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Thread: RPP supports XP1

  1. #1
    Super Duper
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    RPP supports XP1

    There is a new beta version of RPP that supports raw processing of XP1 files. Version is RPP 4.5.0 (1518).

    Sample image from raw XP1 file processed in RPP:

    Last edited by scho; 4th May 2012 at 12:50. Reason: add image
    Carl
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Carl - what do you see in the RAWs vs. the jpegs? Meaning is the there much left to eek out of the files?

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Carl - what do you see in the RAWs vs. the jpegs? Meaning is the there much left to eek out of the files?
    Terry,

    I don't really know yet as I'm still trying to get some decent processed raws. RPP is usually very neutral with default parameters and I'm not that skilled in using it to get output comparable to LR or C1 which I'm more familiar with. I want to eventually go back to a raw only workflow but that will have to wait for LR/C1 support.
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Here is a comparison of an OOC jpeg with a raw processed in RPP. Colors not right in either image. Guess I need to make a good profile once ACR is ready.

    OOC jpeg


    RPP raw


    Edit:

    Made custom ColorChecker icc profile in RPP and re-processed the raw file with this profile:

    Last edited by scho; 5th May 2012 at 18:40. Reason: add image
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    The link doesn't work and there is no mention on their website of support for the X-Pro1 or a beta version.

    Bill

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by fordfanjpn View Post
    The link doesn't work and there is no mention on their website of support for the X-Pro1 or a beta version.

    Bill
    Sorry Bill, I don't know what happened to that link above. Here is the link for the profile and a link for the most recent RPP beta with XP1 support. Use "as shot" for white balance in RPP. The profile goes in Library>Application Support>RPP>Profiles

    https://files.me.com/scho/y3c2an

    A new profile that might be a little better:
    https://files.me.com/scho/t9wrw1

    http://www.raw-photo-processor.com/R...4_1520Beta.zip
    Last edited by scho; 6th May 2012 at 20:57. Reason: add new profile
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    Senior Member fordfanjpn's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Thanks Carl. I downloaded the app and the profile and I'll give them a try today. Appreciate the help.

    Bill

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    I re-shot the ColorChecker target and made a new profile that seems to be better in terms of WB uniformity.

    New Profile
    Last edited by scho; 9th May 2012 at 06:31. Reason: new link
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    For those who want to make their own profile for RPP, here are some instructions that I gleaned awhile ago from an old thread at DPR (I think these were comments from Iliah Borg).


    Profile construction with RPP

    open a raw file containing the shot of a CC24 target.
    switch RPP to Raw RGB TIFF 16 bit mode
    set your preferred everyday tone mapping - film-like curve or any particular gamma
    un-check Zoom to fit, use Shift-drag to scroll if necessary
    set white balance from second grey patch N8 (location D2) by Cmd-drag followed by Cmd-R
    adjust exposure compensation so that the whitest patch N9.5 (location D1) reads about 250 in the green channel
    go to Window and choose Camera Profiling
    check both Enforce White and Enforce Black
    start selecting patches from the topmost row, A
    select the dark brown patch, Lighter-than-Dark Skin, location A1; avoid selecting shadowed or damaged areas of the patches, do not include patch framing
    move the selection to the next patch (you can just drag it), Darker-Than-Light Skin, location A2
    continue with the row, when finished drag the selection to Orange patch, location B1 (for normal target orientation it is found under the Lighter-than-Dark Skin patch)
    continue through the rows until you are done with the Black patch, N2, location D6
    click generate and save profile
    new profile will be available under Profiles in main RPP menu
    Carl
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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    If I can add, I would recommend due care while shooting the target; specific instruction are detailed in the RPP user manual, pg. 32 and 33.

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    If I can add, I would recommend due care while shooting the target; specific instruction are detailed in the RPP user manual, pg. 32 and 33.
    Yes, thanks Ario. I should have just referenced the manual for guidance.
    Carl
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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Thanks for the profile work Carl.

    I'm trying RPP today and am not getting getting good results at all. The output files have many aliases on edges and colour artefacts abound. I don't get that effect with the OOC JPEGs or developed with SilkyPix. I have selected VNG interpolation (only choice apart from half).

    I must be missing something, is it a limitation of a non donation?

    Any advice welcome.
    David Anderson

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Braeside View Post
    Thanks for the profile work Carl.

    I'm trying RPP today and am not getting getting good results at all. The output files have many aliases on edges and colour artefacts abound. I don't get that effect with the OOC JPEGs or developed with SilkyPix. I have selected VNG interpolation (only choice apart from half).

    I must be missing something, is it a limitation of a non donation?

    Any advice welcome.
    I'm not sure what is happening DAvid. I don't see any aliasing or artifacts at all. Are you using beta version (1520)? The regular download version from the website does not support the XP1.

    Some suggested settings for a start:

    White balance custom or as shot
    Color leave at default "Color"
    Curve type film like
    exposure use Auto
    Brightness 55
    Compressed exposure 0.3
    Gamma 2.2
    Contrast 1
    Black point 0.1
    Saturation 30
    Sharpness 0
    Local contrast 25
    Carl
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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Thanks Carl. I am running that version and have tried your suggestions.

    It may just be this particular picture that has fine detail on straight edges and distant lettering that is causing the colour aliasing and edge steps I am seeing. It was just a quick snapshot yesterday and is so awful I hesitate to post it, but will perhaps take some screen shots at 100% to show you what is happening. There is a small possibility the camera is faulty of course, but more likely operator error here!
    David Anderson

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Screen shot (100% view)
    Left OOC JPEG Right RPP developed

    Do you see the colour aliasing on the blinds in the window and the lettering on the notice? Also a general raggedness to edges.

    Further up this image is a flagpole and the edge is quite rough compared to the JPG or the developed RAW in SilkyPix.

    I know I am pixel peeping, but my GXR RAW files appear better than this at 100%.



    David Anderson

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Another shot, Left is RPP, Right JPG OOC. No sharpening in RPP.

    Again shown at 100%

    David Anderson

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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    I see a lot of green pixels emerging everywhere in the RPP developed shots.
    I'm going through all my X1 pics developed with RPP and so far I have not seen anything like that.
    Do you get it with a any particular lens only?

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Hi Ario, I only have the 35 at present so have nothing to compare it against. I do have an L mount adaptor coming so can try some Zeiss lenses then.

    It may just be the details in that particular photo, I know with the GXR I sometimes get bad aliases on certain photos.

    Here is a 100% crop of the squirrel, this time sharpened in RPP before export to TIFF. I think it looks fine. I'm probably being completely silly about all of this and really need to get outside to take some shots. Excuse is the weather and having a bad cold.

    35mm at F1.8


    I promise - no more squirrel shots.

    Edit: The odd strip at the bottom is my desktop pattern - should have cropped it better!
    David Anderson
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Looks like moire from the XP1 sensor (no AA filter). I see this occasionally in images with high frequency detail. Can you remove it in tiff files using C1 moire correction slider?
    Carl
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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    David, I do not think that sharpness is an issue but if you compare the two shots you will see that not only on the fur of the squirrel but also at the border of the small stones on the ground there is a lot of green emerging, sort of chromatic aberration.

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Haven't tried that yet Carl. I certainly have seen that sort of thing with my M8 and GXR cameras with sharp lenses and lots of detail, especially processed with Aperture they could look awful at 100% and sometimes even at normal sizes. C1 usually made a much better resulting file, and avoided odd coloured dots on specular highlights in water droplets etc.

    Thanks for you input, I will put it down to the much higher resolution files that RPP is capable of producing. If it wasn't for having extra headroom for exposure misses I would be very happy with using the fine JPGs out of the camera, they are really very nice.
    David Anderson

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Ario I will have a look at it in SilkyPix I too noticed what looked like CA in the OOF area. Perhaps the JPGs are corrected in camera for CA?
    David Anderson

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    This is Silkypix processed, no green now.

    David Anderson

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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Most of the lenses specifically designed for the new camera systems are capable to transmit to their system cameras the info required to correct in camera both distortion ad chromatic aberration and such information are also attached to the raw file, as metadata, usable by the raw developers (but not by all of them).
    I do not think the RPP is designed do such corrections.

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Braeside View Post
    This is Silkypix processed, no green now.

    Still I see the OOC JPG more correct than the Silkpix developed raw, specially in the background.

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Hello David, as raw-Support in RPP is still in Beta, you could provide Andrey this feedback (Support). The newest Beta is http://www.raw-photo-processor.com/R...4_1526Beta.zip
    Regards Johannes

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Thanks Johannes, I will do that, and thanks for the link to the beta.
    David Anderson

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Ario, thanks, it may be something to do with the in camera noise reduction that is making the JPG OOC look different to the Silkypix developed version.

    I'm not that bothered about it as hopefully this is going to be a temporary workflow until Aperture supports the camera. I can live with the JPGs for now with suitable adjustments to the in camera settings which I haven't played much with yet.

    I was really just experimenting to see how much detail is lost in the JPGs v the RAW conversions, when I noticed the aberrations and was curious. Its a severe case of new camera testing syndrome.
    David Anderson

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    I'm not sure what is happening DAvid. I don't see any aliasing or artifacts at all. Are you using beta version (1520)? The regular download version from the website does not support the XP1.

    Some suggested settings for a start:

    White balance custom or as shot
    Color leave at default "Color"
    Curve type film like
    exposure use Auto
    Brightness 55
    Compressed exposure 0.3
    Gamma 2.2
    Contrast 1
    Black point 0.1
    Saturation 30
    Sharpness 0
    Local contrast 25
    Carl......I have been using these settings pretty religiously with great success.

    Thank you.....AGAIN.

    The only settings now I play with a bit are Compressed Exp and BP. I finally deduced how to save them as a starting point, so I am good to go (for now...).


    R

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Jaggies are due to developing at 1/2 resolution.
    Use one of the other alternatives above that in the interpolation box.

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by archiM44 View Post
    Jaggies are due to developing at 1/2 resolution.
    Use one of the other alternatives above that in the interpolation box.
    Yes I was using VNG, and still got some jaggies.

    I got a reply from the author of RPP:

    These are interpolation artifacts from VNG. It's not the best way to interpolate in general, but it's the only one which I could make work for this sensor so far.
    They should not be visible in most of cases when you print or downsample for web, but sometimes can be a real problem.

    The sensor also produces rather strong aliasing which doesn't help at all and takes a lot of efforts to clean out. You can see price of such filtering in your Silkypix example - it lacks microdetails almost completely and looks rather plastic for my taste.
    The author was actually comparing OOC JPEG with RPP, not with Silkypix, but the principle is the same.
    Last edited by Braeside; 14th May 2012 at 00:32. Reason: clarification.
    David Anderson

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    I wonder if this is why Capture One Pro and Adobe are taking such a long time to develop their software in support of the XP1?

    C1Pro already support the new Nikon 800E which was offered for sale just after the XP1.
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Possibly Dave,

    For a laugh the other day I tried to open a .raf file from the XP-1 on my iPad using the PhotRaw app, which supports the other Fuji X cams. It did open the file, but it was a kind of monochrome image, most weird, the pixels were in the right places, but colours wrong as you might expect with the unique colour sensor pattern this new camera uses.

    I have reprocessed more photos with SilkyPix today and they look very good, much better than RPP at present. (No artefacts, yet can pull out a lot more detail than in the OOC JPGs).
    David Anderson

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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by dhsimmonds View Post
    I wonder if this is why Capture One Pro and Adobe are taking such a long time to develop their software in support of the XP1?

    C1Pro already support the new Nikon 800E which was offered for sale just after the XP1.
    Looking at the rather poor quality of the files developed with a "beta" version of ACR and published by DPR last week, this seems to be the case.
    Hopefully sooner or later they will find an acceptable compromise between avoiding artifacts and rendering fine details.

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Some interesting comments on the problems in working with this type of sensor by the author of PhotoRAW at his blog
    David Anderson
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Braeside View Post
    Some interesting comments on the problems in working with this type of sensor by the author of PhotoRAW at his blog
    Thanks for sharing. Frustrating for developers and users waiting for solutions. Fuji needs to get on top of this. They obvious know the tricks to demosaicing the output.

    But now I know I can have raw support on the iPad. Go figure.

    edit: hmmmm the iPad app does not really get very good reviews.

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    edit: hmmmm the iPad app does not really get very good reviews.
    You can try PhotoRaw Lite for free and decide for yourself........

    And you know where to find me

    Sandy

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Actually Terry, the iPad app is not too shabby IMO. I use it quite a bit with my GXR files and they do look great processed in it. Of course it isn't a racehorse by any means, but a lot better than nothing, and he seems faster than Aperture at supporting new cameras as well.

    Nice to see Sandy here too!
    Last edited by Braeside; 16th May 2012 at 08:40. Reason: Sayin' hi
    David Anderson

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    Sorry Bill, I don't know what happened to that link above. Here is the link for the profile and a link for the most recent RPP beta with XP1 support. Use "as shot" for white balance in RPP. The profile goes in Library>Application Support>RPP>Profiles

    https://files.me.com/scho/y3c2an

    A new profile that might be a little better:
    https://files.me.com/scho/t9wrw1

    http://www.raw-photo-processor.com/R...4_1520Beta.zip
    Carl

    I downloaded both RPP (latest) and your profile but I have no RPP folder in the Library/Applications Support folder. What am I doing wrong?

    Thanks

    Woody

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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Carl

    I downloaded both RPP (latest) and your profile but I have no RPP folder in the Library/Applications Support folder. What am I doing wrong?

    Thanks

    Woody
    You should look into the User's Library which if you use Lion is normally hidden:
    while you are in the Finder, hold down Option (Alt) and hit the “Go” menu in the menubar. As long as you are holding down the Option key, the Library will appear in the drop-down. Just select it and it will open up on your Library folder.
    Ario

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    I've used PhotoRAW for some time now. It is quite good at its job, but it is very slow operating. Which makes sense when you consider the hardware environment. Raw conversion processing is a very heavy consumer of memory and processor power, the iPad has limited RAM for any app to work with.

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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Braeside View Post
    Some interesting comments on the problems in working with this type of sensor by the author of PhotoRAW at his blog
    Sandy has expanded his analysis by adding samples of the same file developed with Dcraw and RPP:
    ChromaSoft: Demosaicing the Fuji X-Pro1 Part 2

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    Sandy has expanded his analysis by adding samples of the same file developed with Dcraw and RPP:
    ChromaSoft: Demosaicing the Fuji X-Pro1 Part 2
    Fascinating discussions about the algorithm development for the Fuji's sensor. Thanks for posting the links to these articles!

  44. #44
    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    There is now a part 3 of Sandy's article, very interesting but the conclusions are not very promising.
    Hopefully the SW engineers at Adobe and/or at Capture One my find out some magic solution.
    ChromaSoft: Demosaicing the Fuji X-Pro1 Part 3
    Ario
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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    RPP Developer has released a new beta version including a specific demosaicing algorithm (2/3) for X1-Pro files.
    http://www.raw-photo-processor.com/R...4_1546Beta.zip
    According to Andrey (RPP Developer) 2/3 is better than VNG. It gives smaller files, but they are cleaner and when scaled up with proper sharpening look better than VNG.
    Ario
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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    I tried the new beta with 2/3, it still looks bad on edges, with steps and false colour, and as you say the developed file is reduced in pixel dimensions.

    I have sent feedback to the RPP author.

    The other really annoying thing with RPP is the half res preview in the application, why can't you get a slower full scale preview I wonder? Hopefully the author can perhaps try some other algorithms for this sensor, as PhotoRaw has done apparently, though I have not been able to try it yet on my iPad, but will once it is released.
    Last edited by Braeside; 20th May 2012 at 05:59.
    David Anderson

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    There is now a part 3 of Sandy's article, very interesting but the conclusions are not very promising.
    Hopefully the SW engineers at Adobe and/or at Capture One my find out some magic solution.
    ChromaSoft: Demosaicing the Fuji X-Pro1 Part 3
    Fascinating. Thanks for posting the link.

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    Senior Member Braeside's Avatar
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    Its good to read about the actual nuts and bolts of the problems on Sandy's blog.
    David Anderson

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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    I'm trying Sandy's PhotoRaw app that now supports the XP1. Image quality of the processed raws look very good, but I need to find a better way of moving files around between camera, desktop, and iPhone (no iPad yet). I moved the raws to the iPhone with file sharing in iTunes on my desktop and after processing in PhotoRaw just saved jpegs and then emailed them back to my desktop. I couldn't get direct transfer to Photoshop working, but that may be a networking problems on my system. I uploaded an OOC jpeg and the PhotoRaw processed image to my DPR gallery and there is a full size image comparison in this thread.
    Carl
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    Re: RPP supports XP1

    You could try PhotoSync App which transfers wirelessly between iPhone/iPad/Mac.
    Also tried Sandy's PhotoRaw last night on iPad 3 and it did a good job, though pretty slow doing the initial conversion as expected. It is useful for the occasional Raw shot I may want to process on the iPad but wouldn't be part of my main workflow.

    Sandy, how about a Mac version of PhotoRaw? - You wouldn't have the same constraints in terms of speed and memory.
    David Anderson

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