficult lighting will reveal problems like banding.

    Best, Hrannar
    And that is the thing here we have crap tungsten light and reason I go after the ugly is I want to know the very bottom of the line before shooting something for a client and knowing you limits. It can only be better than this and I agree nice subdued light would be better , trying to find that in AZ is waiting for a storm to roll in. Not very often I am afraid. But we should hit that next week up North
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Good stuff, Guy. Thank you.

    I agree with Hrannar's comments regarding the P30+ winning on noise and handling the WB a bit differently. In "real life" one would process each file to the best possible outcome for each shot, rather than give them even treatment across the board, but it's good to see these comparisons so that we can glean the "tendencies" from these sensors' output.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    .... I agree nice subdued light would be better , trying to find that in AZ is waiting for a storm to roll in. Not very often I am afraid. But we should hit that next week up North
    Well here in Iceland storm is the norm and clear blue sky only few days a year.
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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Actually I agree a long 15 second shot would be interesting and also the P40+ is rated at 1 minute but Doug might have been testing it at 2 minutes
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: There here. P40+, P45+ and my P30+ Oh My

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Lets try 1600
    again P40 first. It's a size issue
    Guy, in this post and the ISO800 before the first image is the P30+, not the P40+. You can tell it from the blue tone of the "Eucerin Plus" (it's all "Plus" here ) cap - the blue of the P30+ is more navy blue whilst the P40+ blue is shifted towards yellow. Too, the P30+ shows a slight magenta shift in the whites in all shots.
    Regards, Thomas

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