Giving X-E3 a spin

[raist3d]

I am going to keep this short and in bullet form since it's late.

First a picture I took last night with continuous AF, XF27 F2.8. I suppose composition could be a tad better and the white car in the background next to the guy makes the picture a bit less than it could be, but I still like the action and tones.

Impressions

• X-E3 is *fast* (keep in mind I am not used to using an Xpro 2 or X-t2)
• Touch screen gestures work fine
• Lots of refinements over what used to be Fuji X-E1/X-T10, like highlights settings can now have more. You can pull back -2 EV when raw converting, etc.
• Camera starts up pretty darn fast (Panasonic GM5 is somewhat similar)
• Wish the mechanical shutter was even quieter, but it's quieter than X-T10/X-E1
• Love that you get feedback on C-AF with the little green squares showing what the camera is focusing on
• Love that the smallest single AF point is *very* small/precise
• Camera with one of the pancake lenses is definitively jacket or even big pocket pants pocketable
• You can "pump the shutter" - something the X-T10 , X-E1 couldn't do (I hear X-T2/Xpro 2 can also do this). The half press-> full press -> half press deal-> repeat deal.
• Love that there's a button of AFL and AEL separately
• Love "my menu" so you can put together a menu of options you use the most, and pressing the menu button by default shows it first.

Issue or two -

• Accidentally deleted my first batch of test shots by a quick select/confirm with the stick. Fuji- please patch this so that to delete all frames, you need to use the OK button. While this is not as easy to make of a mistake, the fact that in 24 hours of ownership I did it points to a usability potential issue. Good thing this was just a "test shots" batch.
• At night, electronic shutter can give you nasty banding coming shutter speeds of 1/160
• Wish grain simulation had a separate setting per film simulation you pick. I find myself turning it on/off depending if I am shooting B&W or color.
• I don't understand the whole Bluetooth / iOS App pairing deal (yet). The App still wants me to select WiFi connect. I must be missing something - this is not what I expected. Panasonic and Olympus iOS Apps to connect to their cameras continue to be more refined it seems.
• Seems like Face detection could be better in the feedback it gives you.

Coming from Panasonic GX850 (yes, that one)

For street life the Panasonic can do a mechanical shutter all the way to 1/500 that is a barely audible click on the streets. This is a huge advantage for this model for some of the shots I do. Beats PenF/X-E3 here.

The overall camera UI response of the X-E3 and this camera are similar

Coming from Olympus PenF

Olympus really did a kick @ss job with the exposure and files of the PenF, so the RAWS are good and the JPEGS is as close as I have seen in terms of quality m43rds get to Fuji. I get an initial sense that the PenF at high ISO in JPEG may do slightly better due to dealing better with the noise reduction, though converting from RAW changes some things.

Where the PenF falls bad vs the X-E3 is in

- usability / UI

- Auto focus (particularly continuous which on the PenF can be a bit of a joke sometimes)

- Overall camera speed/response - UI response, first file save on turn on, turning on, change modes/settings. I feel that the UI lags behind me and can't quite keep up. It's not dead slow, but it's just this little lag that is just annoying.

Coming from m43rds in general

A key advantage I see for m43rds is if you shoot with focal lengths above 80-90mm equivalent. The lenses on the Fuji side start to become notably bigger. Focals of 27-80 there are options that match or almost match m43rds sizewise of equivalent or better aperture light advantage.

PenF has IBIS, and it's great, but IBIS doesn't work in all situations like if you want to freeze street life movement.

This ended up being longer than I wanted. I am giving it a spin and see how it feels for my needs. I would have wished Panasonic to have made a "GM7" with the new PenF/GX8 20 MP m43rds sensor, but that looks like it's just not happening at this point.

- Ricardo

 

[ptomsu]

Ricardo,

first congratulations on this wonderful camera!

I myself was looking at it, as it so small and still keeps almost everything the XT2 offers. WRT AF and IQ it has exactly the same components as the XT2/XPor2 WRT sensor and processor and AF system, so there should not be any differences. What must be definitely better is the new firmware coming with the XE3, that is reported to gain a lot of speed, accuracy etc. These features will come in typical Fuji manner to the XT2 and the XPro2 later in November this year - cannot wait to try them out.

WRT system size - your observations are spot on that Fuji APSC is pretty small up to lenses of 80mm focal length - similar to m43 - but tended to get bigger than m43 counterparts above that focal length. Having said that I feel that there is still a big difference to FF and this came especially to my mind as I was testing a Nikon D850 with some of the latest and greatest Nikon glass - much, Much, MUCH bigger and heavier. Makes me reaffirm my observation that APSC mirrorless (especially Fuji) is kind of the sweet spot for now when it comes to IQ, speed, size and weight.

The one thing I am currently missing is IBIS, but that is rumoured to come with the XT2s that should be introduced soon. Cannot wait to test this out!

All the best and have fun with your XE3

Peter

 

[raist3d]

I'll be frank - I am not sure I will keep. It's not because it's bad- seems pretty good. But thinking about the system and the m43rds lenses I have for telephoto. But I really like the speed/usability over the PenF.

If a fast PenF or 20 MP GX850 was released today, would I have picked that over? Probably because of the lenses I have.

Lack of IBIS doesn't bother me much for the work I do.

- Ricardo

 

[raist3d]

I screwed up the exposure here. Had the XF35 at F1.4 but the shutter set to 1/250.
Still sort of works I think.

- Ricardo

 

[4711]

I screwed up the exposure here. Had the XF35 at F1.4 but the shutter set to 1/250.
Still sort of works I think.

- Ricardo

Since you own the PenF and GX850:

How is the viewfinder compared to the XE3 (refresh rate etc.) Which one do you like more?

Where do you see differences in image quality between the 20MP of the PenF and the 24MP of the XE3? Is High Iso really better with PenF, although it uses a smaller sensor? What about the GX850 vs. XE3?

What about AF differences for single point AF (no CAF) between Panasonic GX850 and XE3?

Thanks

 

[4711]

I am sure by the way that we will see at Photokina 2018 an improved Panasonic GX9 and probably also a GX95 with 20MP sensor.

 

[raist3d]

I am sure by the way that we will see at Photokina 2018 an improved Panasonic GX9 and probably also a GX95 with 20MP sensor.

How *sure* are you? Is this something you heard from a reliable source or just a guess? I am interested if you heard from a reliable source. I don't care for GX9 but care for GX95 or GX950.

thanks,

- Ricardo

 

[raist3d]

Since you own the PenF and GX850:

How is the viewfinder compared to the XE3 (refresh rate etc.) Which one do you like more?

Refresh rate of the fuji and lag are better. Maybe refresh rate is similar but not the lag. You can boost the EVF lag refresh on PenF but won't work on the B&W profile modes and it's still not as good as Fuji's (but not too bad).

Where do you see differences in image quality between the 20MP of the PenF and the 24MP of the XE3?

The Fuji is a bit better for having better DR overall in the end, but the PenF holds up remarkably well.

Is High Iso really better with PenF, although it uses a smaller sensor?

I would say the Fuji does well, it's just that it seems the JPEG engine of the PenF holds details a bit better in some areas of the shot. But at the highest ISO's you can see an advantage for the Fuji. I am sure something like RAW would def. favor the Fuji (and we dont' have to wait, we can see now with XT20 RAW files since it's the same).

What about the GX850 vs. XE3?

GX850 can do well, but there's a 16 MP -> 24 MP difference. DR is def better on Fuji.

What about AF differences for single point AF (no CAF) between Panasonic GX850 and XE3?

Thanks

Single point AF precision wise as far as feedback to the user goes, Panasonic has a unique thing going on here nobody else has. But you can make a small point on the Fuji and focus pretty accurately. You dont' get the pinpoint Panasonic auto-magnify though (but the Fuji focuses faster when in this precision small point).

- Ricardo

 

[raist3d]

- Ricardo

 

[raist3d]

Since you own the PenF and GX850:

Where do you see differences in image quality between the 20MP of the PenF and the 24MP of the XE3? Is High Iso really better with PenF, although it uses a smaller sensor? What about the GX850 vs. XE3?

Thanks

Update- well I was wrong. Just did a controlled comparison. Fuji XF35 F1.4 set to F2.0 and PenF with Olympus 25mm F1.8 set to F1.8 (so small aperture advantage for PenF).

ISO 12800, same subject. Fuji shot below resized to 20 MP, but doesn't matter, would still have been better.

For a static subject like this though, on this light conditions, I could put the ISO 4000 on the PenF though, but just comparing pure ISO situations, the X-E3 clearly does better.

As one would think. ;-)

It looks like the PenF keeps the color a bit better in some areas, but since it's a mess anyway...


- Ricardo

 

[4711]

Update- well I was wrong. Just did a controlled comparison. Fuji XF35 F1.4 set to F2.0 and PenF with Olympus 25mm F1.8 set to F1.8 (so small aperture advantage for PenF).

ISO 12800, same subject. Fuji shot below resized to 20 MP, but doesn't matter, would still have been better.

For a static subject like this though, on this light conditions, I could put the ISO 4000 on the PenF though, but just comparing pure ISO situations, the X-E3 clearly does better.

As one would think. ;-)

It looks like the PenF keeps the color a bit better in some areas, but since it's a mess anyway...


- Ricardo

While doing this high ISO test, did you make sure that both cameras have the same settings also for shutterspeed etc. Fuji is inflating normally the ISO numbers...

I would be mostly interested in ISO 800,1600,3200 and 6400. But SS and F number have be the same.

I do not have insider information regarding new products. But I do not believe, that this 16 MP sensor will be available in one year from now for Oly or Pana. It is the same game like with APSC sensors. You simply can not buy the 16 MP sensor anymore from Sony. They only offer 24 MP for APSC.

Except you make an individual order, which will be too expensive and MFT has not enough market share to justify that.

IMHO they just bought the last production run for the Oly OM 10 III to have a big margin and in 2018 every new midrange/highend MFT camera will have 20 MP.

 

[raist3d]

While doing this high ISO test, did you make sure that both cameras have the same settings also for shutterspeed etc. Fuji is inflating normally the ISO numbers...

Fuji isn't inflating the ISO numbers. That is a thing of the past if anything, and in the past Fuji was using still a standard to measure ISO.

That said, the exposure for Fuji is 1/60, F2.0 ISO 12800 and for the PenF is 1/60, F1.8, ISO 12800. If anything, the PenF is at a 1/3rd stop advantage here, but T_transmission of the lens could come into play (favoring the PenF lens here as it is at F1.8).

I would be mostly interested in ISO 800,1600,3200 and 6400. But SS and F number have be the same.

Not doing that. But I think the ISO 12800 test shows the Fuji advantage in general.

I do not have insider information regarding new products. But I do not believe, that this 16 MP sensor will be available in one year from now for Oly or Pana. It is the same game like with APSC sensors. You simply can not buy the 16 MP sensor anymore from Sony. They only offer 24 MP for APSC.

Well, they have continued to use this 16MP for long enough. I am not sure what will make it so that it's no longer available with certainty. So I am not sure. Moreover, my cocern is what Panasonic will do moving forward given their Camera division re-structuring and the GH5 success. Basically I am wondering what lower end lines they will keep doing- just like the GM series have come to an end due to sales and priorities.

So I wouldn't be that certain these models are coming up "for sure" until we see them. It's def. one of my concerns.

Except you make an individual order, which will be too expensive and MFT has not enough market share to justify that.

IMHO they just bought the last production run for the Oly OM 10 III to have a big margin and in 2018 every new midrange/highend MFT camera will have 20 MP.

I think both Panasonic and Olympus are quite overdue to stop using that sensor. The X-E3 exists today, right now- it's not an if or a maybe. The OMD 10 III just came out to market with that 16 MP...

- Ricardo

 

[ptomsu]

WRT m43 resolution - I think that it will unfortunately stay long time in the area around 20MP and below ....

This is one of the main reasons I am shooting Fuji XT2 with 24MP - kind of sweet spot IMHO.

 

[4711]

....

Not doing that. But I think the ISO 12800 test shows the Fuji advantage in general.

...

- Ricardo

My theory is, that the difference between the two will be a lot less in the ISO range ISO 800-3200.

There will be always differences. But is it worth it?

Regarding the future of the 16MP sensor. I do not think that Pana or Oly are deciding it. Sony is here the one with the power. They produce what they want to produce.

Sony is the biggest shareholder of Olympus. Can someone explain me, why the RX100 line has since a couple of years a 20MP 1 inch sensor and Sony APSC 24MP sensors, but Oly and Pany need really a long time to get a 20 MP sensor on the road?

Is Sony protecting its own products too much?

 

[ptomsu]

Is Sony protecting its own products too much?

I would think so! It should definitely be possible to build a backside illuminated 24-28 MP m43 sensor with reasonably good DR and a great number of high sensitivity PDAF points - BUT ....

 

[raist3d]

WRT m43 resolution - I think that it will unfortunately stay long time in the area around 20MP and below ....

This is one of the main reasons I am shooting Fuji XT2 with 24MP - kind of sweet spot IMHO.

20MP->24MP isn’t much of a difference. The real reason why I want the new 20MP over the old 16MP is because better tone/iso/dr perf per how Olympus characterized it in the PEnF. If they made a new 16MP with better iso/tones/dr I’ll be ok with that too. But they have kept using the old one.

- Ricardo

 

[raist3d]

My theory is, that the difference between the two will be a lot less in the ISO range ISO 800-3200.

There will be always differences. But is it worth it?

That’s up to each of us to answer according to our needs and wants. For me the penf with the new Olympus metering does pretty good. For high ISO I still lean fuji.

Only you can answer for your needs.

Regarding the future of the 16MP sensor. I do not think that Pana or Oly are deciding it. Sony is here the one with the power. They produce what they want to produce.

Sure but what basis do you have to say Sony is cutting that off? If Sony can make a well known part cheap and make cash on it I don’t see why they would cut it. Keep in mind Sony does m43 sensor types only for Panasonic and Olympus so those customers may have a say.

Sony is the biggest shareholder of Olympus. Can someone explain me, why the RX100 line has since a couple of years a 20MP 1 inch sensor and Sony APSC 24MP sensors, but Oly and Pany need really a long time to get a 20 MP sensor on the road?

Panasonic has had the 20mp sensor for years (gx8). The question is why not at the lower end. Price I guess.

Is Sony protecting its own products too much?

Doubt it. After all Panasonic has also made sensors.

 

[4711]

A general question:

We all know that according to rumours there will be soon a XT2s with IBIS.

Would you buy now a XE3, if you think that a XE3s with IBIS will be coming within the next 12 months?

And how convinced are you, that Fuji is able to offer in its first generation IBIS something which is similar good as Oly and Pana is offering already now?

 

[4711]

That’s up to each of us to answer according to our needs and wants. For me the penf with the new Olympus metering does pretty good. For high ISO I still lean fuji.

Only you can answer for your needs.

...

I am not that convinced for me personally, whether it is worth it. I am undecided. If you look at the different sensor sizes (see here), I sometimes think it is more marketing of the brands than meaningful differences...

 

[Norm N]

The X-E3 is a gem. For street shooting, it's the best camera i've ever used. I've been photographing with Fuji X series cameras since the XE1. The X-E3 is slightly smaller. As everyone knows by now, the back of the camera has been simplified by removing the four way controller. Doing this makes the camera very comfortable to hold with the slightly raised front grip. Your thumb rests nest to the AF Lock button, which is just slightly raised to keep the thumb in position. The buttons now have a slightly oblong shape and feel better in use than those on my X-E2. Best of all, it's very quick.

From the front it looks to me like a miniaturized Leica M10. ( i know it's heresy to say that.)

The photo below is one of the first six test shots taken with the camera. It's an in camera raw conversion post processed in lightroom, since LR doesn't yet support the X-E3.( 27mm lens)