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Advice on a new Mac

Scott G

New member
Could you please sanity check my logic here (i have a tendency to out-think myself occassionally:D).

I currently use a 20" iMac, "late 2006 model" that is limited to 3GB RAM.
Specs:

2.16 Intel Core 2 Duo processor
2.5 GB RAM
I use 2 external 1 TB WD drives - one for data, one for backup

This system generally works OK, but it boggs down on large files, and the display is fairly marginal for photos, even when calibrated.

I am thinking about replacing it with a new Mac Mini, which I can configure with 4 GB RAM (an increase of 38%). Processor speed seems to be a wash, as is the graphics speed (I think). This will cost ~$800, most of which I can recoup by selling my iMac to a friend.

And perhaps the biggest advantage is to add a monitor better suited to editing photos (NEC, Lacie, Eizo) for another $850 - $1500. It would also make upgrading to the Mac Pro at some point less painful since I would already own a good monitor.

Does this make sense? I realize that it is probably an incremental improvement, but it is an improvement nonetheless correct? Or am I missing something....

Thanks for the help

Scott
 
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D

DougDolde

Guest
Not really. I don't think the Mini is powerful enough for image processing. The new iMac would be a better choice, but if you are thinking Mac Pro you'll probably be better off going to that now rather than later.
 

mwalker

Subscriber Member
If a laptop is a choice (workstation will always preform better) I bought a 2.4 dual core back in early 07. Since then I did the following upgrades. Larger internal harddrive OWC WD 350G, replaced my 4GB RAM with OWC 6GB kit. Bought a Lacie 324 monitor, and a Drobo external with 3- 1TB drives. It works very good for a laptop setup.

Lession learned
Get as much clock speed, RAM and HD as your computer will hold.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Photoshop is ALL about Ram. You want at least 6gb for large files. Fast hard drives 7200 and a scratch for photoshop. Might be time for a upgrade. Question is which do you prefer and we can build a fast setup for you. We have a lot of very experienced folks at this here. You want a rocket ship or a nice speed boat. LOL

The Mini maybe nice but not sure how much you can push the ram up and the hard drives
 

Scott G

New member
That's my dilemma. I feel like I have a canoe, but I want a speed boat that costs as much as a rowboat! Maybe it is time to bite the bullet and do it right, one time, and get the Mac Pro.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
See the Mac Mini might not be too bad but there are some potential issues and that is Ram and not sure you can substitute a 2gb chip for a 4gb to make 6gb total like we can do with a MacBook Pro or MacBook. or get in there and change the hard drive to a 7200. Actually the MacBook is a better chocie since i know you can change bothand also get a faster processor

Here is a Mini configured Mac mini Intel Core 2 Duo
Part Number: Z0FX
2.26GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x2GB
320GB Serial ATA Drive
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
User's Guide (English)
Accessory kit
Gift message: Add

MacBook

Now here is a Macbook at 1599 than some add ons coming. Rip out the hard drive and we will add 6gb of ram

MacBook, 13-inch, Aluminum
Part Number: MB467LL/A
2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x1GB
250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Backlit Keyboard (English) / User's Guide
Accessory kit
Gift message: Add

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other World Computing/8566DDR3S6GP/

6gb of ram is 379

This is also a nice new drive at 160 dollars. Now you hit the 2k mark. So depending on money and what you want

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Seagate/ST9500420AS/
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Scott:

My .02 is that in a few weeks Apple will be offering pretty decent deals on last generation "refurb" Mac Pro's, and you'll likely be able to snag a very good buy on one of those. The refurbs are usually the in-store demos or machines they've assembled out of remaining supply stock and carry the full warranty -- also eligible for and I recommend the 3-year Apple Care service plan. It won't be a speedboat at rowboat prices, but figure a good 15% - 25% off what the comparable level new machines are listed at.

Other option will be used Mac Pros from individuals wanting to upgrade. Here you have only a tail-light warranty, but will probably find 1st generation, 4-core Mac Pros at under $2000 -- and those machines have a lot of good life left in them and should outperform the new iMac or Mac mini pretty easily.

Cheers,
 

LJL

New member
There are some benchmark tests out on the new iMacs from MacWorld:

http://www.macworld.com/article/139350/2009/03/imacs_2009_benchmarks.html

I would still look to Lloyd Chambers' tests and reviews, as these MacWorld tests look to be using older apps (PS CS3, not CS4). That may or may not matter to some, so this becomes another set of data to review in helping make choices. (Also appears to have some reviews on other machines too.)

I agree with Jack on picking up either a refurb or possibly even a new old model that is being replaced. When I was in the Apple Store last week for my MBP battery and to look at the new 17" MBP, the guy told me that they had sold out their excess inventory on the older machines at huge discounts. I could have gotten a 17" MBP for $1,500 had I been watching, and built things up from there. So it is worth checking all sources if you are looking, and especially when models change, as we are seeing now.

LJ
 

robmac

Well-known member
Second on LLoyd Chamber's site - well worth the coin. His recommendations are bang on.

Refurbs from Apple are w/o question a nice way to go. It's all I ever buy. As said, they are a great deal at model inflection points.

You have a variety of choices between a nice Honda (Mini, iMac, laptop) or a Ferrari (Mac Pro). The former will need to be changed in 3-4 years (or earlier if you step up a lot in file size. etc). But you save money now and bank on buying more for less in x years. The latter you pay for now and expand/modify as you move fwd. Buying a lot more performance than you need now or will need in very near future makes little sense. That same RAM and fast drives you buy for X today and don't use will cost you 1/2 X in 2 years when you do need them. This also effects resale value in the future.

I think the new Mini, an iMac or Macbook Pro will be more than powerful enough for what you (and most folks) do. If you have an unlimited budget,a Pro would be sweet, but any of the new Minis, imacs or Macbook Pros (or last round refurbs) will easily outperform your existing machine -- especially if upgraded properly. The benefit of a Mini or laptop is that they are MUCH easier to sell/ship than a Mac Pro or iMac. More and more folks are also moving to laptops as their primary machine.

One thing to watch for with the new Macs is the screen. You will NOT want a gloss screen. Issues with reflections and some reported problems with getting good profiles. Sadly the new iMacs are all gloss. Another note is that iMacs, while they've increased in capacity, are not upgradable by the user for disk space and with RAM only to a 'modest' limit (4GB) vs a Macbook Pro (6GB).

CS is a HUGE memory pig and needs fast hard drives with LOTS of space for scratch use. The less RAM, the more disk space it sucks up and the slower the performance (hence the need for fast drives). Processor performance matters much less than does RAM and hard drive speed (7200 rpm or solid state being ideal). A 100% increase in RAM from 2 to 4GB for $150 will do EXPONENTIALLY more for you than the same money spent going from a 2.0 GHz processor to say a 2.26 Ghz one.

A great way to test your needs and confirm the above is to have the Activity Monitor (AM) utility up and running when editing photos. Watch the RAM utlization and disk activity as you edit files. You'll see the processor struggling far less (with CS) with large files as you'll see the disk activity (reads in & out) going nuts spiking like a heart attack victim. Also, check the space remaining on your scratch disk as you edit files. You'll be stunned as to just how much space CS will chew up as it's editing a file.

My buying recommendation?
-----
1. Take your budget and subtract from it the machine you want - basic model first.
2. Then hit places like OWC and subtract from that budget enough RAM to FILL the beast
3. Do the same, if not in machine, for a 7200 rpm drive replacement. Also, if you don't have one, at least one 7200 rpm backup drive or dual drives for a RAID (see Lloyd's site). Drives are DIRT cheap.
4. Now back out a monitor (if not an iMac or if wanted with a laptop) - a refurb 20" Cinema Display is great and can last you many computers.
5. At this point, if any money left, move up your machine to the highest CPU model you can until you run out of $$.

No need to repeat all of what Lloyd's excellent site does in much better detail, such as optimizing performance, periodically purging your history and cache, etc. Give it a read.

--------
Note: A GREAT way to speed things up on a modest machine is to go into System Preferences/Spotlight/Privacy and tell it to ignore your drives.

If you run AM you'll see something called 'mdimport' chewing up CPU performance when your editing large files. 'mdimport' is the program used by Spotlight to search your hard drive for file criteria, to make searching for files, with Spotlight, more effecient. On modest machines it can go nuts chewing up CPU time and file read/write access proccessors just when you need it the most because all the scratch disk activity by CS puts it into overdrive. You can always trigger it manually when you have down time.

Subscribe to Lloyd's site - some of the best $40 you'll ever spend.
 
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Robmac wrote:
One thing to watch for with the new Macs is the screen. You will NOT want a gloss screen. Issues with reflections and some reported problems with getting good profiles. Sadly the new iMacs are all gloss. Another note is that iMacs, while they've increased in capacity, are not upgradable by the user for disk space and with RAM only to a 'modest' limit (4GB) vs a Macbook Pro (6GB).


The new iMacs can take up to 8gb RAM.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Oops - you're absolutely correct. Now if only they got rid of that $%^ glossy screen, with the current round of upgrades and the cheap RAM and drive prices, it has the potential to be a nice PP machine
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I actually been thinking about selling my Mac Pro and my MBP 15 inch . Go with a 17 MBP 8gb of Ram running 2 SSD drives internally running Raid O. Also sell my 23inch display. Get a Drobo for the Laptop and run some external Sata running scratch. Yes I am nuts but keeping my 30 inch. This way I have a fairly powerful desktop on the 30 inch and a screamer for a laptop for the road. Right now I am in town but at a hotel and processing on the laptop. I have BIG files so this area could use the bump plus workshops and shows. Still digesting these thoughts.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Guy,
This makes NO sense to me at all.
You get a bigger system without the nice portability of the 15 at lower performance and without the expandability of the MacPro.
The 17 is not really disk performance limited, it is CPU and memory limited.
You would be spending a hell of a lot of money to enhance the area that is of LEAST value to a photographer, but hey, its your money. I'll spend mine on photo gear.
-bob
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Guy,
This makes NO sense to me at all.
You get a bigger system without the nice portability of the 15 at lower performance and without the expandability of the MacPro.

The 17 is not really disk performance limited, it is CPU and memory limited.

Oh wait, am I repeating something somebody already said?


:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

robmac

Well-known member
I'd have to say running C1 on MFDB files, the extra processors of the Pro, not to mention the expandability would be an absolute necessity. We mere DSLR mortals can get buy with tricked-out lesser machines, but...
 

LJL

New member
Bob & Jack,
I understand what you are saying to Guy, but in all honesty, the scenario he is describing is not far from what I am thinking about also. No doubt, a Mac Pro with all the extra RAM and storage options will kick *** further, but does nothing on the road. If you are doing a lot of "away from the office" work, the 17" MBP actually makes a lot of sense. You can load it with 8GB RAM. The top end processor, while not a quad core, will still hold its own for processing big files. It will never be as fast as even the average Mac Pro, but with some of the mods Guy is thinking about (dual internal SSD drives), plus doing stuff with eSATA externally for scratch/storage, plus a FW800 storage, it will do more than a decent job.

It really comes down to the portability component. The Mac Pro, no matter how fast and all does not do much for on the road work. The new matte screen on the 17" MBP is also way better than even I expected, thus allowing one to do a fair job with correction on the fly. Finals would best be done on a better monitor, but honestly, I am not sure that the 17" MBP monitor is giving up anything to even the older 30". (My choice would be the Eizo CG301 for the color critical work back at the office, but that is the cost of a couple of lenses!)

So, in Guy's defense (not that he ever needs that), his plan may be more practical for the kind of work he is doing, the traveling and needing something big enough and good enough to show clients or to work on. I completely understand the strategy. I am thinking about the same thing, and then later....like maybe next year, add a Mac Pro back into the mix if I really needed that much more horsepower.

That brings up some other points. Depending upon applications of choice, some are more CPU intensive than others. PS goes for RAM and scratch, but severely underutilizes all the CPU power. C1 takes advantage of the CPUs more than most things, and that does help processing a lot. Worth doing some trade-off tests, like prepping stuff quickly in C1 and then batching all of it while you go have dinner or take a nap ;-) I know that I cannot live without a laptop myself, but the 15" MBP, while easier to carry, still does not have enough screen, and it will only go to 6GB RAM, plus may be a struggle to fit stuff in....and it still has that ugly glossy screen. The new 17" MBP will allow a bit more RAM and space, has a gorgeous new matte screen that is bigger and photos look stunning on it, (text can get pretty teeny), and it has a seriously more powerful battery for extended work when needed. Those are significant differences in my book.

LJ
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
LJ:

Then my advice to both you and Guy is to wait for the 4-core 17" MBP which should be out soon...


:D,
 

LJL

New member
LJ:

Then my advice to both you and Guy is to wait for the 4-core 17" MBP which should be out soon...


:D,
Jack,
I heartily agree with your advice on this, as I do think that would help a huge amount. The drag here is that Apple just did the update rounds on essentially all their computers, so it may be another 9-12 months before we see that. (Boy, I really hope it comes sooner, but there is not much news on quad-core chips for the laptops from Apple yet.)

I think Apple's approach with the bigger incorporated battery is their first step in trying to figure out how to power those new chips for something longer than it takes to drink a cup of coffee.

So, I am going to just suck up the present slowness and sit tight a bit longer myself, but I have to say, that new matte screen on the 17" MBP is looking better than anything else I have seen yet, and that is a key step also. Now, if they get things worked out for a quad-core chip that will not suck your battery dry in minutes, nor set your desk(lap) on fire from its heat, we will be in heaven.....at least for a while :grin:

LJ

P.S. Also would like the SSD prices dropping a bunch, and somebody designed a compact dual SSD RAID0 drive thingie to drop right in easily, and put a dual eSATA port next to the FW800 port. Now we are getting sexy:thumbs:
 
D

DougDolde

Guest
A note about the battery. I use my MacBook Pro nearly all the time with an external EIZO and a ReadyNAS NV+ raid box. When the MacBook Pro is sitting on my desktop I have it plugged in to AC power but have the battery removed. This prevents the battery from going bad. The guys at the Apple Genius Bar recommend this in fact.

With the new models that have a non removable battery you can't do this. Bad for battery longevity.

As far as chips go, they will likely put the Nehalem in all Macs eventually. But i agree with LJ this won't happen that fast since the new models are so fresh.
 
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