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Thread: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    One feature I noticed in the youtube link was the panoramic shooting mode...this is enough for me to buy one - I have missed a digital version of my XPan system...

    a lot of very useful in viewfinder features as well - all in a nice tidy little pocketable package..

    where do I sgn up ? Is anyone organising a bulk purchase -

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Let's face it, unless you are making large prints with cropped images the MPs or the ISOs are not the problem. There are many very good P&S with small sensors that do a very good job (the new Oly XZ-1, the S-95, the LX-5, etc.) The one thing that small sensor cameras cannot do compared to APSC is high ISO. There is more than an order of magnitude difference. However, high ISO is not the only reason to buy a particular camera and certainly not the only reason to buy an X100 though it makes it a more compelling case. The ergonomics weigh very heavily and in psrticular the hybrid OVF/EVF view finder.

    Actually one more thing....more control over the depth of field. Yes I know this is a wide angle lens but compared to a small sensor camera it will draw differently and allow you to clean up some backgrounds that could otherwise look cluttered and messy.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Actually one more thing....more control over the depth of field. Yes I know this is a wide angle lens but compared to a small sensor camera it will draw differently and allow you to clean up some backgrounds that could otherwise look cluttered and messy.
    +1!

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Actually one more thing....more control over the depth of field. Yes I know this is a wide angle lens but compared to a small sensor camera it will draw differently and allow you to clean up some backgrounds that could otherwise look cluttered and messy.
    True Terry but that is also lens speed and focal length dependent such that an f3.5 24mm isn't going to offer the depth of field as the f2.0.
    V/r John

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    The E5 gives very clear results with much greater detail up to ISO1600 compared with the K5, given you are using the appropriate pro glass from Olympus.
    I don't think so. I mean, put high end glass to the K-5 too and then compare. Olympus glass is nice but E-5's ISO 1600 isn't.

    However there are these test showing higher DR for the K5 and also D7000 and other cameras. But how does it come that the results from the E5 are topping the results from the K5 and others by such a high degree????
    Where? Not in DR and certainly not in high ISO. I think Olympus got color profiling right and out of the box gives better color at low ISO, or resized down at high ISO (they are really good at keeping color tones in high iso considering the sensor they have to deal with). But the detail loss is there, if you need more of the original file resolution, at ISO 1600 it doesn't look like a winning proposition vs some of the competition. That doesn't mean it's useless.

    The most likely answer is the weak AA filter of the E5 plus the less strong post processing for higher ISO. Just take a E5 image shot with 6400 and apply strong noise correction - bingo then you might even top the K5 or D7000 results
    Yeah right. Have you done this yourself? At ISO 6400 the E-5 suffers very often from nasty banding. The detail loss is quite big and the DR has eroded quite a bit. I am sure if you are showing VGA sized shots maybe- and even at those I have seen banding from miles.

    Unfortunately all competition is relying on pretty strong AA filters so far. Which results in "waxy" and "not so detailed" images the higher the ISO gets. With the E5 you have still details as you go higher, but as noise is not limited in camera, you finally get noise taking over the fine details.
    I am not sure about that. The noise reduction you have to employ will leave you with waxy images. What the E-5 did with a weaker AA is with a 12 MP sensor, at low iso, match resolution or ball park so of the 16MP's. That's quite remarkable, but 16 MP's they are. This means that advantage sort of cancels out in the comparison. Remarkable for a 12 MP sensor, but not a real advantage when it comes to compare result vs result.

    So what is the better approach? To have a product like the E5 where the last decision is left to the customer for noise suppression, or the other approach where the vendor makes the customer happy (tries to make the customer happy)?
    I certainly prefer having the choice. But by the same token, there's only so much you can do with a 3 year old sensor. I give Olympus credit for doing a superb job at making the most of it, and at low ISO the E-5 can certainly be fantastic.

    For myself I vote for the first approach and stay myself responsible for how I want to massage my images.
    I vote the same. But you also have to consider the quality of the original data. I have pushed K-5 files hard and you don't see banding anywhere. Can't say that about E-5 files.

    - Raist

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    I visited my camera pusher today. He'll get his demo X100 in 2-3 days. He told me he has orders for more than 50 cameras already.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    I don't think so. I mean, put high end glass to the K-5 too and then compare. Olympus glass is nice but E-5's ISO 1600 isn't.
    Sorry, but which high end glass for the K5 ?????

    Also I do disagree with the ISO1600 statement, I am developing my ORFs in Lr3.3 and/or C1Pro and I absolutely cannot find any noise! Just set the parameters right of course! But I have much more details than I had with the K5 (and of course only a DA70 for comparison).

    Again and again, I think all this trying to argue about same or similar IQ from the other cameras is just useless, as the main issue is the AA filter which is almost not there in the E5.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    ...the main issue is the AA filter which is almost not there in the E5.
    Do you see much moire?

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    Do you see much moire?
    No I do not.

    Alo never did with the M8 and not with the H3D39.

    I think that this moire issue is there, but much smaller as thought and easy to correct in post processing.

  10. #160
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    X100 Depth of Field

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Actually one more thing....more control over the depth of field. Yes I know this is a wide angle lens but compared to a small sensor camera it will draw differently and allow you to clean up some backgrounds that could otherwise look cluttered and messy.
    Full Frame sensors have 63.4% the depth-of-field of APS-C sensors when focused at 3 feet. So F2 APS-C behaves close to F2.8 in FF (according to online calculators and taking into account the appropriate circle of confusion for each format).

    My Ricoh GRD2 has 6.5 x as much depth of field at 3 feet than the X100 lens, so yes, more control is possible than with tiny sensor digicams. The 23mm lens produces however a much more gradual focus loss than 35mm so backgrounds, even though theoretically out-of-focus, dont defocus as much or as fast, so I think it safer to call it “separation” instead of "clean up".

    Sensor size, along with Hybrid viewfinder, analog controls (and now high iso performance) is the main lure of the X100, which according that dpreview thread you mentioned is a grown-grown ups toy!

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Sorry, but which high end glass for the K5 ?????

    Also I do disagree with the ISO1600 statement, I am developing my ORFs in Lr3.3 and/or C1Pro and I absolutely cannot find any noise!
    And I have tried my hand and it and I can see it. In fact, at ISO 1600 you can even get some banding! (though it's rare). Equally importantly the shadows don't have much leeway at all. If you have a high contrast/DR scene, lifting the shadow gets you noise.

    As for Pentax high end glass you have several primes to choose from, and also the DA * Gold lenses.

    Just set the parameters right of course! But I have much more details than I had with the K5 (and of course only a DA70 for comparison).
    Ok, here's a little challenge for you then. Get a shot of the E-5 at ISO 6400 *without* noise reduction - or any of the Olympus noise reduction settings. You can do this in Olympus Viewer 2 by getting a RAW. The shot below is ISO 12880- the light is bad fluorescent light (low light). Here's a 2 megapixel shot of it, not a VGA size shot, and this is 1/50 at F4.



    Now, I have applied no tweaking to WB, noise reduction whatsoever. Here's a 100% crop:



    Has noise? Sure. Can it still print and look decent? Oh yes. Again, I haven't even tried any noise reduction stunts like Ninja, Nik, Topaz, LR, you name it. Now, can you please try this with the E-5? Feel free to use 1/50 at F2.8 for pure equivalence of DOF and exposure. ISO 6400. Let us know how it goes (and please please, post a link to the shots).

    Thanks in advance.

    Again and again, I think all this trying to argue about same or similar IQ from the other cameras is just useless, as the main issue is the AA filter which is almost not there in the E5.
    Hey, I think you are the one who brought up the K-5 comparison. Just trying to clear things up. Lacking the AA doesn't get the E-5 better than but on par with in resolution. The rest is the same old sensor. Keep that in mind. The E-5 does fantastic at low ISO but once the ISO cranks up....

    Certainly Olympus lenses are fantastic.

    - Raist

    PS: here's the typical shared E-5 shot size (sometimes smaller, this one at least is SVGA)



    Looks almost noiseless except for the chroma noise which wouldn't be hard to remove and show at this size, at all.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Let's keep this on topic. E-5 vs K5 can be addressed elsewhere.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Here is a link to a youtube video of a Thai shop showing off the X100. Don't know what is up with attaching an external viewfinder to the rig but what is interesting is the use of a Thumbs-up (CSEP-2) onto the camera's hot shoe for easier hand holding. Also shows him working the various menus on the LCD.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6li49H45gFA

    All the Best.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 Price Control

    As I stated previously in this E-5, sorry, X100 thread, I was hoping to get mine after the marketing dust has settled and prices have come down, most likely after the summer.

    However I just read this statement form a FujiFilm representative (AUTO translation BEWARE):

    "The price now is about 10,000 yuan. From today's camera market, over half a year the price of the camera will fall badly, for such a camera we want to maintain its value, do not want it to increase sales through price cuts. We want it to be a year to buy and buy now prices are the same product."

    http://translate.google.com.au/trans...720%2F15572%2F

    That Taiwan X100 forum info site also says they're hoping to sell 100,000 units globally and 20,000 units in china within next year...

    At a thread in dpreview a frenchman named AlbertoS is saying this:

    "Indeed! I was just told by my dealer where I preordered one (in France), that the stores which will carry the X100 have to sign a pretty draconian agreement with Fuji, not allowing them, for example, to pass cameras to other stores who may not have signed the same agreement.

    Apparently, Fuji will only work with 60 or so dealers in France, and will be privileging brick-and-mortar stores over internet dealers. It looks like the camera will not easily be available at a discount through the web... "

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...hread=37867086

    Can FujiFilm do this legally in the States ? Are you people aware of any other Camera Manufacturer that has forced retailers to hold the Manufactured Suggested Retail Price for a whole year ?
    Last edited by jorgeAD; 2nd March 2011 at 13:06.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 Price Control

    Quote Originally Posted by jorgeAD View Post
    Can FujiFilm do this legally in the States ? Are you people aware of any other Camera Manufacturer that has forced retailers to sustain the Manufactured Suggested Retail Price for a whole year ?
    My understanding in the US is that manufacturers can no longer legally force sellers to sell at the MSRP. However, the manufacturer may have other leverage. They may share advertising costs with sellers, and they could threaten to cut that off. Also, they may threaten not to ship product to a seller that sells at a discount.

    I know of a Leica reseller here who sells lenses at a discount, advertising them as "used" [wink wink]. This seller also sells "new" at full MSRP. I was told by this seller that Leica would not ship product to him if he sold "new" lenses at a discount.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Sony - has something in place that pricing is very consistent for their cameras and lenses. You will not see the price vary unless Sony is doing a promotion. I think some of it comes down to razor thin margins on certain items really not leaving the retailer any room to discount.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Thanks in advance.
    Terry says and she may be right, but it was really a point worth making, and random and badly based criticisms need to be answered for the sake of others who may be considering which way to run.



    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Talking about those cameras in relation to the X100 is fine and dandy and comparing IQ between all of them is just fine. This was just turning into an E-5 vs K5 high ISO slugfest.....which is pefectly valid as two cameras that do compete against each other in the weather sealed dslr category....just better placed in a different thread....which I think there already is one:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23400

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    OK, punish me, Terry, for being way, way OT. But I can't resist asking if you plan to be first in line at the Apple Store on the 11th for your new iPad.

    I promise I'll stay on topic from now on.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    OK, punish me, Terry, for being way, way OT. But I can't resist asking if you plan to be first in line at the Apple Store on the 11th for your new iPad.

    I promise I'll stay on topic from now on.
    Well since it will garner a good laugh .
    I have a flight from SF to Orlando on launch day that leaves 9:55AM and arrives 6:50PM....I think that sufficiently wipes out the day!



    .

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 Price Control

    Quote Originally Posted by jorgeAD View Post
    Can FujiFilm do this legally in the States ? Are you people aware of any other Camera Manufacturer that has forced retailers to hold the Manufactured Suggested Retail Price for a whole year ?
    Fujifilm is implementing a MAP incentive like pretty much all other manufacturers. Basically, the dealer gets kickback money if MAP is honored (minimum advertised price.) The dealer can sell at whatever price it wants, but it can't advertise at less than the MAP unless it wants to lose the incentive.

    The margins are low, so no dealer wants to lose the incentive.

    With regards to the Leica dealer, yes, there is a lot of <winking> going on to circumvent the Leica dealer agreement. Said dealer agreement prevents even ebay sales, but there are dealers posting on ebay all the time. A dealer agreement is only as strong as the manufacturer's resolve in pursuing those who break it.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
    Here is a link to a youtube video of a Thai shop showing off the X100. Don't know what is up with attaching an external viewfinder to the rig but what is interesting is the use of a Thumbs-up (CSEP-2) onto the camera's hot shoe for easier hand holding. Also shows him working the various menus on the LCD.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6li49H45gFA

    All the Best.
    Ha ha... I was having a cup coffee with those guys yesterday, but forgot to ask about the viewfinder. My guess is that it's there to tempt Thai customers to buy it. It looks kind of cute, and cuteness is king in this country. Useful? Hey, now we're getting seriously off topic, aren't we

  23. #173
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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 Price Control

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    The dealer can sell at whatever price it wants, but it can't advertise at less than the MAP unless it wants to lose the incentive. The margins are low, so no dealer wants to lose the incentive.
    Thanks for the explanation, but I guess some would do anyhting in order to close the sale (straight from Amazon):

    "WHY DONT WE SHOW THE PRICE ?

    Retailers like Amazon have the legal right to set their own prices independently, but some manufacturers place restrictions on how those prices may be communicated. Because our price on this item is lower than the manufacturer's "minimum advertised price," the manufacturer does not allow us to show you our price until you take further action, such as placing the item in your shopping cart, or in some cases, proceeding to the final checkout stage. The steps required depend on the details of the manufacturer's minimum advertised price policy. Taking these steps allows Amazon to show you our price consistent with our goal of always offering you the lowest possible prices on the widest selection of products."

    So its all a matter of time and waiting a bit for good old "offer and demand" to do its thing.

    Wonder how many people are in several X100 waiting lists, are closet zoomoholics, or after 29 days of new photo jewlery will just send it back for refund...

    Anyway, I am willing to pay the $1200.. but for an all-black more discrete model. With my luck it is likely to be a "limited edition" going for $1500...

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Price in Bangkok is THB 32,990 including 7% VAT. That is just under $1,100.

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry_R View Post
    Because delivering it decreases quality on lowest ISOs.
    Not correct. Increasing ability of well to collect photons and reducing amount of noise in pipeline improves quality of output _overall_. Just compare D700 and D3s for example at their lower ISOs. You can start with DXOMark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry_R View Post
    Also - native minimum ISO is getting higher and higher.
    Not correct. Please name on of recent say Canon or Nikon models that had increase in top ISO and corresponding change in quality of base ISO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry_R View Post
    I have compared NEX and u43 on one manual high quality lens. NEX has bigger sensor, higher resolution. But does not bring more details on lower ISOs.
    I don't know how you compared them but I have NEX, I have m43, I have a number of high quality lens and I have number of brand name adapters (more than one per mount to eliminate manufacturing tolerance variations) and my experience does not match yours, NEX5 is so sharp you can cut yourself with it (below is 100% crop of SOOC shot with ZM 25/2.8 @ 2.8; can you imagine what it would look like @ 5.6?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry_R View Post
    Friend sent me two RAWs - one from NEX, one from small Sigma. NEX is OK, digital, but lifeless.
    I had Sigma. Second shot below is from NEX5. I do not call NEX5 lifeless neither on it's own nor when compared to Sigma.




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    Re: X100 Depth of Field

    Quote Originally Posted by jorgeAD View Post
    Full Frame sensors have 63.4% the depth-of-field of APS-C sensors when focused at 3 feet. So F2 APS-C behaves close to F2.8 in FF (according to online calculators and taking into account the appropriate circle of confusion for each format).
    Actually DOFMaster calculator claims differently, according to it DOF for 70mm lens @ 2.8 and 3 feet is 0.09 feet for FF (D700), and 0.06 feet for APS-C (D300).

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    Re: X100 Depth of Field

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Actually DOFMaster calculator claims differently, according to it DOF for 70mm lens @ 2.8 and 3 feet is 0.09 feet for FF (D700), and 0.06 feet for APS-C (D300).
    This is an X100 thread, try DOFMaster for a 23mm lens...

    Wait a minute..You got more DOF for Full Frame ??

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    Re: X100 Depth of Field

    Quote Originally Posted by jorgeAD View Post
    Wait a minute..You got more DOF for Full Frame ??
    Plug the numbers in, same lens, same distance, same aperture, just change the body

  29. #179
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    Re: X100 Depth of Field

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Plug the numbers in, same lens, same distance, same aperture, just change the body
    Right so APS-C is 0.09 and FF is 0.06, or 66.6% of APS-C... sheesh I was off by 2.2%

    Dont we love number crunching ! The relevant bit was that even thought total DOF isnt that different the "draw" or progression towards out of focuseness is, so unless the backround is much further away, or the focusing distance much closer, the 23mm in the X100 wont really "clear out" any background clutter...

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    Re: X100 Depth of Field

    Quote Originally Posted by jorgeAD View Post
    Right so APS-C is 0.09 and FF is 0.06, or 66.6%... sheeh I was off by 2.2%
    It's the _other_ way around, one for APS-C is _smaller_ (0.06)

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    Re: X100 Depth of Field

    Quote Originally Posted by jorgeAD View Post
    ...the 23mm in the X100 wont really "clear out" any background clutter...
    Correct Here are some new samples:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotois/...7626059913905/

  32. #182
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    Re: X100 Depth of Field

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Clear out: put out of focus sufficiently so stuff cant be recognized. Thats my definition I am sure you got a couple of your own. So even if the X100 23mm lens wont clear out close background clutter it can still provide nice out of focus foreground as the above linked samples prove, or even far away background as previous official sample shots have already proven. :sleep006:

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    Re: X100 Depth of Field

    Quote Originally Posted by jorgeAD View Post
    Clear out: put out of focus sufficiently so stuff cant be recognized. Thats my definition I am sure you got a couple of your own. So even if the X100 23mm lens wont clear out close background clutter it can still provide nice out of focus foreground as the above linked samples prove, or even far away background as previous official sample shots have already proven. :sleep006:
    And that is what I meant by my post when I said clean up....It doesn't need to be completely cleared out.

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    Re: X100 Depth of Field

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    And that is what I meant by my post when I said clean up....It doesn't need to be completely cleared out.
    That was obvious for me too, that it is not 35mm Summilux on M9

  35. #185
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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 Varieties

    OK, thank you Fuji. I'll have your X-100 with the fixed 35mm equivalent lens and I'll also purchase an X-105 which will be exactly the same camera but this time with a fixed 105mm equivalent lens. Methinks with these two I won't be needing much else.

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    Re: X100 Depth of Field

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Wait a minute--has the camera already been released in Japan? Or is this another beta tester?

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Yes, it appears that the first deliveries in Japan started yesterday (depending on your time zone).

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    I was thinking it was taken at f/2 - f/2.8, have a look on aperture:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotois/...57626059913905

    and oryginal size:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotois/...7626059913905/

  39. #189
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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Anyone received a more recent update from Monza on availability?
    V/r John

  40. #190
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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing


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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    John, I sent out an email on 3/3, I guess you didn't get it. Will forward...

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    I posted that before I got your email.
    V/r John

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    Re: Fujifilm X-100 testimonies surfacing

    Quote Originally Posted by tom in mpls View Post
    And why not? I love the ability to shoot without flash and have minimal noise. All DSLR size sensors seem to do a fine job now when there's lots of light.
    The Fuji x100 built in flash is so good you might want to reconsider using flash just to exploit its capabilities.

    Here's one taken with flash at iso3200...amazing.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/paparaz...in/photostream

    There are more pics taken at iso3200 in my stream
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/paparazzi666/

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