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Thread: new Fuji X Pro1 camera

  1. #551
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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Yes, Jono, if you want a sexy looking camera there are other better options.

    Here is my 'Texas' Leica in front of the X-Pro1. I put them in that sequence for Jono. Well, it's not really a Texas Leica, as in a medium format Fuji, but it *is* a Leica and it's in Texas.


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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by TimWright View Post
    I just read his review and from what I have read so far I will be holding off buying. Hopefully Fuji can fix some things in a firmware update. Anyway at least until a dealer has them in stock and I can try one I will hold off.
    What is it in Sean's review that particularly puts you off?

    Remember Sean often writes his reviews as much for the manufacturers as he does for his subscribers! It often works too, Leica in particular listen to what he preaches and others will do what they can in firmware changes. Sean's review is a rolling story with many more details yet to unfold.

    The one thing that came out so far for me is that he considers the X100 a pretty neat and useful camera and that didn't quite come out when reading his X100 early reviews either!
    Cheers, Dave
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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    What is it in Sean's review that particularly puts you off?

    Remember Sean often writes his reviews as much for the manufacturers as he does for his subscribers! It often works too, Leica in particular listen to what he preaches and others will do what they can in firmware changes. Sean's review is a rolling story with many more details yet to unfold.

    The one thing that came out so far for me is that he considers the X100 a pretty neat and useful camera and that didn't quite come out when reading his X100 early reviews either!
    The small things he mentions in the article, mostly the focusing issues and the aperture blades that keep adjusting even in manual mode. I don't think i could use anything slower than the Nex7. I would have liked the autofocus to be on par with the Oly EP3.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Interesting AF demo of the XPro1 here: Fujifilm X-Pro1 Focus Test: Continous - YouTube

    Looks faster than I can Manually focus anything!
    Cheers, Dave
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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    backlit and/or high contrast stationary subjects even the Leica X1 could focus on them. People walking down the sidewalk of a crowded street in dull light would be a different matter.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    That test was done so people can get an idea of the speed.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    straight OOC

    I hope these full size images don't mess with people's browsers...



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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    That test was done so people can get an idea of the speed.
    I understand that but they picked ideal subject and lighting to do the test. Unfortunately when it comes down to really using it in other than ideal situations the focus speed is generally nowhere near as fast. I hope that I am proven wrong. Just saying I won't order one blind but will wait till I can try it out.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Well only if you think subdued kitchen lighting with a window with backlight is ideal. And with postcard-sized subjects 9 feet from the camera. I did the video. There is another one in the set with the same setting done at night. This is pretty typical AF speed in all the situations shot so far.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Jono wrote:

    I wish I could claim to be innocent of this terrible crime, but I fear that I can't.
    Is that the bailiffs at the door???

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    yes I just watched the video again and the lighting and subject are pretty ideal for testing autofocus Lots of fairly sharp edges and contrast to lock on. I could even focus my M9 quickly on any of that but taking it out on the street is entirely different. I would like to see some street shots of people who are moving to see what it can do. From all the reviews and posts from people who have camera the consensus is that the autofocus is "ok" but not as good as the Nex7 nor the Oly EP3. Manual focus is reported at being worse. They need to implement focus peaking if this is true.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Manual focus is no different than the micro 4/3 cameras...focus assist. Focus by wire is improved significantly over the x100. Far fewer turns from close focus to infinity. Focus peaking is not the magic unicorn. It won't work at all in some situations...and often you need magnification in addition to focus peaking for real accuracy. I know this from using a NEX 5 since 2010 and upgrading the firmware for peaking, last summer.

    The problem is, often what appears to be in focus (i.e., 'peaked') on the LCD will not be when enlarged to 100%. It similar to how many out of focus images will appear when reduced to a 3" size...they look sharp, and in focus.

    AF is fine. I have not used an EP3 or a NEX 7, but it is plenty fast for what I shoot. My typical camera is an M...no way can I focus an M nearly as fast or as accurately, especially in the low light as shown in the videos, which again, was hardly ideal...in fact, it was difficult to shoot with the OVF of the X-Pro1 in those conditions; instead I used the EVF which will brighten things considerably, or by using the LCD as seen in the videos.

    Personally I don't understand what the importance of AF is with street. Most people who shoot street, use Ms..and prefocus. The same thing can be done with the X-Pro1, in manual mode. I know that is what I would do. Generally one isn't shooting for bokeh at f/1.4. If you want to track someone moving towards you, get a DSLR, but that's not really street shooting.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    I have never tried the X100 but I have used M lenses on both the Oly EP3 and Nex7. I find the Nex7 works very well with M lenses and focus peaking. Not everyone who shoots street uses zone focusing and yes quite often wide apertures are used to isolate the subject. Thats where I would like the autofocus to work well. Say the 35mm at F2 grabbing a quick shot of a persons who is walking by you at a distance of 6 or 7 feet. Anyway one they show up in stores here I will try just that. I hope it does work well as it would be a great addition to using the M9.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Monza, thanks for posting images. Keep 'em coming please.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    For what it is worth, here is the light level for the AF test...



    Thanks Keith unfortunately the camera is now en route to its final destination...I will definitely miss it!

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Digisix great little light meter. I don't even remember how long I have had mine. The Fuji is gone already? Was really hoping to see some street test shots and your thoughts on how it performed.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    There will be more reports on Fuji X Forum as more cameras appear...there is at least one other person there who says he'll be doing some street shooting.

    This camera had a client deadline unfortunately, so it had to ship out.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Robert (I recognised your dog!) great shots over at X100 forum and a very nice forum by the way. Thanks also for blowing away many of the internet mis-information about the X Pro1 and the X100 too. Nothing like a practical demo.

    Too many people like to criticise without either trying a new camera or owning it!
    Cheers, Dave
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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Manual focus is no different than the micro 4/3 cameras...focus assist. Focus by wire is improved significantly over the x100. Far fewer turns from close focus to infinity. Focus peaking is not the magic unicorn. It won't work at all in some situations...and often you need magnification in addition to focus peaking for real accuracy. I know this from using a NEX 5 since 2010 and upgrading the firmware for peaking, last summer.

    The problem is, often what appears to be in focus (i.e., 'peaked') on the LCD will not be when enlarged to 100%. It similar to how many out of focus images will appear when reduced to a 3" size...they look sharp, and in focus.

    AF is fine. I have not used an EP3 or a NEX 7, but it is plenty fast for what I shoot. My typical camera is an M...no way can I focus an M nearly as fast or as accurately, especially in the low light as shown in the videos, which again, was hardly ideal...in fact, it was difficult to shoot with the OVF of the X-Pro1 in those conditions; instead I used the EVF which will brighten things considerably, or by using the LCD as seen in the videos.

    Personally I don't understand what the importance of AF is with street. Most people who shoot street, use Ms..and prefocus. The same thing can be done with the X-Pro1, in manual mode. I know that is what I would do. Generally one isn't shooting for bokeh at f/1.4. If you want to track someone moving towards you, get a DSLR, but that's not really street shooting.
    Excellent point on AF for street shooting. It all depends on your vision and technique. When I am on the street I want to capture the moment and see no evidence that the photographer affected the subject . Typically I view the scene without the camera viewfinder at all. I line up the back ground and identify where I want the subject in the frame . Then I either estimate and pre focus or I look for something at the desired distance and pre focus . Anticipate the moment...frame,check edges and shoot. If the subject is preoccupied ..I will focus again on the subject and try to get 3-4 more captures.

    If I get lucky and remain unnoticed I will change positions ,use the other camera lens combination ,get closer,lower,higher to change the viewpoint.

    The X100 can do much of this but isn t as effective a tool as the M9 . With the AF set to the rear button I can prefocus . If I need really close I focus on my foot.

    My PJ friends feel that the Nikon s ability to move the focus point and nail focus is better but less discrete .

    I don t expect the XPro 1 to be as fast as the M or the Nikon but I could use it for street with some practice . Shooting an M on the street without good RF technique is an exercise in futility as I expect the XPRO 1 will be without time to refine technique .

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    I went and tried an X100 today. A friend was picking up a like new M6 and decided to buy a limited X100 as well. Only got to try it in the store but the autofocus wasn't all that bad. The EVF isn't as good as the Nex or the Oly but usable. One thing I didn't like was the way the viewfinder froze when focus locked on, is the Pro the same as this. I decided to keep my name on the list. If the Pro is better than the X100 like Monza has said it would be quite usable for street work. One of the things I found was that most of the complaints about the focus are with the 60 macro. I don't know if that lens has a focus limiter or not but in full macro mode I don't think I have ever seen a macro be very fast.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Manual focus is no different than the micro 4/3 cameras...focus assist. Focus by wire is improved significantly over the x100. Far fewer turns from close focus to infinity. Focus peaking is not the magic unicorn. It won't work at all in some situations...and often you need magnification in addition to focus peaking for real accuracy. I know this from using a NEX 5 since 2010 and upgrading the firmware for peaking, last summer.
    Hi Robert
    I was teasing about the looks . . .but I think I need to pick you up on this one. What circumstances does focus peaking not work in?
    Beyond the fact that it requires a little practice at each aperture to understand what the peaking is showing you. (just like it does with a rangefinder).
    I've got rid of my NEX7 because the AF was slow, and I didn't really need it for using MF lenses - but if I had, I'd have stuck to it like glue - I used focus peaking on at least 10 different MF lenses in conditions varying from a dark kitchen to the peak of a snow covered mountain at 10,000 ft, and at no point did I find the focus peaking didn't work. It was best in poor light, where a wide open lens always seemed to catch a sparkle in an eye. I used it with a .95 noctilux and R lenses. Personally I think that zoom in focusing is an abomination for everything except studio shots on a tripod - but that's my opinion!

    Is manual focus useable in OVF mode? in all conditions? I'm interested because I thought that it absolutely wasn't in the X100.
    Is auto focus possible with small subjects in front of high contrast backgrounds - that was where the X100 (and the NEX7 come to that) fell down badly - nearly always focusing on the background - even if the focus patch appeared to completely cover the subject.

    I'm asking, because a month with the X100 proved to me that zone focusing was really the only way of getting 'accurate' focus - unless one was photographing large areas with dull backgrounds.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Yes, Jono, if you want a sexy looking camera there are other better options.

    Here is my 'Texas' Leica in front of the X-Pro1. I put them in that sequence for Jono. Well, it's not really a Texas Leica, as in a medium format Fuji, but it *is* a Leica and it's in Texas.

    Lovely Robert
    That sloppy shoulder . . . I rest my case

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    sloppy shoulder -

    Well I shoot a NEX 5 almost every day and use manual focus (Contax) lenses on it almost exclusively. Very rarely do I use the kit lens (the only AF NEX lens I own.)

    While focus peaking works as advertised, it's not particularly fast, and not always completely accurate. And in some situations, it doesn't work at all.

    1. in low contrast situations, sometimes nothing 'peaks.' In this case one must use the focus assist magnification.

    2. when looking at the LCD, it's fairly common to see the 'peaked' pixels and it can appear that the subject is in focus. When magnified, what appeared to be in perfect focus, isn't.

    This is similar to what can happen when one shoots a picture looking at a 3" LCD and everything appears to be in focus -- until you look at it on your computer monitor, enlarged.

    3. Most of the time, I use peaking as well as the focus assist. This works great for static subjects...but not so great for moving ones.

    Bear in mind, this is using a NEX 5, which means LCD, not EVF...I have not used the Sony EVF on a NEX 5n or the 7 or the A77. What is your hit rate using LCD vs EVF, or do you even use the LCD?

    Manual focus on the X-Pro1 in OVF mode, no. I would use the OVF in MF mode in situations that allow prefocusing/hyperfocal.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    For what it is worth, here is the light level for the AF test...



    Thanks Keith unfortunately the camera is now en route to its final destination...I will definitely miss it!
    What is this strange evil device? Does it tell time? Temperature? Moon Phases?

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Frankly, I'm a little surprised at all the complaining about the X100 AF. Sure, it's a far cry from my D7000 or D700, but I certainly don't find it unusable. It's worlds faster than my Hexar AF and Contax G2 ever were and I have tons of wonderful images from those cameras... not to mention focusing my 4x5...

    I know its not a cheap camera (I bought it used for 850), but the way I see it, its a $400 lens with a $250 camera and a $200 viewfinder. Costs about the same as a Hexar or Minilux back in the day--and I have no film expense. The OOC color is the best that I know of (not used a latest gen Olympus), the WB is good, exposure is fine.

    If they came out with an x100 with a 90mm f2 equiv at $1200, I'd order one tomorrow.

    I guess I just have low expectations.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    sloppy shoulder -

    Well I shoot a NEX 5 almost every day and use manual focus (Contax) lenses on it almost exclusively. Very rarely do I use the kit lens (the only AF NEX lens I own.)

    While focus peaking works as advertised, it's not particularly fast, and not always completely accurate. And in some situations, it doesn't work at all.

    1. in low contrast situations, sometimes nothing 'peaks.' In this case one must use the focus assist magnification.

    2. when looking at the LCD, it's fairly common to see the 'peaked' pixels and it can appear that the subject is in focus. When magnified, what appeared to be in perfect focus, isn't.

    This is similar to what can happen when one shoots a picture looking at a 3" LCD and everything appears to be in focus -- until you look at it on your computer monitor, enlarged.

    3. Most of the time, I use peaking as well as the focus assist. This works great for static subjects...but not so great for moving ones.

    Bear in mind, this is using a NEX 5, which means LCD, not EVF...I have not used the Sony EVF on a NEX 5n or the 7 or the A77. What is your hit rate using LCD vs EVF, or do you even use the LCD?

    Manual focus on the X-Pro1 in OVF mode, no. I would use the OVF in MF mode in situations that allow prefocusing/hyperfocal.
    HI Robert
    Now I understand - peaking on an LCD isn't enough - I've tried and it doesn't!
    using the EVF I've found no situations where it doesn't work - even in very low mixed lighting, somehow there's always a twinkle in a person's eye (which you would never see on an LCD).

    To be honest, I often find it's better in low light where there are very few sparkles - sometimes in good light the amount of sparkly edges is distracting.

    I think focus assist is ghastly - firstly because I can't compose properly with it, and secondly because things change too quickly (but that's just me).

    But it means that I really do rest my case - Focus peaking is (for me at least) the absolute answer to using 3rd party MF lenses on any kind of camera - but you do need an EVF, LCD alone is not enough.

    I shot a gig tonight with the Sony A77 for the first time, mostly with the SZ 135 f1.8, and mostly with MF and focus peaking - the AF was fine . . . just not as good. The EVF was wonderful however - white balance and exposure there in front of you. The keeper rate (technically at least) was much higher than I've ever got at a concert before.

    maybe you should try a 5n with an EVF and those nice Contax lenses!

    all the best

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    Robert (I recognised your dog!) great shots over at X100 forum and a very nice forum by the way. Thanks also for blowing away many of the internet mis-information about the X Pro1 and the X100 too. Nothing like a practical demo.

    Too many people like to criticise without either trying a new camera or owning it!
    Couldn't agree more!!!!!

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Pretty impressive results, compared to three full frame cameras:

    Hands on: Fuji X-Pro1 review | News | TechRadar

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    anyone have any idea when they are going to ship?
    Steven Kornreich
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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    USA, end of March

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Pretty impressive results, compared to three full frame cameras:

    Hands on: Fuji X-Pro1 review | News | TechRadar
    Lies, damned lies and statistics!
    I can't criticise or vouch for the 5DII or the Fuji, but I've owned both a D700 and an M9 for a couple of years, and those figures (which I'm sure are technically correct) really don't represent the respective image quality.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    I own none of those cams. But it can not be worse than the M9, really?

    Interestingly, Fuji's claims about the X Pro1 "beating" the Canon 5 Mk II appears to be only valid for the jpeg outputs!

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I own none of those cams. But it can not be worse than the M9, really?
    Well, the M9 files might be technically rubbish . . .but they're still the nicest ones I get (by a county mile) the concept of the D700 files being better (except at very high ISO) is simply laughable.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    The NEX-7 files are better than any because that is the one I use nowadays and actually use the cam for photography.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Lies, damned lies and statistics!
    I can't criticise or vouch for the 5DII or the Fuji, but I've owned both a D700 and an M9 for a couple of years, and those figures (which I'm sure are technically correct) really don't represent the respective image quality.
    Image quality is subjective and there was no mention of that. Those are just measurements of SNR and DR.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Image quality is subjective and there was no mention of that. Those are just measurements of SNR and DR.
    What else is important to a digital file?

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    What else is important to a digital file?
    The picture.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Cute but has nothing to do with the discussion.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I own none of those cams. But it can not be worse than the M9, really?

    Interestingly, Fuji's claims about the X Pro1 "beating" the Canon 5 Mk II appears to be only valid for the jpeg outputs!
    Was there a direct claim like this against a specific model, or was the quote actually Fuji vs. generic full frame?

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Cute but has nothing to do with the discussion.
    Really? Jono is saying the number don't say everything. I am say they indicate the sensor response. Many folks slam things like DxO Mark because to them it does not reflect their experience. They are reacting to the qualities of the image, not the sensor response. That seemed like a very related response to Jono's comment.

    It is not like Jono was talking about the weather and I responded that cows don't eat carrots.

    As far as technical qualities like DR and SNR being absolute measure of image quality, that would just be false. Perhaps they are important to you, but there are qualities other value like color and contrast. DR and SNR in and of themselves will not guarantee pleasing images--and that is what pictorial/creative photography is about.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post

    As far as technical qualities like DR and SNR being absolute measure of image quality, that would just be false. Perhaps they are important to you, but there are qualities other value like color and contrast. DR and SNR in and of themselves will not guarantee pleasing images--and that is what pictorial/creative photography is about.
    If you had taken a look at the link, you would know you are twisting things around and the X Pro 1 files are better than the others. DR and SNR are related so are the tonality and such.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Was there a direct claim like this against a specific model, or was the quote actually Fuji vs. generic full frame?
    Canon 5D Mk II from all the leaks and hype, yes.

    The link you gave with the comparisons, still makes the X Pro 1 look very good though.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If you had taken a look at the link, you would know you are twisting things around and the X Pro 1 files are better than the others. DR and SNR are related so are the tonality and such.
    Are you actually following the conversation? My comment is in relation to Jono's post where he does not trust the numbers. I believe he is looking at images taken with his cameras and liking the results, but not understanding the significance of the DR and SNR specs in relation to those images. It is very possible to have very nice images form cameras that do not have "the best" DR and SNR.

    I am not making general comments on the quality of the Fuji X-Pro1 images. In fact, I do not think I have stated any opinion of what I think of the X-Pro1 files at all.

    I am not the one twisting--you are reading things into my posts that are not there.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    You seem to be reading things which aren't there. Why would D700 files be "laughable" compared to M9? What does that got to do with image samples?

    I am sure there are folks that buy cameras from the test samples done by someone. That is a different matter of choice.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    OK let's not make it personal here...and don't let the temperature get too hot.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    You seem to be reading things which aren't there. Why would D700 files be "laughable" compared to M9? What does that got to do with image samples?
    Where did I say that?

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    If you follow what Jono has posted that is what he implies and even says it outright. I am sure he has his reasons for it from his experience.

    You jumping in to lecture about a picture is more important than numbers and such while the discussion is about a new camera and how it performs is misplaced.

    That is what I am pointing out.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Canon 5D Mk II from all the leaks and hype, yes.

    The link you gave with the comparisons, still makes the X Pro 1 look very good though.
    I don't remember Fuji employees making direct claims against the 5D Mk II.

    The technical data is indeed very impressive. Fuji clearly has some really talented engineering. Although all three of the full frame cameras have been out for a while, it's still pretty amazing that an APS sensor has caught and surpassed them in such a relatively short time.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If you follow what Jono has posted that is what he implies and even says it outright. I am sure he has his reasons for it from his experience.

    You jumping in to lecture about a picture is more important than numbers and such while the discussion is about a new camera and how it performs is misplaced.

    That is what I am pointing out.
    You are putting words into my mouth and not reading what I posted. The point of my comment is to say our subjective response to an image and its subjective quality does not invalidate the numbers. To say I like the images camera X produces and so the numbers are wrong is not a valid statement.

    Just as the idea that only the numbers gives valid information is also misplaced. If that were true, why the need not only for example pictures, but "good" example pictures?

    You are not going to take my position that both the numbers and perceived image quality are important and suggest that only one or the other is the valid perspective on judging a camera.

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    Re: new Fuji X Pro1 camera (formerly called "new camera")

    I see it is futile to have any discussion. You have a camera, right? Any pictures to show?

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