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Thread: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

  1. #51
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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    I find all this zipless and brutal criticism pretty distasteful myself. Nobody wants to release a faulty product, and one assumes that even if they do it on purpose in the final analysis, it's because they have no choice.
    +1

    Well put, Jono.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    That was supposed to be a tongue in cheek comment, Terry. Do I really have to be so PC in this banter amongst friends?
    Didn't read that way to me and it is one of the features I like best on the camera. Also, in terms of smaller sensor cameras, it is probably the least cramped for controls of many of the competitors (LX-5, S100, XZ-1). I love the controls on the left. I'm a lefty so finally something useful I can do with that hand. So to each his own.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hmmm - the reason that they can't test the crap out of it BEFORE rushing to market (at least in the case of the M8) is that they couldn't afford to - if you remember rightly they were on the brink of catastrophe. I've no idea who knew what, but I find the whole concept of 'whistle blowers' rather distasteful. The cracked sensor was definitely a QA production issue - hard to have anticipated.. . I guess that just saying this makes me an apologist!

    I don't believe things are worse than they were - in fact, I'm pretty sure they're much better - it's just that a few years ago problems like this really didn't come to light for ages - and even when they did, it was only to a select few. The internet has made these kind of issues immediately obvious to everyone.

    As consumers we DEMAND perfection at a sensible price - the competition is extreme, and I think we often get better than we deserve - which, generally speaking is pretty good.

    I find all this zipless and brutal criticism pretty distasteful myself. Nobody wants to release a faulty product, and one assumes that even if they do it on purpose in the final analysis, it's because they have no choice.

    It's quite simple really:

    If you don't want to be a beta tester - don't buy early

    Obviously, I'm really pleased that this information comes to light - the internet is a wonderful vehicle for it. But I'm afraid I live in a glass house, and throwing stones is against my principles. I'm amazed at everyone who seems to find it so easy.
    It's not necessarily throwing stones here as expectations are based on consumer and market experiences with other manufacturers' products and not on wishful thinking. E.g. Sony NEX series and Nikon N1 are recent products with no technical teething issues (which does not mean they are perfect, but that's a different discussion). It is interesting that some camera makers seem less "lucky" when it comes to release technically flawless products into the market place, Leica has been mentioned (M8, M9, X1) and Fuji (x100, x10). Both have to accept to be held to standards set by competition. That's all.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    Both have to accept to be held to standards set by competition. That's all.
    No they don't. You don't like the product, return it. I am with Jono here, for the money you spend, you can't expect perfection. We should count ourselves lucky that these manufactures take these risks to give us these products. And I don't understand this position where folks sound personally insulted--return the product if you don't like it.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    No they don't. You don't like the product, return it. I am with Jono here, for the money you spend, you can't expect perfection. We should count ourselves lucky that these manufactures take these risks to give us these products. And I don't understand this position where folks sound personally insulted--return the product if you don't like it.
    We obviously talk about two different things. I suggest you read my post again to try understanding before jumping.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Didn't read that way to me and it is one of the features I like best on the camera. Also, in terms of smaller sensor cameras, it is probably the least cramped for controls of many of the competitors (LX-5, S100, XZ-1). I love the controls on the left. I'm a lefty so finally something useful I can do with that hand. So to each his own.
    There was a devil smiley on the end of that paragraph ... usually meant to indicate an intentionally off-handed remark. Sorry if you've been offended.

    The X10 is a much larger camera (relative terms of course) than the S100 and XZ-1. I hate both of them for their controls anyway, trying them out in the store they warranted less then four minutes gander before I handed them back and said, "Eh? Not for me."

    Not having the review button on the left near my thumb is actually another irritation with the X10 for me (just like one of the things I dislike on the E-5 is having the MENU button on the left). It's an awkward hand motion for me to use it; with such a small camera as it is, having to operate something as simple as peeking at my photos with two hands seems ridiculous.

    Yes, to each his/her own.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    It's not necessarily throwing stones here
    Actually - if you look back through the thread - there are some pretty big stones being hefted about - I wish I was self confident enough about what I do to be able to blithely obliterate others.

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    It is interesting that some camera makers seem less "lucky" when it comes to release technically flawless products into the market place, Leica has been mentioned (M8, M9, X1) and Fuji (x100, x10). Both have to accept to be held to standards set by competition. That's all.
    Hmmm actually - I can see that there are real issues relating to the M8 and the x10.
    I think the cracked sensor issue on the M9 was one of those unavoidable QC problems of a late developing issue with a 3rd party component in a limited batch - everything is subject to that. The answer is to fix it - which they did.

    Was there a problem with the X1? (apart from people not liking it)
    Was there a problem with the X100? (apart from people not liking it)

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    We obviously talk about two different things. I suggest you read my post again to try understanding before jumping.
    So you were not saying one company has to accept the "standards" of another?

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hmmm - the reason that they can't test the crap out of it BEFORE rushing to market (at least in the case of the M8) is that they couldn't afford to - if you remember rightly they were on the brink of catastrophe. I've no idea who knew what, but I find the whole concept of 'whistle blowers' rather distasteful. The cracked sensor was definitely a QA production issue - hard to have anticipated.. . I guess that just saying this makes me an apologist!

    I don't believe things are worse than they were - in fact, I'm pretty sure they're much better - it's just that a few years ago problems like this really didn't come to light for ages - and even when they did, it was only to a select few. The internet has made these kind of issues immediately obvious to everyone.

    As consumers we DEMAND perfection at a sensible price - the competition is extreme, and I think we often get better than we deserve - which, generally speaking is pretty good.

    I find all this zipless and brutal criticism pretty distasteful myself. Nobody wants to release a faulty product, and one assumes that even if they do it on purpose in the final analysis, it's because they have no choice.

    It's quite simple really:

    If you don't want to be a beta tester - don't buy early

    Obviously, I'm really pleased that this information comes to light - the internet is a wonderful vehicle for it. But I'm afraid I live in a glass house, and throwing stones is against my principles. I'm amazed at everyone who seems to find it so easy.
    Jono, I think you are a politically correct enabler. You may think consumers should have bailed out Leica. That is your opinion, not mine. I've had a belly full of bailing out mega rich people and their companies.

    If Leica couldn't bring a M8 to market without the huge flaw because they couldn't afford to get it right fast enough, who's problem is that? Well, they made it the consumer's problem by prematurely releasing a product that did NOT meet reasonable expectations for a $6,000 camera body. Not a "demand for perfection at a reasonable price" ... reasonable expectations at a lofty price. Big difference.

    Your memory is also selective ... Leica initially denied the issue with legal-weasel responses ... not unlike Fuji's response on this issue.

    RE: Throwing big stones, whistle blowers, and all the terms you find distasteful ... as if consumers did not have the right to express their frustration because they are not worthy in the face of the mighty corporations who, out of the graciousness of their good will, bring us an ever increasing avalanche of gizmos to keep our feeble minds occupied.

    I personally don't care if you find "Whistle Blowers" a "distasteful" term ... if someone finds a HUGE flaw they should keep quiet about it? Let herds of other buyers buy without knowing? If the truth is "brutal" so what? It sure isn't going to get better by enabling errors to go unmentioned, or to use excuses and mealymouthed apologies on the behalf of some faceless corporation that has your money.

    Glass house? Hey, it's my money and their product. I have to live and die on the photos I make. I make a bad product for a client, and guess what ... I'm out of business. They don't make excuses for me, bail me out with hat in hand ... they fire me AND demand their money back. That keeps you on your toes and working to retain their trust and confidence.

    It's all an example of the new consumerism ... where an issue with a product becomes the consumer's problem, and the company hopes for complacency.

    Honestly, I'm sick of it ... others may not be, that's their choice ... but do not expect it to get better if everyone lets it slide, and bails out the multimillion dollar corporation by enabling less than expected performance for the money paid.

    And I sure as hell am not buying anything early anymore. I waited a year and a half before committing to the S2, over a year before upgrading my H4D (and tested the crap out of it before handing one penny to Hasselblad), and cancelled a NEX7 order.

    Trust is earned, not a right. If a company abuses that trust ... there should be a consequence. Brutal? Throwing stones? Maybe, but it wasn't me who broke the trust, it was them.

    -Marc

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Marc, you sound like modern camera are three legged ponies, which they are not.

    Cameras companies are not "mighty" corporations and populated by few millionaires. (And being a professional, I do not walk into a shoot with an unproven camera. Nor do I walk in with a Fuji X10. And I have a backup.)

    Actually, with my experience with these companies, at least the Japanese ones, they work really hard for their customers. And the customers keep wanting more and more for less and less. And these same customers will bail when the new hot model hits the streets.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Ok, this discussion is again verging too closely to the edge of name calling and brand disparagement for my tastes. I'll unsubscribe again in a moment.

    The Fuji X10 seems a great performing little camera. It has some small flaws, whether I keep it or not depends more on what I feel is important for me than on what it's . But I certainly don't feel that Fuji owes me anything if I find its small flaws are enough of a deterrent to its use that I no longer want to use it. If I keep it, it performs well enough that I don't care what its flaws are.

    I'd rather applaud Fuji for making such a nice small camera at such a reasonable price than take them to task for the couple of minor issues I see.

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    So you were not saying one company has to accept the "standards" of another?
    Semantics aren't the issue, flawed cameras are.

    The standards are "reasonable expectations" for decent performance. Those expectations on the part of consumers aren't some closely guarded secret. They have been in place for decades. Magenta black and blobs on the photos aren't anywhere in that set of reasonable standards on the part of most any photographer, not just ultra critical pixel peepers.

    Neither was it reasonable to expect the mirror to fall out of your 5D, or a $6,000 sports camera not be able to focus accurately, or the sensor to crack in the early M9s and S2s. However, I don't lump all flaws into one heap. The mirror and cracked sensor were production issues. What we do not know is what pressures led to a change in fundamental make up of components that are in millions of other cameras without the same flaws.

    There are quite a few of us here that can afford these disappointments, shrug it off and move on. There are a lot of people who can't.

    My assistant isn't rich, has a growing family and lives modestly. Buying a 5D was a huge decision for her, one she sacrificed and saved for. Second family portrait shoot she did the mirror fell out and jammed the camera. When I read about all the kind and magnanimous benefit of the doubt shown camera makers here ... I think of her ... not some folks that have a new camera every twenty seconds ... (including myself )

    Marc

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    Re: What do camera makers owe us when they get it wrong?

    This thread has drifted way off constructive dialog.
    I am closing it so folks can reset unwind and unload.*

    -bob

    * for those who remember the IBM 2400 LOL

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