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Fun with the Fuji X10

ustein

Contributing Editor
I am afraid this it the sensor (maybe even pixels leaking light to the side). Shot with which settings. Did you set Highlights to soft?
 

jonoslack

Active member
Thanks Jono - wow, what lens will you be using with the NEX7? :D

You're right though... I too have waaaay too many cameras and I'm not using any of them enough right now! :deadhorse:

Hope you're well :salute:

Brian
Hi Brian
Fab thanks - a bit busy though - hope you're good too.
NEX7 lenses eh - well, from my experience with the 5n I'd say:
E mount 18-200 (better than any mega zoom deserves to be)
Leica R mount 28 - 90 f2.8/f4.5 (I think I'm in love)
Leica 180 f2.8 APO (is also gorgeous)
E mount 16mm - I've got it, and it's better than it's reports (mine is anyway)
. . . hovering over the Zeiss 24 f1.8 but we'll see!

all the best
 

jonoslack

Active member
Re: Jono...

It's probably best you held off on the X10.. it does have one glaring wart, see my review of the issue at http://www.boxedlight.com/x10

It seems to have an issue with handling specular highlights.. some of have indicated this is caused by operator error but I am not so sure. At any rate the camera is a pleasure to use and works quite well for what and how I shoot. Love the feel of the thing and the form factor.

I had a chance to handle the NEX-7 in Austin, Texas several weeks ago and was, at the time, considering it, the form factor put me off. It just did not feel comfortable in my hands. I look forward to seeing what you get from it.
Hi Jim
My - as others say - what a bunch of great photos you have . . . . I'm not naive enough to think it's the camera :p (or at least, not just the camera).
I haven't been lucky enough to play with a NEX7, but I've spent enough time with the 5n to know that I can manage the odd interface. Sounds like it may be the new year before they turn up though.

all the best
 
Re: Jono...

Hi Jim
My - as others say - what a bunch of great photos you have . . . . I'm not naive enough to think it's the camera :p (or at least, not just the camera).
I haven't been lucky enough to play with a NEX7, but I've spent enough time with the 5n to know that I can manage the odd interface. Sounds like it may be the new year before they turn up though.

all the best
Thanks, Jono and all of those on the X10 page were shot over a 14 day period I believe.. I finally had some free time and it's no longer 105 degrees in the shade.

The NEX7 will be just like the NEX5 in handling.. my son and I went to a camera show in Austin a couple of weeks ago and they had one for people to play with, Fuji was there as well.. not a bad show for a city like Austin.

I just felt uncomfortable holding it.. but that's just me.
 
I am afraid this it the sensor (maybe even pixels leaking light to the side). Shot with which settings. Did you set Highlights to soft?
No, I made no adjustments to the highlights settings.. just camera default.

I am guessing this is a characteristic of the sensor design.. much like how the Foveon sensor in the DP1 tended to smear highlights. If that is the case, I am not sure how they could fix it with firmware.

I will probably keep the X10.. as I said in a post on DPReview, it does too many things well for the one thing it doesn't do well to cause me to return it.
 

OlliL

Member
Guys we got some half-official comment from Fuji Germany about the issue, on another forum.

Word is, that Fuji Japan is looking into the issue and will release a statement within a week, or two.

Jim , I agree with you.
The camera is a great tool, overall.
Will keep it, too.
 
One from tonight... went out for Chinese... and this shot is another reason I don't want to part with the X10. Dinner was good too.

 

Terry

New member
Interesting that the specular highlight off the hanging wok didn't create a blob nor did the high hat lights cause a problem for the sensor. Finally one other spot that could have been problematic is the metal for the exhaust hood behind the wok.

The only spot I've seen the problem seems to be very harsh highlight bouncing off of metal outdoors.

Unless you photoshopped out problems LOL :D
 
Interesting that the specular highlight off the hanging wok didn't create a blob nor did the high hat lights cause a problem for the sensor. Finally one other spot that could have been problematic is the metal for the exhaust hood behind the wok.

The only spot I've seen the problem seems to be very harsh highlight bouncing off of metal outdoors.

Unless you photoshopped out problems LOL :D
Nope.. I did not see a single Orb in this shot and because all of the light is indirect.. not head on, there are no blobs of light... also the intensity was not high enough to cause an issue.... No Photoshop involved.

The problem does exist. I've proven it to my own satisfaction.. if you've not been to my X10 section on my website, please visit.. took a water shot today and the results are as I expected.. pretty ugly.
 

Terry

New member
Oh, I've seen your blog and know that it happens and that is why I made the comments I did. I will go back and look and see if you have problem pictures on water and I will go back and look at some of my pictures that have shiny bits in bright sun.

Nope.. I did not see a single Orb in this shot and because all of the light is indirect.. not head on, there are no blobs of light... also the intensity was not high enough to cause an issue.... No Photoshop involved.

The problem does exist. I've proven it to my own satisfaction.. if you've not been to my X10 section on my website, please visit.. took a water shot today and the results are as I expected.. pretty ugly.
 

Lars

Active member
I took a look at the threads at dpreview, and to me it seems that the orb thing is a software/firmware problem. Some sample shots have orbs of different size - sun reflections in water - and I cannot see how a hardware problem could create perfectly round orbs of different sizes. Admittedly I'm no expert but I think there is reason to hope for the possibility of a firmware fix from Fuji.

Further guessing: Different size orbs would indicate that orb size is related to intensity of specular highlight. I could see how Fuji engineered its EXR tone mapping to let high intensity bloom into neighboring pixels, and for some scenes it could perhaps work well but in the case of high intensity specular highlights it obviously gets quite unattractive.
 
The white blobs should render as "stars", points of light with rays radiating out from the center point of the specular highlight.. IF proper exposure is set up before the shot is taken. That is what everyone wants the camera to render, star-like specular highlights.

There is just no telling if this is sensor related or in-camera processing related or a combination of both. I wish the problem did not exist but I believe I can live with it for what and how I shoot.

One thing I want to try...
One thing I want to try to do is set the camera to manual focus and try shooting something like a bit of chrome on an automobile which has specular highlights.. when you begin to use the fine focus wheel on the X10 it magnifys the image. This should allow me to see if the LCD displays the "Orbs" or not. If the orbs are not visible on the LCD then it might be a processing issue "after" the shutter is tripped. If the orbs are visible on the LCD then it might appear to be a sensor issue... but then who knows how much processing is going on prior to the scene being displayed on the LCD?

Bottom line is that if the orbs do not appear in the LCD and they do appear in the captured image then we might have a better handle on what is the root cause of the orbs or at least where the problem begins, before or after the shot is taken. I'll try to find time to do this today.

I have already decided that I am going to keep the X10 as, for me, the issue is not going to interfere with much of what I shoot.. but, I'm sure I will be bothered by it when it does.
 

Terry

New member
Jim,
If you are in the testing mode and have a spot where you can produce a blob, perhaps you could also try the soft highlight setting the Uwe suggested. I'm not hopeful but worth a try. Also, has anyone yet looked at the raw files?
 

retow

Member
Is my understanding correct that the X10's max shutter speed in aperture priority mode is 1/1000 only, which requires stopping down quite a bit in good light. And in sunlight does this require stopping down to levels where one has to deal with lens diffraction? This does sound like a design flaw to me, as the max. shutter speed is higher in other modes.
 

raist3d

Well-known member
Jim I just looked at the X10 water shot you referred to. Yeah, that's no goo but looking at how those dots are I think the key is to "make them work." I can see that working for a shot that looks more like a Japanese painting or the like… somehow it probably works. But that's a specific case, certainly.

I thought the X10 spot bright thing was one of these super rare things but now that you show it, seems like it can happen relatively commonly in any shot with bright spots. I would still like to check out the X10 one last time but looks like I am keeping the Q.

- Raist
 
Just finished my test...

I just returned from my lunch hour (spent hunting orbs) and they DO show up in the LCD as well as on the image captured. So, what you see is what you get as far as the X10 is concerned. Conclusion? I have none. I was hoping the orbs/blobs would not appear on the LCD so that it might be an internal processing issue which could be rectified with a firmware fix of some sort... and that still may be the case.

I certainly understand those who will return the camera due to this issue/fault and also understand those, like myself, who will keep their X10 and why. For me, when it really counts, I would be using my K5 rather than the X10 anyway. It was not purchased to be my main camera and I can live with this issue.

The X10, in the two and a half weeks I have used it, has produced some great images and it is quite versatile when you consider all the features it offers. Maybe Fuji was aware of the issue prior to going to production, maybe not. At any rate, I will keep mine because it is so good on a number of levels and it is fun to use.

I am probably done "testing" the X10 in regards to the orbs/blobs and will hope that Fuji will find a way to handle the issue. For now I will use and enjoy the X10 for what it can do very well.
 

raist3d

Well-known member
@Jim

Want to make clear I am not suggesting the x10 is bad or anything
Nor me choosing a Q over the X should imply one camera worse than the other. If I had an x10 I would try to make the "defect" work for Me.


As for showing in the LCD, yeah it should. It's the image data. Wouldn't be surprised of it was firmware fixable or not, 50/50.

Raist
 

jonoslack

Active member
Re: Just finished my test...

I am probably done "testing" the X10 in regards to the orbs/blobs and will hope that Fuji will find a way to handle the issue. For now I will use and enjoy the X10 for what it can do very well.
Indeed - quite right too - It's possible there's a camera without some sort of a glitch . . . but it's also possible there isn't :)

A time comes when it's better to simply make a decision and then enjoy what it does well (or get rid of it)

You seem to be getting great shots from yours - enjoy!
 

ustein

Contributing Editor
Also a good question to ask: Would the image be very nice with proper specular highlight rendering. Most of the time specular highlights are a PITA.
 
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