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Thread: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

  1. #1
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    NEW = in the box, unused, as you would get it from a shop, no exceptions.

    MINT = looks LIKE NEW, no marks other than fingerprints, functions like NEW.

    EXCELLENT = a couple of VERY light signs of use, maybe a little dust between elements, but nothing visible without a bright light shining through. No brassing. Functions perfectly.

    USER = brassing/marks on the body, no deep (deforming) dents or gouges. maybe light faint cleaning marks. Functions very well with no problems.

    UGLY = deep gouges in body, scratches that may affect image quality, possibly fungus, functioning. Maybe missing large sections of leatherette.

    FOR PARTS/AS-IS = not functioning, serious scratches/dents/marks. ANYTHING from a smoking environment.

    If anyone disagrees please let me know but I am SICK AND TIRED of buying things online described as MINT, MINT- or EXCELLENT++ only to find out they're more like USER or even UGLY in some cases. I'm at wits end. I think I'm going to happily pay the premium to buy used items from a store in future. Mods please move if I didn't post it in the right place

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Daniel,

    I feel your pain. However, the problem with buying gear is that everything is SUBJECTIVE... unless it is BRAND NEW and UNUSED, everything else is open to interpretation. Even your definitions contain ambiguous and non-measureable terms

    I am sure that this is not the first time someone attempts at defining a scale (nor will it be the last). The problem with standards is that there are so many

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    The real Key in listing something for sale is to Describe it as a "buyer" and not as a seller. In your minds eye.

    Describe it as a Buyer who is looking at it thinking of buying it while turning it around and playing with aperture, focus and cosmetics.

    Usually a seller has had it for a while and does not "see" the same marks, because of familiarity with it, as a buyer would who would be " seeing" it for the first time.

    Also ,Honesty goes a long way and is the best policy. But also including quality photos is another key.
    Dennis.

  4. #4
    Senior Member mathomas's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Problem is, I'm afraid people who don't list things with careful/conservative descriptions in the first place aren't likely to change their habits to do a better job. It doesn't matter if we post definitions, or philosophies, or whatever (as much as I agree with them).

    It's hard for me to believe sometimes but I think that people have truly different perceptions of condition. And, even the best of us (ahem) can miss things. I did a successful sale here of a ZM Planar 50. I was very careful to describe the slight "Zeiss wobble" that it had, and had reduced my price to compensate. The buyer gave me positive feedback but the interesting thing is he said that "the wobble is not noticeable, but there's a very small nick on the barrel that you didn't mention". I hadn't even noticed the nick (probably too worked up about the wobble)! I probably could have sold the lens for more to this particular buyer.

    Recently, over on RFF, there was a discussion of "mint", and it amazed me to see the relativistic terms in which quite a few people thought of that term.

  5. #5
    Member saxshooter's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    yes, including large "warts and all" pictures is the way to go. I'm on a few musical instrument related forums and I forgive musicians for not being able to take good pictures of their gear.

    We are all photographers here. No excuse for not being able to take clear pictures and providing them for interested buyers when asked. You can even take a decent picture with your smartphone if needed.

    Then again, when selling small items worth thousands of dollars, buyers can be pretty anal about condition.

    Used gear has been, ahem, USED!
    Sony NEX, Olympus m4/3 + Panasonic lenses, Leica M, and too many lenses

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Pictures, pictures, and more pictures. Seller should provide and buyers shouldn't be shy to ask.

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Unfortunately, this goes with the territory of buying unseen in a virtual community where trust has to be established relatively quickly. with that said, I find that I lean towards buyers and sellers who have a history. I do alot of buying and selling on Fred Miranda and tend to lean towards those with a lengthy history. It may be unfair but that way I have other people who have built up that trust for me over time.

    On a separate note, I enjoy watches and the if you think people are anal about camera gear then you ain't seen nothing yet. I bought a 5 year old watch that I'd swear was new and I think it received a 97% rating from the seller. Even the leather strap was pristine, it didn't even have a kink in it that display models get.

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Speaking for myself I got it straight master:

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30571

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I bought a 300mm lens from a guy who described it as "mint." It had some scratches and paint chips various places on the body. When I mentioned this discrepancy to him, his reply was, "Yeah, but have you seen how sharp the photos are?" To him, "mint" meant superior IQ. [I didn't agree and received a partial refund.]
    Stephen Penland
    www.stephenpenland.com

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    With some tweaking, this watch grading system is pretty good:

    http://www.timezone.com/library/tzgu...30832192343750

    scroll to grading system section.
    Last edited by Mountainrivera; 26th September 2011 at 17:59.

  11. #11
    GroovyGeek
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    It is a chicken and egg problem, but if you buy from someone who has been around for a few years and has a series of transactions under their belt you can be pretty sure that a) they have described the warts conservatively and b) if they did miss something they will make it right, either by reducing the price or taking back the item. To me the track record is cumulative, between all sources of transactions, even non-photographic ones. Paying attention to the value of the transactions is also important, I don't want to be buying a $2k lens from someone who has previously only sold filters. I also pay particular attention to how a seller communicates when I inquire about an item. If he/she answers the questions I would want to ask either in the ad or in a PM *before* I ask them that is a pretty sure sign of a reliable seller. If on the other hand, the ad is a 1-liner that states "Lens X, condition Y, PM for pics" and then the pics are not-so-good images without a narrative to accompany them I usually do not send money. Sure, it is "unfair" to honest newbies, but it is not like this is their only option - there is always CL and *Bay.

    A forum such as this one is by definition "buyer beware", so while I feel the pain of those involved in less-than-successful transactions there is little that can be effectively done. We have to self-police, if too many problems pile up the mods will simply shut down this board.

  12. #12
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    My favourite is "mint for its age" what the hell!?

    Paulo, your reaction is very aggressive... I was expressing my concern over hazy and misleading condition reports. Based on your description of your combination I would say all parts are EX+ except the camera body which is Mint. But as has discussed in this thread, clearly that is subjective.

    EDIT: scratch that, there's a nice big ding on the shutter-speed dial (it actually obliterates most of the 1s engraving!) of your camera that you describe as "The camera body is like new. Mounted twice on a tripod." So you are a case study of my point exactly. You even mention this mark in the description but still call the camera 'like new' how does that work?

    And before you complain, you opened the door by linking to your for sale thread with your aggressive post regarding my concern over fuzzy use of terms like mint or "like new".

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I feel your pain so I follow two simple rules.
    1. Never buy from someone who does not have credible feedback selling similar stuff. There are a lot of folks with feedback buying, not selling. I keep it to those who have sold and only buy from those who have 100% positive feedback. More importantly, I view that my responsibility is to
    2. Ask a lot of questions. I don't assume the the add is complete or accurate. Ask what you need to know and keep the emails or pm's.

    It was hard lesson to learn. Frank

  14. #14
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I like to ask myself, would I buy this without a picture? If not, then it's probably not mint and certainly not like new. Once there's a description of the condition and pictures I also think any actual rating is unimportant. One person's user is another's exc+. Or even mint if we're looking at old gear. So the rating just becomes part of the sales prose and of minor significance.

    Of course, since we deal with fairly pricy stuff a picture or two even for LN adds confidence all around, but if it's someone I know selling something new or "mint, almost like new" I don't personally need a picture.

    Ratings used to matter when you paid for ads in Shutterbug by the word and photos weren't used much. They're also important for used dealers who can't possibly have photos of every single item in their inventory (such as KEH). But for the rest of us just buying and selling privately, I think a verbal description and photos makes ratings rather unimportant and not something that warrants a whole lot of attention.

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Photos of the real thing bring a lot of weight. But I once bought a lens from a seller (not from this forum), who purposely tried to hide the fault of the lens - a one inch crack in the glass. The photo was taken in an angle such that you can only vivid see it if you know where to look. It was a nightmare.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Without pictures, I wouldn't buy anything from a private seller, unless I had trust in their reputation and judgment.

    Personally, unless I come across something here that I've thought about buying but just haven't purchased yet, I buy most of my used gear from KEH....for 10+ years now. From my perspective, the KEH condition ratings have been either very conservative or spot on.....so I've been willing to pay a little extra for that assurance. They also have a 15 day, no questions asked, full refund policy. In 10+ years with many, many items purchased.....I've only returned one item.

    Gary

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    This topic is so subjective that there is no point of trying to define a credible method of quantifying condition of a used item... especially when the items is being sold by a private seller who is obviously biased, what is the point of asking for description?

    Ask for pics, lots of pics, and determine yourself what the condition is.. It's that simple.
    I've seen some people offering a refund if the condition is not as described and I think that is a good way of earning credibility. If you have received an item that is not as described, then you didn't ask enough questions, or you didn't ask for pics.. It's hard to blame someone because the seller does not have the same evaluation scale as you.
    Scott

  18. #18
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I also bought a 135mm f/3.5 planar for 4x5 (a rather scarce and expensive item) for a good price because the STORE said it only had one little 5mm scratch on the rear element that shouldn't affect shots. The lens was filthy and covered in scratches and coating marks. I dismantled and cleaned it, the store owner made the excuse of them all being old (the staff)... I know they aren't.

    Anyway, sight unseen it is always a gamble, but it really grinds my gears when people use the word mint subjectively, with that one I do not think there should be any visible marks or flaws. Brand new is UNUSED - that should be the only way it differs from mint.

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Daniel,

    I'm totally with you on this one.

    Greg

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I agree with the misuse of the word, "mint". I usually ask a whole lot more questions and request more pics if the seller uses that word.

    However, honestly, there were times when I sold a few things where I thought it was mint but the buyer said it was excellent+... so I try not to use that word unless I'm completely sure... at the end of the day, there are people who the word intentionally/unintentionally, and there are differing opinions on the definition.

    Sight unseen is always a gamble, and that is why you ask for pics.
    Things like large scratches, and filth can be seen in pics. I've found sellers can hide coating marks if pics are taken on a certain angle/light.

    As the old saying goes, "A picture is worth a thousand words"
    Scott

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I disagree and I will write the description in MY add as I find convinient.



    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    NEW = in the box, unused, as you would get it from a shop, no exceptions.

    MINT = looks LIKE NEW, no marks other than fingerprints, functions like NEW.

    EXCELLENT = a couple of VERY light signs of use, maybe a little dust between elements, but nothing visible without a bright light shining through. No brassing. Functions perfectly.

    USER = brassing/marks on the body, no deep (deforming) dents or gouges. maybe light faint cleaning marks. Functions very well with no problems.

    UGLY = deep gouges in body, scratches that may affect image quality, possibly fungus, functioning. Maybe missing large sections of leatherette.

    FOR PARTS/AS-IS = not functioning, serious scratches/dents/marks. ANYTHING from a smoking environment.

    If anyone disagrees please let me know but I am SICK AND TIRED of buying things online described as MINT, MINT- or EXCELLENT++ only to find out they're more like USER or even UGLY in some cases. I'm at wits end. I think I'm going to happily pay the premium to buy used items from a store in future. Mods please move if I didn't post it in the right place

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Personally I never use the word mint myself. I mostly use the phrase excellent condition or good condition. Or if it is really clean LNIB. It is subjective and we do encourage very highly pictures here on the site. But I'm also guilty of not posting pictures on some items too. From my seat it usually comes down to someone I know and if I don't know them than I ask for pictures. I also have sort of a threshold price in my head if it's under 1k not to much risk but after that it's real money and like to see something if I don't know the person. Now that is me and my money talking.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Of course accordingly to the rules of the forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vobluda View Post
    I disagree and I will write the description in MY add as I find convinient.

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Quote Originally Posted by Vobluda View Post
    Of course accordingly to the rules of the forum.
    Thank you
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I agree that it's wise to avoid the use of the word "mint." For a truly exceptional piece of equipment, I like to use the word "near-mint" and then a more detailed description, just to give myself room and to focus on a more detailed description rather than relying on a single word to carry the message.

    Bottom line for me is: no surprises. I don't like to be surprised in a negative way by some aspect of an item I receive, and I don't want my buyers to be similarly surprised.
    Stephen Penland
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  26. #26
    luke_28
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Daniel - I agree with your assessment of condition, and while I have had only a minor problem or two on other forums, the sellers were able to remedy the situation.

    As I read posts on a forum, if I find someone that I don't particularly agree with their attitude, I just add them to my ignore list. If a seller comes up on my ignore list, there is no way I will deal with them, even if it is a great deal on something that I'm looking for. Probably not the wisest way to handle things, but the way I prefer.

  27. #27
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I think the old adage: "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" applies well to photography gear, but for me it's an obsession to find the exception to the rule. It almost always ends up costing me more than just buying the nice condition one with lots of pictures in the first place

  28. #28
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    In this forum I have found sellers fraudulently using pictures of gear that I listed elsewhere to create bogus for sale listings. In one other case a seller was trying to sell an item that was known to be stolen. I reported the two above incidents to the owners of this forum and was surprised by the defensive posture almost protecting these 'sellers'. Caveat emptor does apply. Accurate descriptions are important, but I'd also advise buyers to be wary of sellers that change their user name frequently or don't participate in other threads. There's a reason why such people feel they need to trade under several user id's.

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    EH21,

    Unfortunately, you never gave us any proof other than your words against the other party. We do not have any authority to "enforce" laws, nor will we act on a statement from anyone about the actions of another without hard proof. In other words, your word that somebody else did such and such, is not enough for us to take action against another person. What if the table had been turned, and the other claims you stole his picture? That is why we choose to stay out of it, and further CLEARLY state that use of the B&S is at your risk.

    So, what can you do? 1) YOU are free to warn in the feedback section, and why we put it there in the first place. 2) Anybody that expects us to take action needs to provide us with incontrovertible proof of their claim before we can do anything. Note that a photo of a piece of gear without your copyright in the photo is useless to us; note that an email or PM saying so-and-so screwed me out of $XXX is useless to us; note that 30 of you all saying you got screwed by so-and-so is USELSS to us without hard PROOF of your claims, but probably would work pretty darn well if you all posted it in the feedback section.

    FWIW, if I get any more static about our "inaction" on dealing with this issue, I will exercise the intelligent alternative: shut the B&S down permanently. Keep in mind we make nothing on the B&S and offer it to you free of charge and warn that it is at your own risk, period.

    PS: If you don't like it the way it is, then don't use it, simple as that.
    Jack
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  30. #30
    Senior Member EH21's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Deleted by Jack. Ed, take this up with me offline, I will not argue with you in public. If you persist, I will ban you. Bottom line is what you sent me was not PROOF, you may think it was, but it was not. More to the point I will repeat: if you don't like the way we run the B&S, do not use it!

    PS: The other reality is the person you refer to was ultimately banned.

  31. #31
    Member saxshooter's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Quote Originally Posted by EH21 View Post
    In this forum I have found sellers fraudulently using pictures of gear that I listed elsewhere to create bogus for sale listings. In one other case a seller was trying to sell an item that was known to be stolen. I reported the two above incidents to the owners of this forum and was surprised by the defensive posture almost protecting these 'sellers'. Caveat emptor does apply. Accurate descriptions are important, but I'd also advise buyers to be wary of sellers that change their user name frequently or don't participate in other threads. There's a reason why such people feel they need to trade under several user id's.
    I hope you flagged the posts for everyone to see by posting a reply into the ad's thread.

    Caveat Emptor, folks.

    Look at the poster/seller. When did they join? Are they active in forum discussions? All the information is there. Just click on the name and do some research.

    Search for the poster/seller's name in the feedback section.

    Ask for pictures if none are posted. Ask questions.

    Thank you moderators for this free Buy and Sell forum. I would hate to see it go away.
    Sony NEX, Olympus m4/3 + Panasonic lenses, Leica M, and too many lenses

  32. #32
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Quote Originally Posted by saxshooter View Post
    I hope you flagged the posts for everyone to see by posting a reply into the ad's thread.
    No. Direct accusations that cannot be proved are not allowed. Use the FEEDBACK section stating YOUR EXPERIENCE!

    If you have to warn in the actual FS post, say something obtuse like, "Can you post a picture of the item with today's paper?" or even , "Gee you only have 2 posts here, can you point to some other sales on other sites you've completed?" Or something along those lines. Folks here are savvy enough to understand that as a caution and you don't need to make an outright accusation that can't be proved.
    Jack
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  33. #33
    Member saxshooter's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Subtle. I like it.
    Sony NEX, Olympus m4/3 + Panasonic lenses, Leica M, and too many lenses

  34. #34
    Super Duper
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    This is/was/will be the never-ending quest...the perfect grading system that everyone follows, without fail.

    It'll never happen.

    Pics help, but to truly cover all bases, one has to provide many, many close-ups. Not everyone even has the proper gear or lighting to supply pics of sufficient quality that provide absolutely clear representations of all flaws...and some flaws are very difficult if not impossible to photograph even if you *DO* have the proper gear...

    Reputation is key here, and why I offer easy return options in case my descriptions are interpreted differently.

  35. #35
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Fancy equipment not necessary in closeups.

    I think that if the photo you upload is "larger than life", ie, at 1000 pixels the lens front element is bigger than it actually is, then you're doing pretty good.

    Most digital point and shoots nowadays have a macro function (the little flower button). Take what you're selling outside on an overcast day or in some shade, fill your frame and you're good to go!

    Even the crap camera on my Blackberry gets pretty close. Here's my filthy 16-35mm front element (not for sale), I just walked outside and snapped it with my BlackBerry:

    Sony NEX, Olympus m4/3 + Panasonic lenses, Leica M, and too many lenses

  36. #36
    Super Duper
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Some sellers post gear pics taken with an iphone...

    Sure, macro on a P&S will work for most stuff, but many flaws won't be properly revealed with a simple snapshot. That's why a description is important and a return policy.

  37. #37
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Some sellers post gear pics taken with an iphone...

    Sure, macro on a P&S will work for most stuff, but many flaws won't be properly revealed with a simple snapshot. That's why a description is important and a return policy.
    Yes, no doubt good pics showing detail are important for most FS items although sometimes pics themselves (depending on lighting) don't always reflect how an item looks "in hand". With some more basic less expensive items, sometimes a simple written explanation without pics (at first), can often be enough for a sale. Take for instance a hard drive or some other items where external condition may not be the most important criteria, especially if LN or new.

    With that said, a near perfect reputation, strong feedbacks on this and other forums and even a long lengthy ebay record can go a long way that pics alone can't do. Then there is the written description.

    As Monza and other have mentioned, a lengthy detailed description in words is important, in my opinion. Sometimes I've been accused of being too wordy and too lengthy on descriptions of some pricy items...but I feel what may or may not be seen clearly or perfectly in pictures, can surely be described in words. A pic may not fully reveal the extent of a flaw, but there is no way one can't describe it in words, especially if it can be seen.

    It would be nice to have a grading system that is interpreted by everyone the same, but unfortunately subjectivity often gets in the way and sometimes a situation exists when two on on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of how they view a particuar grade....of say E+ .

    As was mentioned, put yourself in the place of the buyer when selling something, describe everything as though you were the buyer and what you would expect out of any exceptionally good transaction. Generally that will go a long way to a happy trouble free transaction for both parties and thats the way every transaction should idealy be.

    Dave (D&A)

  38. #38
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I'm pretty new to the forum. Where's the feedback section, please?

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Feedback can be found by clicking the FS or WTB forum. The first two "stickies" are positive and negative feedback. You can also click on the name of the seller on the FS post and go to threads started or added to by the seller; that might lead to useful information.

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Daniel, I do like your descriptions.

    When looking at a potential purchase I do expect a description of the item and photographs for an item for sale. The exception would be someone who has sold a lot on the forum with positive feedback and is a solid contributor in the discussion threads.

    If a seller tells me they have positive feedback somewhere else it just does not carry much weight for me. If someone is going to try to scam you who is to say they may not impersonate another user from anther forum. It is the internet and not everyone is your 'photography' friend.

    I have avoided making inquires on items from new members simply because I do not want to get burned.

    I have found items at KEH and Adorama and paid a good price but have found there descriptions of the equipment to be spot-on.

    I have bought and sold several items on this forum without any issues. Common sense goes a long way in choosing to sell to a particular buyer as well as buying.

    Thanks to Jack and Guy for providing the forum! Also thanks to the moderators who step in and take care of business when needed. Hopefully the B&S section of the forum stays in place.

    When in doubt, do not pull the trigger on a transaction, another deal is always around the conner.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Well said Dan. Bottom line use common sense , report issues. We are doing our best or at least try really hard. If I had a way to limit users post to 100 before they could use this section. I would use that button faster than I could blink. Problem is there is no button. LoL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member weinschela's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Dear Vobluda, I am not sure what you mean and even qualified by adhering to the rules of the B/S forum (whose prime rule is caveat emptor), as an "emptor" I would have lots of "caveat" about buying anything if your view of condition varied dramatically from Daniel's list. What is it about the list that you disagree with?
    Last edited by weinschela; 29th September 2011 at 17:45.
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Seeing how many camera systems most of the users have here I would guess that 95% have the proper equipment to take som fair shots of their equipment. If new is spotless, you tell about the spots thats there, which wouldnt be there if it was new in box. If you cant see a big scratch on the front element or a paint chip on a lens you should probably get another hobby IMO.

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    NEW = in the box, unused, as you would get it from a shop, no exceptions.

    MINT = looks LIKE NEW, no marks other than fingerprints, functions like NEW.

    EXCELLENT = a couple of VERY light signs of use, maybe a little dust between elements, but nothing visible without a bright light shining through. No brassing. Functions perfectly.

    USER = brassing/marks on the body, no deep (deforming) dents or gouges. maybe light faint cleaning marks. Functions very well with no problems.

    UGLY = deep gouges in body, scratches that may affect image quality, possibly fungus, functioning. Maybe missing large sections of leatherette.

    FOR PARTS/AS-IS = not functioning, serious scratches/dents/marks. ANYTHING from a smoking environment.

    If anyone disagrees please let me know but I am SICK AND TIRED of buying things online described as MINT, MINT- or EXCELLENT++ only to find out they're more like USER or even UGLY in some cases. I'm at wits end. I think I'm going to happily pay the premium to buy used items from a store in future. Mods please move if I didn't post it in the right place
    Daniel,

    I agree, it is important with genuine. At same time it is difficult to adopt a specific standard to describe since all will likely not follow. I am also unsure that a used shop will be more fair.

    It is important in my opinion to be cautious when buying, to ask questions, study images of item, and... from regulars in forums, or on Ebay only from people with good ratings. All of which lends to gather an opinion to proceed or not.

    In my opinion a fair deal is one made in honesty. As a seller I am among the ones who genuinely meticulous describe any blemish and find importance to describe accurate. That is important as means for a fair deal. And if as seller I make sure buyer is happy, then I will have no complaints. Simple . The funny thing is that my two best condition items (80/1.9 and 45D) from my Mamiya condition remain for sale after having posted for sale for a couple of months... It is funny to point that perhaps people even at times doubt when described correct and in fine condition as I stated... that people buying also find difficult to trust what is fair and correct. Honesty works both ways, and I have also rejected selling when encountered buyers that appeared difficult such as doubting even when I stretched out and showed fair and honest. In any business that is good, fair and honest is important, and both ways.

    Happy to do business with anyone on such terms. Anywhere.

    Best regards,
    Anders

  45. #45
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I dont have a single problem with the list but there are two bosses here and they should set the rules. Not the mob.

    Quote Originally Posted by weinschela View Post
    Dear Vobluda, I am not sure what you mean and even qualified by adhering to the rules of the B/S forum (whose prime rule is caveat emptor), as an "emptor" I would have lots of "caveat" about buying anything if your view of condition varied dramatically from Daniel's list. What is it about the list that you disagree with?

  46. #46
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    My main problem was a Hasselblad 500CM where the user neglected to mention certain flaws (filthy focusing screen, WLF magnifier scratched to oblivion, leatherette shrinking - common on older Hasselblads). The seller accepted a return but the return post with insurance cost me $112. I then bought a 501CM kit for $350 more, locally and mint.

    I am going to look for more opportunities to buy local in future. Nothing beats inspecting in person before buying and having a chat with an interesting person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vobluda View Post
    I dont have a single problem with the list but there are two bosses here and they should set the rules. Not the mob.
    So the two bosses as Palpatine and Darth? Empire vs Rebel scum!

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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    Well, I am not sure that the prescribed condition would solve your problem as some people just dont want to understand and they are trying it.. On the other side some people are gear collectors and some people are using cameras as tools.. And sometimes those two worlds colide..

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    My main problem was a Hasselblad 500CM where the user neglected to mention certain flaws (filthy focusing screen, WLF magnifier scratched to oblivion, leatherette shrinking - common on older Hasselblads). The seller accepted a return but the return post with insurance cost me $112. I then bought a 501CM kit for $350 more, locally and mint.

    I am going to look for more opportunities to buy local in future. Nothing beats inspecting in person before buying and having a chat with an interesting person.



    So the two bosses as Palpatine and Darth? Empire vs Rebel scum!

  48. #48
    Senior Member thrice's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I certainly don't collect, I turn over cameras every 3-4 years. I use them all, and all tend to leave me in the same condition they arrived (except maybe the M9 with 1 or 2 marks), not sure what other people are doing to their cameras to wear them down so much.

  49. #49
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    I wonder whether there's a correlation between sellers whose only contact with the forum is to sell things, and the likelihood of misdescribed gear? I suspect there is.

    There are people on this forum who I've come to consider friends even though we've never spoken, and whose word I accept regarding something they had for sale. Anyone who doesn't meet that standard is someone I wouldn't buy anything from.

  50. #50
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Let's get some things straight RE: Condition

    For me on a personal level. I won't buy from anyone who is here just to sell. I buy from members that are here And participate in our forums. That is not a GetDPI rule that is just my personal preference. I work hard to be here and I want to support members who share here and spend there hard earned time here.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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