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Thread: x100 - why I'm selling mine

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    Why compare a $1K+ x100 with a $6K+ M9?

    Instead would like to know how the IQ of the X100 compares with a used M8 that is only double the price?
    . . . . . or a new NEX 5n which is about half the price

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by cosinaphile View Post
    having read thru all the comments , i would have to agree that even though the leica m9 gives better iq at low isos , i must say that at 3200 iso and above which street shooters must use at dusk or night , the x 100 shines and the m9 files approach ,unuseable
    the m9 is a fin ecamera , but its cost with even a modest lens , is astronomical and it simply isnt an option for most of the citizens of the world... sadly.

    thare seems to be a strange disconnect in the world today where those folks , a tiny fraction of us can buy and use 10s of thousands of dollars without a second thought
    forget the reality of the world today , its very charming to use a m9 to photograph peasant children in a third world country , but easy to forget that an m 9 kit represents
    an amount of money that could change the destiny of an entire village and provide life saving medicines and food for thousand of victims of the economic disparity that is primiarily the result of rich nations victimizing the unempowered people of the world

    so it is that people that sit atop oil fields in Nigeria live at the edge of survival
    and those atop fields of diamonds see their children hungry or die of curable ailments

    i will shoot with my x 100 my x 10 and micro 43 equipment , theres thousands invested here too ....forget every thing i just wrote ,

    i feel no guilt about wearing my leather shoes , but would never ever own a fur i guess that what i mean about the price of a camera... there is a vague line ,here lies excess....
    So where is the "moral border"? Do you suggest to give up every bit of "luxury" and donate it? What is luxury? Is paying 100$ for shoes luxury if you can get 10 pairs for 10$ each, use one pair and donate 9 pairs?

    I dont understand your opinion, so do you say its is morally bad to spend much money for a camera, and then you include yourself being morally bad because you are one of those folks who spend a lot of money for a camera? (even if the x100 is less than an M9 it is still a lot as you write)

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    I dont understand your opinion, so do you say its is morally bad to spend much money for a camera, and then you include yourself being morally bad because you are one of those folks who spend a lot of money for a camera?

    maybe human just like most of the rest of us

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    What is an X100?

    thats an easy one , its the camera the leica x1 should have been

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Yes indeed - but everyone's vague line is somewhere different, and as Marc says, the fact that one uses an expensive camera doesn't really indicate how one runs one's life.

    Still, the X100's pretty expensive as well!

    Just to step out of the quagmire of guilt and world politics, . . and back into cameras:
    My problem with the X100 was that I thought it was fiddly, I found it hard to see what was in focus and when, it had 80000 options I didn't need, didn't want, and couldn't readily switch off.

    Assuming that I didn't (couldn't) have an M9, but that i could afford an X100, then I'd unquestionably get a NEX 5n with a viewfinder, an M adapter and a nice CV lense - better high ISO, nicer to use, more flexible (not as sexy to look at though, and not as quiet).

    But that's just me
    i think the x 100 is currently the best camera bargain on planet earth
    1200 dollars for a real camera with a fantastic"35mm" f2 lens psam that emerges naturally thru the interaction of a real shutter speed dial and real f stop ring , its construction and iq are beyond reproach
    and it hasnt lost a file or eaten an sd card for breakfast yet i dont find it fiddily but its certainly not as intuitive as my gxr with m lenses is ....
    if you keep it basic use manual for focus [aka autofocus with the afl button on back ]and manual exposure or A priority the x 100 can be a very satisfying camera to use... better color balance in challenging light better exposure better fill flash and accurate highly detailed files that look better to my eye than my d 7000 , or any apsc camera i know of in my limited experience
    i was not trying to lay a guilt trip on anyone , simply muse on economic disparity as it relates to things human and camera... yes thats an excellent point.... that vague line could lie anywhere , most shooters ive met who use m 8s and m 9s are sensitive intelligent people who are well aware and not indifferent to the suffering in the world and i didnt suggest otherwise

    and i included myself and my equipment cost in my musing , and said to forget everything ive said . something dome people got here , but others didnt

    sorry you didnt love the x 100 past its weak point s , and theirs a few....
    my x 10 is a much more finished product imho .
    i hope the upcoming lx is also fully realized when it ships

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Assuming that I didn't (couldn't) have an M9, but that i could afford an X100, then I'd unquestionably get a NEX 5n with a viewfinder, an M adapter and a nice CV lense - better high ISO, nicer to use, more flexible (not as sexy to look at though, and not as quiet).
    Sorry Jono, but to me that sounds like the infamous (misattributed) quote of Marie Antoinette: Let them eat cake!

    I mean, you're talking about which cheaper or more expensive camera to use with some M mount lenses. M mount lenses, which tend to cost $$$$ and not exactly everybody has around.


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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    What is an X100?

    Something below your pay grade Peter ...

    -Marc

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by emr View Post
    Sorry Jono, but to me that sounds like the infamous (misattributed) quote of Marie Antoinette: Let them eat cake!

    I mean, you're talking about which cheaper or more expensive camera to use with some M mount lenses. M mount lenses, which tend to cost $$$$ and not exactly everybody has around.

    Off with his head!

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    I dont understand your opinion, so do you say its is morally bad to spend much money for a camera, and then you include yourself being morally bad because you are one of those folks who spend a lot of money for a camera?

    maybe human just like most of the rest of us


    Why this forum? Take a gander at the Medium Format Digital area where a Leica M9 would be a poor man's camera ...

    Perhaps all this guilt trip business belongs in the Sunset Cafe part of the forum?

    -Marc

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by emr View Post
    Sorry Jono, but to me that sounds like the infamous (misattributed) quote of Marie Antoinette: Let them eat cake!

    I mean, you're talking about which cheaper or more expensive camera to use with some M mount lenses. M mount lenses, which tend to cost $$$$ and not exactly everybody has around.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Off with his head!
    THUD

    It does sound rather like that doesn't it? - Not really what I meant, but I stand convicted!

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    I wasn't being disingenuous when I asked the question many months ago I do know what the camera is today though.

    I have been making a lot of shots with my new Iphone lately - great for happy snaps. I am also considering buying one of those Sony Nex cameras - because I discovered accidentally that you can make sweeping panoramas in camera with it - I have been looking for something that digitally mimics some of what the XPAn does.

    If anyone has a better idea about that I would be grateful 'all ears' reader!

    Pete

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Let's get back to the topic and ignore the trolls...

    I can understand the argumentation of Jono, but some of you mentioned already, this is a very personal decision, influenced by the alternatives Jono already has.

    If someone does not have yet Leica M body or Leica M glasses, the decision making process will be definitely different.

    If i.e. someone wants to have a small but capable camera (no DSLR) with a kind of rangefinder feeling and an OVF, there is simply no alternative to the Fuji X100 out there

    I used both, X100 and Sony NEX. The image quality of the X100 is already so good for my needs, that the benefit of a potential marginal "more" IQ of a NEX 5N is no value driver for me (I will sell mine with a lot of Contax G lenses)

    But the NEX 5 does not have an OVF. The optional EVF is no alternative because if you think this process until the end, you will realize that the whole NEX concept is no concept at all as long as there are no native small lenses offered and an integrated EVF or OVF (i.e. Nex7)

    I do not see the point of a "Lego" build strategey, that I have to purchase this and that addionally to have one day finally what I wanted at the beginning.

    The NEX body is really tiny, the offered lenses are so big, that it is more a Pentax DSLR competition or Leica M competition in terms of size.

    As soon as you look at the NEX system not as a back-up for existing Leica lenses, the whole system does not make anymore that much sense. And as we all now, Sony originally did not intend to target this system to enthusiast photographers. It was meant for mass market life style people with no other system or lenses at home. Just look at the broschures and you understand my point.

    So IMHO it is totally logical. that leica M users have no real benefit with a X100. They will tend naturally more to NEX system to be able to use it with their already existing glasses.

    But the thread should not mislead readers. The X100 and even more the upcoming Fuji LX is the answer to a long existing wish of many photographers. And it delivers 100%.

    It is not the question whether someone has the money for Leica M or not. It is a quetion whether you want to live with so many compromises at a price level this high. I used to have a M6 and know what I am talking about.

    Let's face it: Leica is not the owner of a RF concept. They had never a patent on this AFAIK. They are by accident the only ones who offered it continiously over decades and went almost bankrupt with it. Others offered RF too over a shorter period of time.

    If Leica would have had more money in the past, they would not have killed their DSLR segment. So this was not a choice of better system (RF vs. DSLR), it was a choice of how many loyal customers they have in this or that segment after everybody bought DSLRs from different brands.

    But we are now in the digital world. Leica is no innovator here. And the question I ask myself is why I should invest a lot of money in a Leica System, that was optimized for the analogue world, with a concept of 1950.

    If you just look at how many Leica M users buy now Sony NEX, and how big the demand is for the Fuji X100, I would get worried if I would be in the shoes of Leica. The next step for loyal Leica M-customers because of lack of alternatives in the past is only a small step.

    With the Fuji X100 you can see how a "RF concept" of the year 2011 should look like and where the market will go over the next decades.

    The X100 is for the digital world a very expensive camera. But it addresses my needs of 2011 a lot better than a Leica which basically did not change since 1950. If Fuji will offer Fullframe with the upcoming LX, we can count the number of postings here who will buy one

    IMHO it is not a question of "whether", it is more a question of "when", the market share of the Leica M system will decrease significantly. If they do not respond with a better concept than minor improvements over an M9 you will see the same development as in Medium Format over the last 10 years.

    Just my 2 cents...
    Last edited by memories; 17th November 2011 at 01:20.

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post


    Perhaps all this guilt trip business belongs in the Sunset Cafe part of the forum?

    -Marc
    THUD

    +1. Just penned a long diatribe about Imelda Marcos and the X100 that went awol due to a fortuitous operator error just as I pressed the button to post it on the Sunset Bar.
    Last edited by lowep; 17th November 2011 at 02:24.

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Hi There
    I won't answer all of your points, just maybe one or two
    Quote Originally Posted by memories View Post
    With the Fuji X100 you can see how a "RF concept" of the year 2011 should look like and where the market will go over the next decades. .
    But it isn't a rangefinder - it's a hybrid viewfinder. Whether rangefinders should exist in the modern world or not is a moot point . . . but whether the X100 is a rangefinder or not isn't . . .it isn't!
    Quote Originally Posted by memories View Post


    IMHO it is not a question of "whether", it is more a question of "when", the market share of the Leica M system will decrease significantly. If they do not respond with a better concept than minor improvements over an M9 you will see the same development as in Medium Format over the last 10 years.

    Just my 2 cents...
    But MF has rocketed over the last year or so . . and Leica is in profit for the first time in several decades. . . . . whilst the price of the X100 is dropping week by week.

    Of course, there is no more reason for you to like the M concept than there is for me to like the X100. But using the X100 as a weapon for the demise of Leica seems a little cataclysmic!

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by lowep View Post
    THUD

    +1. Just penned a long diatribe about Imelda Marcos and the X100 that went awol due to a fortuitous operator error just as I pressed the button to post it on the Sunset Bar.
    it's happened to me several times - isn't a relief!

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I wasn't being disingenuous when I asked the question many months ago I do know what the camera is today though.

    I have been making a lot of shots with my new Iphone lately - great for happy snaps. I am also considering buying one of those Sony Nex cameras - because I discovered accidentally that you can make sweeping panoramas in camera with it - I have been looking for something that digitally mimics some of what the XPAn does.

    If anyone has a better idea about that I would be grateful 'all ears' reader!

    Pete
    no Peter - that's a really good idea (the NEX 5n) make sure that you get the add on viewfinder, and also the Leica R adapter, and then you can use all those lovely R lenses with it.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Jono

    I don't know what is happening to price in the U.K. but here in the U.S. dealers like B&H photo and Amazon and Adorama are still selling at US$ 1199 and there is still a backlog issue. So folks here are apparently O.K. with the current price. I had the original version, with all of its firmware pitfalls and returned it (for full price.) I recently bought another (at the $1199 price) and am so glad I did. The firmware fixes have dealt with most of the annoyances of the original and the IQ is beyond reproach. A fixed focal length lens is not for all but what I wanted was a carry around camera which was never out of reach and which had superior image quality to the P&S crowd. I use my S2 system when I am doing serious landscape or portrait work. Love the combination and plan to stick with these tools for quite a long time.

    I would love an M9 and four lenses but having bought the (for me) far superior S2 system I couldn't possibly afford it (the divorce that is LOL!)

    Woody

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There
    I won't answer all of your points, just maybe one or two
    But it isn't a rangefinder - it's a hybrid viewfinder. Whether rangefinders should exist in the modern world or not is a moot point . . . but whether the X100 is a rangefinder or not isn't . . .it isn't!


    But MF has rocketed over the last year or so . . and Leica is in profit for the first time in several decades. . . . . whilst the price of the X100 is dropping week by week.

    Of course, there is no more reason for you to like the M concept than there is for me to like the X100. But using the X100 as a weapon for the demise of Leica seems a little cataclysmic!

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by memories View Post
    Let's get back to the topic and ignore the trolls...

    I can understand the argumentation of Jono, but some of you mentioned already, this is a very personal decision, influenced by the alternatives Jono already has.

    If someone does not have yet Leica M body or Leica M glasses, the decision making process will be definitely different.

    If i.e. someone wants to have a small but capable camera (no DSLR) with a kind of rangefinder feeling and an OVF, there is simply no alternative to the Fuji X100 out there

    I used both, X100 and Sony NEX. The image quality of the X100 is already so good for my needs, that the benefit of a potential marginal "more" IQ of a NEX 5N is no value driver for me (I will sell mine with a lot of Contax G lenses)

    But the NEX 5 does not have an OVF. The optional EVF is no alternative because if you think this process until the end, you will realize that the whole NEX concept is no concept at all as long as there are no native small lenses offered and an integrated EVF or OVF (i.e. Nex7)

    I do not see the point of a "Lego" build strategey, that I have to purchase this and that addionally to have one day finally what I wanted at the beginning.

    The NEX body is really tiny, the offered lenses are so big, that it is more a Pentax DSLR competition or Leica M competition in terms of size.

    As soon as you look at the NEX system not as a back-up for existing Leica lenses, the whole system does not make anymore that much sense. And as we all now, Sony originally did not intend to target this system to enthusiast photographers. It was meant for mass market life style people with no other system or lenses at home. Just look at the broschures and you understand my point.

    So IMHO it is totally logical. that leica M users have no real benefit with a X100. They will tend naturally more to NEX system to be able to use it with their already existing glasses.

    But the thread should not mislead readers. The X100 and even more the upcoming Fuji LX is the answer to a long existing wish of many photographers. And it delivers 100%.

    It is not the question whether someone has the money for Leica M or not. It is a quetion whether you want to live with so many compromises at a price level this high. I used to have a M6 and know what I am talking about.

    Let's face it: Leica is not the owner of a RF concept. They had never a patent on this AFAIK. They are by accident the only ones who offered it continiously over decades and went almost bankrupt with it. Others offered RF too over a shorter period of time.

    If Leica would have had more money in the past, they would not have killed their DSLR segment. So this was not a choice of better system (RF vs. DSLR), it was a choice of how many loyal customers they have in this or that segment after everybody bought DSLRs from different brands.

    But we are now in the digital world. Leica is no innovator here. And the question I ask myself is why I should invest a lot of money in a Leica System, that was optimized for the analogue world, with a concept of 1950.

    If you just look at how many Leica M users buy now Sony NEX, and how big the demand is for the Fuji X100, I would get worried if I would be in the shoes of Leica. The next step for loyal Leica M-customers because of lack of alternatives in the past is only a small step.

    With the Fuji X100 you can see how a "RF concept" of the year 2011 should look like and where the market will go over the next decades.

    The X100 is for the digital world a very expensive camera. But it addresses my needs of 2011 a lot better than a Leica which basically did not change since 1950. If Fuji will offer Fullframe with the upcoming LX, we can count the number of postings here who will buy one

    IMHO it is not a question of "whether", it is more a question of "when", the market share of the Leica M system will decrease significantly. If they do not respond with a better concept than minor improvements over an M9 you will see the same development as in Medium Format over the last 10 years.

    Just my 2 cents...
    This is not a new argument. It is one vociferously forwarded decade-after-decade at each new turn of technology. The Leica M killers came with flags and fanfare, and they ALL vanished with a sigh and a whimper.

    The M endures for a reason.


    -Marc

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Thanks Jono - I think I will buy a nex to try how good the nexpan function is...

    Marc - the only thing that will make the M redundant as it is - will be my eyesight - I just visited my optometrist today complaning about marginal loss of long distance accuity - and after the usual techno checkups etc....she annouced that I would need a new prescription - as my short sightednes hs become less short sighted!? hahahha

    * PS I also discovered a new technology ( for me) and an old technology for most - they are called "desk glass presritptions" a pair of glasses specifically made to maximise sharpness around yoruy desk for those who spend long hours staring at screens etc...WOW!

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    I love my X100 as the fill in for my long sold M9 outfit. If you enjoy the 35mm focal length then I find it's a great travel complement to the "big stuff". If I still had my Leicas then I can totally understand why it would seem like a superfluous system - lets face it, it's a somewhat automated alternative for an M9 & 35/2.8 (if you consider that at 23mm f/2 doesn't compare to a 35 summicron).

    When I buy back in to a Leica M I know it'll be a similar problem for me - the M9 has been such a great system that I still miss it every day and would shoot it in preference to any other portable camera.

    Peter: ah yes, the fun of glasses. I hit that age where I can't see anything close up any more and so now it's a relief to just let it go and have several pairs for various purposes. I have reading, computer/desk work glasses and then full progressives for everything else. Having specialized solutions for different tasks isn't cheap but makes things so much easier!
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    I made some very nice images with the X-100 but, like a number of folk here, I sold mine; for once (as I bought it here second hand) I did not lose on it.

    For me, the X-100 felt slow, and despite using it constantly for weeks on my last trip, I never did get that efficient 'flow' feeling in the way I was using it; I found myself continuing to have to 'think' about what I was doing in order to do it. Lovely finder, to be sure, though. I often had to press the shutter button get it out of some snooze loop it had settled into. As well, and this did surprise me, I found the fixed 35mm EFOV lens limiting.

    I have bought a new X-10, and I am finding that I really like it and for the purpose the IQ is excellent. Memory is cheap enough these days to shoot raw and jpegs at full resolution (I tell myself if I do happen on an extraordinary opportunity I can PP anything I need to), but I am shooting this little toy on Auto-EXR most of the time—and the JPEGs are lovely. I shoot it wide open most of the time, too.

    The X-10 has excellent ergonomics; very fast AF point selection process, and seems to have little or no shutter lag. Finally, I still have a lot of images I made with the D2/LC1 that I still like; I mention this because these cameras also had 2/3" sensors (tho' many generations older). The X-10 feel sorted, and I find it versatile. It will be the camera I take on the road next trip, I think.

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by kit laughlin View Post
    I found myself continuing to have to 'think' about what I was doing in order to do it. Lovely finder, to be sure, though. I often had to press the shutter button get it out of some snooze loop it had settled into. As well, and this did surprise me, I found the fixed 35mm EFOV lens limiting.
    I though the X100 was designed to be a "thinkers" camera. Old school dials to set aperture/shutter speed etc, you could however always put the X100 on full auto A+A mode and sit back enjoy, so you have both options. Yes, I am sometimes finding 35mm limited too but I am more used to 28mm on the GRD is affecting me - I am not so used to 35mm anymore. I see the X10 a companion to the X100.

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    This is not a new argument. It is one vociferously forwarded decade-after-decade at each new turn of technology. The Leica M killers came with flags and fanfare, and they ALL vanished with a sigh and a whimper.

    The M endures for a reason.

    -Marc
    Hi Marc

    ... but the gap between a M"x" and products simlar or (in the future) better than the X100 becomes smaller and smaller with each innovation cycle of the competition. One generation of M takes time like 2-3 generations of other producers. Everyone can do the math for himself.

    I bet that a Fuji X100 without AA filter would give the M9 already nowadays a harder run for the image quality

    But each one for his own. I just do not believe, that the majority of M-owners or potential buyers will be willing to spend 10x the money of an X-system if they find out that the difference in image quality will be not there anymore in the short future (i.e within the next 2-3 years). But maybe I am wrong with this opinion.

    I still find the M9 very attractive. But not because of image quality vs. X100. I just want to have fullframe and no AA filter. That is what I am missing the most. As soon as somebody else is offering this with similar IQ and at a reasonable price, the Leica M-system will be deleted from my wish list.

    I am neither a professional nor a collector. So I do not care about history and "image" (=red dot) is not important for me. I am only interested in results with a reasonabe price/perfomance ratio. And this is getting each year better. But this is only my personal view, which might be too extreme for others.

    Actually the improvement in IQ becomes less important over the next cycles for me, since I am already now pleased with a very high IQ. The lack of AA filter and fullframe are for me the next 2 important steps in the industry, which would make me buy something new - depending on price.

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by memories View Post
    Hi Marc

    ... but the gap between a M"x" and products simlar or (in the future) better than the X100 becomes smaller and smaller with each innovation cycle of the competition. One generation of M takes time like 2-3 generations of other producers. Everyone can do the math for himself.

    I bet that a Fuji X100 without AA filter would give the M9 already nowadays a harder run for the image quality

    But each one for his own. I just do not believe, that the majority of M-owners or potential buyers will be willing to spend 10x the money of an X-system if they find out that the difference in image quality will be not there anymore in the short future (i.e within the next 2-3 years). But maybe I am wrong with this opinion.

    I still find the M9 very attractive. But not because of image quality vs. X100. I just want to have fullframe and no AA filter. That is what I am missing the most. As soon as somebody else is offering this with similar IQ and at a reasonable price, the Leica M-system will be deleted from my wish list.

    I am neither a professional nor a collector. So I do not care about history and "image" (=red dot) is not important for me. I am only interested in results with a reasonabe price/perfomance ratio. And this is getting each year better. But this is only my personal view, which might be too extreme for others.

    Actually the improvement in IQ becomes less important over the next cycles for me, since I am already now pleased with a very high IQ. The lack of AA filter and fullframe are for me the next 2 important steps in the industry, which would make me buy something new - depending on price.
    History and image has some impact ... but it is because it is a tradition of being a rangefinder in the face of all types of challenges. The Contax G with it's excellent Zeiss auto-focus optics and rangefinder type size and viewfinder window was supposed to be a M killer ... but it wasn't a rangefinder camera ... and is history now.

    Leica has done more than okay with the M9. When it came into being, the IQ either held its own with the other similarly priced so called pro-cameras, or exceeded it. Specifications aside, many M9 users still believe there is no current 35mm camera, full frame or APSC, that can exceed the M9's IQ.

    If sensor technology even's out the playing field where the actual IQ off the sensor is not the point of difference ... we are simply back to the same comparison as when all cameras used film ... you could put any film in any camera and the medium of capture would be equal ... Leica still sold Ms ...

    Because they are rangefinders ... and have continued to be the best one out there.

    -Marc

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by memories View Post
    But each one for his own. I just do not believe, that the majority of M-owners or potential buyers will be willing to spend 10x the money of an X-system if they find out that the difference in image quality will be not there anymore in the short future (i.e within the next 2-3 years). But maybe I am wrong with this opinion.
    But I don't think you're right. People who only use an M because of the Image quality soon move away to something more conventional - be it an SLR or a compact camera.

    However, many of us who use an M do so because of the fixed focal length viewfinder and the framelines, with the ability to look outside the frame and decide what isn't in the image as well as what's in the image, and with the very accurate, visible and controllable manual focus - those people aren't going to be impressed by anything that's on offer at the moment -

    As Marc says - the Contax G was designed as an M killer, and despite price advantages and very good lenses it failed.

    The point is that the 'shortcomings' of the Leica M are actually it's strengths, and the fact that the concept is 50 years old doesn't alter this fact.

    Basically, if the operation of an M floats your boat, and the image quality is good, there are lots of people who will use them - and this is not just oldies who have been using them for years, but also new users who discover the elegant simplicity of the operation and the lovely lenses.

    It's a classic example of If it's not broken . . . don't fix it - as far as I can see all the competition is trying to fix it, whilst it's only really in Leica's power to actually break it.

    Just this guy you know

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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Smile I hate to sound like a broken record.. or skipping CD..

    Leica, to me, is about the glass. I do believe Leica makes the best glass on the planet and their are some very good competitors as well but Leica still rules in the glass department for manual focus lenses and quality.

    Now, about the rangefinder bodies.. there are those who love them and I respect that. I understand the "Leica Experience"..

    What I want is a camera that has the form factor of the Leica M or something very close to it and the ability to use M lenses on it.. BUT.. you do not rely on a rangefinder mechanisim for focus but rather an alternative method of manual focus.. focus peaking may be a close answer. I really don't have the answer for such a focus system.

    I am not interested in spending $7K on a camera body but would consider investing in Leica glass.

    The NEX-7 is not the camera I wish to use but the form factor is close to what I desire.

    If Fuji delivered a FF camera in the form factor of the X100 with M-Mount capabiity via an adaptor (and the sensor was as good or better than the sensor in the M9) I would be in line for such a camera and begin to buy Leica glass for it.

    We live in interesting times as photographers. Many have dumped their DSLRs for smaller systems, self included but we still have not been offered a camera that meets the rangefinder form factor and allows us to use those wonderful Leica M lenses with truly great focus accuracy.

    [Sidebar] I sent a letter to Santa asking for an M9 and a couple of lenses.. the reply I got back was.. ho Ho HO.. not going to happen, Jim!

    I still wish that Leica would produce a digital CL style camera with at least and APSC sensor that did not depend on a rangefinder mechanism for focus but would allow M mount lenses to be used on it as thier entry level Leica rather than something like a rebadged Panasonic or the X1.

    Yes, I wish I could afford an M9 and lovely glass but financially, it is out of my reach. I keep hoping Leica will produce an affordable entry level M system of some kind but I doubt they will ever do so. The word "affordable" and Leica are rarely used in the same sentence. Maybe one day Zeiss will produce a digital system.. who knows.. as I said, we live in interesting times as photographers.

    Here's looking to the future.. I hope Fuji has a real trick up thier sleeves for 2012 with an interchangeable lens system that will accept M-Mount lenses in some way.

    Merry Christmas to all and to all good shooting!
    Jim Radcliffe
    www.boxedlight.com

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    But I don't think you're right. People who only use an M because of the Image quality soon move away to something more conventional - be it an SLR or a compact camera.

    However, many of us who use an M do so because of the fixed focal length viewfinder and the framelines, with the ability to look outside the frame and decide what isn't in the image as well as what's in the image, and with the very accurate, visible and controllable manual focus - those people aren't going to be impressed by anything that's on offer at the moment -

    As Marc says - the Contax G was designed as an M killer, and despite price advantages and very good lenses it failed.

    The point is that the 'shortcomings' of the Leica M are actually it's strengths, and the fact that the concept is 50 years old doesn't alter this fact.

    Basically, if the operation of an M floats your boat, and the image quality is good, there are lots of people who will use them - and this is not just oldies who have been using them for years, but also new users who discover the elegant simplicity of the operation and the lovely lenses.

    It's a classic example of If it's not broken . . . don't fix it - as far as I can see all the competition is trying to fix it, whilst it's only really in Leica's power to actually break it.
    " ... as far as I can see all the competition is trying to fix it, whilst it's only really in Leica's power to actually break it."

    Best line in the entire thread!

    -Marc

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    Re: I hate to sound like a broken record.. or skipping CD..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    What I want is a camera that has the form factor of the Leica M or something very close to it and the ability to use M lenses on it.. BUT.. you do not rely on a rangefinder mechanisim for focus but rather an alternative method of manual focus.. focus peaking may be a close answer. I really don't have the answer for such a focus system.
    Jim, over on another Leica forum when the M9 was announced I submitted the idea of an FF M9 without the "top deck". IE: no Rangefinder mechanism. My understanding is that this is an extremely expensive part of the M, it needs alignment and complex glass. The idea was for a machine similar to the M1 or maybe more like a digital Bessa L. I think with an LCD only, it would make a fine backpackers landscape camera. Accessing M glass as you say. I was of course told no one would buy it, it would be no cheaper to make and generally told it was a rubbish idea. I Still.. see occasional posts like yours that make we wonder if such a machine would have niche. It would not need to be made by Leica, maybe Fuji would do a better job.

    A Nex5 with M adapter is a close approximation but something more akin to a FF body with a moderate pixel count is what I hope for. My want for FF is to utilize those M wide-angles, which is the M's strength. I'll trade pixel count if it helps keep the cost down.

    I'd line up to buy one.

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    Re: I hate to sound like a broken record.. or skipping CD..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    Leica, to me, is about the glass. I do believe Leica makes the best glass on the planet and their are some very good competitors as well but Leica still rules in the glass department for manual focus lenses and quality.

    Now, about the rangefinder bodies.. there are those who love them and I respect that. I understand the "Leica Experience"..

    What I want is a camera that has the form factor of the Leica M or something very close to it and the ability to use M lenses on it.. BUT.. you do not rely on a rangefinder mechanisim for focus but rather an alternative method of manual focus.. focus peaking may be a close answer. I really don't have the answer for such a focus system.

    I am not interested in spending $7K on a camera body but would consider investing in Leica glass.

    The NEX-7 is not the camera I wish to use but the form factor is close to what I desire.

    If Fuji delivered a FF camera in the form factor of the X100 with M-Mount capabiity via an adaptor (and the sensor was as good or better than the sensor in the M9) I would be in line for such a camera and begin to buy Leica glass for it.

    We live in interesting times as photographers. Many have dumped their DSLRs for smaller systems, self included but we still have not been offered a camera that meets the rangefinder form factor and allows us to use those wonderful Leica M lenses with truly great focus accuracy.

    [Sidebar] I sent a letter to Santa asking for an M9 and a couple of lenses.. the reply I got back was.. ho Ho HO.. not going to happen, Jim!

    I still wish that Leica would produce a digital CL style camera with at least and APSC sensor that did not depend on a rangefinder mechanism for focus but would allow M mount lenses to be used on it as thier entry level Leica rather than something like a rebadged Panasonic or the X1.

    Yes, I wish I could afford an M9 and lovely glass but financially, it is out of my reach. I keep hoping Leica will produce an affordable entry level M system of some kind but I doubt they will ever do so. The word "affordable" and Leica are rarely used in the same sentence. Maybe one day Zeiss will produce a digital system.. who knows.. as I said, we live in interesting times as photographers.

    Here's looking to the future.. I hope Fuji has a real trick up thier sleeves for 2012 with an interchangeable lens system that will accept M-Mount lenses in some way.

    Merry Christmas to all and to all good shooting!
    I personally appreciate the civil manner in respecting those who prefer the rangefinder experience, and in return it is easy to respect your desires. I do think your wishes will come true ... but I do not think current focus peaking technology is the answer IF you like faster glass and like to shoot in lower light ... conditions where I found it ineffective and not very accurate.

    What I do think may be possible is a simple manual focus confirmation linked to the AF sensors in the new wave of smaller cameras (which are already AF). EVF should make this a snap to do. Heck, they may already have such a thing for I know ... LOL!

    Then it just has to be implemented in a FF camera of a more demure size. If it happens, I'd bet it'll be Sony ... they make sensors, and have deep pockets.

    -Marc

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    Re: I hate to sound like a broken record.. or skipping CD..

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Jim, over on another Leica forum when the M9 was announced I submitted the idea of an FF M9 without the "top deck". IE: no Rangefinder mechanism. My understanding is that this is an extremely expensive part of the M, it needs alignment and complex glass. The idea was for a machine similar to the M1 or maybe more like a digital Bessa L. I think with an LCD only, it would make a fine backpackers landscape camera. Accessing M glass as you say. I was of course told no one would buy it, it would be no cheaper to make and generally told it was a rubbish idea. I Still.. see occasional posts like yours that make we wonder if such a machine would have niche. It would not need to be made by Leica, maybe Fuji would do a better job.

    A Nex5 with M adapter is a close approximation but something more akin to a FF body with a moderate pixel count is what I hope for. My want for FF is to utilize those M wide-angles, which is the M's strength. I'll trade pixel count if it helps keep the cost down.

    I'd line up to buy one.
    I'm with you. I've always loved Leica but I have also been a critic of Leica on a number of levels. There is no denying their glass is top shelf.
    Jim Radcliffe
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    Re: I hate to sound like a broken record.. or skipping CD..

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I personally appreciate the civil manner in respecting those who prefer the rangefinder experience, and in return it is easy to respect your desires. I do think your wishes will come true ... but I do not think current focus peaking technology is the answer IF you like faster glass and like to shoot in lower light ... conditions where I found it ineffective and not very accurate.

    What I do think may be possible is a simple manual focus confirmation linked to the AF sensors in the new wave of smaller cameras (which are already AF). EVF should make this a snap to do. Heck, they may already have such a thing for I know ... LOL!

    Then it just has to be implemented in a FF camera of a more demure size. If it happens, I'd bet it'll be Sony ... they make sensors, and have deep pockets.

    -Marc
    Marc, I never wish to detract from the expeirence of using a rangefinder. My first real camera was an Argus C3 RF and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed my M8 as well but had way too much money tied up in a camera that could not be considered my "main" camera.. and so I sold it.

    I hope something along the lines of what I desire appears before I am too old to use it. I will be very surpised if Leica is the company to produce it.

    The phrase "A Leica for the rest of us" has been used on numerous forums and I think that most will agree that the X1 and rebadged Panasonics are not what people mean when they use that phrase.
    Jim Radcliffe
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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Simplification of equipment is always a good thing for your photography (using "your" in general). And like you said, it doesn't mean the X100 is bad. I wish more people in different internet forums understood this concept.

    I like my Q, will be selling my LX5, doesn't mean I think the LX5 is horrible.

    - Ricardo

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Hi

    I read this thread with great interest as I discovered it after I just bought a spanking new X100.

    I started using Leica Ms in 2002 with a new M6TTL and a 35cron ASPH, and in a temporary fit of madness, sold them (together with a lovely 28mm cron, which I really miss) when I got married a few years back.

    The rangefinder experience is real and very tangible and a bit part of the draw of the Leica Ms for me. Sadly, prices today are so stratospherically high that I am no longer willing to buy any Leica equipment new today. (My M6 and 35cron ASPH, both bought NEW in 2002 have a combined price which could hardly afford a new 35cron ASPH in today's crazy market.....)

    Looking for a digital solution, I waited out the M8 launch with great anticipation and was duly disappointed with all the accompanying issues that came with it. Nevertheless sometime in 2010, I decided to give the M8 a second chance, what with all the firmware updates since then.... but I could never really connect with the same simple experience I got with the M6TTL - the requirement to use UV cut filters, corner fix, lack of viable solutions for Voigtlander lenses etc made it etc etc...

    What bugs me the most were the general unreliability issues with card reading / writing, the need to "reboot" the camera by pulling out batteries and a host of other quirks. Placed aside the solid reliable workhouse D700 which I have been using for the past 3 years, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

    For those reasons, I avoided the X100 after reading all the reviews about its quirks, inconsistencies and problems with slow AF etc etc. I have also not seen a lot of X100 samples in those reviews with people in them, and people are my main subjects, not flowers and mountains and stuff....

    However, I was eager to get back to the simple window finder experience akin to the M6, and so, 3 weeks ago, I bought the X100, with a view to selling it if it doesn't meet my expectations.

    Well 3 weeks on and my D700 has barely made it out of the dry cabinet. The X100 is a good example of not trusting everything you read online. To say I love it is probably understating it. It has, for me at least, more than replaced the M6 + 35cron experience.

    True, there is no rangefinder, so I don't get the rangefinder experience of the overlapping boxes, nor the tactile feel of turning the focus ring to line up said boxes. But the window finder is a God-send after years of working with SLRs, and here the X100 delivers a finder comparable to that of my M6, surpassing it in many instances. I have no corrupted files (actually I never had Japanese cameras corrupt files on flash cards, and I use a lot of them), the read/write is slow but bearable.

    More importantly, the reading / writing to cards does not prevent me shooting whenever I wanted. Not sure what all the online reviewers are talking about (I think they were shooting in continuous mode, maybe) but the camera always allows me to take a photo whenever I wanted, just like my M6.

    The X100 is not for everyone, but for me, it fits like a glove I guess you can call it the "Leica for the rest of us" cos I probably would not buy it as well if I have a M9 + 35cron

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    Quote Originally Posted by David Teo View Post
    The X100 is not for everyone, but for me, it fits like a glove I guess you can call it the "Leica for the rest of us" cos I probably would not buy it as well if I have a M9 + 35cron
    Ditto - I couldn't have put it better myself. It's no Leica but I bonded with it immediately and I carry mine with me everywhere. I'm now officially an X100 fan boy I suppose.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: x100 - why I'm selling mine

    People are funny. I seriously doubt Contax released the G series camera to "kill" Leica, just has Konica, Minolta, Zeiss Ikon, Voightlander, and Nikon did not release their rangefinders to eliminate the German "giant." Oddly enough, the G series were rangefinders, just not manual rangefinders.

    Rangefinders are great cameras. Just because the technology is old, does not make them obsolete. View cameras are still being used and they are an older type of camera. And all the new stuff companies are doing is great too. I really like the choices we have today to find equipment that can match the way we work or to open new ideas to us.

    I saw the X100 in Tokyo. A really nice design. Not quite my thing for reason beyond whether it works well. I am really happy companies like Fuji are trying new stuff. I think the mirrorless introduction was a really good step for photographers. What I would really like to see is manufacturers experiment with format beyond 3/2 and 4/3.

    BTW, my fun camera is the E-P1, 20mm panasonic, and Olympus VF-1 OVF.

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