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Thread: Fun with the Fuji X10

  1. #1
    Allan Ostling
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    Fun with the Fuji X10

    I am starting this thread now, hoping to bury the earlier thread with the inappropriate title.

    There are no reviews of the camera yet, and only a handful of image samples, but as an X100 owner I'm optimistic that Fujifilm has another winner with the X10. I think mine is one of the first pre-orders accepted at Amazon for 7 November shipping.
    Last edited by Terry; 13th November 2011 at 07:01.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Ostling View Post
    I am starting this thread now, hoping to bury the earlier thread with the inappropriate title.

    There are no reviews of the camera yet, and only a handful of image samples, but as an X100 owner I'm optimistic that Fujifilm has another winner with the X10. I think mine is one of the first pre-orders accepted at Amazon for 7 November shipping.
    I can just change the title of the other thread. Why start another.

    Update: looks like I can't change it. thought I could. But honestly I don't see the big deal.


    - Raist

  3. #3
    Allan Ostling
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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Update: looks like I can't change it. thought I could. But honestly I don't see the big deal.

    - Raist
    It is merely a minor irritation to me, certainly not a big deal.

    Cannot the thread title be changed by the forum administrator?

  4. #4
    Allan Ostling
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    Re: Fuji X10

    The new samples http://www.fujifilm.com/products/dig...sample_images/ greatly expand on the initial few, and show scenes which are rich in color and detail.

  5. #5
    Allan Ostling
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    Re: Fuji X10

    So far none of the sample images have shown what the X10's EXR processor can do in S/N mode, with half the pixels paired to neighboring pixels to give a 6 megapixel image of reduced noise. I'm eager to explore the potential of this.

  6. #6
    Allan Ostling
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    Re: Fuji X10

    The comments after the new DPreview preview of the X10 http://www.dpreview.com/previews/fujifilmx10/ contain a discussion of the availability of the EXR modes. Is extended dynamic range available during RAW-only shooting? On this question the Manual is confusing.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Ostling View Post
    The comments after the new DPreview preview of the X10 http://www.dpreview.com/previews/fujifilmx10/ contain a discussion of the availability of the EXR modes. Is extended dynamic range available during RAW-only shooting? On this question the Manual is confusing.
    The preview says

    "The SN and DR modes are only available when shooting JPEGs, so those too will depend of how well Fujifilm turns a clever idea into good images"

    I have this camera on order and I am a titch disappointed with this. However we'll have to wait and see.

    Keith

  8. #8
    Allan Ostling
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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by woodmancy View Post
    The preview says
    "The SN and DR modes are only available when shooting JPEGs, so those too will depend of how well Fujifilm turns a clever idea into good images"
    Yes, but is this statement in the preview correct, or in error? That is what the comments are discussing.

    The folks at DPreview are clueless on many points of photography. For example, they say that the fast lens on the X10 will allow shallower depth of field than with a DSLR using a typical kit lens.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Ostling View Post
    Yes, but is this statement in the preview correct, or in error? That is what the comments are discussing.

    The folks at DPreview are clueless on many points of photography. For example, they say that the fast lens on the X10 will allow shallower depth of field than with a DSLR using a typical kit lens.
    Yes, I see that now - still a chance raw will have it. I see someone has theirs in the UK. I'm in Canada - does anyone know when it arrives here?

    The comments from people who have experienced the OVF are very encouraging.

    Keith

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Ostling View Post
    The folks at DPreview are clueless on many points of photography. For example, they say that the fast lens on the X10 will allow shallower depth of field than with a DSLR using a typical kit lens.
    I actually don't think you are reading their comment the way they intended.

    The lens is f2.0 with a 2/3" sensor. That is 1.5 stops faster than the kit lens for m4/3 at the wide end and and at least two stops faster at the long end (at most f2.8 for the X10 and f5.6 for the kit lens - the X10 is longer so you may only be at f2.5 at the focal where the m4/3 kit lens ends).

    I believe that what they are saying is that the wider aperture makes up for the smaller sensor size in terms of its DOF vs. DSLR with a slow lens. My numbers below on the wide end don't show this to be correct but I don't have time to look it all up and right now....but here is one comparison

    X10 at wide angle (7.1mm) f2.0 5 ft focus distance

    near limit 3.38ft
    far limit 9.64ft
    total 6.27 ft


    GH2 at wide angle 14mm f3.5 - 5 ft focus distance

    3.54 ft
    8.5 ft
    4.96 ft


    X10 at longer focal (estimated 22mm f2.5 - (f2.8 is at 28mm is longer than m/43 the kit lens goes)) 5 ft focus distance
    4.68
    5.37
    .69

    GH-2 (42mm f5.6)
    4.67 ft
    5.38 ft
    .72 ft

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Excellent Terry . . . sounds like the famous english expression:

    2/10ths of sweet f*** all.

    except that the sensor is half the size, so I guess it must be 1/10th of SFA.


    Actually I need to do some hat eating here - I've been advocating 'in between' sized sensors for ages, and Nikon with the V1 and this Fuji seem to have proved me pretty wrong; they don't represent a perfect size/performance ratio . . . . . but it does seem that maybe 4/3 actually does.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Actually there is some clarification from Andy Westlake at DPReivew when they got called out on the statements. The reply isn't 100% apples to apples because the P&S's have a longer lens than the kit lens and they are basically saying if you were limited to the one lens for each you can do more with the P&S than the kit lens with the dslr. The link provided is also pretty useful.

    "Interesting analysis, but somewhat incorrect. It doesn't matter that the X10's lens is notionally equivalent to 57/5.6 on Four Thirds, or 75/8 on APS-C, because we're comparing to the kit lenses you actually get with those cameras, i.e. 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 or 14-42mm F3.5-5.6. There's no point in comparing with nonexistent lenses. And the X10 can indeed give better subject isolation than these typical kit zooms.

    Compared to the ZX-1, things are really close. Both cameras have 112mm-equivalent lenses at the long end, but the X10's lens has a slightly larger physical aperture. This in turn means it will give fractionally more background blur."

    A second response-

    "This surprises a lot of people, but these small sensor cameras with fast lenses can indeed match SLRs with typical 18-55mm kit zooms. We demonstrated this in our review of the Olympus XZ-1:

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/OlympusXZ1/page8.asp
    (scroll down to 'Depth of field and background blur').

    Here you can see that the XZ-1 does a bit better than an 18-55mm on APS-C or a 14-42mm on Micro Four Thirds. Technically, this is because it has a similar sized physical aperture, and a slightly 'longer' lens (in terms of 35mm-equivalent focal length)."

  13. #13
    Allan Ostling
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    Re: Fuji X10

    For moderate subject distances, the total depth of field (near to far) is proportional to fnR**2 where

    f=focal length
    n=aperture
    R=reduction (= 1/magnification)

    For a subject of a given size (say a head and shoulders portrait) the reduction R is proportional to 1/L where

    L = sensor dimension

    Since we are only interested in a ratio, we can take any consistent sensor dimension in the comparison – diagonal, horizontal side, or vertical side. Choose 11 mm diagonal for 2/3" sensor, 22 mm diagonal for 4/3" sensor.

    Comparing the total depth between the X10 and a M4/3 camera shows it is a wash, using f2.8 for the X10, and f5.6 for a kit lens on an Olympus Pen E-P2, say, using the ratio of crop factors for the ration of focal lengths.

    Terry's calculations essentially agree with this.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Then the point that DPReview made was your kit lens stops at approx 85mm and the X10 gets you to 112mm which is a bit more flexible and allows you to then get a slightly shallower DOF (at a different angle of view) and then beat the dslr where you would be forced to buy another lens.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Ostling View Post
    For moderate subject distances, the total depth of field (near to far) is proportional to fnR**2 where

    f=focal length
    n=aperture
    R=reduction (= 1/magnification)

    For a subject of a given size (say a head and shoulders portrait) the reduction R is proportional to 1/L where

    L = sensor dimension

    Since we are only interested in a ratio, we can take any consistent sensor dimension in the comparison diagonal, horizontal side, or vertical side. Choose 11 mm diagonal for 2/3" sensor, 22 mm diagonal for 4/3" sensor.

    Comparing the total depth between the X10 and a M4/3 camera shows it is a wash, using f2.8 for the X10, and f5.6 for a kit lens on an Olympus Pen E-P2, say, using the ratio of crop factors for the ration of focal lengths.

    Terry's calculations essentially agree with this.
    An XZ-1 is still around f2.2 or so at the 82mm equivalent focal length and the X10 maybe around f2.4, where the mft is at f5.6. So maybe "the folks over there" are not completely incompetent after all?

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Mustn't forget Einstein's theory of relativity, which implies that depth of field is also time related.
    This means that if you are crossing the international date line on a cruise, the depth of field may change (increase or decrease, depending on which way you are going) by the cube root of the square of the hypotenuse of the right angled triangle formed by the focal length and the fourier transform of the aperture divided by pi. Personally I ignore the correction, because it is often insignificant (but I have noticed that many of my international date line pics are often a bit smudgy)



    Keith

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Ostling View Post
    Yes, but is this statement in the preview correct, or in error? That is what the comments are discussing.

    The folks at DPreview are clueless on many points of photography. For example, they say that the fast lens on the X10 will allow shallower depth of field than with a DSLR using a typical kit lens.
    Another way to see DOF comparisons is that for a given angle of view, the actual diameter of the aperture determines the perceived DOF.

    Example: A hypothetical kit lens on a DX sensor at approx normal 35 mm f/4 has 35/4 = 8.75 mm aperture. X10 is presumably about 12.7 mm focal length at normal, so 8.75 mm aperture would be about f/1.45. Clearly the X10 lens doesnt have as wide maximum aperture, so it is not a match for a kit lens in that respect.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Nice new review translated to English with Google Chrome:

    http://ztop.com.br/2011/10/24/hands-...m-finepix-x10/
    Brad Husick

  19. #19
    Allan Ostling
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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Then the point that DPReview made was your kit lens stops at approx 85mm and the X10 gets you to 112mm which is a bit more flexible and allows you to then get a slightly shallower DOF (at a different angle of view) and then beat the dslr where you would be forced to buy another lens.
    What it all boils down to, in comparing the apertures at which two camera/lens systems have the same total depth of field, is simply the ratio of crop factors for the sensors. The comparison must only be between lenses set at the same (35mm equiv) focal length.

    The ratio of the crop factors for the X10 and an APS-C sensor is (4/1.5), so the X10 at f2.8 will have the same depth of field as a Nikon DSLR at f7.5.

    f = (2.8)(4/1.5) = 7.5

    The kit lens for a DSLR will have an aperture larger than this, typically f5.6 at say 112mm. So the depth of field can be narrower (although not by much) for the larger format camera.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by woodmancy View Post
    Mustn't forget Einstein's theory of relativity, which implies that depth of field is also time related.
    This means that if you are crossing the international date line on a cruise, the depth of field may change (increase or decrease, depending on which way you are going) by the cube root of the square of the hypotenuse of the right angled triangle formed by the focal length and the fourier transform of the aperture divided by pi. Personally I ignore the correction, because it is often insignificant (but I have noticed that many of my international date line pics are often a bit smudgy)



    Keith

    Splendid, and exactly how I feel about all of this.
    I'm sure the Fuji X10 is excellent, and that it's better than the Xz-1 in some circumstances, and not in others :sleep006::sleep006:

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I'm sure the Fuji X10 is excellent, and that it's better than the Xz-1 in some circumstances, and not in others
    Yes, and you generally want to see first hand where it is better and where it falls flat. How far is that Warehouse Express?


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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Yes, and you generally want to see first hand where it is better and where it falls flat. How far is that Warehouse Express?

    HI Terry - 8 miles from the office . . . I've already got the XZ-1 - I can't get excited enough about it to make the journey!
    :sleep006:

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Not even the manual zoom?

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Not even the manual zoom?
    Hah - I just looked at the dpreview preview - Richard Butler is hardly Kai is he

    Still, I can see the point . . . but it would be as a riding camera, which is good to use one handed, which makes the manual zoom more of a disadvantage than an advantage . . . maybe I'll just stick to the NEX for now! . . . . . probably

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    Re: Fuji X10

    I'm surprised that not too many people are raving about the possibilities of the OVF. One poster in the DPreview comments who has handled the X10 says the viewfinder is as good as an SLR. This might be a refreshing change from bolt-on EVFs

    Keith

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by woodmancy View Post
    I'm surprised that not too many people are raving about the possibilities of the OVF. One poster in the DPreview comments who has handled the X10 says the viewfinder is as good as an SLR. This might be a refreshing change from bolt-on EVFs

    Keith
    Haha - I was going to write that to Jono as well but I thought to go for less is more .

    I hadn't really considered this camera but the more I see the more I like.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Its quite a different animal from an add on EVF though and not what most people are going to expect.

    What its like is an add on external finder for the hotshoe, which while cameras offer them, like the LX5 etc, even Sony has a 16mm for the NEX, in addition to being able to use any Leica, Voigtlander etc, they aren't what the average shooter really enjoys.

    I think the X10 will be fantastic focused at 2 meters, f4, and just using the OVF to frame, but that style of shooting isn't how much people work.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodmancy View Post
    I'm surprised that not too many people are raving about the possibilities of the OVF. One poster in the DPreview comments who has handled the X10 says the viewfinder is as good as an SLR. This might be a refreshing change from bolt-on EVFs

    Keith

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Millsart View Post
    Its quite a different animal from an add on EVF though and not what most people are going to expect.

    What its like is an add on external finder for the hotshoe, which while cameras offer them, like the LX5 etc, even Sony has a 16mm for the NEX, in addition to being able to use any Leica, Voigtlander etc, they aren't what the average shooter really enjoys.

    I think the X10 will be fantastic focused at 2 meters, f4, and just using the OVF to frame, but that style of shooting isn't how much people work.
    It looked like they followed the lead of Ricoh and put the focus confirm light in a position where you can see it turn green when using the OVF.

    I don't think people are expecting it to be like an EVF as people looking at this camera (or at least the ones I know) understand the differences.

    What I am most interested in seeing in using the OVF is the fluidity of the OVF zoom.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Problem with a green light, or a beep or what have you is that all you know is that the camera focused.....but on what ??

    Theres not even a center point in the OVF (wonder if it could be etched or use a sharpie etc ? lol) so you can frame the shot with the OVF, but if theres a foreground subject and a background, and you hear a beep, see a green dot out of the corner of your eye etc, how do you know if the camera picked the background or the subject ? You don't.

    Probably not a problem for shooting wide angle snapshoty stuff due to so much DoF but it sadly makes the OVF not really useful for much else other than framing.

    I was saddened by this at first, but after getting to handle the camera a bit, and seeing what a nice OVF it actually is, limitations aside, I changed my mind and ordered the camera.

    If you want an OVF/EVF type of deal, it will disapoint. If you think of it as using an external finder, its quite good.

    I had a few external finders (usually came with VC rf lenses I used to have) and I'd use them on the LX5 with it set to MF and step zoom to the proper focal length.

    I think of the X10 VF the same way, its just like carrying a bunch of external finders.

    Not going to work for knowing whats in focus or anything, but set the camera to say 35mm, focus at 2 meters and then it should be a great zone focus street machine. Shutter lag is supposed to be very minimal, and while it is only 85% view, still should be a fun experience.

    I don't think everyone will agree, but for me its a fun way to shoot sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    It looked like they followed the lead of Ricoh and put the focus confirm light in a position where you can see it turn green when using the OVF.

    I don't think people are expecting it to be like an EVF as people looking at this camera (or at least the ones I know) understand the differences.

    What I am most interested in seeing in using the OVF is the fluidity of the OVF zoom.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Thanks for the info.

    I would only use the OVF for center point focus and not when I know it has elements that can be really confusing. It really again is no different than the other OVF solutions out there.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    It looked like they followed the lead of Ricoh and put the focus confirm light in a position where you can see it turn green when using the OVF.

    I don't think people are expecting it to be like an EVF as people looking at this camera (or at least the ones I know) understand the differences.

    What I am most interested in seeing in using the OVF is the fluidity of the OVF zoom.
    That little green focus confirmation light makes the world of difference. I use it a lot with my Ricohs when I use external finders. My Sigma DP1 did not have it - and I missed it badly (alas the Sigma has passed over after saving me from tearing up my hand in a recent fall - don't take take pictures of cathedrals while walking on uneven paving stones)

    Keith

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    Re: Fuji X10

    I'd have to disagree with you on that one Terry, though bear in mind that I've only briefly handled the X10 so I'm not as well versed as someone who owns one.

    Having had a X100 as well, just from the OVF aspect alone I think its actually very different.

    The framelines adjust for parallax, which the X10 doesnt do.

    The viewfinder can display a distance scale/DoF scale, which can help confirm on what the camera has focused even though the OVF doesn't show any DoF effect

    The X100 displays the AF box, and more so on the newer FW, it also is adjusted for parallax.

    My Leica RF window's also adjust the framelines for parallax and obviously show focusing information.

    Any SLR/DSLR OVF is also going to show shooting info, AF point, DoF effect , no parallax etc

    I just don't think there really is any OVF, aside from a true external optical finder that is like the X10's. All the other ones I've used provide for a quite different experience overall.

    Not to say its useless, because I did quite enjoy it, and thinking of it as a zoomable external optical finder which just happens to be built into the camera is a great idea in my book still, but overall its limited.

    Hopefully the AF system will prove to be more accurate and reliable than the X100 though which could lead to a higher success rate with blindly hoping the camera chooses the correct point. My X100 would often fight me not to select the BG, but perhaps the X10 will prove able to select the right point enough times to trust it and shoot more just with a plain optical finder and not having to review each shot. Will be interesting to put it through its paces


    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Thanks for the info.

    I would only use the OVF for center point focus and not when I know it has elements that can be really confusing. It really again is no different than the other OVF solutions out there.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    The optical viewfinder of the X100 is a completely different animal. It is not an optical viewfinder in the way I'm talking about at all. It is a hybrid viewfinder with electronic overlays and is the first of its kind.

    I think we are just talking apples and oranges. I am talking about a dumb optical viewfinder on something like the Ricohs, Sigmas, Canon G12, the m4/3 OVF you can add to the camera, various Voigtlander or Leica finders used in the hot shoes. That is the norm in terms of compact enthusiast cameras. In those cases, working with the Ricoh GRD's, Leica X1, Sigma DPx's etc. I would bet that most people using the optical finder will use a center focus point and where available rely on the green light. This was written about extensively when each of these cameras was released as Ricoh set the standard.


    Quote Originally Posted by Millsart View Post
    I'd have to disagree with you on that one Terry, though bear in mind that I've only briefly handled the X10 so I'm not as well versed as someone who owns one.

    Having had a X100 as well, just from the OVF aspect alone I think its actually very different.

    The framelines adjust for parallax, which the X10 doesnt do.

    The viewfinder can display a distance scale/DoF scale, which can help confirm on what the camera has focused even though the OVF doesn't show any DoF effect

    The X100 displays the AF box, and more so on the newer FW, it also is adjusted for parallax.

    My Leica RF window's also adjust the framelines for parallax and obviously show focusing information.

    Any SLR/DSLR OVF is also going to show shooting info, AF point, DoF effect , no parallax etc

    I just don't think there really is any OVF, aside from a true external optical finder that is like the X10's. All the other ones I've used provide for a quite different experience overall.

    Not to say its useless, because I did quite enjoy it, and thinking of it as a zoomable external optical finder which just happens to be built into the camera is a great idea in my book still, but overall its limited.

    Hopefully the AF system will prove to be more accurate and reliable than the X100 though which could lead to a higher success rate with blindly hoping the camera chooses the correct point. My X100 would often fight me not to select the BG, but perhaps the X10 will prove able to select the right point enough times to trust it and shoot more just with a plain optical finder and not having to review each shot. Will be interesting to put it through its paces

  34. #34
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    Re: Fuji X10

    @A lot in general (little rant mode on)

    I am going to be very frank and before you shoot me, just think about what I am about to say. I think the whole train of "new camera, let's upgrade" is something that not only is very expensive, but has nothing to do with improving one's photography. I have been guilty of this myself, and I see a new camera means spending time just to get the new tool at an intuitive level.

    Sure, it can be a lot of fun to get a new toy and try to figure out the puzzle- how it behaves, what you think it can take, etc. But this has nothing to do with photography.

    On this site I have seen the following:

    - at least someone who has a perfectly fine FF A900 switch to other cameras (no obvious reason photographically speaking)
    - at least someone having the best of micro four thirds sensor wise (that's the GH2) only to get the x100 and also the latest pen (EP-3)
    - at least someone to get a pentax K-5, only to switch to other cameras. Having an A900 (!) and a (!!!!) Leica too.
    - immediate jump to an X10 as it is out now or about to be. No obvious reason.
    - lots of jump to get an X100.
    - at least someone getting an apparently perfectly fine for their needs E-5 even, expensive SHG glass if I have read correctly, mumbling a 2nd system or switch. (After having a K-5 and have been apparently happy with it).
    - lots of micro four thirds "jump to latest model" - cross brand (olympus-> Panny or Panny-> Olympus)

    Upgrade of models within months, not even a year. One has to ask: is this photography? And you know, fine if you got the time, cash and all you want is play, but it certainly is not photography (and hey, my apologies if everyone is so aware of this already).

    I made a vow to a photographer friend I am keeping the K-5 for *five years* and once I decide my pocket camera, also for five years- whatever that is. It may very well be the one I already have - an LX5.

    In the name of simplification it even crossed my mind to sell my Pentax and get an E-5 and use my E-620 just because I have a full lens system now sitting there doing nothing for the most past (though I still fire up the 420/620 from time to time).

    A friend of mine (photographer) brought the final point home to me by linking to a photographer whose camera is simply a Nikon F2- for the last 25 years of his career. There's something to be said about *really knowing* and pushing through the limits of the camera you grow intimate with. Even stuff it's not designed for with the mind that even artifacts can work to create art. To do photography.

    (end of little rant mode).

    - Ricardo
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    @A lot in general (little rant mode on)

    I am going to be very frank and before you shoot me, just think about what I am about to say. I think the whole train of "new camera, let's upgrade" is something that not only is very expensive, but has nothing to do with improving one's photography. I have been guilty of this myself, and I see a new camera means spending time just to get the new tool at an intuitive level.

    Sure, it can be a lot of fun to get a new toy and try to figure out the puzzle- how it behaves, what you think it can take, etc. But this has nothing to do with photography.

    On this site I have seen the following:

    - at least someone who has a perfectly fine FF A900 switch to other cameras (no obvious reason photographically speaking)
    - at least someone having the best of micro four thirds sensor wise (that's the GH2) only to get the x100 and also the latest pen (EP-3)
    - at least someone to get a pentax K-5, only to switch to other cameras. Having an A900 (!) and a (!!!!) Leica too.
    - immediate jump to an X10 as it is out now or about to be. No obvious reason.
    - lots of jump to get an X100.
    - at least someone getting an apparently perfectly fine for their needs E-5 even, expensive SHG glass if I have read correctly, mumbling a 2nd system or switch. (After having a K-5 and have been apparently happy with it).
    - lots of micro four thirds "jump to latest model" - cross brand (olympus-> Panny or Panny-> Olympus)

    Upgrade of models within months, not even a year. One has to ask: is this photography? And you know, fine if you got the time, cash and all you want is play, but it certainly is not photography (and hey, my apologies if everyone is so aware of this already).

    I made a vow to a photographer friend I am keeping the K-5 for *five years* and once I decide my pocket camera, also for five years- whatever that is. It may very well be the one I already have - an LX5.

    In the name of simplification it even crossed my mind to sell my Pentax and get an E-5 and use my E-620 just because I have a full lens system now sitting there doing nothing for the most past (though I still fire up the 420/620 from time to time).

    A friend of mine (photographer) brought the final point home to me by linking to a photographer whose camera is simply a Nikon F2- for the last 25 years of his career. There's something to be said about *really knowing* and pushing through the limits of the camera you grow intimate with. Even stuff it's not designed for with the mind that even artifacts can work to create art. To do photography.

    (end of little rant mode).

    - Ricardo
    A spot on analysis, and I'm guilty myself. I could have gone on many nice trips or attended some excellent photo classes with money wasted on buying and selling the "newest and best". Have to overcome that excitement of opening a box with the newest toy inside, as it is only a very short lived joy. And once first love is over selling the now uninspiring stuff is a pain in the ., at least for me

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Ricardo, a timely post what with so many camera introductions awaited.

    I have given my D700 in to Nikon for repair. I thought long and hard about

    this issue when I was out of cameras recently. The D700 ( if it can be repaired

    economically ) is sufficient for my needs and prints. So is my M8.

    I thought about all the wonderful new cams..and I conducted a critical Q&A with myself.

    I don't really need anything else, first. Second, I do not have the funds.

    The wife's D-Lux4 broke down too! Not worth repairing. Shall get her a

    new small sensor cam. One that can take M-mount and Nikon lenses

    if possible!

    I know my photography shall not improve with a camera change..

    Thanks for that timely reminder once again.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    While nothing you say is wrong and you do say this, some people just like to explore new cameras and new tech and that is part of their fun.

    If that is what brings them enjoyment then I'm not one to throw stones at what they are doing (i'm extremely guilty). It may not make them a good or brilliant photographer but each of our motivations are different.

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    @A lot in general (little rant mode on)

    I am going to be very frank and before you shoot me, just think about what I am about to say. I think the whole train of "new camera, let's upgrade" is something that not only is very expensive, but has nothing to do with improving one's photography. I have been guilty of this myself, and I see a new camera means spending time just to get the new tool at an intuitive level.

    Sure, it can be a lot of fun to get a new toy and try to figure out the puzzle- how it behaves, what you think it can take, etc. But this has nothing to do with photography.

    On this site I have seen the following:

    - at least someone who has a perfectly fine FF A900 switch to other cameras (no obvious reason photographically speaking)
    - at least someone having the best of micro four thirds sensor wise (that's the GH2) only to get the x100 and also the latest pen (EP-3)
    - at least someone to get a pentax K-5, only to switch to other cameras. Having an A900 (!) and a (!!!!) Leica too.
    - immediate jump to an X10 as it is out now or about to be. No obvious reason.
    - lots of jump to get an X100.
    - at least someone getting an apparently perfectly fine for their needs E-5 even, expensive SHG glass if I have read correctly, mumbling a 2nd system or switch. (After having a K-5 and have been apparently happy with it).
    - lots of micro four thirds "jump to latest model" - cross brand (olympus-> Panny or Panny-> Olympus)

    Upgrade of models within months, not even a year. One has to ask: is this photography? And you know, fine if you got the time, cash and all you want is play, but it certainly is not photography (and hey, my apologies if everyone is so aware of this already).

    I made a vow to a photographer friend I am keeping the K-5 for *five years* and once I decide my pocket camera, also for five years- whatever that is. It may very well be the one I already have - an LX5.

    In the name of simplification it even crossed my mind to sell my Pentax and get an E-5 and use my E-620 just because I have a full lens system now sitting there doing nothing for the most past (though I still fire up the 420/620 from time to time).

    A friend of mine (photographer) brought the final point home to me by linking to a photographer whose camera is simply a Nikon F2- for the last 25 years of his career. There's something to be said about *really knowing* and pushing through the limits of the camera you grow intimate with. Even stuff it's not designed for with the mind that even artifacts can work to create art. To do photography.

    (end of little rant mode).

    - Ricardo

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Terry - I agree that people can get joy out of just buying tech and I believe I did mention it. The only thing perhaps I need to add is that I see a lot of people buying all this gear in the name of photography- which it is not.

    As a side thing, I do think it does bring the question if some people have becomes slaves to consumerism and get a very expensive short lived joy out of solving the puzzle and touching on other humans in the very limited way that buying something new like this can provide.

    As for stone throwing I didn't mean to be taken that way but that's in some ways what some artists do with critique. I still think its worth pointing out.

    The last two paragraphs is more about reflection, if someone has the cash, time and truly enjoys collecting, playing with the toys cool. But let's just not pretend we are doing photography.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    I fail to see what a person's attraction to cameras has to do with their ability to be a great photographer

    Keith

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by woodmancy View Post
    I fail to see what a person's attraction to cameras has to do with their ability to be a great photographer

    Keith
    On a first glance and ideal world nothing. In real world terms focus is lost and in particular I dare say looking around you can tell one thing doesn't seem to change while cameras do. Anyway using mean to go on, on this. But hat I an say is changing camera models particularly so fast does most likely screws up your photography. Tere was a famous film photographer that mentioned when he changed models and brands it took him about a year to really get the new model at an intuitive level. He changed about four times in his career.

    Speaking from experience, it took me longer than I thought to go to a Pentax k-5. We can say each individual has their own speeds but I do make the claim that change as fast as I have seen is most likely not good and I think there's evidence to support that. But I wot get into that. Just want to make sure I answer your question.


    In either case all this camera buying has zero to do with photography. And I agree it's fine if that's what floats the boat as long as finances are in order, but it's not photography and I have often seen it under the pretense it is.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hah - I just looked at the dpreview preview - Richard Butler is hardly Kai is he

    Still, I can see the point . . . but it would be as a riding camera, which is good to use one handed, which makes the manual zoom more of a disadvantage than an advantage . . . maybe I'll just stick to the NEX for now! . . . . . probably
    What is the preferred camera to use while playing polo?
    -bob

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    Re: Fuji X10

    >What is the preferred camera to use while playing polo?

    GoPro mounted to the horse :-)
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Who ever said that most peoples aspirations are to be a better photographer though ?

    Some think of "photography" as this stuffy art form, practiced by people who don't smile much, dress in all black, and carry around a portfolio of peeling paint and dead oak tree's, shot on film of course. Others think of it as pressing a button on their camera phone of their night on the town and uploading to facebook all evening long.

    Why does one have to be any more right than the other ?

    For that matter, why does one have to have a reason to buy a new camera ?

    Am a I better photographer if I own one camera than 10 ?

    Does a guy who upgrades every year deserve less respect than a guy still shooting an original Canon 1D for 9 years straight ?

    I own about 10 different guitars, because I like guitars, I like collecting lots of different styles of instruments from the 60's, 70's, 80's etc. I don't think that each guitar is going to be make a better musician, I just like playing different ones.

    Same with guns. I don't think I'm going to become some sort of crack shot, I just think it might be fun to get an old fashioned "cowboy action" style single action revolver.

    Do I think the X10 is going to further my advancement as a photographer ? Of course not, I just think it will be a fun camera to shoot when I want to travel light yet still have something with some control. I've actually got zero desire really to improve as a photographer, or an artist etc. I'm back in school working on a doctorate and hoping to one day leave this profession before it gets to the point where I can't keep roof over my head doing it (which I don't know if in 5 years is realistic for many of us)

    Another camera is just another camera. Not going to make me better, not going to make me worse. Not going to make my kids starve because I bought it, nor is it going to change my life other than having a new camera. Not going to inspire me to start wearing skinny jeans and dressing in black and shooting dead things.

    Just a reasonably compact, fairly affordable new toy for me to carry around when I don't want my DSLR' s and feel like a bit more control than my iPhone can give me.

    I just don't follow this type of reasoning or why some feel the need to try to force it upon others

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Who are you to judge for anyone else what is or isn't photography ?

    Why should it matter to anyone if you don't agree with what they call "photography" ?

    Do you walk down the street looking at people taking pictures and judge the ones doing "photography" for those who aren't ?

    Do you really feel that because you keep your camera for a longer time than most that its gives you a right or duty to judge others and force your own definitions upon others ?

    I mean man, I'm sure glad I didn't upgrade my D3 to a D3s, because while those guys who did are getting cleaner files in dark arena's than me, I can at least say I'm more of a photographer than they are lol

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post

    In either case all this camera buying has zero to do with photography. And I agree it's fine if that's what floats the boat as long as finances are in order, but it's not photography and I have often seen it under the pretense it is.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    You need to read more carefully what I wrote before writing what seems to me an emotionall knee jerk response. If you read again you will see I included myself in. I see something, I am pointing it out.

    Whether I feel entitled to point it out or not is for the same reason people point things out. Some do act as if they are focusing on photography but aren't.

    It seems you missed about 80% of my points but I'll agree with you perhaps people don't care about being better photographers (which has to do nothing about the concept of artsy photographer as you described it. )

    Anyway I am done with this. If you want to talk to me about it send me a pm an ill answer it.

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by woodmancy View Post
    I fail to see what a person's attraction to cameras has to do with their ability to be a great photographer

    Keith
    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    On a first glance and ideal world nothing. In real world terms focus is lost and in particular I dare say looking around you can tell one thing doesn't seem to change while cameras do. Anyway using mean to go on, on this. But hat I an say is changing camera models particularly so fast does most likely screws up your photography. Tere was a famous film photographer that mentioned when he changed models and brands it took him about a year to really get the new model at an intuitive level. He changed about four times in his career.

    Speaking from experience, it took me longer than I thought to go to a Pentax k-5. We can say each individual has their own speeds but I do make the claim that change as fast as I have seen is most likely not good and I think there's evidence to support that. But I wot get into that. Just want to make sure I answer your question.


    In either case all this camera buying has zero to do with photography. And I agree it's fine if that's what floats the boat as long as finances are in order, but it's not photography and I have often seen it under the pretense it is.
    I'm with Keith on this - - - - or perhaps a bit with both of you. I find that trying different cameras challenges one's preconceptions and also get's one out of 'ruts' of working. Looking back at new purchases I'm very aware that I often have a 'rush' of creativity with a new camera - with lots of good shots together, which rather flies in the face of your argument Ricardo . . . . Don't you think it depends on the person, the situation and the camera?

    Mind you - I also recognise that it takes some time to get used to a camera - it was pointed out to me by my wife that I spend hours in the kitchen, just snapping away - I wasn't even aware of it as 'practicing' I just do it.

    On the other hand Ricardo - when things are important I always go back to the M9 or the Sony - both of which are really second nature.

    It's silly to have an argument about such things - everybody is different, and one's photography speaks for itself. To assume that equipment has nothing to do with photography may be true for you - but it may not be true for others.

    With respect to small sensor cameras - I'm simply getting rid of mine (I have an XZ1 and an LX4 - I don't use them enough to be good at them or to like them. . . . . and the X10 won't be any different I'm sure.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    What is the preferred camera to use while playing polo?
    -bob
    Hah!
    I wish my riding was up to playing polo . . . . but the obvious answer is a video camera in the mallet (is that what it is?)

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Not too sure where to post this, but I've got mine. I managed to squeeze some tests out before I had to charge the battery.
    Initial thoughts, very positive. I had the Canon G9 and G10 and the X10 is a different league
    The viewfinder is big and bright and reminds you of some of the best film cameras of the past. Its easy to focus using the center of the finder, half press the button and recompose. In fact, that is what you do with a rangefinder camera, but here you don't worry about aligning the patches - much faster than my Epson RD-1. You can easily see the focus confirmation button when you look through the finder.
    EXR is only available in jpeg as far as I can see. My test images look good, but I haven't done any raw yet. Build and finish are top notch, about the same as my GXR.

    Keith

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    Re: Fuji X10

    Hmmm . . . . . I'm not too familiar with Silkypix, but it doesn't seem to want to recognize the X10 raw files. Has anyone else tried it?

    Keith

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    Re: Fuji X10

    >I'm not too familiar with Silkypix, but it doesn't seem to want to recognize the X10 raw files. Has anyone else tried it?

    Seems to work for me (recent version).
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
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