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Thread: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    A larger sensor comes at a price.
    It always does.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Are you sure the difference is just about sensor size? What if that Sony had a vertical grip for additional batteries?
    For general photography the Sony is likely more capable but with that being said it won’t match the Fuji in pure IQ. The Sony will also likely have better battery life. If using the absolute best Sony lenses I’d assume that it would be a push in quality, price, and size.

    So everything comes down to the subjective needs of the end user. I wouldn’t mind either or both if money were no object. If I wanted to distinguish myself further I’d choose the medium format option. If focus and tracking were more important I’d choose a Sony body. Simple as that for me. Both are capable and either can probably do the job in the hands of a reasonably skilled end user... they’re both more specialized towards certain types of jobs though.
    Last edited by iiiNelson; 26th May 2019 at 18:53.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    So far I have not seen a Tilt Adapter for the GFX 100.
    That would be an essential accessory for me.
    It appears the FUJIFILMEVF-TL1 EVF Tilt Adapter Should do the trick. But can it support the increased resolution of the GFX 100 EVF? Time will tell ... .
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    For general photography the Sony is likely more capable but with that being said it wonít match the Fuji in pure IQ. The Sony will also likely have better battery life. If using the absolute best Sony lenses Iíd assume that it would be a push in quality, price, and size.

    So everything comes down to the subjective needs of the end user. I wouldnít mind either or both if money were no object. If I wanted to distinguish myself further Iíd choose the medium format option. If focus and tracking were more important Iíd choose a Sony body. Simple as that for me. Both are capable and either can probably do the job in the hands of a reasonably skilled end user... theyíre both more specialized towards certain types of jobs though.
    Tre thanks, I agree. I like using both, Fuji mMF and Sony FE.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    It appears the FUJIFILMEVF-TL1 EVF Tilt Adapter Should do the trick. But can it support the increased resolution of the GFX 100 EVF? Time will tell ... .
    I'm sure you'll know by the end of June ...

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    The limit to photography is the human visual system. What are the conditions that need to be met where a 100MP system become visually different form a 50MP or 24MP one? More pixels does not mean bigger prints, but simply higher-frequency detail, just as fine grain film has higher-frequency detail than coarse-grain film.

    I took kind of the same route as Louis. My first camera was an m4/3 Olympus E-P1. I was amazed at the quality of the prints I was getting from this 12MP camera. My 40MP Pentax 645D gives amazing results--I mostly make 40" prints and have gone larger and 40" prints are a breeze at 40MP. The Pentax is a bit of a beast, and while I have used it handheld, it mostly sits on a tripod (I learnt a lot about using tripods with that camera). After putting together a book with images taken with my Mamiya 6 medium-format film camera, I missed the spontaneity I had with that. I used it for documentary work with ISO 400 film, and while the image quality was great, it was not really competing with digital. Looking at a few cameras, I rather nervously bought an X Pro2 sight unseen after a lot of research. My criteria was if I could get good 40" prints from the images, it would stay. Needless to say, I am really pleased with the work I have been making from that system as well as the freedom in its handling.

    We seem to be moving in the seasoning-as-you-go problem. You keep adding a bit more seasoning to taste as you cook. You seem to be able to keep adding a bit more as you cook. Only when you come to serve, do you notice it is too much. While maximization seems to be the ideal, I have been thinking more about optimization. Yes, you can double your energy intake by doubling your food portions, but there is a downside. I have been thinking more about how I can achieve my goals by optimizing my systems. Yes, my Pentax has better image quality than my X Pro2 in absolute terms, but what about practical terms? Is it something a viewer would notice? Since I travel a great deal on foot in my work, how does physical exertion in carrying my equipment impact the final result? I have just added a Fuji XF10 to my bag and it has been a revelation.

    I totally get the appeal of this camera. There are even photographers that can take advantage of this (although they will need something bigger than a 42" printer). It is great Fuji is developing this tech. I am looking forward to seeing the works folks will get with this.
    I'm rarely printing anything at all so I can't comment or rather shouldn't comment, but there's truth in your words.
    The 42MP from my A7r2 and 51MP from my 50s are already over the top and exceeding by far my capabilities.
    In fact I shouldn't bother with any advanced photography equipment and use my smart phone instead ...
    Still, I'm hoping Fuji will further develop and improve their 50's range.
    Frankly, for me the GFX100 is overkill and way beyond my financial means.
    But I'm open for any future serious cashback action or Xmas deal ...
    Bart ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    I have the tilt adapter but have found that using my Peak loupe and the LCD screen is as good an option without the added weight and bulk. That combination works best when the EVF is completely removed which creates some other issues when shooting in direct bright light.

    Victor

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Not owning the 50S I am confused about why the tilt adapter might not support 100MP images considering one would be using the new EVF that comes with the 100MP camera. Doesn't the tilt adapter simply connect the EVF with camera body while allowing tilt? Does it have additional functions?

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Not owning the 50S I am confused about why the tilt adapter might not support 100MP images...
    Because they are very heavy!

    I think you are right. The adapter should be fine.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    I love the tilt adapter on the 50S. It is probably my favourite feature after the IQ of the camera.

    It brings me back to my favourite way of holding a camera, which is at or near waist level.

    You can also use it in portrait mode as well as landscape which is a useful feature.

    When I shoot with my X-T3, I really miss the tilt/swivel and end up using the screen but unfortunately in bright sunlight it is not optimal.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I love the tilt adapter on the 50S. It is probably my favourite feature after the IQ of the camera.

    It brings me back to my favourite way of holding a camera, which is at or near waist level.

    You can also use it in portrait mode as well as landscape which is a useful feature.

    When I shoot with my X-T3, I really miss the tilt/swivel and end up using the screen but unfortunately in bright sunlight it is not optimal.

    LouisB
    +1
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    What are people’s thoughts on the possibility of Fuji releasing GFX 50R/S Mk II’s, with 50MP sensors, but upgraded specs to include many of the features (IBIS, improved EVF, 4K video, PDAF, etc) found in the 100.

    It makes sense to me that they strengthen their hand in the $5-6k range.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    It's said the GFX100 IBIS implementation is too large for the current 50s/r bodies.
    So Fuji have to work on a smaller IBIS unit (or very unlikely enlarge the 50's bodies), but I guess it will take them some time to develop.
    Still, I'm hoping for a 50s Mk-II.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    What are people’s thoughts on the possibility of Fuji releasing GFX 50R/S Mk II’s, with 50MP sensors, but upgraded specs to include many of the features (IBIS, improved EVF, 4K video, PDAF, etc) found in the 100.

    It makes sense to me that they strengthen their hand in the $5-6k range.
    I was not aware that a 50MP 33x44 sensor was available with PDAF, not to mention BSI.
    Last edited by algrove; 30th May 2019 at 10:21.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    What are peopleís thoughts on the possibility of Fuji releasing GFX 50R/S Mk IIís, with 50MP sensors, but upgraded specs to include many of the features (IBIS, improved EVF, 4K video, PDAF, etc) found in the 100.

    It makes sense to me that they strengthen their hand in the $5-6k range.
    I think the larger questions is if Sony is still producing 51mp sensors. Iíd love to see this because I think 100mp is a bit larger than I want right now.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I was not aware that a 50MP 33x44 sensor was availble with PDAF, not to mention BSI.
    Forgive me if I wasnít clear.

    I didnít intend to imply the Mk IIís would use the same sensors as the original 50S/R.

    It would just surprise me if Fuji were to abandon the $5k MF price point.

    Thereís a market there for MF at $5k - this they have proved in abundance with the success of their original cameras. It makes perfect sense, to me, to serve that market with improved offerings.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I was not aware that a 50MP 33x44 sensor was availble with PDAF, not to mention BSI.
    Lou, that is not in the 50S.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Lou, that is not in the 50S.
    Well H-K then for now IMHO the $5k price point cannot hold if a new sensor is forthcoming.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Most Compelling Reason to Step Up from Full Frame ...

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Capture One 12.0.4 already supporting GFX100

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Forgive me if I wasnít clear.

    I didnít intend to imply the Mk IIís would use the same sensors as the original 50S/R.

    It would just surprise me if Fuji were to abandon the $5k MF price point.

    Thereís a market there for MF at $5k - this they have proved in abundance with the success of their original cameras. It makes perfect sense, to me, to serve that market with improved offerings.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
    i believe if Sony made an updated version of the sensor in the 50S with the improvements of the 100 Iíd be allnover it I think. PDAF and IBIS arenít a small improvement... neither are 16-bit color or 4K video.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    I don’t know when it became a thing to underexposed by 4+ stops, try to recover, and then complain about performance but I hope it stops soon. The advantages of having PDAF and actually exposing close to accurately far outweigh the potential negatives of random occasional banding. Worst case make it a B&W shot... problem solved.

    I believe once processors can catch up to the data being processed then CDAF systems like DFD will have an advantage... or at least won’t be at a disadvantage but we aren’t there yet to be honest. Not a big deal in single point AF-S modes but it can be if/when you want to quickly track something in action and/or video. It’s pretty evident when side by side with a camera that has PDAF with one that does not.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I donít know when it became a thing to underexposed by 4+ stops, try to recover, and then complain about performance but I hope it stops soon. The advantages of having PDAF and actually exposing close to accurately far outweigh the potential negatives of random occasional banding. Worst case make it a B&W shot... problem solved.
    People have to find something to worry about.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    People have to find something to worry about.
    Yeah, I guess so. It's ridiculous to some extent but if you go on Facebook photo groups it's become one of the first tests that people perform to "show dynamic range" when really that has more to do with how much more advanced software algorithm processes have become in retaining details.

    Well looks like I'll be holding off on my "holy grail" purchases a bit longer until the right camera comes along. The irony is that my newest camera is now over 4 years old and nothing has pushed me far enough in advancements for me to add it. Considered the A9 more than a few times, considered Fuji and Panasonic systems... still sitting on what I own and making it work for me.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I donít know when it became a thing to underexposed by 4+ stops, try to recover, and then complain about performance but I hope it stops soon. The advantages of having PDAF and actually exposing close to accurately far outweigh the potential negatives of random occasional banding. Worst case make it a B&W shot... problem solved.

    I believe once processors can catch up to the data being processed then CDAF systems like DFD will have an advantage... or at least wonít be at a disadvantage but we arenít there yet to be honest. Not a big deal in single point AF-S modes but it can be if/when you want to quickly track something in action and/or video. Itís pretty evident when side by side with a camera that has PDAF with one that does not.
    Unfortunately, this is a consequence of the ridiculously high technical quality of images produced by current cameras. It was easier with film; problems were real. With digital, they have to be invented.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    I am really getting tired of the complaints about banding in underexposed images. The idiots doing this or testing this should not call themselves photographers anymore! Period! And even better stop posting their B...S... on youtube and other social media! I am really done with these useless complaints!

    On the topic itself, in normal operation with normal over and under exposure there is NO problem at all and I prefer PDAF always above CDAF. I do hope camera manufacturers bring mostly PDAF solutions in the future. The issues with CDAF in all AF modes are still very prominent in also the latest cameras from Panasonic and will (can) not go away, even with most advanced firmware.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I am really getting tired of the complaints about banding in underexposed images. The idiots doing this or testing this should not call themselves photographers anymore! Period! And even better stop posting their B...S... on youtube and other social media! I am really done with these useless complaints!

    On the topic itself, in normal operation with normal over and under exposure there is NO problem at all and I prefer PDAF always above CDAF. I do hope camera manufacturers bring mostly PDAF solutions in the future. The issues with CDAF in all AF modes are still very prominent in also the latest cameras from Panasonic and will (can) not go away, even with most advanced firmware.
    I actually see this from websites too. The irony is that most YouTube reviews that I've seen (even from people like the Northrup's) point out that the banding is highly unlikely to be an issue in standard usage. Now if there are issues where it can appear in normal usage then that's one thing but since everyone is a "tester" not they feel obliged to create this content frankly because some people request it... and a part of me gets wanting to know "the left and right limits" of the sensor performance. There are times where I've had to recover images from a stop or two within frequently changing lighting conditions of like say a concert or wedding reception... but those are more the exceptions. If I were branding myself to be a videographer, natural light shooter, or studio shooter... rarely does any of that matter in a controlled lighting situation.

    So regarding CDAF/DFD... I think it'll eventually get there but we are probably 2-5 years away from it not having any real compromises compared to PDAF. Processors just need to get better in speed and reaction. The other half of that is how much better that the Sony cameras, Blackmagic Cameras, Canon/Nikon, Fuji, etc. will get in that same time period. Sony is rumored to have an A9II in the works Nikon is rumored to be working on a "mirrorless D5" for the Olympics and Canon is rumored to be doing the same.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I actually see this from websites too. The irony is that most YouTube reviews that I've seen (even from people like the Northrup's) point out that the banding is highly unlikely to be an issue in standard usage. Now if there are issues where it can appear in normal usage then that's one thing but since everyone is a "tester" not they feel obliged to create this content frankly because some people request it... and a part of me gets wanting to know "the left and right limits" of the sensor performance. There are times where I've had to recover images from a stop or two within frequently changing lighting conditions of like say a concert or wedding reception... but those are more the exceptions. If I were branding myself to be a videographer, natural light shooter, or studio shooter... rarely does any of that matter in a controlled lighting situation.

    So regarding CDAF/DFD... I think it'll eventually get there but we are probably 2-5 years away from it not having any real compromises compared to PDAF. Processors just need to get better in speed and reaction. The other half of that is how much better that the Sony cameras, Blackmagic Cameras, Canon/Nikon, Fuji, etc. will get in that same time period. Sony is rumored to have an A9II in the works Nikon is rumored to be working on a "mirrorless D5" for the Olympics and Canon is rumored to be doing the same.
    This is exactly what I mean - if you are doing right exposure with "normal" over or under exposure you should be fine - even with the most mediocre PDAF integrations on todays's sensors.

    WRT PDAF vs. CDAF - I think there will be always the gap even if systems improve - but finally both will get to a perfection where differences become so small that it is almost negelctable in daily usage. And maybe yes, we are just 2 - 4 years away from that point in time.

    I am looking very interested towards the A9II and the Nikon Z(D5) coming out later this year or next year - definitely before the Olympics in 2020. I hope Nikon will catch up with Sony WRT AF and also native lens selection. I am VERY interested in the Nikon Z system as it seems more and more to become what I want/need/ask for and that could finish my search for the perfect camera for me. It definitely is not APSC and definitely is not MFD - but rather FF.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Here's an example of where sinificantly lifting the shadows was needed.

    We had a beautiful evening here the other day and the moon just rose beautifully inbetween the trees and our neighbours house.
    I exposed for the moon and at first blush the entire image, except for the moon, was pitch black.
    However with +3.5 EV, +100 shadows and a significant lift of the lower part of the curve i reproduced how I experienced the scene.
    So there are practical circumstances that exposure protecting the highlights gives significantly underexposed shadows.

    Two remarks:
    -1- The shadows show mild banding and noise, but I really don't care, it's not the greatest shot anyway and it preserves the memory I had from this beautiful evening in a very acceptable manner
    -2- If I wanted a technical better foreground I should have gotten out my tripod and made two exposures (one for the moon, the other for the sky and foreground) and blended them into one picture later. But I was too busy enjoying the beautiful moonrise that I didn't care to do that. Sometimes I find it better to take it all in rather than miss the scene because I'm bogged down in chasing a better technical end-result.

    So my bottom line point is that having some data on banding and noise when lifting the shadows can be useful to know, ETTR of very high DR scenes can give very underexposed shadows, but for me it's not an issue to choose between camera A and B.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by pegelli View Post
    So my bottom line point is that having some data on banding and noise when lifting the shadows can be useful to know, ETTR of very high DR scenes can give very underexposed shadows, but for me it's not an issue to choose between camera A and B.
    But for me it is rather an issue if AF and AFC is inferior when I choose between camera A or B On top of that all these "specialist" reviews on youtube cannot replicate what I really want from a camera - at least this is what I find meanwhile consistently. I guess most reviewers trim their reviews to the needs and desires of the big mass - which I obviously am not part of - or maybe no longer am part of

    On the end of my complaints about reviewers I should mention that I absolutely love what Fuji did with the GFX100 and I applaud them for taking this absolute leadership role. At least they convinced me if I am not going Nikon or Panasonic FF to go Fuji with their X system and later add some of their MFD cameras - maybe a GFX100 in some years as soon as the price comes down when the GFX200 arrives

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    But for me it is rather an issue if AF and AFC is inferior when I choose between camera A or B
    For me that's also not too important, for most of my shooting even MF works well so AF capabilities also have not been a deciding factor.

    I just started with a brand (Konica Minolta at the time, later taken over by Sony) and just stayed with it, slowly upgrading as lower cost 2nd hand models became available from people who exchanged these for the "latest and greatest". So far that strategy served me well, but I understand different people have different needs.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    But for me it is rather an issue if AF and AFC is inferior when I choose between camera A or B On top of that all these "specialist" reviews on youtube cannot replicate what I really want from a camera - at least this is what I find meanwhile consistently. I guess most reviewers trim their reviews to the needs and desires of the big mass - which I obviously am not part of - or maybe no longer am part of

    On the end of my complaints about reviewers I should mention that I absolutely love what Fuji did with the GFX100 and I applaud them for taking this absolute leadership role. At least they convinced me if I am not going Nikon or Panasonic FF to go Fuji with their X system and later add some of their MFD cameras - maybe a GFX100 in some years as soon as the price comes down when the GFX200 arrives
    I think if continuous AF is the most important factor then go A9 or wait on the next generation pro cameras from everyone else. Pretty much everything else is going to be something of a compromise as it applies to the best AF performance. Now if that level of AF performance isnít necessary then pretty much any camera will work for most people... when it comes to photography. When you throw video in the mix then itís a bit more complicated.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    On doctor's advice: Sitting on a fence for a extended period of time while denying G.A.S. is not good for your well-being: makes you grumpy ...


    Bart ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I think if continuous AF is the most important factor then go A9 or wait on the next generation pro cameras from everyone else. Pretty much everything else is going to be something of a compromise as it applies to the best AF performance. Now if that level of AF performance isnít necessary then pretty much any camera will work for most people... when it comes to photography. When you throw video in the mix then itís a bit more complicated.
    Thanks Tre for your confidence in the Sony A9!
    Second to none for the subject areas it was built for!
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    On doctor's advice: Sitting on a fence for a extended period of time while denying G.A.S. is not good for your well-being: makes you grumpy ...


    Assume you mean as one might say in the USA---S--t or get off the Pot!
    Last edited by algrove; 3 Weeks Ago at 04:22.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Been reading the 50 HB threads and I now remember Fuji displayed some prototypes and one was a square camera which reminded me of the old HB SWC and other square like designs.

    It sure would be interesting to see Fuji release a 100MP sensor in a square format say 33x33 which would approximate 80MP. If it had a flip LCD and a clip on EVF like the 100MP that would even be better and an additional way to gain economies of scale with the 100MP sensor.

    Anyone heard anything about the square body they showed a few months ago at a PR event?

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Anyone heard anything about the square body they showed a few months ago at a PR event?
    It was one of several prototypes.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Tre for your confidence in the Sony A9!
    Second to none for the subject areas it was built for!
    Kinda hard to ignore the performance. Iím awaiting what comes from the next versions. Iím hoping they find a way to increase the DR, add a faster mechanical shutter, maybe throw in their ďVenice Color ScienceĒ across the board since some seem happy with it for SOOC jpeg, and Iím still hoping for a slightly bigger body (about XH1 sized) since theyíre releasing all of them long telephoto lenses. If we get that then Iíd probably buy a couple to replace my A7RII, A7R, and A7.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Bart ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Bart ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Thanks Bart. Thatís good, no?
    We should see more feedback and reviews now.
    My 50S is working so well, I donít mind ordering the GFX100 a bit later.
    After the initial rush, hopefully any surprise issues are resolved by then.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Bart. Thatís good, no?
    We should see more feedback and reviews now.
    My 50S is working so well, I donít mind ordering the GFX100 a bit later.
    After the initial rush, hopefully any surprise issues are resolved by then.
    And whatís more: the price may drop ...
    Bart ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Bart ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Game, Set and Match ...
    Finally, they got it in focus. But for a benchmark based on resolution, why would you be surprised that the 100MP camera beats the 50MP camera? Seems sort of obvious.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    FWIW of course, but still - it can't be that bad, can it ?
    Bart ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Looks fantastic. Looking at the comparisons, I would still give the Phase One IQ180 the nod in terms of color...but without seeing the scene it is hard to tell which is more accurate. But the Phase has a bit more saturation and apparent nuance in color. Still, I would take the Fuji over it for my use...a trichromatic or 150mp back...well, all else being equal I will take the Phase. Of course, they are not equal, which is what makes Fuji so interesting.
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