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Thread: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    UPS picked it up today.. here is a segment from my website describing why I finally made the decision to return it...

    Update: January 31, 2012 - I'm Returning My X10
    I really hate to do it but I must. Here's why.....


    In the last week I have taken a number of shots in which the X10 just did not render specular highlights properly. It was annoying enough to make me reconsider keeping this camera. I gave it a lot of thought and decided that I must be able to trust the camera I am using to render a scene properly. The X10, while capable in so many ways, falls short where the specular highlights are concerned.

    I communicated with the camera store from which I bought my X10 and explained the issues and the lack of a fix from Fuji. They agreed to give me a refund. So, the X10 is back in its original packaging and was picked up by UPS today to be returned. I'll hang on to the flash I bought as it may work on the X Pro 1 should I buy it. If not, I'll sell it online along with the lens hood and adapter.

    As you can see by the photos I have taken with the Fuji X10 it is capable of delivering some great photos but I have found myself in the awkward situation of owning a camera I cannot fully trust to render highlights properly, and that just does not work for me. I had hoped that Fuji would have a fix by now but that is not the case and so, it goes back for a refund.

    It is truly a shame that the X10 has this issue as otherwise it would be a truly great compact camera. Fuji clearly shot themselves in the foot with this one. The issue has been known for some time now and Fuji has made very little in the way of a response to the problem, much less a firmware update to lessen or eliminate the problem. Proper testing of the X10 should have caught the problem before the camera went into production. I have to assume the X10 was either not fully tested or that Fuji felt it was not that big an issue.
    Jim Radcliffe
    www.boxedlight.com

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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    That is unfortunate yet very understandable. Personally I think it's also a bit of a lesson for everyone to ask themselves "do I really need to buy that new shiny camera that just came out- and buy it not today, but yesterday, now, fast, - considering I already have so many good cameras?"

    Speaking for myself, it's something I have been thinking about a lot lately. I think my photography degrades initially and if the upgrades are constantly and fast enough, it peaks or gets a bit detrimental due to all the learning to do again and again to an intuitive level of how a tool would respond. Not to mention all the cash spent.

    Of course if I all I want is to play with toys, solve a puzzle and not really push my photography (assuming I have all the cash for it), then no problem, that's the way- but I want to focus on photography.

    I am thinking for me to truly break free of the want for a new model is realize, that yes, next year model *will be better* and no camera is perfect, meaning dealing with that I bought which I thought was so great and state of the art, instead of buying "super duper new with blue crystals next" just 6-12 months later.

    Right now the OMD is in my distant radar. If I do, I have to sell both my Q and K-5, and the only three reasons are mainly, so my 4/3rd lenses are put to use and milder reason, better AF than the K-5 and to use *ONE* camera for everything, since the OMD may be very small. But is this real or an excuse?. Or if even it was a tiny bit better as a whole package, is it really a good idea to do anyway? Just voicing out my own thoughts.

    Going back to the X10, hope Fuji realizes they need to work on this issue. Announcing a new camera with the issue (XS1) is probably not a good idea.


    - Raist

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    Senior Member Brian Mosley's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Thanks Jim,

    noone could accuse you of not giving the camera your best shot. This information can only help in the long run...

    Much appreciated

    Brian

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    There are mainly two reasons why new cameras suck:

    1. They are released to the market too late with too few revolutionary new features.

    2. They haven't been tested long enough before release and the photographers are paying to act as beta testers.

    Surprisingly often, both of the above apply, just read the forum at dpr

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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    So if one found themselves returning it as Jim did , but unlike Jim this was their only camera. What would you replace it with that comes closest to the X10?

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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    Surprisingly often, both of the above apply, just read the forum at dpr
    Yes, the Fuji forum on DPR is so totally out of control. I abandoned it some time ago. There is a small group of people there who spend 99% of their time in the forum doing nothing but fighting with others. I found the forum to be totally useless for anything but entertainment. One guy there has been banned 14 times and yet DPR keeps letting him return only to ban him again. There is no real moderation there and I would say that it is the worst forum I have ever encountered anywhere. Glad that is not the case here.
    Jim Radcliffe
    www.boxedlight.com

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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by pjmsj21 View Post
    So if one found themselves returning it as Jim did , but unlike Jim this was their only camera. What would you replace it with that comes closest to the X10?
    I don't have an answer for that question... but since I still have my D-Lux 4 and the GF1.. I will manage somehow.

    The X10 is an amazing little camera in so many ways but the speuclar highlight issue will eventually impact almost every owner of that camera. I truly enjoyed using it but no longer had enough confidence in it to keep it.

    For those who still have the X10 your best hope is that Fuji can address the issue with a frimware update.

    I actually bought the X10 to replace my D-Lux 4... glad I did not sell the DL4.
    Jim Radcliffe
    www.boxedlight.com

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    While I understad that the highlights issue was enough for you to return it, I must say that I only ran very seldom into that issue and on the positive side the X10 is such an amazing camera (tack sharp and lot of details also at higher ISO - assume that they use a very weak AA filter if at all), that I would really not consider to return it as it is.

    Also WRT highlights and OBS - I tried C1 Pro, which does an amazing job for the X10 Raw files, especially in these cases.

    I hope Fuji continues their path because this seems to be the right one!

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    Yes, the Fuji forum on DPR is so totally out of control. I abandoned it some time ago. There is a small group of people there who spend 99% of their time in the forum doing nothing but fighting with others. I found the forum to be totally useless for anything but entertainment. One guy there has been banned 14 times and yet DPR keeps letting him return only to ban him again. There is no real moderation there and I would say that it is the worst forum I have ever encountered anywhere. Glad that is not the case here.
    ++1

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    That is unfortunate yet very understandable. Personally I think it's also a bit of a lesson for everyone to ask themselves "do I really need to buy that new shiny camera that just came out- and buy it not today, but yesterday, now, fast, - considering I already have so many good cameras?"

    Speaking for myself, it's something I have been thinking about a lot lately. I think my photography degrades initially and if the upgrades are constantly and fast enough, it peaks or gets a bit detrimental due to all the learning to do again and again to an intuitive level of how a tool would respond. Not to mention all the cash spent.

    Of course if I all I want is to play with toys, solve a puzzle and not really push my photography (assuming I have all the cash for it), then no problem, that's the way- but I want to focus on photography.

    I am thinking for me to truly break free of the want for a new model is realize, that yes, next year model *will be better* and no camera is perfect, meaning dealing with that I bought which I thought was so great and state of the art, instead of buying "super duper new with blue crystals next" just 6-12 months later.

    Right now the OMD is in my distant radar. If I do, I have to sell both my Q and K-5, and the only three reasons are mainly, so my 4/3rd lenses are put to use and milder reason, better AF than the K-5 and to use *ONE* camera for everything, since the OMD may be very small. But is this real or an excuse?. Or if even it was a tiny bit better as a whole package, is it really a good idea to do anyway? Just voicing out my own thoughts.

    Going back to the X10, hope Fuji realizes they need to work on this issue. Announcing a new camera with the issue (XS1) is probably not a good idea.


    - Raist
    Yeah,but going down that path you stand pretty much still

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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by pjmsj21 View Post
    So if one found themselves returning it as Jim did , but unlike Jim this was their only camera. What would you replace it with that comes closest to the X10?
    I would look to see how good the new Canon G1X is when it comes out. A bit more expensive.

    The Olympus XZ1 is what I was using before the Fuji and that is a very good camera. It is due to be refreshed so there may be new news soon.

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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    The G1X does sound interesting on paper.. hope to see how it performs and may consider it. I was a longtime Canon user, 5D, 5D MKII and previous models. My only real complaint with Canon was the bulk of those DSLRs.. the IQ was always good and the L glass very good as well.

    I'm looking for a compact camera which will be used when I don't wish to carry my DSLR or MFT stuff around... something that will slip in a jacket pocket... and perform under all lighting situations.
    Jim Radcliffe
    www.boxedlight.com

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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    I keep wondering if I need similar. Also a long long time Canon shooter and had the original G1 and G9 (which I passed pretty quickly to my husband)--only small ones I ever had. I shoot mostly with MFT now and my G3 with 20 and/or 45 fit nicely into one of my Rickshaw Ipad bags which is what I carry most of the time, but a fixed lens small cam would be even better. I even looked at the x10 but didn't buy. I'm still thinking since I like a camera with me all the time. Then I wonder if its redundant---for me LOL.

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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    The best compact of the last 12 months I think is the XZ-1. I really enjoyed that camera an I think you will too. They're now around $350.
    Brad Husick

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Shooting the XZ1 myself and really like it - but I would not say it is close to the X10. Not WRT IQ, operations, menue etc.

    I would dare to say there is nothing close to the X10 - I mean this positive!

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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    The gearhead in a nutshell: "Yeah,but going down that path you stand pretty much still," i.e., if you keep using the same camera you're not growing.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    The gearhead in a nutshell: "Yeah,but going down that path you stand pretty much still," i.e., if you keep using the same camera you're not growing.
    +1

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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Shooting the XZ1 myself and really like it - but I would not say it is close to the X10. Not WRT IQ, operations, menue etc.

    I would dare to say there is nothing close to the X10 - I mean this positive!
    That is quite a statement. I would think that the Nikon J1 smokes the Fuji as far as IQ and performance is concerned.

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    ... I returned my X10 too but no regrets

    After the wild elation of several friends who bought one, I purchased one to evaluate it and made about 100 exposures. I never saw any of the specular highlight problems.

    What I did see what that I had little control of DoF in any mode due to the small sensor format, the raw files were difficult to process as well as the internal JPEG engine in my standard image processing tools, and that I wasn't all that enthused about the control ergonomics and menu layout. The optical viewfinder and manual zoom were very nice, and fit/finish was excellent. The image files didn't thrill me for some reason, they seemed to lack subtlety.

    I guess I'm simply not interested in small-sensor cameras like this. Too many compromises for what I want to do with my photography. To me, the Ricoh GXR is a far higher quality, far more versatile camera in every way. With a better control layout and more sensible menu setup as well. Even with the small-sensor zoom camera units (which puts it in a similar price bracket), it performs better for me; with the APS-C camera units, it is a miles better performer.

    The only thing it lacks compared to the X10 is the zooming optical viewfinder, which for some might be a significant issue but is not at issue for my use.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    That is quite a statement. I would think that the Nikon J1 smokes the Fuji as far as IQ and performance is concerned.
    You are actually right, the V1 (and I assume also J1) are pretty close to the X10 WRT IQ.

    Have the V1, like it, but WRT compactness, fast lens and versatility the X10 clearly wins IMHO.

    End of the day everyone has to decide separately what is more important - a small system like the Nikon 1 or a really compact flexible all in one concept.

    For me both are great performers.

    I also must say that I purchased the X10 as it is the cheapest way to check out the Fuji sensors and from the performance I see I am now very interested in the X Pro 1.

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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by pjmsj21 View Post
    So if one found themselves returning it as Jim did , but unlike Jim this was their only camera. What would you replace it with that comes closest to the X10?
    The X10 has its own special things but if it comes down to that, any of the built in lens super zooms - Oly XZ-1, Panny LX5. And the Samsung (forgot which model). Not really including Canon because of the slower lens it has but someone I guess could make the case for it.

    If you could make the jump from zoom to prime, then Pentax Q (wouldn't compare it with its zoom lens because it's slower).

    - Raist

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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    Yes, the Fuji forum on DPR is so totally out of control. I abandoned it some time ago. There is a small group of people there who spend 99% of their time in the forum doing nothing but fighting with others. I found the forum to be totally useless for anything but entertainment. One guy there has been banned 14 times and yet DPR keeps letting him return only to ban him again. There is no real moderation there and I would say that it is the worst forum I have ever encountered anywhere. Glad that is not the case here.
    The real sad story is that the Fuji forum about 6-7 years ago was one of the very best forums dpreview had. People even posted pictures with DSLR's of other brands and members even welcomed such posts. How things change! :-(

    - Raist

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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Yeah,but going down that path you stand pretty much still
    How? :-)

    - Raist

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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    The gearhead in a nutshell: "Yeah,but going down that path you stand pretty much still," i.e., if you keep using the same camera you're not growing.
    Just to be clear, as I read this, I think you meant this for someone who is a gearhead and not a photographer, is my interpretation correct? :-)

    - Raist

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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Radcliffe View Post
    The G1X does sound interesting on paper.. hope to see how it performs and may consider it. I was a longtime Canon user, 5D, 5D MKII and previous models. My only real complaint with Canon was the bulk of those DSLRs.. the IQ was always good and the L glass very good as well.

    I'm looking for a compact camera which will be used when I don't wish to carry my DSLR or MFT stuff around... something that will slip in a jacket pocket... and perform under all lighting situations.
    Perhaps there will be a X11 with all fixes?

    What about the other X1G errrr, sorry, isn't that GX1 (Panasonic GX1) with that Pancake zoom they offer?

    If only they had put a EVF ala the Nex7 on the GX1.

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    Senior Member Jim Radcliffe's Avatar
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Perhaps there will be a X11 with all fixes?

    What about the other X1G errrr, sorry, isn't that GX1 (Panasonic GX1) with that Pancake zoom they offer?

    If only they had put a EVF ala the Nex7 on the GX1.
    I have the GF1 and the GH2 as well as the 14mm, 20mm, 25mm, 14-45mm and 45-200mm. I had high hopes for the GX1 but the lack of a built in EVF put me off. The EVF I have for the GF1 is one of the worst I have ever seen but it does get used when the sun totally washes out the LCD.. I only use it in such cases. I think the GX1 missed the mark in that it lacks the built in EVF and the LCD is not articulated.. had those two things been part of the package I would have bought one.

    The X10, for a small sensor camera, really is impressive in many ways but it has to be able to handle specular highlights properly.. and for now, it does not.

    The X Pro 1 looks interesting but I'm not sure I want to invest in another system camera as my K5 really does perform well and I have a full set of primes and zooms for that camera. It's also weather-sealed and offers some nice features.

    I'm not looking for the perfect camera.. as that will never be found, but I am looking for a small, non-mini-DSLR form factor, camera that really performs. I would prefer a larger sensor than that in the X10 but so far I've not come across one that appeals to me. The NEX doesn't work for me.

    Leica is making some noise about an "affordable" Leica but if it is anything like their X1, I am not interested. The M9 (for me) requires way too much of an expenditure, so that is not an option. Can't justify spending $7K for a body and thousands of dollars on lenses. I love Leica but like most, can't afford their price tags.

    And so... I wait...
    Jim Radcliffe
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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    The GX1 with EVF and articulated lcd is the G3. I know people wanted a square box but of all the mirrorless cameras across all of the manufacturers, it is one of the best values and does that without much sacrifice on performance (IQ, etc.)

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    Re: Hated to do it.. but returned my X10

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    The GX1 with EVF and articulated lcd is the G3. I know people wanted a square box but of all the mirrorless cameras across all of the manufacturers, it is one of the best values and does that without much sacrifice on performance (IQ, etc.)
    Agreed, but although I very much like my G3 the lack of a proper grip hurts, especially with longer/heavier lenses. So bring on the GH3 ...
    Bart ...

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