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Thread: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

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    Cool The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    We'll see about that ...



    ... on the 23rd of May.

    Bart ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    We'll see about that ...



    ... on the 23rd of May.

    Iím keeping my eye on this development because I could very well see myself adding a GFX camera depending on the announcement.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    I wonder if Phase One now regrets supporting Fuji in Capture One.
    Phil
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotoism View Post
    I wonder if Phase One now regrets supporting Fuji in Capture One.
    Probably not... those are software sales they wouldnít otherwise have. Few can justify the price of the crop sensor MF cameras and an XF kit is reasonably out of the question for most... In any case it was a great decision on their part to support the Fuji system.

    In other news... https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/ful...-gfx100-specs/
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Probably not... those are software sales they wouldn’t otherwise have.
    There are just so many Phase One users and the growth in new users has to be small. I suspect a lot of their sales of new backs is upgrades. If they wanted to grow software sales, they had to open up Capture One to Fuji. And they probably got some money from Fuji for doing so. I don't think closing out Hasselblad gains them much either.
    Last edited by faberryman; 4 Days Ago at 15:21.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    There are just so many Phase One users and the growth in new users has to be small. I suspect a lot of their sales of new backs is upgrades. If they wanted to grow software sales, they had to open up Capture One to Fuji. And they probably go some money from Fuji for doing so. I don't think closing out Hasselblad gains them much either.
    True but the bigger gain is fully supporting Fuji to include the film simulations... Adobe isnít doing themselves any favors either with attempting a switcheroo.

    I believe the reality is that Phase One users typically only cross shop with Hasselblad H in medium format but may buy into a Mirrorless MF as a backup. Fuji is probably undercutting Leica, Hasselblad X, Pentax, entry level cropped sensor Phase One Cameras, and people that are otherwise interested in high megapixel 35mm system with larger budgets.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Thanks for the link guys - will be interesting to see and read reports on the camera -I'm particularly keen to get an idea how well the IBIS works.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    Adobe isnít doing themselves any favors either with attempting a switcheroo.
    Switcheroo?

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by faberryman View Post
    Switcheroo?
    Yeah hiding the $10 Photography plan behind a set of menus in favor of showing the $20 plan on the main page.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    I'm excited about it and looking forward to see how it pans out

    Not sure I'll ever pick one up or not, but Fuji definitely has my attention. I've been looking forward to 100mp digital medium format at cheaper-than-P1 prices for a long time now, and they have a variety of lenses well suited to my needs with some pretty aggressive price discounts.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Here we go ...

    Bart ...

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Here we go ...

    How long are you going to hold out Bart? -
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Looks pretty impressive. It would be interesting if they could find a way to eventually bring 4K60 through firmware... actually that would put it even more in unprecedented territory if it could.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    The GFX100 is a very impressive camera and such a huge achievement for photography and videography made possible by Fujifilm.

    A really great and innovative company. Who would have believed that 10 years ago?

    I probably will never own such a camera but I applaud Fujifilm for that achievement
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Well I am switching to a an R and one of these as my combo - maybe I will keep the Xt-3 for happy snaps...
    my Leica stuff is starting to feel really unloved - for good reason.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    How long are you going to hold out Bart? -
    At least till the first cashback action or Xmas deal which ever comes first ...
    Bart ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Bart ...

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    but then the really important question (to deadly people, like me) will be, when will the minor used GFX50S & R's drop to under half price, then...
    but then the lenses will stay attracted at high level
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Review by Jonas Rask: At the brink of tomorrow
    Bart ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Impressive machine, but I'm very happy that I don't need one. And while the X-T3, the X-H1 and the X-Pro2 are really beautiful cameras, this one looks like somthing designed during the Soviet Union brutalist era. The welders at our workshop would have made something like this.

    Oh well... for now, it's the bst camera ever, no doubt about that. It's a Fuji

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorkil View Post
    but then the really important question (to deadly people, like me) will be, when will the minor used GFX50S & R's drop to under half price, then...
    but then the lenses will stay attracted at high level
    Keep that thought and the hopes up. We can always go an adapter and some lower cost MF or other lens.
    I see some 35mm lenses still manage the image circle ok.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Impressive machine, but I'm very happy that I don't need one. And while the X-T3, the X-H1 and the X-Pro2 are really beautiful cameras, this one looks like somthing designed during the Soviet Union brutalist era. The welders at our workshop would have made something like this.

    Oh well... for now, it's the bst camera ever, no doubt about that. It's a Fuji
    It certainly isn't a 'looker', but that's not what matters, right ?
    It's the ergonomics that puzzles me. Still I like its 'simple uncluttered' design.
    Admittedly, the E-M1X seems sexier ...
    But hey, isn't that GFX100 a real machine ?

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    Bart ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    It is indeed not a ‘looker’, by far the ugliest sister in the family. I thought the top and bottom section had prototype status but it seems that they’ve put it into production like that. The button position, especially during vertical use, is not that great either. They should have looked outside their company borders, to Olympus as in my opinion Olympus did everything right with the E-M1X in this regard.

    Apart from this, what a technological marvel and such a great achievement by Fuji, well done!

    Regards,
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Keep that thought and the hopes up. We can always go an adapter and some lower cost MF or other lens.
    I see some 35mm lenses still manage the image circle ok.
    Yes, but I would only "need" a 23mm lens, to replace my SWC, and I would be happy for ever (the dreams are always the sweetest thing, and when the new camera arrives, it just in a peculiar way, just and only take pictures like all the others (and suddenly we are back in reality, no witchcraft, no lifesaver - when do we ever learn?...)
    Apart from that the 100 is just such a huge brick, certainly not a walk-around-camera, and I doubt that the fine pictures we see from the GFX50 here and there will be better by the 100, perhaps at a wallpaper at 3 meters length (9 feet 10 inch) - yes I know I'm just a sour old man...
    And sometimes I just wonder, should I just have stayed satisfied by my Nikon Df and X-T3?, while they certainly are more than good enough (but still the Z7 is the perfect walk-around-camera, perfect to use out there, perfect to use under hasty circumstances, perfect in the communication with my brain that dont need further investigations every time a picture has to be taken, but..less might have done it too, the X-T3 & the Df..perhaps)(but a SWC-replacement?...hhmmm)

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Impressive machine, but I'm very happy that I don't need one. And while the X-T3, the X-H1 and the X-Pro2 are really beautiful cameras, this one looks like somthing designed during the Soviet Union brutalist era. The welders at our workshop would have made something like this.

    Oh well... for now, it's the bst camera ever, no doubt about that. It's a Fuji
    Indeed I am also very happy that I don't need one! And indeed it is not a sexy camera at all!

    In times where I cannot make up my mind if I would add 24MP or 47MP FF mirrorless to my arsenal, anything above 50MP is just total overkill for me, no matter how great the package is.

    And finally this helps me save a lot of thought process and of course also money

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    It certainly isn't a 'looker', but that's not what matters, right ?
    It's the ergonomics that puzzles me. Still I like its 'simple uncluttered' design.
    Admittedly, the E-M1X seems sexier ...
    But hey, isn't that GFX100 a real machine ?

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    I think the bottom handgrip battery compartment and top should have been made in same fashion as body of the camera - the only thing that I don't like about the package - but it wont stop me ( there will be a leather cover made for the camera for sure) - this is the camera I've been waiting for - for many years - ever since this one -

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I think the bottom handgrip battery compartment and top should have been made in same fashion as body of the camera - the only thing that I don't like about the package - but it wont stop me ( there will be a leather cover made for the camera for sure) - this is the camera I've been waiting for - for many years.
    That's the spirit - you'll be our Australian Cavia Porcellus ...
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    That's the spirit - you'll be our Australian Cavia Porcellus ...
    Surely I'm not going to be all alone in the Fuji forum with one of these - shame on you blokes!

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    So Iíve been absorbing information on the camera and overall Iím impressed. Iím not sure how I feel about the ďdigital dialsĒ yet as Iím very much a manual
    mode shooter but Iím willing to give it a chance before final judgment. Like many I wish they wouldíve added a more ergonomic grip to the vertical orientation (even at the expense of size) but thatís a ďsmall gripe as well I suppose. The lens lineup available now is excellent and I could do a lot with just the 32-64, 110, and 250 (or 100-200) alone.

    I dont know that Iíd buy one at $10K anytime soon but it does make me more open to the 50S actually... especially if Fuji cuts the price on them again to the $4-5k range to move their remaining stock of bodies. Thatíll place it directly in competition more aggressively with the high-res FF cameras. As I said in the Sony thread, Iím holding tight on any camera purchases until I see more in the way of a roadmap from Panasonic and until I see what Sony will announce this year. I prefer to stay with Sony as itís the less expensive option for me but Iím not against switching systems (if need be) if something is going to work better for me either.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    They obviously spent the money on technology, and skimped on the design. It is very utilitarian. Ugly actually. Not that it matters.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    I will not comment on the design until I try it. I think both the Mamiya 7II and Leica S are somewhat ungainly, but they both feel amazing in the hand when you are working with them. On the other hand, I think the Leica T looked great, but it was not the greatest to handle because of the lack of real buttons and slowness of the touch screen.

    Anyway, I find the camera hugely impressive. I knew that it would be good for stills, but the surprise is that they seem to have made it into a capable video camera as well, not just "theoritically", but actually good. The samples at Cinema5D are quite good for pre-production. I look forward to trying the camera one day soon.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    I will not comment on the design until I try it. I think both the Mamiya 7II and Leica S are somewhat ungainly, but they both feel amazing in the hand when you are working with them. On the other hand, I think the Leica T looked great, but it was not the greatest to handle because of the lack of real buttons and slowness of the touch screen.

    Anyway, I find the camera hugely impressive. I knew that it would be good for stills, but the surprise is that they seem to have made it into a capable video camera as well, not just "theoritically", but actually good. The samples at Cinema5D are quite good for pre-production. I look forward to trying the camera one day soon.
    I agree. I donít find the camera to be all that ďuglyĒ but I also care more about the function before the form. If the function doesnít work for me then thereís nothing else for me to discuss with any camera.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by iiiNelson View Post
    I prefer to stay with Sony as it’s the less expensive option for me but I’m not against switching systems (if need be) if something is going to work better for me either.
    I now wonder versus the 50R if the Sony FF system is in fact less expensive than the MF Fuji system considering their lenses are priced on par with Sony lens prices even while being very good modern MF lenses. I realize it's the body aspects that make the Fujis more expensive except maybe for the A9.
    Last edited by algrove; 1 Day Ago at 15:07.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorkil View Post
    ...And sometimes I just wonder, should I just have stayed satisfied by my Nikon Df and X-T3?...
    Kind of where I am. I am not seeing a reason to dump my Pentax 645D and Fuji X Pro2/XF10 cameras. They kind of do it all. The only GAS I am getting is due to my dietary habits, rather than my gear.

    I am finding Fuji medium-format cameras a great development (the GFX 50R with the upcoming 50mm prime is teasing me with its appeal, but not sure it will be enough). It is certainly good for photographers. Having printed my work on 42" printers, I just not motivated to change. If they release a medium-format version of the X Pro2, that might be hard to resists though...

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I now wonder versus the 50R if the Sony FF system is in fact less expensive than the MF Fuji system considering their lenses are priced on par with Sony lens prices even while being very good modern MF lenses. I realize it's the body aspects that make the Fujis more expensive except maybe for the A9.
    Well for me I would never buy the 50R.

    The 50S or 100 would be the bodies that interest me personally. In any case Sony would be cheaper because I already own most of the lenses I need.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Meh - I just look at the 100MP as a no brainer for my shooting requirements - it really is no larger/heavier than Leica S or Canon 1D series or Leica SL - but delivers massive cropability and hand holding ease of use to utilise its resolving power via IBIS and the excellent Fuji MF glass - the quality of glass at the Fuji price points is what was the game changer for me - the camera tech in this new body was an unexpected (and massive) bonus. To pu tthings in perspective - I can trade my S body + Noctilux and 90-280SL and pick up this body with a 250 to complete my Fuji MF kit - that is before ditching M10 6 lenses and the SL with a couple more..I want less stuff...sick of 'stuff' hanging around my neck like an albatross - got to the stage when I stopped shooting because I couldn't decide what camera/lens to take on a walk - absolutely ridiculous!

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Meh - I just look at the 100MP as a no brainer for my shooting requirements - it really is no larger/heavier than Leica S or Canon 1D series or Leica SL - but delivers massive cropability and hand holding ease of use to utilise its resolving power via IBIS and the excellent Fuji MF glass - the quality of glass at the Fuji price points is what was the game changer for me - the camera tech in this new body was an unexpected (and massive) bonus. To pu tthings in perspective - I can trade my S body + Noctilux and 90-280SL and pick up this body with a 250 to complete my Fuji MF kit - that is before ditching M10 6 lenses and the SL with a couple more..I want less stuff...sick of 'stuff' hanging around my neck like an albatross - got to the stage when I stopped shooting because I couldn't decide what camera/lens to take on a walk - absolutely ridiculous!

    .
    If I would need it professionally I would anytime choose the GFX100 over any Leica S - simply the better camera and better system with more potential for future evolution for a much better price!

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorkil View Post
    Yes, but I would only "need" a 23mm lens, to replace my SWC, and I would be happy for ever (the dreams are always the sweetest thing, and when the new camera arrives, it just in a peculiar way, just and only take pictures like all the others (and suddenly we are back in reality, no witchcraft, no lifesaver - when do we ever learn?...)
    Apart from that the 100 is just such a huge brick, certainly not a walk-around-camera, and I doubt that the fine pictures we see from the GFX50 here and there will be better by the 100, perhaps at a wallpaper at 3 meters length (9 feet 10 inch) - yes I know I'm just a sour old man...
    And sometimes I just wonder, should I just have stayed satisfied by my Nikon Df and X-T3?, while they certainly are more than good enough (but still the Z7 is the perfect walk-around-camera, perfect to use out there, perfect to use under hasty circumstances, perfect in the communication with my brain that dont need further investigations every time a picture has to be taken, but..less might have done it too, the X-T3 & the Df..perhaps)(but a SWC-replacement?...hhmmm)
    A slight deviation from the thread but Thorkil's comment struck a chord with me.

    I empathise with the need for a SWC replacement. I've only found two cameras which come close to satisfying that requirement.

    Firstly, the Sigma DP0Q which when set to 1:1 mode gave me the feel of working with the SWC again. You can see some of the files in the 'Other Cameras' thread.

    Secondly, the GFX50S with the superb Fujinon 23mm - again with the viewfinder mask set to 1:1. Because of the boxy shape of the body and the way the viewfinder sits on top of it, the actual feel of the camera, let alone the IQ is very reminiscent of holding a SWC.

    Ultimately, there is no replacement for the SWC but sadly digital has way eclipsed the abilities of the camera, if not the exact look with different film emulsions.

    My fantasy purchase if I won the lottery would be a pristine SWC930 with a Hasselblad 50mpx back. I know I'd lose the full ability of the wide angle fov but from the samples I've seen of people who own this combination it is absolutely fantastic.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    If I would need it professionally I would anytime choose the GFX100 over any Leica S - simply the better camera and better system with more potential for future evolution for a much better price!
    All true ... unless you already have a Leica S system that meets your professional requirements.

    I stuck with a S(006) specifically because I still prefer the CCD sensor, (and mine was recently replaced for free). I have five CS leaf-shutter lenses, and the S-100/2. I added a AC adapter for studio work, which assures me that if they ever stop making the S(006) battery (like Kodak did with their back) I can shoot on.

    Price is relative. Not having to buy is the least expensive alternative.

    Walk-around is also relative. Small mirrorless seems suited to that.

    IF I had the disposable cash, an assistant to carry it, and a fair amount of purpose justifying it, I'd get one of these in a NY heart-beat.
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    Super Duper
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    big louis
    I used an SWC with P45+ for many years and as you say there is something special about that camera.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Still happy with my D850 it's better than most medium format backs of a few years ago.. Can't beat the price and it makes prints as big as I can handle. I just don't see the need for medium format anymore.
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    So far I have not seen a Tilt Adapter for the GFX 100.
    That would be an essential accessory for me.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    ..from the comparomater at
    https://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM





    GFX100iso50 vs GFX50Siso50




    GFX100iso50 vs Z7iso64




    GFX50Siso50 vs Z7iso64


    Ps. remember the comparometer only use JPG
    thorkil
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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Just some thoughts on the size of mirrorless sensors, viz a viz Thorkil's comparison photos (above)

    Shortly after I bought a Panasonic GX8, which I decided I actually liked photographing more with at the time than the Sony A7R, I decided I had to do a side by side test to prove that the A7R with its FF sensor and megapixels difference was superior to the m4rds camera with a 20mpx sensor.

    I mean, a 20mpx tiny m43rds sensor couldn't be equivalent, could it?

    What I decided at the end was that the main difference was the number of pixels and not the quality of them. At the pixel level up to about iso3200 the individual pixels were equality good or bad as the noise increased with the iso. There was little to choose between the pixels - in fact I would go so far as to say there was no difference.

    That kind of made sense because both sensors had a native iso of something like iso200 (maybe the Sony was iso100 but I can't remember). So why would the pixels actually be that much different, if at all? At least, that's what my eyes told me.

    On the other hand, the A7R had the ability to crop much further into the image and still have a reasonable file size - that is a significant difference.

    Now all my published work is either in book form, say 16x23cms, or up to A4 in magazines and considerably smaller for web or even newspapers (I never have been asked nor would I do product photography which does require something very large).

    So, basically cropping is not a big issue to me and I junked the Sony kit and just enjoyed shooting a lot more with my m43rds kit until earlier this year when I changed to the Fuji X-T3 - but for reasons of the AF system and for wildlife photography.

    Now, I have to confess I also own a GFX50S. The system is absolutely superb. The IQ is better than the best I ever got out of any camera, including my much loved Leica DRF system. The lenses are sublime, truly amazing. I know at the pixel level it is superior to the Fuji X-T3 - I am very pleased to say (otherwise, what would be the point of owning it?).

    But the point is that it is way beyond anything I actually, practically need. Way, way beyond. I've just started work on my 4th book project with a London guide which requires me to do a lot of walking around various part of London shooting buildings and objects to include in the book.

    Which camera do I leave home with?

    You guessed it: the X-T3. I can get the X-T3, the 10-20/4, 18-55 and 55-200 into a small peak design bag and hop on and off public transport - and walk up to 7-10Kms without feeling as though I am going to keel over. And as explained, the output is more than adequate for the intended book size. The look and feel of the photos is also great, so I don't feel disadvantaged shooting with a camera which is only APS-C.

    With the GFX50S I would have to chose the body and a single lens, possibly a second if I was feeling particularly strong that day to take with me to a location. And that means I would have to return to a location several times with different lenses according to the subject. I'm not being lazy - just practical.

    I thoroughly recommend the GFX50S and I have no doubt the GFX100 will be fantastic. Much is down to the glass with out-Leica's Leica glass, imho. Especially the 23mm f4 and the 45mm 2.8. But honestly, unless you are doing product or fashion photography - if space/weight is an issue - then APS-C or FF mirrorless is going to give you the same practical results - even if not the same 'visuality' or look as the Fuji MF glass.

    Just my two cents

    LouisB
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    "My photography books", Flickr Stream
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    Re: The Mirrorless Endgame ...

    Louis, I totally agree. My interest and decision to own a Nikon mirrorless several years before it came out was purely handling, ease of use, reliability, size and weight, and with Nikon I knew it would be that good solution for me. So you are right, in front of the screen one tend to forget the practical issue, which is so important and grow upon you as a keyfactor once you are getting around in the real world.
    The comparometer at 100% tells me that the Z7 aint that bad at all for my use, when it does hold up well against such splendid ones as the 50S. So I'm about to be aware of, that I'm actually rather satisfied for the time being, and for the future. And improvements could better be as simple as perhaps getting a tripod along or investigate in PP.

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