The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Giving X-E3 a spin

raist3d

Well-known member
I am not that convinced for me personally, whether it is worth it. I am undecided. If you look at the different sensor sizes (see here), I sometimes think it is more marketing of the brands than meaningful differences...
Well as I said. High iso. On sensor sizes- 65% more surface area presents a notable difference. The question is whether it matches your neseds and wants.

Keep in mind you also have near one more stop full DR. Depends what you shoots how this matters.

- Ricardo
 

raist3d

Well-known member
A general question:

We all know that according to rumours there will be soon a XT2s with IBIS.

Would you buy now a XE3, if you think that a XE3s with IBIS will be coming within the next 12 months?
If I knew for certain I would think about holding maybe. But I don’t do purchasing decisions like that based on pure speculation. The xt2 is a bigger body. It will be harder to put ibis on an xe3 body.

And how convinced are you, that Fuji is able to offer in its first generation IBIS something which is similar good as Oly and Pana is offering already now?
Not much, but fuji has at least one stop advantage in iso. So you have to add that difference to their ineffectiveness. But again- I don’t make purchasing decisions on speculation

What I do know is that right now, today, the focusing of the xe3 is notably better than the penf. What I know also right now. Today is that the xe3 is a canera that responds much faster than the Penf with a notable much better UI/usability.

All cameras are good now. Only you can decide what you are willing to put up with and what matches. Ask yourself- don’t ask me!

Usability and response / and af was my deal breaker with penf.

- Ricardo
 

4711

Member
Unfortunately Fuji IBIS seems to become definitely mediocre implemented than current Olympus and Panasonic IBIS - it is rumoured to bei either OIS or IBIS, not both at the same time ....

https://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-x-t2s-rumor-ibis-ois-not-currently-work-together/
Everything else would be a suprise. It took Oly and Pana years to achieve the IBIS at that level.

"Usability and response / and af was my deal breaker with penf. "

I use currently the GX80. In all those points, i find the GX80 better than the XE3. Maybe PenF and GX80/85 are different in these areas.

The only thing I am missing with the GX80 is the focus joystick of the XE3. More dynamic range would be welcome as always, But the IQ of the GX80 is good enough for me to skip the XE3 at the moment and wait for a GX90/95 with better dynamic range and maybe an AF joystick :)
 
Last edited:

raist3d

Well-known member
Unfortunately Fuji IBIS seems to become definitely mediocre implemented than current Olympus and Panasonic IBIS - it is rumoured to bei either OIS or IBIS, not both at the same time ....

https://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-x-t2s-rumor-ibis-ois-not-currently-work-together/
You have to be kidding making conclusions like that based on rumors of *unreleased* products whose performance can totally change by the time they get to the market.

Moreover- Olympus does not use IBIS with lenses except for two of them, and their IBIS does as well as first gen Dual IS of Panasonic or better in some situations. I wouldn't reach those conclusions based on all the rumors and unreleased product state of it.

- Ricardo
 

raist3d

Well-known member
Everything else would be a suprise. It took Oly and Pana years to achieve the IBIS at that level.

"Usability and response / and af was my deal breaker with penf. "

I use currently the GX80. In all those points, i find the GX80 better than the XE3. Maybe PenF and GX80/85 are different in these areas.
I was talking about the PenF. Speaking for the GX85/GX80- that camera is very nice but doesn't have the iso nor the dynamic range nor the color sensitivity of the Fuji X-E3 sensor. Also the JPEG engine of Fuji is of course, much much better. Not saying the GX80 isn't nice because it is. My main issue with it would be, in a range of focal lengths I use a lot it's pretty much the same size of the Fuji, but the metering and DR are not at the same level.

The GX80 is def. very responsive, though the Fuji can still do better at AF because of its pdaf.

The only thing I am missing with the GX80 is the focus joystick of the XE3. More dynamic range would be welcome as always, But the IQ of the GX80 is good enough for me to skip the XE3 at the moment and wait for a GX90/95 with better dynamic range and maybe an AF joystick :)
The GX90 DR won't match the X-E3, but I sure expect Panasonic to make it be at PenF levels which to me while still not quite the X-E3, is a pretty nice bar/place to be.

I certainly like Panasonic's speed and UI, over Olympus, any day. But as I said, the X-E3 exists today, right now. The GX90 *may* exist when? We don't know.

- Ricardo
 

4711

Member
I was talking about the PenF....

- Ricardo
I looked up the comparison between PenF and GX80 at DXOmarks, before I bought the GX80. PenF is better at noise in high ISO, but at ISO up and incl. ISO800, you will not be able to see differences, except you make the same shot side by side with both and then start to pixelpeep in photoshop.

But I think we both would love to have the same thing. High ISO, DR and color sensitivity like a. D800 but in the size of a GM5.

I used to have the D800. Great camera, great image quality. But I soon realized, that I prefer to make the compromize in IQ than in size/weight. I tried so many different systems since then. Also Fuji (which is one of the most intersting systems out there).

As far as I can see with your images, night photography is the major part of your photography. I do think that in the long run, you will end up with fullframe, because this image quality is what you really need as far as I can judge. A Nikon Df with some older (=smaller) FFL will be only slightly bigger than a XE3, but will give you a significant better IQ and flexibility in your shooting

Look for postings of Ray Sachs at dpreview. He made that journey as well.

This is at least for me the option I have in my mind long term. Or a future Nikon fullframe mirrorless. But at the moment, the XE3 seems for me just a small step up from MFT ( I do not need often ISO higher than 800) and still a lot of compromize compared to fullframe.

Just my 2 cents...
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
You have to be kidding making conclusions like that based on rumors of *unreleased* products whose performance can totally change by the time they get to the market.

Moreover- Olympus does not use IBIS with lenses except for two of them, and their IBIS does as well as first gen Dual IS of Panasonic or better in some situations. I wouldn't reach those conclusions based on all the rumors and unreleased product state of it.

- Ricardo
Lucky you!
 

raist3d

Well-known member
I looked up the comparison between PenF and GX80 at DXOmarks, before I bought the GX80. PenF is better at noise in high ISO, but at ISO up and incl. ISO800, you will not be able to see differences, except you make the same shot side by side with both and then start to pixelpeep in photoshop.
Depends what you are doing. I find the Penf meters the scene with much better highlight roll off. Remember also that having the bigger snensor is effectively super sampling. But I sure also like te

But I think we both would love to have the same thing. High ISO, DR and color sensitivity like a. D800 but in the size of a GM5.

I used to have the D800. Great camera, great image quality. But I soon realized, that I prefer to make the compromize in IQ than in size/weight. I tried so many different systems since then. Also Fuji (which is one of the most intersting systems out there).
Same.

As far as I can see with your images, night photography is the major part of your photography.
.

Yes

I do think that in the long run, you will end up with fullframe, because this image quality is what you really need as far as I can judge. A Nikon Df with some older (=smaller) FFL will be only slightly bigger than a XE3, but will give you a significant better IQ and flexibility in your shooting
No, no full frame. Too big. The size over te xe3 are significant. Didn’t look back at Fuji until this smaller camera showed up as much as I have always liked what they are doing.

Look for postings of Ray Sachs at dpreview. He made that journey as well.
I think I can speak for myself. No. No gull frame. The only full frame I have considered is something like a Sony RX1.

This is at least for me the option I have in my mind long term. Or a future Nikon fullframe mirrorless. But at the moment, the XE3 seems for me just a small step up from MFT ( I do not need often ISO higher than 800) and still a lot of compromize compared to fullframe.

Just my 2 cents...
Well I am certainly not trying to convince anyone. I find te IQ if the Fuji xe3 better while still being small - but like I said- I love the penf files but hate it’s usability.

If Panasonic has come out with a gm7 or gx90 with the new 20mp sensor and no AA I would most likely have gone that way. They didn’t and now fuji has a small option with both camera and smaller primes and here I am- considering fuji again.
Great usability. Great AF. Great speed. And better IQ but that’s just frosting


- Ricardo
 

4711

Member
I think it boils down on how quick you want to have an improvement of your PenF.

Rumours say that both,Olly and Pana will announce new highend cameras within the next 4 weeks.

Also Nikon is expected to announce at least one of its new mirrorless system in 2018.

The whole industry was beaten by the earthquake and the damage of the Sony sensor factories. I expect bigger improvements with the new sensors of 2018 than we have seen over the last 3 years.

Especially with the main stream sensors for the mass market like 24 MP in APSC, 20/24 MP for MFT and 20 MP for 1 inch sensors.

Maybe it is worth it to wait a few weeks/ months until we know more. All Oly, Pana and Fuji sensors are old. Does it make sense now to spent the money in old sensors? At leat I try to say this each morning to myself...

The RX1 was also for me an option. But no viewfinder and sluggish AF were the dealbreakers. The new model is a lot better, but almost too many pixels. I do not need more than 24MP really. Also price is too high for me. For 1000.- I would have tried it :)

But is 35mm enough for you as a single and only FL?
 

raist3d

Well-known member
I think it boils down on how quick you want to have an improvement of your PenF.
The PenF has several issues. Some of them could be solved enough if Olympus decides to do so, that I would be overall happy enough with it, but i just don't see them doing them anytime soon.

Rumours say that both,Olly and Pana will announce new highend cameras within the next 4 weeks.
The battery of the new Pen does not suggest per dpreview several members de-composition, a followup to the PenF model yet, unfortunately.

I don't care about a Panasonic GX9. It will be a great camera, but too big for me.

Also Nikon is expected to announce at least one of its new mirrorless system in 2018.
Expected, when if, and all that. Fuji X-E3 is here *today*, right now, and does a lot of what I want.

The whole industry was beaten by the earthquake and the damage of the Sony sensor factories. I expect bigger improvements with the new sensors of 2018 than we have seen over the last 3 years.
I don't see that. The earthquake factory impact is about the assembly line. The Fuji X-E3 sensor and Sony A6300/A6500 (same base sensor) was a step forward with the copper interconnect.

Especially with the main stream sensors for the mass market like 24 MP in APSC, 20/24 MP for MFT and 20 MP for 1 inch sensors.
There's no 24 MP MFT sensor. Not yet. And given the top of the line GH5/EM1MKII using 20MP, I don't think we are going to see 24 MP MFT in a while. But personally I don't care, I am happy with the PenF's 20 MP.

Maybe it is worth it to wait a few weeks/ months until we know more. All Oly, Pana and Fuji sensors are old. Does it make sense now to spent the money in old sensors? At leat I try to say this each morning to myself...
Fuji's X-E3 sensor *is* not "old." Certainly not anywhere near as old as the 16 MP Oly/Pana are using, and not even as old as the PenF/GX8 20MP MFT sensor. The Fuji sensor is from 2016.

We can always wait wait and more wait. I don't make a lot of purchasing decisions here based on speculation/rumors like that. I waited for a GM7 that should have happened 1st quarter this year and it didn't- same with the GX80/GX85- didn't happen.

The RX1 was also for me an option. But no viewfinder and sluggish AF were the dealbreakers. The new model is a lot better, but almost too many pixels. I do not need more than 24MP really. Also price is too high for me. For 1000.- I would have tried it :)

But is 35mm enough for you as a single and only FL?
For the most part, no. If I had it as a 2nd camera to go around on the street big maybe. But yea, that's one of the reasons (combined with price) I don't have one.

- Ricardo
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I think the XE3 is a very good and valuable camera and will stay so for at least the next 2 years, before anything new from Fuji in that size can be expected. And this is good as for me the XE3 would tick almost all boxes for a small camera (system).

Having said that the next incarnation of Fuji XT2s (or maybe it will be called XT3) will be a significant step forward for the X-system - it will offer IBIS that suddenly stabilises all their primes that do not offer OIS and it will almost definitely offer an improved AF system again, where the current implementations in the XE3 and also the FW updates in the XT2 and XPro2 are already stellar.

I am shooting the EM1.2 with Only Pro lenses and while they have a very good AF system I must say that the Fuji AF is at least on par and maybe even better in some situations when you setup the AF in the right way for what you want to shoot. Also while the current 20MP of m43 is already very good I doubt we will see m43 sensors with 24MP within near future (maybe out 3-5 years) and then again Fuji will pretty sure already offer around 30MP.

So here you have it - take the system what appeals most to you today and forget about the other or choose to run 2 parallel systems, which I am currently doing. Brings lot of advantages as you always can choose the one that suits best (speed, compactness, IQ, etc.) but this also brings a number of headaches as you usually try then to keep both systems (cameras) updated to the best solution available - and that can become expensive.

Anyway this is what I am currently doing and I hope to find out soon if and when I will go with only one system for the future.
 

4711

Member
The PenF has several issues. Some of them could be solved enough if Olympus decides to do so, that I would be overall happy enough with it, but i just don't see them doing them anytime soon.

...

- Ricardo
What would you make differently, if you would design a PenF Mark II?

If you are looking for Fuji lenses, I can highly recommend the 35/2.0 WR and 50/2.0 WR. The 23/2.0 WR is not as good as the other two. Unfortunately Fuji does not offer a 56/2.0 WR. The 56/1.2 is excellent, but big and heavy. I never use it because of that.

The 35/1.4 is not as vood as the Zeiss Touit 32/1.8. The 23/1.4 is very good, but too big and heavy.

I was never impressed with the XF27. For telezooms the cheap XC50-230 is basically as good as the XF 55-200, but significantly smaller and lighter

The 10-24 is very good, but big. The 60 Macro too slow. The 18mm not good enough IMHO.
 
Last edited:

raist3d

Well-known member
What would you make differently, if you would design a PenF Mark II?
- Some PDAF points- perhaps not like the EM1 MK2 but all centered
- I will cut the color creator mode out. I think the JPEG profile colors cover that
- Would cut several features that dont' have much to do with photogrpaphy (I would have to come up with a list)
- Will make darn sure the camera UI responds in real time to user input
- Have a AF/AFC/MF lever. This is SO NEEDED on the PenF. I mean as far as not using buttons for other things that are in not so comfy positions to enact.
- Have the green squares go lit and move when doing AFC
- Have a clear AF marker that shows up, instead of the near invisible greyed out marks you can use on current PenF
- Eliminate the fully articulated LCD_ and leave it at tilt LCD
- Have a button that *always* brings up the super control panel
- Don't make super control panel / touch AF square mode mutually exclusive

Bunch of other stuff. It's amazing as I have used other cameras from other brands how many UI obstacles Olympus has put in, and how complex they have become.

If you are looking for Fuji lenses, I can highly recommend the 35/2.0 WR and 50/2.0 WR. The 23/2.0 WR is not as good as the other two. Unfortunately Fuji does not offer a 56/2.0 WR. The 56/1.2 is excellent, but big and heavy. I never use it because of that.
There's an XF50F2.0- I can live with that :) I tried it at the store actually, pretty good. And today I got my XF23 F2.0 WR. If you are saying this lens is not as good as the other two, then the others must be truly spectacular because so far I am pretty impressed with it (good news!).

The 35/1.4 is not as vood as the Zeiss Touit 32/1.8. The 23/1.4 is very good, but too big and heavy.
I have had the XF 35 F1.4 since forever, and I love it. I think it's magical.

I was never impressed with the XF27. For telezooms the cheap XC50-230 is basically as good as the XF 55-200, but significantly smaller and lighter
I find the XF27 great for making the camera fit in my pocket. It's ok. The XF23 F2.0 as I tried it is clearly showing me better micro contrast.

The 10-24 is very good, but big. The 60 Macro too slow. The 18mm not good enough IMHO.
I tried the 18 mm some time back. It's the "worse" of them probably but it's also far from the useless I was expecting. But since I just got the XF35 F2.0, I may not buy now. And I already have the XF27 when size is a priority.

thanks for the comments.

- Ricardo
 

raist3d

Well-known member
[del]
So here you have it - take the system what appeals most to you today and forget about the other or choose to run 2 parallel systems, which I am currently doing. Brings lot of advantages as you always can choose the one that suits best (speed, compactness, IQ, etc.) but this also brings a number of headaches as you usually try then to keep both systems (cameras) updated to the best solution available - and that can become expensive.

Anyway this is what I am currently doing and I hope to find out soon if and when I will go with only one system for the future.
I am trying to stick to one. I can't deny a GM7 with the 20 MP sensor would have had me in m43rds- I have the lenses I need and I like the telephoto smaller options of m43rds- though I know I am giving up a bit better ISO and color that Fuji has. Always about tradeoffs, but I would have made those.

But looks like the X-E3 is small enough and I would dare shoot weddings/paid events with it (not with a GM5 though), so that's good. And Panasonic is not doing a GM7.

And of course, I would have stuck with the PenF if it wasn't for the issues I find with it, because I really really love the files (RAW and JPEG). Best color/resolution/iso I have seen in all m43rds so far (I bet the EM1.2 is better overall though I saw the PenF incredibly holds color at high ISO better a bit).

On paper the PenF looks like a camera Olympus designed for me. In practice many glitches, speed issues, AF, etc. made me enter a complete love for a week/hate for a week relationship :)

- Ricardo
 

4711

Member
The XF35/1.4 is not as good in handling lens flare as the Zeiss Touit 32/1.8. I find the Zeiss gives also more "3D" effect in the images.

I used the 35/1.4 only for an hour while comparing it with my Zeiss Touit.

I sold the Zeiss for purchasing the XF35/2.0 WR. AF speed is better and IQ very good.

I basically love the small and light WR FFL. I have all three. But the 23/2.0 IMHo (at least my sample) is not as good as the other two.

With the introduction of the small WR primes, Fuji kept me in their system. Otherwise I would have sold it and kept Nikon fullframe and MFT side by side until future products enable me to downsize to only one system. Hopefully soon...

I normally prefer the XPro because of its OVF. But it is significantly bigger and the price of the Xpro2 is completely unrealistic compared with other DSLR or Panasonic products. So I kept my XPro1 and wait and see :)

Did you ever try a Ricoh GR? Lovely camera!
 

raist3d

Well-known member
Yes I did try a Ricoh GR for a bit. Indeed a fantastic camera and one of the very best cameras for street work. My issue is that I am not a wide angle photographer per se and while the crop modes help it takes away from the high iso performance.

- Ricardo
 
Top