Xt-4

[Elderly]

Now I am heavily invested in m43 and the used prices of this system are pretty down - you get €420.- for a good second hand EM1.2 - official Olympus price for taking the camera back, which they do in Europe.

WRT X-T4 - I see this X system meanwhile pretty problematic because one can get FF for around €1900.- - Sony A73, Nikon Z6 or even Canon R. So hard to decide to get into APSC today, especially since great new FF glass is also available for interesting prices (except Canon RF).

With the Fuji X-T4, the Nikon Z6 and the Olympus EM1.3 bodies all at about the same price, size and weight,
I cannot see much of a reason (if starting from scratch) to buy into anything else either than a FF body.

BUT ...... MY dilemma for travel, is that I want to travel light and I also want to carry a long zoom .

IIRC in the UK, a store was offering £600 in p/ex for the EM1.2. But that's still a £1000 difference for the joy of a joystick .

 

[ptomsu]

With the Fuji X-T4, the Nikon Z6 and the Olympus EM1.3 bodies all at about the same price, size and weight,
I cannot see much of a reason (if starting from scratch) to buy into anything else either than a FF body.

BUT ...... MY dilemma for travel, is that I want to travel light and I also want to carry a long zoom .

IIRC in the UK, a store was offering £600 in p/ex for the EM1.2. But that's still a £1000 difference for the joy of a joystick .

To be honest I do no longer see much reason why to buy into any crop sensor camera at the current prices. Think about Z6 that has a MUCH better high ISO performance than any crop sensor camera and add that kit zoom 4/24-70 and you have a pretty light travel combo for around €2000.- Even WRT DOF the FF sensor wins at F4 compared to a Olympus 2.8/12-40 that results in best case as F5.6 and for the Fuji 2.8/16-55 it is something about F4 equivalent. And you always can crank up the ISO of the Z6 without any issue up to ISO 25000 and still get better noise than the crop counterparts.

Long telezoom - for travel - there is that new Nikon Z 24-200/F4-6.3 VR .... that sounds really great and should solve lot of your problems and is a decent priced lens as well.

I also think that crop sensors are currently at the edge of what can be achieved with resolution as well as DR and high ISO. A 24MP FF sensor is lightyears above all these sensors and hence another killing argument for me to go with anything crop.

 

[biglouis]

Looks great except I don't like the flippy screen. Keeping the X-T3

To be honest I do no longer see much reason why to buy into any crop sensor camera at the current prices.

All down to personal preference. I really miss the flippy screen I had on the G9. So, a winner for me.

I agree about the apparent better value of the Nikon FF system. HOWEVER like many Fuji users I am so heavily invested in glass now that to go to another system is a bind.

As you know, I have been very tempted by the the Z6+pf500 for wildlife. I am still thinking about it. More so that the Olympus EM1X+300/4. I've looked at a lot of work with the Oly and it just about matches the X-T3 up to about iso1600 but not beyond. I regularly shoot the X-T3 at iso6400 for wildlife and pull out great photos.

To protect my investment in Fuji I really need a cheaper alternative to the ridiculously priced 200/2, e.g. 300/4. I just hope this is one of the 3 lenses that Fuji are teasing us about adding to their roadmap.

Incidentally, if you order the X-T3 in the UK, you can claim GBP500 off the 200/2. But we're still taking about an outlay of about GBP6400. For that kind of cost the Z6+pf500 is a frickin' bargain!

Just my two cents

LouisB

 

[ptomsu]

All down to personal preference. I really miss the flippy screen I had on the G9. So, a winner for me.

I agree about the apparent better value of the Nikon FF system. HOWEVER like many Fuji users I am so heavily invested in glass now that to go to another system is a bind.

As you know, I have been very tempted by the the Z6+pf500 for wildlife. I am still thinking about it. More so that the Olympus EM1X+300/4. I've looked at a lot of work with the Oly and it just about matches the X-T3 up to about iso1600 but not beyond. I regularly shoot the X-T3 at iso6400 for wildlife and pull out great photos.

To protect my investment in Fuji I really need a cheaper alternative to the ridiculously priced 200/2, e.g. 300/4. I just hope this is one of the 3 lenses that Fuji are teasing us about adding to their roadmap.

Incidentally, if you order the X-T3 in the UK, you can claim GBP500 off the 200/2. But we're still taking about an outlay of about GBP6400. For that kind of cost the Z6+pf500 is a frickin' bargain!

Just my two cents

LouisB

I still would go with the 100-400 if I were you. I know you did not like this lens but for me it worked miracles even and especially at the long end with my X-T2.

As you mention price of the complete system might be the only reason to go for either m43 or X system compared to FF. As soon as one starts lusting after long zoom capable FF lenses it soon gets pretty expensive.

But for me, I could just add the EM1.3 to my existing m43 glass and call it a day - maybe I will even do so. But then I start calculating how much more I could get if I invest into Nikon FF Z system with current prices I am getting hesitant again to invest into smaller sensors any further. As I said earlier, if the X-T3 had IBIS and longer battery life when it came out it would have been a no brainer for me, but meanwhile the photography landscape changed significantly making decisions to stay in crop sensor land much harder - at least for me.

 

[biglouis]

Peter

I agree. We are both invested in different systems and while the grass may seem greener somewhere else the fact is that for most practical purposes either of our systems will work fine.

As you know, I only reluctantly moved from m43rds because the Panasonic DFD system (which users of the new FF Pannys are now discovering is sub-par) was pretty much useless for moving wildlife. The Fuji is streets better and it now sounds like the X-T4 improves on that. I suspect side-by-side it is only at the top end of iso (e.g. 3200+) that the Fuji has an edge over the new 1.3 or the EM1X.

Louis

 

[MGrayson]

With the Fuji X-T4, the Nikon Z6 and the Olympus EM1.3 bodies all at about the same price, size and weight,
I cannot see much of a reason (if starting from scratch) to buy into anything else either than a FF body.

Are the systems the same size, price, and weight? What lenses would you buy?

And the most important reason - which one do you like using?

Matt

 

[Elderly]

Are the systems the same size, price, and weight? What lenses would you buy?

And the most important reason - which one do you like using?

Matt

Those are my two lemmas; as I have already said: "MY dilemma for travel, is that I want to travel light and I also want to carry a long zoom".

but importantly finding out which systems I like using, without comparative commitment is not easy.

I spent about 30 years as a pro lugging about the most ridiculous amount of equipment and when I retired,
micro four thirds suited me down to the ground, it was an easy decision, it was as far away from my paid photography as I wanted to go.

But now, the rise of mirrorless into other larger formats has narrowed the size/weight gap and opened up these choices for me,
BUT I can't really justify a big spend getting it wrong, especially as cameras no longer earn me money - I have other expensive hobbies too :thumbup: (and it's SO nice not to have cupboards full of little used gear!).

I have to wait anyway, as the XT-4 is not yet available and neither is the Nikon Z 24-200 which could directly replace my beloved 12-100 Olympus M4/3 travel lens.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

When I don't take photos, particularly when sitting in front of a computer, I want a new camera. I want the latest, greatest, the X-T4, the Nikon D6 and the panasonic S1R. When I take photos, I couldn't care less. I use whatever I have, my GH1 still works fine, and I look at the photos and think that I have to improve... not my camera, but my eyes and my brain.

 

[ptomsu]

When I don't take photos, particularly when sitting in front of a computer, I want a new camera. I want the latest, greatest, the X-T4, the Nikon D6 and the panasonic S1R. When I take photos, I couldn't care less. I use whatever I have, my GH1 still works fine, and I look at the photos and think that I have to improve... not my camera, but my eyes and my brain.

I expected to be much more intrigued by that Fuji X-T4 - finally larger battery, IBIS and lot of other improvements .... but hey when I see that price and the price where other great FF mirrorless offerings are like Z6, A73 and EOS R then suddenly all of that excitement vanishes in a second.

So here you have it, interesting camera, but I seem to be no longer interested in that all singing and dancing non-FF cameras (Olympus and m43 included) when there are these great FF offerings and prices. The price of that X-T4 should not have been over €/$ 1500.-

I think many will fell the same way and that might be the biggest danger for cropped sensor cameras and their manufacturers.

 

[MGrayson]

:lecture:A camera body does not a system make.:lecture:

If you want to compare systems, pick what lenses you would want to use, and compare their total size, weight, and price. And even THEN, feeling in the hand will matter more.

I'm using an X-H1. For everything except AF, it ticks all my boxes. Since I manually check the focus on anything static, the AF deficiencies don't kill it for me. The X-T4 is better on paper in every way, but if I don't like handling it, I won't upgrade. The lenses are a bigger investment than any one (or three) bodies.

Matt

 

[pegelli]

For me the big advantage of cropped sensors is especially in cases you want reach that a smaller sensor makes your lenses a lot smaller. Price of the body is not so relevant for me, it's more how easy the system is in use and to carry around. In the end don't we all spend too much money anyway on this hobby while it's actually about enjoying to go out and take photo's

FF certainly has advantages especially when it comes to IQ and low light capabilities, but physics determines that for the same FOV the lenses are a lot bigger.

In that regard the current Sony and Nikon mirrorless offerings with one mount for APS-C and FF have a little advantage in my mind, with one lens you get more reach when using the crop sensor while you still get some other FF advantages when that's not needed. Fuji, Canon and Panasonic also have different sensor sizes but different mounts between them. No problem if you're happy with one sensor size but less flexible in that regard.

Still the XT-4 seems to be a very nice camera and a good further evolution for Fuji APS-C shooters.

 

[ptomsu]

For me the big advantage of cropped sensors is especially in cases you want reach that a smaller sensor makes your lenses a lot smaller. Price of the body is not so relevant for me, it's more how easy the system is in use and to carry around. In the end don't we all spend too much money anyway on this hobby while it's actually about enjoying to go out and take photo's

FF certainly has advantages especially when it comes to IQ and low light capabilities, but physics determines that for the same FOV the lenses are a lot bigger.

In that regard the current Sony and Nikon mirrorless offerings with one mount for APS-C and FF have a little advantage in my mind, with one lens you get more reach when using the crop sensor while you still get some other FF advantages when that's not needed. Fuji, Canon and Panasonic also have different sensor sizes but different mounts between them. No problem if you're happy with one sensor size but less flexible in that regard.

Still the XT-4 seems to be a very nice camera and a good further evolution for Fuji APS-C shooters.

Well for reach I have Olympus m43 and BTW Olympus IBIS is still lightyears above Fuji

So for me this latest Fuji offering does not look appealing and hence better move on to whatever kind of FF mirrorless. Time will tell :thumbs:

 

[pegelli]

I agree Peter, being invested in Olympus M4/3 gives you reach at a reasonable size/weight.

So if you don't mind to add a completely different system with its own set of lenses and a different mount for the FF IQ that's certainly a possibility.

 

[iiiNelson]

Looks like a great camera for the average person that wants a system they won’t soon outgrow. There is a logical argument that APS-C provides the best balance between system size, weight, and performance. It’s not to say that FF isn’t potentially more capable for most but I’m not so sure it’s the answer for most any longer.

Really the only thing I don’t care for in this camera is the articulating screen. I prefer the screen that Fuji has always used. I also prefer the body style of the XH1. Frankly if they would’ve introduced the XH1 in this price range with the updated video specs and fewer of the manufacturing issues - it would likely be the camera I recommended to most people that were concerned with size AND performance.

 

[raist3d]

Well for reach I have Olympus m43 and BTW Olympus IBIS is still lightyears above Fuji

No, not apparently after X-T4.

So for me this latest Fuji offering does not look appealing and hence better move on to whatever kind of FF mirrorless. Time will tell :thumbs:

- Ricardo

 

[raist3d]

For me the big advantage of cropped sensors is especially in cases you want reach that a smaller sensor makes your lenses a lot smaller. Price of the body is not so relevant for me, it's more how easy the system is in use and to carry around. In the end don't we all spend too much money anyway on this hobby while it's actually about enjoying to go out and take photo's

FF certainly has advantages especially when it comes to IQ and low light capabilities, but physics determines that for the same FOV the lenses are a lot bigger.

In that regard the current Sony and Nikon mirrorless offerings with one mount for APS-C and FF have a little advantage in my mind, with one lens you get more reach when using the crop sensor while you still get some other FF advantages when that's not needed. Fuji, Canon and Panasonic also have different sensor sizes but different mounts between them. No problem if you're happy with one sensor size but less flexible in that regard.

Still the XT-4 seems to be a very nice camera and a good further evolution for Fuji APS-C shooters.

There's a huge overlap between Fuji and m43rds in size/weight on a range of popular focal lengths. From wide to about 100-120ish. It's in 150+ that m43rds still shows a clear advantage. but not anymore at the shorter focals.

Check the Fuji small primes and compare. And all the Olympus F1.2 Pro primes that so many like for bokeh in m43rds are pretty big. AT that point you an compare with many Fuji primes.

This is why I wanted both Olympus and Panasonic to keep the concept of a pro small m43rds camera alive. Olympus did a bit with the Em5.3 but really, we should be seen a "GM10" and a "semi-pro" EPL-11.

- Ricardo

 

[ptomsu]

No, not apparently after X-T4.



- Ricardo

Well I do not know what is really your reference point but in practical use and even on data sheet (6.5 stops versus 7.5 stops) Olympus IBIS is superior.

 

[pegelli]

Well I do not know what is really your reference point but in practical use and even on data sheet (6.5 stops versus 7.5 stops) Olympus IBIS is superior.

Since IBIS is a statistical game and just increases the probability of a sharp shot the number on the spec sheet is irrelevant without quoting what percentage of sharp shots can still be expected. Maybe Olympus goes for 50% and Fuji 70%, or vice versa. Who knows but without testing the cameras in the same manner (the same hand) I think the difference between 6.5 stops and 7.5 stops on the specsheet is insignificant and I certainly would not call it "lightyears" difference.

 

[Knorp]

:watch: ...

 

[ptomsu]

Since IBIS is a statistical game and just increases the probability of a sharp shot the number on the spec sheet is irrelevant without quoting what percentage of sharp shots can still be expected. Maybe Olympus goes for 50% and Fuji 70%, or vice versa. Who knows but without testing the cameras in the same manner (the same hand) I think the difference between 6.5 stops and 7.5 stops on the specsheet is insignificant and I certainly would not call it "lightyears" difference.

Well, the knowledge how to build IBIS is still lightyears ahead when it comes to Olympus compared to all other brands. This was also acknowledged by almost all youtube videos about IBIS in different camera brands - so I believe the numbers are pretty correct.

But of course you always can start by stating someone's opinion and knowledge is wrong and thus ignore reality. Anyway good luck with that.

For me both - Olympus as well as Fuji have pretty much lost their credibility with that latest camera releases and according pricing - although I must admit Olympus much more compared to Fuji. But in both cases I had expected more (much more) that finally did not materialise. But then trying to sell these cameras at the current high price points is simply not serious. At least for me. So I sincerely suggest both should go back to the drawing boards and also rethink their pricing model in a world where FF mirrorless became as cheap and as portable as it is today.

So finally it is not if Olympus or Fuji IBIS are better but that both companies are staring to p*** o** their clients and customers increasingly and this is what I hate. Hence I am looking elsewhere.